383: Sam and Michelle – How to change your photography pricing and mindset for business success

383: Sam and Michelle - How to change your photography pricing and mindset for business success

 

Andrew Hellmich: Hey, it's Andrew here from PhotoBizX. I have Sam Goodwin from Sam Goodwin horse portraits on the call, and the way this came about was Johl is going to be presenting a course on pricing for profit, and I asked him to share with me a couple of past clients of his that have actually implemented what he's going to be teaching, so I could talk to them and see firsthand what they've been able to implement and what improvements they've been able to make. So he gave me Sam's email address. I emailed Sam, and I said, "Look, can I talk to you about what you implemented after working with Johl?" And her reply was "Yes. Johl is a bloody legend, and his coaching program has changed my life." She went on to say that my average was around the $600 mark, so starting off at 545 for the small packages, and the prices that she's now running, she's a whisker off a $2,000 average for her portrait sessions, which is amazing. So Sam, welcome to the podcast.

Sam Goodwin: Thanks for having m, Andrew. It's really cool to be here.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So you reached out to Johl. I mean that in itself, like what was going on in your business, to actually reach out to Johl in the first place?

Sam Goodwin: Oh, I was just, I was stuck. I just stuck completely in this sort of funk, I suppose. I had all of the tools at my disposal, and I just didn't know how to, how to put them into play or make it work. So after hearing Johl's podcast with you and him, hearing him talk about mindset, and I know how powerful mindset is, you know that continually growing and working on yourself, that whole element really spoke to me in that podcast. I'm like, “Oh, I've got to hear what Johl has to say.” Because it was just, yeah. It just blew me away. I think I was sitting on the train. I was listening to it on the train, and yeah, I was just like, I was itching to, you know, get on the phone with him, or reach out to him. And I was yeah. So as soon as I did that, I just was like, and after we spoke in that first hour with that discovery call that he does with you, in even just in that one hour, the things that he spoke to me about, like, blew my mind. I was just blown away. And couldn't believe the mindset that I'd been carrying that felt normal to me. And I was just like, "Oh, that's just, it is what it is." And he's like, "No." So it was really unreal.

Andrew Hellmich: So what was the mindset issue? Like, did you not value your work? Did you feel that your clients didn't have enough money to spend what you wanted. Like, what was the issue? If there was one?

Sam Goodwin: So mine was, I had serious money baggage from my parents. My folks are really hard workers. You know, the real Aussie battler kind of people is what they are. So my entire childhood and life growing up with them, you know, they're scraping together money, you know, scraping to buy money for food, like we wore hand me downs, we shopped at Vinnies, that kind of stuff. Yet they still continued to, like they wanted to get better at their life, so they started up a few small businesses, and they all failed spectacularly, like, you know, so close, you know, they nearly sort of ended up bankrupted and so, really bad. And so by this stage, I was 16, and I'd had a part time job outside of school, so I went the opposite way. I just squirreled my money away, and, you know, I let it grow, and just kept putting money in, like, I'd hoard it like the squirrel, and I would then, you know, I'd see mama be like, "Oh, I've got no money." And I'm like, "Here, mom, here's a few $100 or whatever." And so that was, like, my framework of money. And then my folks, you know, they just kept making really bad financial decisions. And the thing that my mum kept telling me as I was growing up, she's like, "I'll get a stable job, work for government, you know, you don't ever need to worry about money." So that was the framework I took into growing my small business, which is, you know, it's a risky kind of move anyway, so I just kept carrying that baggage, and it just sort of snowballed there. And so I'd be doing really well. I get lots of shoots in and make some money, and then I would tank. And I was explaining this to Johl in this discovery call, and he's like, "You're self-sabotaging." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, you just keep, because you've, and when I explain my history is like "You're self-sabotaging because you're going back to that mindset of, it's all going to be taken away from me, and it's going to fall over on me", because of the framework I had from my folks seeing them, you know, just struggle and their businesses fail, so that, I think you got to give them credit. They tried like, six different small businesses, and they all tanked. So, oh, my God.

Andrew Hellmich: So in your head, did you have a feeling then maybe it was even subconsciously that you thought your business was set up to fail?

Sam Goodwin: Yes, so, and I didn't even sort of marry that, to even connect those dots at all. So I had, at the time, like, I've got a six year old and a four year old. My husband works away a month at a time, and we're renovating, and then I'm working three days in my HR job. So I kept saying, "Oh, it's just too hard. I've got too much to juggle. It's just I can't I can't do it." And Johl's like, "That's your limiting belief." So, you know, we talked through that, like, fair enough. There's definitely challenges with all of those things, but not to just throw my hands in the air and just go, I'm just not going to do it today sort of thing. So I've learned to rest rather than stop and just yeah, take a breath and just keep chipping away basically, is now my motto and messy action. That's the other one.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So how far along into your, I was gonna say, your relationship with Johl and working with him, did he, let's call it attack your price list.

Sam Goodwin: Was pretty early I think, maybe within the first because we talked about it, I had been using this price list originally in my first round of, I had done coaching with another coach, and I use this price list with great success. And then that was part of the reason why. Well, why isn't it working anymore? So when we got to that part of the course with Johl, he said, "Let's look at your prices." He said, "What kind of average do you want to make?" And at that point, I said, "I wanted to do $1,500 and I wanted to have one shoot a week, and then when Michael was away, I would maybe not do as many shoots. I'd maybe do only one shoot in a fortnight, because I needed to organize care and all that sort of stuff for the kids, so I could go and do what I needed to do." So it's probably in the maybe the third or fourth week from memory.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so your price is, because you're averaging 600 so did you get back to an older price list, or you're just giving people the cheaper options in the new price list?

Sam Goodwin: So I did my first sort of coaching I had ever done, endurance coaching back in must have been November 2017 I started that. The price list that came with that coaching, I just picked it up. Went okay, because I was brand new, new to everything. I'd never sold a thing in my life, except for horse feed when I worked in a produce agency. And you know, the price point for that's like, 20 bucks. So, you know, it's just easy. And then I went out and I made like, Oh God, I did, like, six or $7,000 in that first month using this price list. And then it just slowly whittled down to nothing. And then I bought the training in PhotoBizX for Nick Peel's online. What do you call it?

Andrew Hellmich: Master Class, yeah?

Sam Goodwin: Yep, that one. So I thought, oh, maybe I'll just use that. Because I was like, Oh, this is really hard. I don't know. You know, I just kept tanking. So okay, I'll use that, and then I would get maybe one sale in every five would be the top package, or top price point of that. What do you call it? Of those packages, so it was around that 1100 hallmark.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, like a three tier package system.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, the online thing, deliver images via the gallery, that sort of thing. But all of my sales would mostly come in at that that lower that five images for 545 or whatever.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you're working off that one. Then you started working with Johl. Then, so he asked you to bring out the old price list that you had.

Sam Goodwin: Well, he said to me, he's like, he gave me the formula to create my own price list. And I was like, I kept thinking back to this one that I'd already had, that I had used briefly with some success, and then, because I knew all of the work I doing around my mindset, I'm like, well, bugger it, I'll just pull this bad boy out again. So I did that. And yeah, the first sale I did using after all of my mindset work I'd been doing was $1,300.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So then you felt like you were back on track. But that was only one shoot. So then what happened? Like, after that?

