372: Richard Waine – How to achieve financial success as a photographer

372: Richard Waine - How to achieve financial success as a photographer

 

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is a headshot photographer recommended by a previous guest, Alma Bruffy. She said when introducing him, "He is a financial guru. Really, he's helped me realize my spending budget and cash flow through spreadsheets he's created for photographers. He has a background in finance, and he's shared his experience and knowledge with many of us in Peter Hurley's headshot crew, where he serves as a mentor." I went off to do a little digging before sending an invite, and found a fantastic website, great headshot photography for a photographer based in Pennsylvania, USA. It was difficult to see if he was successful or not, just looking at the website, but I did some more searching, and I found he is a university graduate. He's worked most of his career in finance before finding his calling as a headshot photographer. I'm talking about Richard Waine of Richard Waine Photography, and I'm looking forward to learning more, and I'm rapt to have him with us now, Richard, welcome.

Richard Waine: Hello, Andrew. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Andrew Hellmich: It's my pleasure, and like I said, you have a fantastic website, but it's so difficult to get an idea of what business is like. How are things for you in business as a photographer?

Richard Waine: Actually, I love making headshots, and businesses is actually doing great, pandemic notwithstanding.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, so when you say business is great. Let's put aside the pandemic, and we can talk about prior to and what you expect coming out of it. But when you say business is great, how do you measure that business is great for you?

Richard Waine: So I have a great deal of different metrics that I consider, not just revenue, although revenue is and you'll probably agree with me, cash is king, revenue is king, and nothing tells you that you're doing all the right things, more than your income and your revenue stream. But I'm also looking at things like social proof and how I am perceived out in the industry and in my particular demographic, in my market, how people are thinking of me, what is my reputation? Those are important metrics as well.

Andrew Hellmich: So I mean, it's easy to measure revenue. Well, I guess, relatively easy. But how do you measure those other metrics?

Richard Waine: Well, social proof is certainly a very big, I guess we call it a key performance indicator, a KPI. And so the first place I'm going to go is to Google. I want to know what people are saying about me, and I'd like to look at the reviews people have left, and I do interact with both present, past, and hopefully future clients. So I'd love to hear where they're coming to me from. Where am I getting my referrals, what people think of me after the experience, what people think of the experience. All of that information actually gets fed back into my workflow and or my website, depending on what it is they're telling me. How can I make the experience better? What information can I provide that would maybe push them towards perhaps booking with me again, or referring one of their friends or colleagues.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So are you relying purely on online research to get that information, or are you using questionnaires and things like that directly with your clients?

Richard Waine: I don't actually use questionnaires outright. I'd sooner get on the telephone. Okay, I prefer an old school type of methodology. I do believe that the art of conversation seems to be dying, but I'm all too happy to dial a telephone and ask a few questions of my past clients. I will email with them to arrange a time, or maybe I'll just ask them outright, how was your experience, or I might even give them the link to the Google review and let them go for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, nice. So talking about the revenue side of things, what do you feel is a good revenue for a headshot photographer? Is that a number you can come up with?

Richard Waine: I think that really depends on where you're located, Andrew. So where I am in Pennsylvania, you're really not going to find top of the market. In other words, you cannot compare Lancaster, Pennsylvania to New York City. There's really no way, the cost of living is different. The revenue streams are different. The ability to diversify in some way, shape or form, the access to various resources is different. So perhaps 50,60, $70,000 a year where I live could be the equivalent of 100 and $150,000 in New York City. So how can you adequately measure that type of success? So what I would probably say is, determine what it is you as a photographer want to make per year and work backwards, right? Don't simply rely on the numbers to measure your success, but work backwards, This way when you do achieve those numbers, then you know, that's the break-even point. That's the place where you want to be. That's a nice sweet spot. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't always push the envelope and push the rates higher as you get better, as the demand for your work increases. You know, I still operate on the simple laws of supply and demand.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So based on what you've just said, and do I make the assumption then that, you know, you have a revenue of, say, $60,000.

Richard Waine: More, yes.

Andrew Hellmich: More than that?

Richard Waine: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so business is good. It's your full time job. You're making your sole income from headshot photography.

Richard Waine: That's correct. But I think there's a little bit of disclosure involved in that. I don't simply make headshots, and people go on their merry way. I have different arms to my business, diversified income stream. On the other hand, I am also consulting photographers on their businesses and helping them with their analytics and understanding what their numbers are telling them so that they can apply that information and form a strategic and tactical plan to improve them. So there's a consulting arm to my business. So there are multiple streams of income in there, but yes, photography in specifically headshot and portrait photography, is the majority of that income.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I want to come back to the finance side of things and the numbers in just a second, but talk to me about that transition you made from the finance industry to photography. How quick did that happen? And how did you make that transition?

Richard Waine: Oh, I can't remember the exact year, but let's call it eons ago. I had an ex-girlfriend who had a son who was a high school wrestler, and I said, gee, wouldn't it be great to have pictures of him wrestling for sentimental purposes? And so I went out and I bought a camera, and what I discovered very quickly was not only did my images stink, but I had no idea what I was doing. So I did what any rational human being would do. I took to the University of YouTube, and what I discovered was ,that I didn't have the right equipment, and I certainly had no idea what I was doing, like I said. So I gathered whatever pennies I had and went back to the drawing board. I picked up a DSLR, and I realized that, gee, the entry level DSLRs are not going to do what I want them to do, and the reason why is because, as a novice, I picked the most difficult environment in which to make a picture, and high school gymnasium with very, very low lighting, shooting a wrestling match which could be over within either 10 seconds or six minutes. It would take me six minutes just to turn the camera on. So, long story short is that I had no idea what I was doing, and so I sat down to more YouTube videos, and I happened to cross a video that Peter Hurley had done for Google Plus platform, and I was enamored. I mean, he was magnetic and energetic. He was absolutely hysterical. And I literally laughed my rear end off for about two hours. And I said, "Okay, I've worked in a professional atmosphere all my life. When you want to get better at something, there's always a conference. What conferences are around for photography?" So I found one in New York City. Now I'm originally from New York, and I've spent most of my career there, so this is familiar territory. I said, this is wonderful. I'll go to the conference. I'll have a great time. Maybe I'll learn something. Lo and behold, Peter was on the docket to do a panel or a demonstration, and once again, I laughed my rear end off for an hour and a half. I would just, but the images were absolutely beautiful. They were gorgeous images. The way in which he got those images, to watch him work on stage, it was really captivating. And so pretty much, that's where I made the command decision that if I'm going to pursue anything in photography, it's going to be headshot photography. And I had to meet Peter. I had rubbed elbows with the right people that day or that evening, because I ended up at a party that he was co-hosting with the F stoppers guys. And so I walked up to him after grabbing a drink, I introduced myself, and he said, "Hey, it's great to meet you." You know, very warm and inviting. He said, "Yeah, let me see your pictures." And I pulled out a few that I had on my cell phone, and without missing a beat. And this is a very well-known story at this point, but for those that don't know, without missing a beat, he looked at those pictures and said, "Man, you fucking suck." And I mean, it was a great chuckle. I mean, we had a great laugh at it. But I don't come from a place of, you know, failing. I don't like to fail. I will work and work and work until I'm successful. And so I said, "Look, if I'm that bad, teach me." I joined the first iteration of his coaching platform, which was called PH2 Pro it is now called the Headshot Crew, and I learned and I learned and I learned. I know that at least on one occasion, Peter has told me that I had a ridiculously vertical learning curve, but that's simply because I don't like to make the same mistake twice, and so I keep learning. And I'm always a student of the game. I will keep learning until the day I die. But that is kind of how I got into headshot photography. And at that point I said, "Okay, I don't come from a place of artistic background, that's really not in my brain. I'm an analyst. I've got a very methodical and technical type of brain mechanism. This is really a business, even though there's very much an artistic element in it for me." Now I know that there are going to be a lot of photographers out there that say, "Well, you know, I'm an artist." That's okay. I'm not, okay. I make artistic decisions, but I'm a businessman, and I run a business, so I have turned whatever Peter has taught me into a business that I contribute. My wife is a teacher, and I contribute to a household, and actually, as of today, my daughter just graduated from high school today, and in the fall, she will be starting University of Pittsburgh. So you know, if it weren't for headshot photography, we would not be making that possible.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. And I can say, you know, with hand on heart, your work is fantastic. I mean, I'm looking at your homepage right now, and the portraits, the headshots, are just gorgeous, beautifully well lit, great expressions, eyes popping. Yeah, you're a great photographer, let alone businessman, which I don't know a lot about yet, but tell me about making that transition. So you obviously got good quickly. Did you throw in the day job? Did you start booking headshot clients while you're still working the day job? Tell me about that transition.