Sam Goodwin: Yep, so after I nearly died inside that someone paid me $1,200 then just, like, internal squealing, Johl's like, "Good job. Just keep going. Just keep doing what you're doing." I just looked at it now as like, well, all of the tools that Johl gave me through the mindset stuff was like, the foundation was set. It's like, just go forth and be you and, you know, run with the price list. It is what it is. And I felt like a different person. So with this new price list, and my comfort level and my confidence was, you know, 90% and then my next sale was 1850.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So even better again.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, and then the next hour. I've got it all written like since the start of the year, since January. Where are they? Hang on, ah, the next sale was 3300 actually, yeah, 3200 and then the next one after that was 2400 or 2495, and then the next one was 740 so, yeah, that's my lowest package price is 740 and that's for just for five prints.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay.

Sam Goodwin: In the matte, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So still better than your previous lowest ones anyway.

Sam Goodwin: Definitely, definitely, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So with the price list that you showed Johl, did he make any adjustments to that one or he said that was good enough? It's gonna work as it is?

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, I didn't show him. I was just like, Well, I'm just gonna use this. I just kind of told him what I was doing.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, yeah.

Sam Goodwin: Doing this. He's like, "right, yeah", and yeah. So I just was like, I just went out and did it. I just was like, "Okay, I can do this. The baggage that I had been carrying around just kind of fell away."

Andrew Hellmich: So in your eyes, if you're talking to a photographer who was where you were at, do you think it's more about their mindset or having a price list that can get you the figures that you're after?

Sam Goodwin: Both. Both for sure. Yeah, for me, that was for me.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, right. So one compliments the other.

Sam Goodwin: I think so. Because if you're comfortable and happy. Personally, I would spend my window for spending on photography myself and my family is around that $2,000 mark. So for example, I had a sale the other week for $4,700 and I nearly kind of did the internal dyeing and squealing inside sort of thing.

Andrew Hellmich: So that's amazing. That's so good.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah. And then I followed that up with another two and a half thousand sale that evening. Look, I still feel in shock about that whole day. I made $7,000 in one day, and I think I couldn't have done that without having done the work on myself, as it was, with that $4,700 out, I threw in a few freebies just to try and help me process that one.

Andrew Hellmich: So what would Johl, do you think say about you giving away the freebies to the $4,700 sale?

Sam Goodwin: He said, "What other people spend, isn't any of your concern really." Yeah,

Andrew Hellmich: Just between you and me, I would be the same as you. I'd be throwing in some extras as well.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah. Well, they looked at me and because I was sort of adding it up as they were going. And I'm like, "Okay, well, you guys are at, you know, three and a half or whatever." And they're like, "Oh, okay." And then they wanted another five images, and they had three up. I was using Lightroom, and I had three images up, you know, how you compare the three? And they looked at me and they said, because they had four and they needed one more for this five print package. And I said, "Sam, which one do you think of these three?" And they were both three very different kind of images. And I'm like, "You know what? I'm just going to give you the three. It's okay, good. Don't worry about it." So I can't choose, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Fair enough. And what is it about your price? Because it sounds like the way the price is that you have now is set up there is room for the client to spend, you know, 4000 $5,000 they're not just locked into spending, you know, $1,100 max.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, that's right. So a single print is $185 and that also, even when I'm speaking with people, that gives me a level of comfort too, is it? And I'm okay with someone if they only want to buy two prints. Like I'm okay with that, because it feels like it's affordable for everyone, no matter, you know, their budget. And that's kind of in that one minute intro that I give to people when they inquire with me, I say, "Look, you know, prices start $185 and go up to two and a half thousand dollars with every price point in between. So you can choose whatever suits you and your budget, it's up to you. There's no obligation to purchase more than you want to, or whatever floats your boat, really." And that's pretty much a nutshell what I say to them, like, "Oh, okay, cool." And then once they've had the shoot, I hand them a do flyer that's got a bit more detail around prices, you know, like a collection start at 700 and or, you know, like a wall collection starts at 1295 or, you know, like the three different kind of price points. Then they they've got that. Then two weeks later, I come back to their home and I show them their images through a slideshow by their TV. And that's when I go through that detailed price list that I have my fine art magazine, and it's got it all laid out every single wall collection, and how much each of those costs, right down to a single print, or the portrait box or whatever.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. I love it. So you do have pricing on your website as well.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, just the guidelines, you know, like 80 from 185 bucks up to two and a half thousand dollars.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, and you are showing, like, wall collections in situ, like on the wall and, yeah, so you've got some guidelines there as far as pricing goes.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, just to give people an idea. So, you know, if I'm not even in their budget, that kind of will cancel them out to start sort of thing, as opposed to, you know, going through the motions for, you know, if they want $500 for every single photo I take. So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. Okay, so just talk me and the listener through that little part at the end, the sales part. So you've done the photo session, and do you do that on your property with the horses?

Sam Goodwin: No, I go to them, and then they also have the option, if they want to, they can float their horse to put them in the truck. I'll have a horse float and take them to a location such as the beach, which is where I was yesterday, for a photo shoot for a couple horses, and then about two weeks later, I'll go back to them, but generally I'm at people's properties,

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. So you do the photo session wherever that takes place. You come back to your place, your studio. How many images, roughly would you come back with for most sessions?

Sam Goodwin: So normally, depending on if I'm at the beach, I'll shoot on a low burst mode if they're riding, so that I get the right composition or the right confirmation, I suppose, or frame of each of the horses they're moving.

Andrew Hellmich: Because horse people are super fussy with the way their horses look.

Sam Goodwin: You don't want them to look like a donkey, don't. A few key rules, so I'll shoot on burst. But then when they're on the ground just doing that, more lifestyle kind of stuff with their horse, the more posed sort of thing, I just go back to single shot. And then if I have more than 150 photos from a photo shoot, I kind of die inside because I've got to cull that.

Andrew Hellmich: I thought you'd say a thousand.

Sam Goodwin: Oh, no. Oh, Jesus.

Andrew Hellmich: Even the shooting on low burst mode, so you're still coming away with a couple of 100.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, well, around that 400 mark for the low burst mode. So that's what I've got from yesterday. But yeah, if it's just generally, if they're not doing a riding portion, then it's around that 140 mark. So yeah, any more than that and I want to throw myself off the bridge.

Andrew Hellmich: Don't photograph weddings, Sam, I can tell.

Sam Goodwin: I'm no in no rush to cull 800 photos, so.

Andrew Hellmich: And don't listen to the interview with Two Mann Studios. I think they were shooting 15 or 20,000 images at a wedding.

Sam Goodwin: Oh, God, I hate editing, to be honest. Like I don't enjoy a single minute of it. So yeah, that first cull is like, yeah, it's not enjoyable.

Andrew Hellmich: So how many images do your clients see when you go back to their home?

Sam Goodwin: Maximum 40.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so you cut it right down, you're pretty ruthless.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, yeah. And that's how I really try to make sure I've got all the different kind of compositions and posing, like, making sure that's 40 very unique images as much as possible, so that it's hard for them to cull out or say no to.

Andrew Hellmich: And then, so when you get to their house, you said you're setting up on their TV. You're using your laptop, I guess a HDMI cable?

Sam Goodwin: Yep.

Andrew Hellmich: Is this with the slide show with music, or it's just images?

Sam Goodwin: With music as well. So I just create that in what do you call it? iMovie, yeah, iMovie.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, iMovie. So you run through the slideshow with music, and then is it into Lightroom or into ProSelect?

Sam Goodwin: I do Lightroom, so I had ProSelect, and just didn't blow my hair back at all. I just didn't like it. So.

Andrew Hellmich: So you went back to Lightroom, which you know, and enjoy.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And what are you asking your clients to do? They need to ask them to pick their favorites or get rid of the ones they don't like.

Sam Goodwin: So I say, yes, no, maybe. And we start Yes. One staff yes. No for two. Maybe for three. And I say to them, "If you give it a no, if you say no, that's your first instinct is no, you're not really going to move off No, so trust your gut." And I said, "Well, look at the maybe pile." And it's like, when they hear that, they go, "Oh", you can see them visibly relaxed. It's quite I don't know what the psychology is there, but anyway, they're like, "Oh, okay, cool. That's really good." And then we end up, on average, with about 15 images in the yes pile, and then about six to 10 in the maybe pile.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay. And then, is that the time then your price list comes out?

Sam Goodwin: Yes, and that's when I say, okay, cool, see, this is what you've got in your yes pile. Now it depends what you want to do with those images. Did you want to put something on the wall, or you want something for the coffee table? And I'll have to give credit to Kate from Avedon for that little line, who you've interviewed on the podcast before.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Sam Goodwin: You know, wall or the coffee table, choose your own adventure kind of thing. And I'll always create some kind of wall art. We call it mock layout of their images too, using Fundy. So I throw them up as well for them. So they go, "Oh, okay, cool."

Andrew Hellmich: Do they see that straight after the slideshow?

Sam Goodwin: No, I show that to them and I go, "Well, I've created a mock up for you already, just to give you an idea", because sometimes they'll tell me if they want something for the wall, or if that, but not always. So I just create something for the wall, because that's what I love. I love stuff on the wall.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So you'll mock that up in Fundy, and you also mock up an album in Fundy as well, do you?

Sam Goodwin: No, I don't do the album in Fundy, just the wall stuff, because that's I just love the wall stuff for the wall and so go to my faves.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, great. And then when you're showing them the price list, Sam, is that a printed PDF, or is it on your laptop?

Sam Goodwin: It's on my laptop. I have thought about having it printed because it's like an A4 magazine layout, but I just haven't done it yet, and it doesn't seem to be causing any, you know, blockages or anything like that. Because people are like, we go through they go, "Can you go back to this page? Or can you show me that again?" So yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And so you're doing this now. Are you talking to them, using the laptop as the primary sort of interface, not the TV anymore?

Sam Goodwin: No, I send it all through the TV still. So I sit, usually, I must get a long at HDMI cable, okay, well, because I'm basically chained to the to the TV, like squatting underneath it. So, yeah, I just do it all through there. And then they can see it on the, you know, that big TV.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So they're on the lounge, you're on the floor, and you're scrolling, okay? And then are you starting with the largest collection, or you're just showing the collections that you've designed? How do you work that part?

Sam Goodwin: So the start of the I just go straight to the magazine. I say, "This has got all the prices and the sizes." So I start with the most expensive wall collections first. So that's that 2495 mark. And there's about four different wall collections that are at 2495, and then there's a smaller size version of the same collection that's 1850. So I started the big ones, and then I work my way down, and we go to the magazine, or through the magazine that way to the smallest price point.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay, so for the listener, you're talking about what you call the Draft Horse Collection,

Sam Goodwin: Oh yes.

Andrew Hellmich: So I've got it here in front of me. This is a collection of one looks like 2-3-4-5-6, so seven canvases or seven images. Are they canvases?

Sam Goodwin: Either - Or. I give them the choice between canvas, timber or framed.

Andrew Hellmich: And same price, doesn't matter, they get to choose.

Sam Goodwin: Pretty much.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And then you'll have different combinations. So you're looking at wall art collection, so it's multiple images that go together as one piece.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, and I've sold that one, that Draft Horse Collection, I call it. That's the one I sell the most of.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that right?

Sam Goodwin: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So is that the only one you're showing using Fundy?

Sam Goodwin: No, I showed that one. I show about three at the 2495 mark, and then I'll say, "And you could get this collection comes in a smaller size", depending on the size of the wall they got going on for 1850 and then, yeah, and that's about all I'll show that I'll create.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, right. And so then at that stage, then do the clients sort of feel like they're picking between those two?

Sam Goodwin: Yeah. Because some are really clear, like, Oh, the other week I had a family they wanted, they went, "Oh, no, we don't have the space." And I'm like, "Okay, all right, so what are you thinking?" And like, "Can you just go back through each of the pages of the magazine." And I'm like, "Yep," like, "Oh, we like this one here. Let's, how big is that one?" I pull out the tape measure, and I go, "This is what it's going to look like. You could put this one look really well there on this wall behind you, or whatever. And that one might be too big for here, so maybe this is a better fit".

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so you're not pushing something you want to sell. You're trying to find the right solution for the client.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, because, you know, I don't like it done to me. So you find what works for me without being, you know, a what's it, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: I've got you.

Sam Goodwin: Try not to swear.

Andrew Hellmich: So let's say you're at my house, and we've done a photo session, and I love the draft horse collection. I've picked the one that I like. I'm guessing the next thing is, I pick the images for that. Then what happens? Like, what's the transition to keep selling?

Sam Goodwin: Oh, yes. So then I'll actually create that. I'll go into Fundy, and I'll put "Okay, so then we choose the images that you love the most, and then we'll go there", and then they'll go, "Oh, okay, cool." And then they might want something. They might want, just want five prints, which is a family order the other day to send to their family down south. So we picked out their five out of the yes pile. They had about 12 photos, so they picked out another five, and that was for a print package, you know, the five print package. And that's, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so it's all pretty organic the way it sort of moves through.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, yes. I'm like whatever floats your boat the most. You want something that goes on the wall, or you want something that's just you can hang on one frame over there. Easy, done. You tell me what you like the most out of your yes pile. And then what I have been saying to people too, is, if you spend over $1,500 you'll get a social media sharing set of every single photo I've taken. So in this, you know, like the 30 to 40 images, you'll get all of them.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And say, what are they? Are they, like, a 2000 pixel wide, watermarked or?

Sam Goodwin: No, I don't watermark them. I just, yeah, I'm just like, "Here you go. Here's the social media set." Away they go.

Andrew Hellmich: Are they around 2000 pixels wide or they smaller?

Sam Goodwin: They're about, I don't know. I think they're in that 800 kilobytes. Is that the right word?

Andrew Hellmich: Oh so pretty small.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, they're pretty small, just for, you know, sharing on social media.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay. And so that everyone would love that. I imagine soon as you say that.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, I have said to people, I said, "When you spend over $1,500 you'll get every", and I've had, oh gosh, probably three out of five people go, "Oh, well, definitely". So, and then they definitely spend over $1,500.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, to get all the images. Do many people, or many of your clients, take the album option?

Sam Goodwin: I've only had one do an album since January.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, and it's August now, so most people are getting wall art.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, mostly, and I think that's because I like it. I mean, I've got it all around my house like, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. And what's the answer when someone says, "Sam, we just really want all the photos of digital files."

Sam Goodwin: Okay. Well, yep, you just gotta, if you want to buy anything, you'll get all of the social media sharing set when you spend over $1,500.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you're going to include the wall art, and they can have the digital file if they spend over 1500.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, pretty much. Haven't even been asked that question yet.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, really. Okay.