Richard Waine: Right, I guess I didn't complete the question that you asked the first time. So the continuation to the story is that once I had met Peter, and I kind of fell in line with his coaching platform and the way he teaches, and I started to improve little by little. I was already part of the 2007-2008 I guess you call it the house of cards. Wall Street basically was decimated when the entire economy, and I think that was a global economy, went into the tank and working as an analyst, you're not writing tickets. In other words, you're not generating revenue for any brokerage firm that you work for. You're analyzing data and giving it off to somebody else who's going to generate that revenue. They pay you pretty well for it, but that doesn't mean that they won't get rid of you if you're overhead. And so I walked into work one day, and at least 10 of us were laid off just like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Richard Waine: And I even inquired. I said, "Was this for performance?" Because nobody was saying anything. They said, "Absolutely not. You do a great job. We just, we can't keep you on. There's not enough money to, you know, substantiate the overhead". Now, at that point, I probably could have gotten another position in New York, really. I mean, if you can't make it in New York, you can't make it anywhere. And almost, actually, it was the same day my girlfriend, this is, of course, flashing forward, my girlfriend, had said, "Well, why don't you come down to Pennsylvania and see if there's anything here for you." I said, "Okay, you know, I'll think about it." And I had already been coming down to Pennsylvania, which is about a three and a half hour drive from New York every other weekend. So I would come down to Pennsylvania on a Friday night, right after work. I would go back to New York on a Sunday, and then I would work all week, and then another week would go by, and then I would come back down again. And I did that for about a year, mind you. And when she said, come on down, I said, "Okay, I'll see what's around." I eventually ended up taking a position at a bank for a short while, and I had done enough for them. It was time for me to part ways with them, and my business had already ramped up. And so I said, this is a good opportunity for me to dive into what I really enjoy doing, following the passion and kind of escaping the banking and brokerage world. It's not to say that it's a bad place to be. Look banking and brokerage really did support me and my lifestyle for quite some time, but it was time to pursue a different challenge and something that I really was passionate about and still am. And so the transition was thus, I did not just walk out of the Wall Street one day and pick up a camera and start again from scratch. Business isn't just generated overnight. You don't just open your doors, hang a shingle out on the lawn and say, "I'm open for business", and people walk in. It's not like that. You have to put a lot of time and effort into it. And basically establishing a business in an area that you're unfamiliar with is even harder. Not only did my demographic shrink, the mindset has changed as well. And on top of that, people don't know who you are, and if you're not from the area originally, you're not part of the in crowd, they won't even think twice before they just turn their back on you. So it's taken some time for me to ingrain and ingratiate myself into the area and make some friends, become friendly with other business owners and network with people. And that takes a lot of time. So hold on to, to any position that you have until you ramp up business and then you can transition. You may be miserable in the process, but it's a wiser decision. I think. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I agree. I agree with that. So those first clients were they coming from? You know, these different business associations like BNI group and your networking, or from your professional life in the banking industry. Like, where did you get these first clients from?

Richard Waine: So yeah, some of my first clients were from my previous professional career. That was back in New York, but when I opened shop in Lancaster, I actually turned to Thumbtack. I don't know if you're familiar with Thumbtack, but it's kind of a sourcing website where you can find all sorts of different professionals. And so I don't know if they're other. It's kind of like maybe LinkedIn Pro Finder. I don't know if that's might be familiar to you?

Andrew Hellmich: Right. I've heard of thumbtack, but I don't think we have it here in Australia.