Sam Goodwin: No, no. And horse people are notoriously tight ass, so oops, I saw sorry.

Andrew Hellmich: I don't know why, though, because they spend a fortune on their horses and events and competition everything else.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, I had one the other day. She was tough, and she ended up just, you know, doing the 740 image package. And I was like, shit. That's all, right, I won't complain. So, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: I bet she's got a $10,000 horse.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, about that, probably a bit more.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Sam Goodwin: You know, it's just each whatever floats their boat and makes them happy. I'm easy.

Andrew Hellmich: Fair enough, and do many of your clients ask about all the images that you've deleted?

Sam Goodwin: None have asked me.

Andrew Hellmich: Never

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, none yet.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so what would you say? Hey, Sam, can I get a look at the images that you deleted?

Sam Goodwin: One of the things that I do in a session is, and I was probably not everyone's style or cup of tea, but I know when I've got a good shot in camera, and I will show them, I'll show them the back of the camera. And they're like, "Oh, yeah, look at that." So throughout the session, I might do three or four times I might go, "Oh, check this out." And they're like, "Oh, that's amazing." So that's my version of a sneak peek. So.

Andrew Hellmich: So whatever's deleted is deleted. They don't exist anymore as far as the client's concerned,

Sam Goodwin: Doesn't even come up.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, right.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So where to from here? For you, like, are you happy with where you are now? Do you want to make more money down the track?

Sam Goodwin: So I started out with Johl saying I wanted to have a $1,500 sales average. Because that was like, I was like, "Yes, that's what I want". And now I'm, at August, and now I want to go. I've now made it. I've got a sticky note on my cookbook right in front of me here that says '$2,000 sales average.' So that's my next..

Andrew Hellmich: New aim.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: So for you to get to the next step, is it more about rigging your price list? Is it more mindset, or is the mindset all good now? It's just pricing?

Sam Goodwin: I think my mindsets in a pretty good place. It's always going to need, you know, it's like kind of maintenance, is the way I look at it now. And I'm actually debating whether I increase that price point of that draft horse collection up to maybe that 2895 mark maybe, because I keep selling it at that 2495, and it's, you know, so I'm thinking maybe that's something I could do there.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you think about doing that, so do you call Johl and say, "Hey, Johl", and say, "Hey, Joe What do you think about this?" Or do you just, do you try it out?

Sam Goodwin: I'll just give it a go, test and measure, I suppose.

Andrew Hellmich: So you know what works now?

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, I feel very comfortable with it, and like at this shoot yesterday, it was an unexpected I had another family attached to the girl that had the shoot booked in with her horse. She had brought another family along that had sold her old horse too, who she was very attached to this old horse still, and it was a miscommunication. And she said, "Oh, the other family are bringing Winston." I'm like, "Okay, cool, that's no worries. So you want photos of with you and Winston and your new horse?" And she's like, "Yes." "Okay, great." So anyway, this other family rocks up, and there's the daughter, the daughter riding the old horse, Winston. And like, "Oh, I thought it was just you and Winston and your new horse, and they were just being the taxi, basically." So anyway, and it's lucky on at this point, you know, I'm comfortable with my pricing and all of that sort of stuff. And the mum was there, and I said to her, I said, "Look, I'm sorry. I kind of wasn't prepared for you. Otherwise I would have given a you know, all of my the spiel, everything you know, the contract, the lot", so, and I just said to her, "So this is where prices start $185 and go up to two and a half". Went through my spiel. She's like, "Okay, yep, no worries." And I said, there's no obligation to purchase. Only buy what you love. And I explained everything how it works, and she's like, "Oh, well, you might just end up with two sessions out of this unexpectedly."

Andrew Hellmich: So you did, you did two shoots.

Sam Goodwin: I did two shoots in an yeah, and then we sort of, you know, merged it so. It sounded like that very close, and I didn't quite get this, and the she's probably in her 20s, so this girl had won the shoot. She'd won a gift voucher, and because we'd done the consult, you know, on the phone and all that sort of stuff. And her mum rocked up halfway through the photo shoot and we were chatting about it, and she's like, "Oh, Amy's terrible at communication." I'm like, "Oh, okay, no worries. That's all right, doesn't matter." So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So it all worked out.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So will you go to both their houses then for separate sales sessions?

Sam Goodwin: I will now, yeah, because it doesn't make sense to, because they're two completely separate families.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. Okay, a couple of quick things to finish off. When do you organize to go back to the client's home? Is that when you're setting up the shoot, or is it at the shoot?

Sam Goodwin: So the day after or the evening, if I'm really organized, I'll go through and I send them a referral gift voucher. That's the program that I bought from Cara Marie. Is it?

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, yeah, yep.

Sam Goodwin: The, you know, book her friends, that program. So I send them that with a gift voucher that they if they have anyone else book in, they'll get a little bit extra off their artwork order.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that working?

Sam Goodwin: Yeah, so far.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah. It's really pulling people in. And then I send them an Acuity in that same email with the referral gift voucher, I send them a link to an Acuity calendar to go in and book their cinematic reveal two weeks later, roughly. And that's how they do it. It's all automated.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, so they book it all automated. Yeah, nice.

Sam Goodwin: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Okay, and let me just take it back then to the mindset things, because that sounds like that's integral to your success.

Sam Goodwin: Definitely.

Andrew Hellmich: How does Johl fix? Fix for want of a better term, fix your mindset, like, is it just, is it conversations? Does he get you to do exercises? How does he change the way you think about money.

Sam Goodwin: So it's all of the, what do we do? So it's like the limiting beliefs that I have around things, oh my gosh, so much has happened since I do his training. He's gonna be bummed if I stuff this up.

Andrew Hellmich: Even just generally, because I'm curious, like, are you doing quizzes and puzzles and reading, or is it just him talking to you and asking you questions, you answering them.

Sam Goodwin: So every week, so each week, there's the theme of, you know, what we're going to learn on, you know, work through this week. And there's a workbook that you go through. And then there's the daily like, you know, the three things that I'm grateful for, you know, going through that the morning routine is really, really powerful, too, that he has, that he teaches you. So all that stuff, you know, being grateful and, oh yeah, it's just, it's like the whole thing for me, my mindset was just, you know, I just kept self-sabotaging, and I didn't even know I was doing that. Like it just was, I was just in a rut, you know, in my lane, head down but not going nowhere.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, do you feel differently about money yourself now?

Sam Goodwin: I think not so much, because I've always been a bit of a saver. I think it was more around my confidence, I think, and just giving me the tools to go, yes, you've got all of these challenges in your life, but if you go through and you go, okay, no worries. And that's the thing that I loved about Johl's his approach to everything is like, "Okay, no worries, just, you know, just get on with it", which suits my personality as well. So I'm very much a yeah, 'no worries, you'll be right.'

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. I love your approach. I haven't really talked about your photography, but your photography is beautiful too. Like, it's no wonder you're..

Sam Goodwin: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: Getting the kind of money you are if you have the relationships that you do with your clients, your work's amazing. Sam, thanks so much for coming on and sharing that. I know the list is going to find it super helpful, and it's going to complement the training that Johl's putting together as well beautifully.

Sam Goodwin: I hope so. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's good stuff. And the pricing is really, you know, if you work out what you want to get to and my wanted 1500 average, and I was managed to do it within, gosh, less than six months, so.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. Where's the best place for the listener to check out more of your work?