Richard Waine: Basically, you put in a bid for a job saying this is what you're willing to do for it. Thumbtack takes up a few dollars or credits, as they call them, and so I basically developed a name for myself doing that, plus I put my name out through Facebook groups, and I started to work with some of the local air quotes here, "models", just trying to develop a portfolio. I certainly opened my doors to friends and family to develop a portfolio. I just wanted people to experience the work. And even though the work was at a very different level than it is now, the experience still holds true. They had a great time, and they were able to give me what I really wanted, which was social proof.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Got it. Got it. So let's fast forward to today, or, you know, recent times, and I can see on your website, you know, your pricing is clear there. It says $70 per image, plus a $295 session fee. How do you come to those numbers?

Richard Waine: So, like I had mentioned earlier in the conversation, I believe there's a dollar figure attached to what it is that I would like to make each year. Okay? Just like if I were working any other nine to five type of job, how much would I expect company XYZ to pay for my services? So there's a dollar figure attached to that. We'll call it salary for whatever, whatever good that is, but we'll call that salary, on top of which I have overhead. You know, I run a studio. I have a lease on the studio space. I have electricity bills. I have internet. I have this. I have that. When I stack all of those numbers together, I have all of my operating expenses. And when I think about offsetting those operating expenses, at the end of the day, I need for my net operating income to be in the in the black. I don't want to see a red number. And if that number is in the black and I'm still able to pay myself that salary, well, that's kind of a really big deal. But the only way that I can substantiate those operating expenses if if I offset them with revenue. And so the revenue part comes into, how many sessions at the prices that I have chosen, can I do? Have I done? What is the pattern, you know, how many sessions have I done over the last quarter, last six months, last year. What is the seasonality of it all, right? These are key, important metrics that I'm looking at when I analyze my financials to create a budget for myself at the beginning of a year. And so when I think about what people have paid and what are they willing to pay, that's kind of how I'm getting my numbers at this point. And mind you, those numbers tend to go up. I've not been in a situation where my rates go down. Now, that's not to say that they won't, right? You have to kind of ebb and flow with the market. And I've always believed as a principle of economics, something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for, okay? And that's the truth. And you know, if you consider, you know, photographers in New York City for a headshot, it's not unconscionable for a session fee to be 1000 or $1,500 for a session. Never mind the per image, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Richard Waine: Maybe a $100 per image. That's very normal. Down here, I think around a $300 session fee is pretty, pretty good price for the value.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. Let me come back to your individual pricing in just a second, but just so I'm on the same page as you. Let's say you want to have a salary. Let's call it a salary of 70,000 US dollars you've got to take into account tax plus your overhead. So let's say that comes to, I don't know, 130,000 that's the revenue you need to bring in to take home your $70,000 salary. Is that what we're saying?

Richard Waine: That's correct. If I bring in $130,000 based on your figures, then I have essentially broken even. In other words, I've offset all of my expenses, salary being part of those expenses, and now my net operating income is actually zero. In other words, the business actually has not collected money, but I've been paid and the expenses have been paid.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so your salary is not a profit.

Richard Waine: No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't consider it that way at all. Remember, much like everybody else, I have bills, I have family to take care of. I've got to put food on the table, and now I've got kids going to college, that's a big deal, and that requires money, and so the way I look at what I'm doing, and perhaps not for tax purposes per se, but I'm still an employee of my own business, and I must be compensated for the work I do.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so let's say at the moment your salary is 70,000 but one of your kids is going to college, and if you want to make 80,000 or take home an $80,000 salary, then you have a couple of choices, either bring in more clients or up the pricing.

Richard Waine: Correct. Or there's a third option, which very few people actually talk about. It is reducing your overhead.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. If that's possible.

Richard Waine: Correct. And then there are ways, and you can be strategic about things. And one example I always bring up with some of my clients, and certainly with Headshot Crew members is ,take a look at Studio, for instance, which is always going to be one of your largest expenses. Your studio lease real estate is not cheap, and we're not saying that you've purchased, we're just saying leasing it, but that's always going to be one of your largest expenses. Well, if you're only doing, let's say, hypothetically, of course, two sessions per month. Does it really pay to lease that studio when you can just rent the space for a couple of hours each month, or whatever, have you, however that's structured, you'd probably save yourself a whole lot of money in doing so. Maybe you're shooting out of your house, and I know some people have an objection to doing that. I was one of those people. I did not want to have a studio in my own home, because at the time, I had young kids, and I don't really want to have strangers in my home with young kids, so I understand, but there are options, right? You can rent a studio. You can go into a shared studio arrangement with other photographers. You could, of course, shoot out of your home. There are ways around it. So if you are creative and strategic, you can probably reduce your expenses greater than you think,

Andrew Hellmich: Right. All right. Let me take you back then to that word 'profit'. So are we actually striving to make a profit, or are we striving to make a good salary as a headshot photographer?