Sam Goodwin: So I'm not great on Instagram, but Facebook is Sam Goodwin Horse Portraits,

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And your website as well is samgoodwinhorseportraits.com.

Sam Goodwin: That's right, cool.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll add links to those in the show notes. Sam, you're awesome. Thank you so much.

Sam Goodwin: Thank you. Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Alrighty, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Sam Goodwin, Sam, if you're listening again, thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything you did. You really are an inspiration. I absolutely love the work that you do, and I always love your bubbly, happy personality. It's so good to talk to you and to have you on the show. So again, Sam, thank you so much. For you the listener, I hope you did get a ton from what Sam had to share. We are going to jump into the second interview for today's episode with Michelle Fey in just a second. Look, I didn't mention earlier, but if you do want to learn more about the photography pricing masterclass, you can head over to photobizx.com/pricing. You can get full access to the course, the training with Johl Dunn. You'll get invited to join the members group for those course participants, of which there are a heap of photographers in there already. The cost of the photography pricing masterclass is 97 US dollars that is for free and premium members, but if you are a premium member, you'll also have included in that 97 US dollar price a one on one call with Johl to go over your specific pricing, and he's going to help you fine tune that so you can implement exactly what you learn in the course. Now, if you are a free listener to the podcast, you can also have access to those one on one calls with Johl, but they will cost you an additional 40 US dollars, so you'll still get the full course content. You'll get access to the Facebook group for course participants, but you will need to pay a little bit extra to have that one on one call with Johl if you need it. All the details are at photobizx.com/pricing. Okay, let's get into the second half of today's episode with Michelle Fey. Here's that recording now.

Andrew Hellmich: I've got Michelle Fey from Michelle Fey Photography, who is a New Zealand based newborn photographer, baby and newborn photographer on the line. She has implemented Johl's pricing formula, and from what I'm told, she was capping her price or happy capping her price list, or herself at $1,200 and now she's generating 2500 or more frequently. And Johl tells me, "I'm yet to confirm this with Michelle, that she's going to be reviewing that as well, and has potential to make so much more." So Michelle, welcome to the podcast. Welcome to this audio recording. How are you?

Michelle Fey: Good. Thank you. How are you?

Andrew Hellmich: Good, Good. How, how long have you been working with Johl?

Michelle Fey: Um, I started not that long ago, really, about October.

Andrew Hellmich: So three months.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, about that.

Andrew Hellmich: When you first started consulting with Johl, you know, what was the first thing like, was it your price list? Was it your mark? What did he look at? What did he want to go in and assess and change?

Michelle Fey: Um, a lot of it was my mindset. I knew what I needed to do, but I didn't really know how to do it, and then had very much limiting beliefs that anyone could or would pay anything too much for my work.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I've, I've had a look at your website. Your work is gorgeous. So what I mean? What made you second guess yourself, because I imagine that your, your photography hasn't changed much in the last three months, but your pricing and your profit has.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, the photography hasn't changed too much in that last three months, but definitely, the pricing has over doubled. And everyone, I've found everyone has the mindset that they need all the digitals. And to be able to get all the digitals from me now you have to spend over two and a half thousand so everyone, I think, by two clients out of the last 10, have spent over two and a half thousand dollars.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you're saying that clients still do want all the digitals, but you've just structured your prices in a way that they have to spend more to get all the digitals.

Michelle Fey: That's right, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: When do clients first learn about the fact they need to spend that much to get the digitals?

Michelle Fey: I do it before they book. I want them to understand. Before they book, they come in visit me in my studio, and I, we go through the process of how the shoot works. So they get to meet me. They get to build confidence in me, and get to know me and trust me. And we go through all the pricing and how everything works then. So then they've got plenty of time to think about whether that fit, fits in their budget. And sometimes they'll say, "Oh yeah, I'll just probably take the five." And that's fine, because I know as soon as they see the photos, they're not going to just take five.

Andrew Hellmich: I want to dive into that a little bit deeper in just a second, but just to be clear, is it only newborns that you're photographing?

Michelle Fey: No, um, I've just done maternity, and I do the odd family, because obviously newborns grow up and people want to stay with me because they like me, so I'll go over there.

Andrew Hellmich: So nice

Michelle Fey: Knowing more families and things like that as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, is it the same price list for no matter what genre you're shooting.

Michelle Fey: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so that's easy. So someone comes in via an inquiry or referral or some kind of promotion or marketing campaign that you're running. Does every single client come to you for a face to face meeting before the shoot?

Michelle Fey: Yes, I talk to them on the phone first, but because I want them to see the quality of the products, and touch the quality of the products. I give them a rough guide of about how much they may spend, see how they go with that. And then before they book I do want them to come in, because I want them to see what I have to offer before they book in. Then there's no pressure on them, on their budget, and then they, it's up to them whether they want that quality or whether they don't want that quality.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so do some couples, some women, some families, they come to you for that appointment and then not go ahead because it is too expensive.

Michelle Fey: Out of the last kin of how I've changed it now that have gone to book, um, come to see me. I've had one, not book me.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, but they, they had, is that that was a she, let's call her. She. Did she have an idea of the pricing from the phone call?

Michelle Fey: She did. But I think she realized that she would want everything, and that was outside her budget.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So she came in thinking, I'm still going to want just the minimum order. She saw what you do and went, "Okay, this is going to cost me more than what I'm thinking".

Michelle Fey: Yeah, yeah. And she goes, "Oh, let me discuss it with my partner", and she pretty much ghosted me from that point, which is fine, because she's obviously not my client.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, exactly. That's right. I mean, it would have been a waste of time for you to go through the whole photography session and then not have an order.

Michelle Fey: Exactly, which is why I want them to come in and really get to know and ask all the difficult questions, see the prices of everything that is there and on the wall, and understand how much it is, and then go from there. And if they don't want it, that's fine.

Andrew Hellmich: What's your most popular product?

Michelle Fey: Keepsake boxes, seven by 10 portraits, a lot of them.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so seven by 10 portraits in mattes, inside a box.

Michelle Fey: And a box and acrylic with an acrylic face on it so they can see them.

Andrew Hellmich: That's a nice, okay, right. Perfect. All right. We'll talk a bit more about products in a second. But you, you said there that when Johl first came into your business, or you started working with Johl, it was your mindset. So what changed? Like, I know you said that your price list has changed. What has changed about your mindset?

Michelle Fey: I don't have those limiting beliefs anymore. With the process that you go through as you go through all the steps in Johl's course, and you look at each thing individually, and then it shows you how to set goals, how to make sure you reach your goal. Well, reach your goals if you want to reach your goals, if you're prepared to work hard. And it just goes through the mindset and limiting beliefs and how to get rid of those limiting beliefs. And the morning routine is amazing.

Andrew Hellmich: What's the morning routine?

Michelle Fey: So for me, my morning routine is I get up, I get on the bike for about 40 or 50 minutes, and then I come down and sit at my computer and I write down three things that I'm grateful for, and three things that would make the day great, and three things that I want to get done. And then I also meditate every day as well.

Andrew Hellmich: No, okay, so is this all part of Johl's training?

Michelle Fey: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, cool. I didn't know that. That's awesome. Okay.

Michelle Fey: It's amazing. If I it's just changed how I think. And it always, I always get up. Well, I get up and I'm I might be dragging my heels a bit to get to the bike, but after I've been on the bike for 10 minutes, I'm invigorated, I'm enthusiastic, and I want to go to work, and I sit down, and if I don't write that stuff down, I get lost in the day, and I get way laid by Facebook, whatever it is else that's on without and I lose focus.

Andrew Hellmich: I totally get that, and I totally can relate to you about the cycling part, because I'm a mad, keen cyclist, so I know what you mean.

Michelle Fey: Mine's just in the corner of my lounge, though,

Andrew Hellmich: Still good. You're still cycling. So when, when Johl suggested that you raise your prices, and we'll get into the actual price list structure in a second. What did you feel?

Michelle Fey: Apprehensive but I wanted to do that anyway, but I just didn't know how and I needed to be baby steps walk through it.

Andrew Hellmich: What did you think clients would say when you raised your prices, almost doubled your prices?

Michelle Fey: I was kind of scared, but wanted to get rid of that limiting belief that if they want it, they'll happily pay for it because it is actually worth it.

Andrew Hellmich: So did you go into this thinking, You know what I if I double my prices, I can still shoot half as many portrait sessions and make the same amount of money? Or were you were you still going into this expecting to shoot as many clients as you are now? Or you were and just make double?

Michelle Fey: Um, make double.

Andrew Hellmich: Great.

Michelle Fey: I'll probably shoot, the thing is, I'm just seem to be getting more and more clients, and I'm not really doing that much marketing.

Andrew Hellmich: I can see you're looking over your shoulder at your marketing calendar. Is that right?

Michelle Fey: Yeah, yeah, I've got a whole marketing calendar up there. And yes, I do need to do some marketing very soon, but it's just still coming in. I need a I need a break too. So that's why I'm not pushing it too much.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. It sounds your business sounds amazing. Okay, so you said that you talk to your clients before they come in for, first of all, for a pre shoot consultation, and also before the shoot. On your price list, is there any indication of pricing? Sorry, on your website, any indication of pricing?

Michelle Fey: Not at the moment, that's a work in my pool website as a work in progress, but we've got plans of how that we're going to change it to make it a whole bunch better than what it is now.

Andrew Hellmich: But will you have pricing on there?

Michelle Fey: The starting price.

Andrew Hellmich: Starting price, okay, I think I did see that on when I had a look. But okay, so starting price is okay, but not the full price list.

Michelle Fey: No, not the full prices. So wall art will start from, so then people kind of get an idea. Keepsake boxes start from and follows on. The keepsake boxes.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, can you touch on or share what your old price list looked like or what it was. As far as pricing products, you know what people paid for?

Michelle Fey: I feel really, yeah, sure I can.

Andrew Hellmich: What were you going to say, you feel what?

Michelle Fey: I feel really self-conscious that I can't believe that I actually did all that work and got paid peanuts for it. Really.

Andrew Hellmich: What was it?

Michelle Fey: So for them to come in, the way I used to do it is they had to book for, they booked the shoot and paid $650 because that was the lowest amount that I wanted to work for. And they got five, five by seven images from of their choice from that shoot. Then when they came back from the viewing, they could upgrade to 15 for $300 or $600 for up to 20 or 22.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so this is where the maximum someone could spend was $1,250.

Michelle Fey: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: That was it. That was the limit.

Michelle Fey: That was the limit. I was limiting myself. And I kind of, I knew I had to change it, but I didn't know how.

Andrew Hellmich: For your sessions. How long does the session take? What goes into a session for you?

Michelle Fey: Um, a newborn session. So it would take between two and a half or three to three and a half hours.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, and then you do your editing. I guess you're calling your post processing and to get everything ready. So do you were you showing finished, edited?

Michelle Fey: I was showing finished artwork.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so you were editing up to how many images?

Michelle Fey: 20 to 25 images every time.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so that's that part of your process hasn't changed, has it?

Michelle Fey: Oh, yeah, that's changed too.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So okay. So what do you do now?

Michelle Fey: So now I cull and I do color correction, and then I show them.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so isn't that what you're doing before?

Michelle Fey: No, because I do a little bit more to make them artwork.

Andrew Hellmich: Now?

Michelle Fey: When I retouch them, but before I would, now, it takes me 40 minutes, if that, to get it ready for a client to see, whereas before it wouldn't take me a whole day to edit.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you do a very basic retouch now.

Michelle Fey: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, well, sorry, you probably do a basic color correction, not a retouch.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, yeah, no, I don't I might get us. No, I don't even get scratches off anymore.

Andrew Hellmich: And what are you using? What product or software are using to sell?

Michelle Fey: Uh, Fundy.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, perfect.

Michelle Fey: Not Well, yeah, either.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry?

Michelle Fey: Not very well yet.

Andrew Hellmich: Why are you then using Fundy or getting the sales?

Michelle Fey: Oh, no, just using Fundy. I'm sure I could use it so much better, but I'm still learning.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, great. All right, so talk to me about your price list now. How much does it cost? How has it changed?

Michelle Fey: So for a maternity or any other shoot, and a simple newborn shoot, it's $150. For the ultimate newborn shoot, which most, most of them want to book, is 250 so that's what they have to pay to book in and get their session locked in.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So just before we move on to the actual prizes, when you when you made that change from 650 to 150 or 250, how did you feel about that?

Michelle Fey: I sh*t myself. I thought I'm not going to get anything.

Andrew Hellmich: You're going to be going backwards.

Michelle Fey: Yeah. But in saying that I also made first thing that they could possibly buy would take it to 650.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so, so that was how Johl was saying. "Okay, let's alleviate your fear by making the minimum product, minimum spend."

Michelle Fey: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, he's gonna take it up to six so, so you still don't want to work for under 650 per session. That's what you're telling me.

Michelle Fey: No, no, no.

Andrew Hellmich: That makes sense. Just, Just to clarify as well, Michelle, were you doing pre shoot consultations before this new price list?

Michelle Fey: No

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so this is that's a new thing.

Michelle Fey: That's a complete new thing, and it works.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay, all right, so I pay 150 or 250 most likely 250 i I've come in. I've seen your products. I love what I'm seeing. What are the things they're going to show me about the prices? What? How does a price list work?

Michelle Fey: So the price lists are on the wall. So with every product or album, the price list is right there so they can see it. They can, at the moment, take a photograph of it, so they can take it away and talk about it, and it's, it's completely obvious. I'm not hiding when, when I do my pop-ins, those clients that come into my studio can see what the prices are. They see the artwork, and they know what everything is. Yeah, I've still got a few more pieces of artwork to get, but it's, yeah, we're getting there.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you literally have a price list, a price a price tag, if you like, or sticker, or something next to each product in the studio.

Michelle Fey: Yep, yep. So it's completely obvious and people can see it. It's completely, I don't want people to feel that I'm tricking them, or it's a secret of how much anything it is, that's how much it is. If you want to buy it, that's awesome. If you don't, because you can't afford it, or it's not in your budget. I'm not your photographer, and I'm okay with it.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you actually say, do you voice that, that view, that approach to your clients?

Michelle Fey: Um. If it comes up that I think you're too expensive, they'll be like, That's okay. I have seen it in emails. That's like, "Look, we just can't afford it." It's like, "Yep, you need to stick within your budget. I'm really sorry. These are my prices. It's just you do need to stick within your budget. Good luck with your baby. I wish you well, and I you know where to find me if you need me at any point."