Richard Waine: When I think of profit, I think of net operating income, and I think of cash. Cash is always king, because directly beneath net operating income are things like amortization, depreciation, tax expenses, all the below the line things.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry, Richard, hang up. So net operating income, that's the $70,000 figure I threw out, the salary. Is it?

Richard Waine: No. No, no. So if we go back to the $70,000 figure you threw out, okay, or, I think you changed it to 80s, or whatever have you, you've got salary, and then you've got your overhead, right? So we're going to bring both of those numbers together, and that's your total operating expenses.

Andrew Hellmich: Is tax included in that operating expenses?

Richard Waine: That depends on the tax that you're talking about. Are you talking about your income tax?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

Richard Waine: Okay, no, because..

Andrew Hellmich: That comes off the 70 or the 80.

Richard Waine: Right. Because the way taxes work here in the United States is that my business, itself does not pay an income tax, but because I am a sole proprietor, and the way I file my taxes, that salary, or I should say, all of the numbers, all of my figures from my business flow through my personal income tax, so it becomes personal income, so I would be taxed on the salary I actually bring home.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, okay, that'd be the similar, or that'd be the same for Australian photographers as well that are operating as a sole trader.

Richard Waine: Right. So once you have all of your total expenses, then you have your total revenue, and they offset each other. Okay, that's your net operating income.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay.

Richard Waine: Okay

Andrew Hellmich: All right. So another word for that would be total revenue.

Richard Waine: Right. That's correct.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, got it. I come on the same page. So you go back to your profit, right? What you saying about profit?

Richard Waine: Right. So when you consider your net operating income and all of the below the line things, at the end of the day is cash. How much has your business earned? Right? What is still in the bank account at the end of the day? Right? Because cash is cash. Now, I've always been a believer in this very point, and I don't think anything will ever actually change my mind, but one of the biggest key performance indicators for a business is how much cash do you have on hand? How healthy is your business? What's your liquidity, right? Because at the end of the day, and this is just all cards on the table, Andrew, you know, I have not been in my studio for a little more than two months because I could not function due to the COVID-19 pandemic. If my business had no cash and I had not paid myself appropriately, I probably would not have been able to weather that storm. I've asked for no aid from the government because I had discovered and I figured if they already had plenty of claimants for that money that needed it more than I did, let them take the money, but I was able to stay alive because my business is healthy, so it's a very big indicator of how healthy your business is. Cash is cash.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So that cash that's over and above your salary plus your expenses.

Richard Waine: So your salary becomes an expense for your business. Your salary is an expense of your business. So if you add your salary and your electric bill and your insurance bill and your studio lease, etc., those are all expenses, okay, if I have 10 sessions in a month, hypothetically, and I've got the $300 session fee, plus the per image fee, all of the monies that I collect from those sessions, those are revenue, and that revenue will offset all of the overhead, including salary. That is how we get to net operating income.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, well, let's round these figures out. Let's say our total expenses, including our salary, is 150,000 Okay, for a ballpark figure, are you saying, then, for the business to be profitable, we would need to have a higher revenue than $150,000 coming into the business.

Richard Waine: That's correct.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Richard Waine: That is correct.

Andrew Hellmich: And that's the part that is cash that sits in the bank or wherever it is, so you can live off that. In the case of a pandemic, for example.

Richard Waine: Right. And you could be strategic about how you deal with that cash, right? In some cases, it could be advisable to establish what I call a rainy day fund or a reserve, right? Because at the end of the day, Andrew, stuff always happens, and I'd rather play it safe than sorry. So you could take a portion of whatever's left in the bank after all of your expenses are paid, including your salary, and you could put it into a savings type of fund and build that up a nice reserve. But remember, part of your expenses could be establishing that fund or contributing to that fund. It could be contributing to your retirement funds. It could be contributing to all sorts of different disbursements. So you could easily lump those in with all of your expenses and just kind of make it a very normal payment.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, okay, so in your experience, when you're going in to help other photographers, do you see them operating their businesses like this, looking at these numbers this way?