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. Okay, so you don't recommend any other cheaper photographers. You don't say, good luck. Hope your photos turn out okay, nothing like nothing too snarky.

Michelle Fey: Because you don't know what's around the corner. How do I know they're not someone doesn't gift them $3,000 for whatever reason, and they want to come back to me. So I need and I believe in kindness.

Andrew Hellmich: I like that. So how does someone go from spending $650 with a very base product, which I'm curious to know what is? What that is? How do they get from there up to your two and a half thousand average.

Michelle Fey: They all want the digitals.

Andrew Hellmich: So it's that simple, okay, so talk, talk me through your prices. What do I get if I'm going to spend 650?

Michelle Fey: So you're, if you want to spend, the lowest thing that you can buy is a 11 by 14 framed print at $578 or a canvas frame print. So it's framed at $578 that's only 11 by 14, so it's not very big.

Andrew Hellmich: Does anyone get that?

Michelle Fey: No

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so what's that? What's the next step up from there? So if I come in and buy that only, that's all I get. I don't get any digital. Do I get the digital for that 11 x 14?

Michelle Fey: You get the digital for that print at that size.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, got it.

Michelle Fey: You can only print it out again, smaller than that, but no bigger.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay, so what's the next step up from there?

Michelle Fey: Allegedly

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, allegedly, that's right.

Michelle Fey: I know it can be done, but most people don't understand that. Okay. And they can go up to a 12 by 18.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, which costs?

Michelle Fey: 778

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Michelle Fey: Or a 24 by 16, which is 978.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And I imagine you have an example of a small, medium and large.

Michelle Fey: Yes, not so much the small, but the medium and larger up on the wall.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so is the small? Do you just bring that out? Do you?

Michelle Fey: The smallest, yeah, it's a I show them what a seven by 10 is measured in 11 by 14 frame. I just put it over and say that's the size of the actual image.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay.

Michelle Fey: The list of things I still need to do.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, so you will actually show that once you have one.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, I'll have one. Yeah. It's just a matter of finding an image I really like, and then I'll because I've got to look at it every day.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

Michelle Fey: What I really like.

Andrew Hellmich: Fair enough. All right, so I can see 978 is the biggest I can go for wall art. I'm still nowhere near two and a half thousand.

Michelle Fey: No, so you're not. Um, so most people seem to be going, I've got, yeah, the last five people have wanted keepsake boxes. So they want the smaller image, but they want more that they can change around. So I had five in a portfolio set, which just comes in a little box. And that's 1778.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so it's five, seven by 10, matted prints that go in this box with it, with the acrylic cover.

Michelle Fey: No, they just, that just goes in the cardboard box.

Andrew Hellmich: Just, Oh, right. Okay. Is that how it comes from your from your supplier?

Michelle Fey: Yeah, I just get a cardboard box. It's a nice cardboard box, but it's still just a cardboard box. It will keep them really well, but it's just a cardboard box.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so where, where are you getting these from, is this from Seldex?

Michelle Fey: Uh, Global. Global Image Product Products.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool, nice. Okay, so that's, that's 1778, alright.

Michelle Fey: Sorry, that's the 10.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so I get 10 seven by 10s for 1778 .

Michelle Fey: Yeah. And I also get the files that at that size for those 10.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay.

Michelle Fey: That's right.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And there's also a starter pack with five, seven by 10s, which cost…

Michelle Fey: Yeah, 978.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, all right. So even if I take the most popular option, which is the 10, seven by 10s in a keepsake box for 1778.

Michelle Fey: They buy a frame.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so they get that and then so, so what happens that the people actually come in and say, "Michelle, I really want all the digitals." Or do you make that an option? When do you let them know that that's an option?

Michelle Fey: After they've seen the slideshow and go, "Well, what do you like? Do you like wall art? Or do you like lots of small stuff? Or do you like their albums?" Then once I work out what they like, and it's like, "Well, you can get the portfolio of 10, and maybe if you get a piece of wall art, it takes it over that two and a half thousand dollars and then you get all the digitals". And it's like, "Oh, I get all the digitals?"

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so does this usually come up at the pre shoot consultation, or is this usually at the sale session?

Michelle Fey: A bit of both. But if they because a lot of the time, they want to know about the digitals, it's like, "Well, how do I get the digitals?" And it's like, "Well, you can have all", so I go through the process. "If you buy this, if you buy a 24 by 16 canvas, framed print, you get that image at that size digitally, and then you can reprint it as much as you like." But for some reason they want all of them.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so that's why the most clients will get the 10, seven by 10 keepsake box for 1778, then they'll add a piece of wall art which takes them over the two and a half thousand and they automatically get the digital files included.

Michelle Fey: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay.

Michelle Fey: It's happening every time, so I need to move it.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, so what, wo what Johl's saying? And I guess we all know that if the clients are all spending that much, we can push the prices up a bit.

Michelle Fey: Yeah. So if, if they all want the digitals that badly. How far can I push it? So then don't always because it's extra editing. So instead of, because it's up to 33 images that I show them, or around that 30 images of that I show them, it's like, that's 30 images that I had now I have to edit.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, rather than just the 10 that were in the keepsake box or the one piece of wall art. Got it and just, just so I'm clear with your wall art. Are they a single image inside of frame print, or do you have multiple images inside of frame?

Michelle Fey: I am doing a 30 by 30 wall art storyboard. I just need to get it printed.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you're selling these things without even having them on show yet.

Michelle Fey: The, I haven't sold a 30 by 30 wall out story yet, but as soon as I know, I know, as soon as I get it on the wall, someone will buy it.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, okay, so it's so much easier to sell what you're showing.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, if they, they don't buy what they can't see.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you feel like, and I know this is a little bit off, off the price list topic, do you feel like people are buying the keepsake boxes, because that's what you love.

Michelle Fey: No, I like the wall art.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, really, that's, that's interesting.

Michelle Fey: I like the big wall art, I don't, I could only have a keepsake box or an album because I have, I live up on a hill, and so most of my wall space are windows, so I don't have a lot of space to put big wall art.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you, for you personally, you would take a keepsake box.

Michelle Fey: I'd take a keepsake box just for the mere fact that I might take a medium size frame print, because I've got my boys as medium size on my wall, because that's all I can fit. I can't fit a big one anywhere.

Andrew Hellmich: Does anyone ever ask you why the prices end in 78?

Michelle Fey: No

Andrew Hellmich: They just take it as face value.

Michelle Fey: They just don't say anything. I think they round it down, and I'm good with that.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah, right. Okay, so is this, have you reworked this process at all since you implemented it, or you just did what Johl said and ran with it.

Michelle Fey: I did what Johl said, but I was scared, so I bought the prices of the albums down by about five or $600 but I may re look at that and just change it.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So he said, Johl, it doesn't sound like Johl's super pushy. He still wants you to be comfortable, but he's pushing you at the same time.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, he's pushing you, but he's helping you in baby steps along the way.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So he's now proved to you, you can make two and a half thousand every single time. So now we can push you a bit further to maybe get to three, then three and a half.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, yeah. So now I need to, I'm happy with how everything is going. I'm actually looking at, people seem to really like that portfolio set. So I'm looking at bringing in a set of 20 which will take them over that two and a half mark at least. Then they know they've got them all printed and they're the right color.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, okay, and then they're gonna get all the digital.

Michelle Fey: I'm gonna enter them anyway if they go over two and a half. So they might as well get what they want.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, exactly, cool.