Richard Waine: Typically, no.

Andrew Hellmich: That's what I expected.

Richard Waine: So what I have always found when it comes to photographers. And this is not a slight. It's simply that photographers and artists in general don't always have their eyes on the money. And I know this is a very broad stroke, very broad brush, almost stereotypical and generalized, but artists are not great business people. They're not normally thinking of the numbers, and so I don't like to be in a position of my income goes up one month and it goes down the next month and we're in this camel hump kind of year. I like to be very strategic about how my quarters and my months and my years play out, because I believe in us having a sustainable business. If your income goes up and it goes down, and it goes up and it goes down, you have no idea what's going to happen, and how can you possibly plan and budget accordingly?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So what then do you suggest the photographer does, let's say, walk in to help a photographer, and you're listening to the way they're running their business. And it's just, you know, they're advertising, they're getting shoots in. They're getting what they can from the clients, as far as sales are concerned. But there's no structure to it. Is the first thing to look at what they want to be taking home at the end of the day? Or do we look at the expenses first? Like, what do we look at first to build a successful business?

Richard Waine: The first thing that I would do, and it may be counterintuitive to some other approaches, but the first thing that I do is I sit down and I line item all the expenses first, right? Because the truth is, you can't understand the expenses without understanding the income. But there are things you can do about the income, right? There's sales and marketing, there's, you know, working on SEO. There are various avenues, right? There are plenty of suggestions on how to get out there and do that kind of thing. And if memory serves, you had Mike Schacht from 312 Elements and Headshot Hot Sauce. He's a fantastic resource. He's actually worked with me. He's done a fantastic job, and I literally tripled my income because of his knowledge. He and Mike Sansoni. So sales and marketing is a different avenue. So if you need that kind of help, they're probably the guys. But when we're talking about expenses, I would probably go down each one of those and see what's necessary. There's an old story about Sandy Weill and Jamie Dimon. Are you familiar with them, Andrew?

Andrew Hellmich: No, I'm not.

Richard Waine: Okay. Sandy Weill used to be the chief executive officer of Citigroup. In fact, he formed Citigroup, and Jamie Dimon, at one point was his right hand man, and at a time that they worked, I believe that American Express, I believe that's the place. But the story goes that when Sandy Weill walked into American Express, there was only so much that he could actually do with the income, so he line itemed and chopped expenses wherever he could, and he turned a family business into a profitable one by just realigning the expense streams and the income streams. So I do take sort of an approach to every business that way. Look at the expenses, what's necessary, what's not, what's a frivolous expense? What do you need? You know, why buy something if you don't need it, if you can't afford it, right? So the numbers have to add up. Truthfully, you cannot look at the entire picture without looking at both income and expenses, but expenses is where I start, then we can talk about the income.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, let me ask, because you said you got to look at what's necessary…

 
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Andrew Hellmich: Okay. If the listener wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?

Richard Waine: Well, my website's certainly the most convenient way. And that's www.richardwaine.com, that's Richard W-A-I-N-Ee.com, or they can email me at [email protected], they can send me smoke signals. They can find me on social media. I'm on Instagram, it's @richardwaine. On Facebook, Richard Waine Photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic.

Richard Waine: I'm pretty much on all the social platforms. I'm pretty easy to find, but if you just go to my website, get everything right there.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. I'll add links to all those in the show notes to accompany this interview. And look, Richard, it's been a real pleasure. It's been fun to talk numbers and get a better idea of what we should be looking at with our own businesses, and it has been enlightening. So thank you so much.

Richard Waine: Oh, it's my pleasure, Andrew, thank you for having me. I certainly hope the information was helpful, and even though complicated, I certainly hope it shed a little bit of light on stuff.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. What I'll do is, once this goes live, I'll get you added into our members Facebook group, and I'm sure you'll have a few extra questions thrown at you by members, so hopefully that'll be okay.

Richard Waine: Yeah, absolutely, I look forward to engaging conversation.