Michelle Fey: But I'll just readjust all those prices.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And then with, so, with, with all your products, it sounds, Is it right that they have either the choice of a frame print or a frame canvas? That's really the two products.

Michelle Fey: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So there's no, there's no metal prints, there's no acrylic prints?

Michelle Fey: They're really hard to get in New Zealand.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, all right, so you do, you sell what you can get and what's available.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, and that's done locally, done 40 minutes from my house.

Andrew Hellmich: With Global Image Products.

Michelle Fey: No, no, that's what I package it in. But the printing and the framing is all done by a local person, so they are a local business, so they're 40 minutes from my house. We work together really well. He looks after me. I look after him. And it's supporting local and I'm kind of big on that too.

Andrew Hellmich: And you mentioned albums there? Do you sell many of them?

Michelle Fey: Yeah, I just sold one today for 2778.

Andrew Hellmich: 2778, so what sort of album is this?

Michelle Fey: It's a 10 by 10 Queensberry album.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, again, local to you, nice Queensberry. And that's a 10 by 10. So is that like a matted album?

Michelle Fey: No, it's 10 inches by 10 inches, and it's got about 30 pages.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, with, with matte, or just, like a, like a digital edge to edge.

Michelle Fey: No, no. Just printed.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, right. Okay, so super simple, nice and just one image to a page.

Michelle Fey: Oh, no. Sometimes, I just see that, I just send everything to Queensberry and say, "Can you design this?"

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, really. And they do it for you.

Michelle Fey: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So does the client have to approve that first or they just trust?

Michelle Fey: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, they do.

Michelle Fey: So that comes back to me digitally. I forward it to them. They look at it, they decide it, and then they make any changes they want. I'm play the middleman, and then get it done. It's not particularly difficult. I could possibly, in time, once I get better as get it done and Fundy, so then I can show them what it would look like. But that's it's just a learning curve, trying to find time to do the tutorials.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, I totally understand learning new software is always a nightmare. I just wanted to double check with you, so I'm looking at Johl's pricing formula. And so he talks about a sweet spot, doesn't he has like, an 80% sweet spot?

Michelle Fey: Yep

Andrew Hellmich: So is yours, is your sweet spot, is that the two and a half thousand?

Michelle Fey: Everyone's going for that, so I need to move it.

Andrew Hellmich: But when you first started this new price this, your sweet spot was two and a half?

Michelle Fey: I didn't know what my sweet plus spot was going to be.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So you went into this with no real idea?

Michelle Fey: No real idea. I didn't know how it was going to go. I didn't know the, I really didn't think anyone was going to spend two and a half to get all the digitals.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. What was Johl saying when you said that?

Michelle Fey: I don't actually think I would have said that to him.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're thinking it too afraid to voice it.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, I think there's no way that they're going to spend. No one is going to buy an album. I've sold three.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. Okay, I know, I know the listener will be thinking about your previous clients, or clients that have used you in the past, or clients that have referred their friends, they would be freaking out knowing that your prices have gone up so much. Did you find that?

Michelle Fey: No, I, I have a client who, she's got, she's about to have a third baby. Her first baby I photograph for all the digitals, or it would have been about $350 or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: And she's coming back now for the new price list?

Michelle Fey: Then I did her second one, and they would have been to a maximum of 1200, she wanted to come back again. And I said to her, you need to come in and you need to see what we're doing now. So she came in and I showed her, and we chatted, and she's like, "Yes, wait, put me in."

Andrew Hellmich: It just shows you can't prejudge your clients. Can you?

Michelle Fey: No, no, you can't. And the thing is, it's like, this is why I'm doing it. It's like the they're all printed on museum grade paper. It's acid free matte. It's got a UV glass in front of it. You can, that child is going to be able to pass it on to their children. And I do it. You don't have to do it. I do it for you. So I come from a service type of thing, because everyone's busy and no one gets anything done. I have been married for 17 years. I still haven't done my wedding album.

Andrew Hellmich: I bet there are going to be a lot of couples like that.

Michelle Fey: Exactly, and it's just like, "I'll do it for you. You just have to let you know." And most people these days are happy to pay for someone to get it done. Because, well, my, well, the clients that I have are all that's like, "Yes, wait, you do it, so then I don't have to do it", and I can just get it done.

Andrew Hellmich: Hang it on the wall when it's finished.

Michelle Fey: Yep

Andrew Hellmich: Lovely. You know what I really love about this, more than anything, is the fact that your photography hasn't changed. You're working, you're doing the same style, the same sort of editing. Nothing's really changed, apart from your price list and you're making double.

Michelle Fey: I know it blows my mind. Seriously blows my mind.

Andrew Hellmich: What would you have said if 12 months ago, or even six months ago or four months ago, someone had said you can make double for doing exactly the same thing as you're doing right now.

Michelle Fey: I'm not gonna believe it.

Andrew Hellmich: So what made you initially reach out to Johl?

Michelle Fey: His mindset.

Andrew Hellmich: What, did you see something about him on Facebook? Did you hear about him on a podcast?

Michelle Fey: Yeah, on Facebook. And I kind of just stalked him a little bit, and he reached out to me, and that's what pushed it over the line.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So he reached out, what you must have commented on a post or something, did you? And then he reached out.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, yeah, because I liked what he was putting in his lives. They resonated with me. He's done really well in the photography business, but his client, his, his coaching business, is like, he's just really starting to work on it. So I I didn't feel like a number. I felt like and his mindset of what he was saying really did resonate with me.

Andrew Hellmich: What would you say to someone that was listening to this thinking about changing their price list or hiring Johl for some mindset coaching?

Michelle Fey: Oh, just do it. Because when the whole thing with the coaching, it was expensive to me, and it's like, how do I afford to pay for this? But after talking to Johl, how do I not afford to pay for this, and just with what it's done to my business and my mind and my positivity, you're crazy not to find the money.

Andrew Hellmich: Where do you think, Michelle, your prices will be if we chatted in 12 months’ time?

Michelle Fey: I have no idea. I'm just gonna see where this amazing ride takes me and what, what else I can do to get people to print their photos.

Andrew Hellmich: What if I was to suggest, or maybe even Johl was to suggest to you that in 12 months’ time, I can see your price prices being double what they are now. What? How would that make you feel?

Michelle Fey: I'd be stoked.

Andrew Hellmich: Totally not scared anymore, but stoked.

Michelle Fey: Scared. He was like, "Bring it, let's go. Let's do this!"

Andrew Hellmich: I love it, Michelle, you're amazing. Where, where's the best place for the listener to check out more of your work and see what you do?

Michelle Fey: All those folks in Kiwiland can go check out my website at www.michellefey.co.nz, or find me on Facebook at the same and Instagram. Not that that moves that much, because it's on one of those things that I need to do. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. And that's, that's not only for people in NZ. That's going to be for anyone around the world that's listening to this, they can go and check out your beautiful photography. And I'm like, it is. It's absolutely gorgeous. I love that photo on your homepage. Actually, I love, I love a few of them. There's some cute little babies over there that you're photographing.

Michelle Fey: If you go and have a look at my website right now and then about two or three months’ time, come back and have another look at it will be completely different.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice.

Michelle Fey: It'll be better, way better.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. Look, Michelle, thank you so much for sharing what you have. It's been a real pleasure to chat to you.

Michelle Fey: Yeah, nice. Nice to chat to you, and nice to meet you.