457: Jenn Lindberg – From deep financial trouble to an inspiring photography business

457: Jenn Lindberg – From deep financial trouble to an inspiring photography business

 

Andrew Hellmich: As soon as you land on the home page of today's guest's website, there's a very good chance you'll know that she's not the photographer for you, or rather, you'll most likely feel you're not the client for her, because the site screams luxury and wealth. The lead image features an amazing home complete with grand piano and a very large family portrait of mum and dad dressed in formal attire with a young daughter in a frilly white dress. There's so much more I want to include in this intro and to let you know why I've asked this amazing photographer to record this interview, one of the things was in a recent email exchange, I learned that her studio had a record month in last December of over 174,000 US dollars. That's in one month. And before that, I received this incredible email. "I really wanted to send you my heartfelt thanks for your podcast. I can't remember who it was, but a fellow photographer told me that listening to your podcast would be the equivalent of getting an MBA in the photography business, they were so right. When I signed up for your podcast, we were in deep financial struggle. I could no longer shoot weddings, which had been our mainstay for 15 plus years. My dream of getting eight qualified clients a month still seemed so far off. Fast forward to today, my husband, Jim and I, had turned over 1 million US dollars in the last 12 months. We live in a small Texas town, population about 14,000 and specialize in black and white family portraits. Listening to several of your podcasts literally changed our lives for beyond the better. It still honestly feels unreal at times. So please know what you're doing is bringing so much value to people's lives every day, even the quiet ones who don't often say much." Now I'm talking about the wonderful and talented Jennifer Lindberg, and I'm truly rapt to have her with us now, Jenn, welcome to the podcast.

Jenn Lindberg: Thank you so much for having me. This is such an honor.

Andrew Hellmich: Look. It feels like that for me too. How does it feel when you when you think about, you know, how the business has changed over the last couple of years?

Jenn Lindberg: Honestly, I'm still adapting to the whole concept of having such a successful business and learning to manage it and to grow with it as it's grown pretty rapidly.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. I can't wait to get into the details, but let's go back a little bit to the 15 plus years of wedding photography that must have been a successful business if you're doing it for 15 years.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. And I really felt that I had reached the kind of pinnacle of my career, and I saw myself retiring doing weddings. I mean, I really thought I would close my career doing weddings. So to have to pivot in 2017 and try to find something different, but still related to photography, was really daunting. I'm not young. I turned 50 this year, so..

Andrew Hellmich: That's young.

Jenn Lindberg: In some ways, right? But having to pivot out of weddings and that having been really most of my professional life, like I'd been a photo journalist before weddings, and then I was a wedding photo journalist. That was really scary.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure. So why did you have to stop photographing weddings?

Jenn Lindberg: So the biggest reason was in March of 2017 I got rear ended in a car accident, and it actually impacted my vision, and it impacted especially my distance vision and a wedding is such an unrepeatable life event. It's such a complex visual field. You know, you've got the bride here, you've got her parents over here, you've got the wedding party over here, and you're constantly having to respond and process. And I just didn't have the confidence that I could deliver at the same level that I had been before the accident. We had weddings still contracted, and so I brought extra staff and extra team, you know, I had my editors take an extra look at everything, and I would have Jim try to help me. But a wedding is so fast with checking the back of the camera and making sure everything's good, it just it completely changed how a wedding felt and how my confidence about executing it at the level I had been executing,

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, and was that a luxury brand with wealthy clients as well?

Jenn Lindberg: It was. So our wedding average was around 12,000 a wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Jenn Lindberg: And so we had worked really hard to get into a high end circle. We were on lists like the Four Seasons Hotel recommended list. We had strong relationships with planners who recommended us, and we had built a reputation that I didn't have to do anything like ads or really much marketing. People would come to us, and they would get our price list, and if they were so interested, we'd have an interview and that was how we were able to make a living all those years.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. And was Jim part of the business then too.

Jenn Lindberg: So he started assisting with me in 2006 and then in 2008 we got married, and he joined the business full time. That was sort of a dream that we had, and we decided to try it for six months, and he's been with me full time in the business since 2008.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: What a partnership. There's so many things I want to ask you about the business now, and we're going to get into the marketing and the client acquisition and lead generation and things like that. But I'm going to make you maybe a little bit uncomfortable, but I'm curious, are you from money? You and Jim, like originally?

Jenn Lindberg: So in some ways Yes, and in some ways No. Jim grew up on a farm in Iowa, so he was not from money, and he grew up in a really different lifestyle than I did. So he grew up, his family couldn't take vacations together because someone always had to stay on the farm to take care of the livestock, and they had a really good life, but it wasn't like a wealthy life. And then for me, when my parents were married together, they were fairly wealthy. My dad was a successful attorney, and we had a nanny. And then my parents divorced when I was about seven eight, and so we had to, like, move to the other side of the tracks. My mom had four kids, and she went back to college to become a nurse. So then I was in a different neighborhood, different social class, a different you know, so on the weekends with my dad, we'd be kind of at the tennis club. And then, you know, with my mom, it was very much like they were working to make a living, to put food on the table. She was my role model for like, a career woman, you know, doing whatever it took, classes all night, working all day, you know, to make it work for our family.

Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like a movie script. It really does. So I'm curious to know, because I think, well, I know I've spoken to so many photographers that would love to be in the position you're in, serving your clients, delivering your kind of work, but I get the feeling that there's these money blocks. And interestingly, you said to me, before we started recording, talking about money makes you uncomfortable, even though you've been around money your whole life. Why is that?

Jenn Lindberg: I think it probably depends on the family you grew up in and the culture you grow up in. But I just was raised thinking it's really rude to talk about how much money you make. You know that if you are good at something, people will notice it. You don't talk about it. And I think there might be another layer too, of just like women and money. You know that you just don't hear as many women sort of making a million dollars in their businesses, and, you know, being out there.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you feel like that's changing?

Jenn Lindberg: I do feel like it's changing, and that's so good.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. What about Jim and his upbringing? Does he feel the same way about money as you do? Or if you go and visit his family, are you happy to discuss the fact that you have a million dollar business?

Jenn Lindberg: They don't know.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, wow!

Jenn Lindberg: I mean, I think they know that we've gotten really busy, you know, that we have a lot of bookings, but you know, we don't discuss, like, sales average or, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. And what about your dad? Is he surprised that you are a photographer, and that you can build a successful business as a photographer, because I imagine there was pressure for you to become an attorney or something, you know, like that.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, he did want me to do that, but really early on, I declared my interest in the arts, so I went that way, like from high school on, so from 13 on, um, this is so interesting, because we hadn't discussed it a lot, but he recently told me that he was really proud of me, and he doesn't know all the specifics, but I think he could tell that we had built something, that we had worked hard and built something, and so yeah, that was, I mean, you're never too old to hear your parents say that they're proud of you, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So what was it do you think that had him saying that? Like, what was the catalyst to have him say that to you?

Jenn Lindberg: It was so out of the blue. So I'm really not sure of the exact catalyst, but, I mean, he could see that we were busy. He knew that we had a lot of bookings. He knew that the studio was keeping us busy, that that was something we had wanted, and maybe he could just sense something, too.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. The reason, I guess I'm asking you this, is because we're recording, I mean, I'm not recording video, but we have video on at the moment. Yeah, I've obviously spent time on your website. The listener can't see this, but you're sitting in your waiting room, in your studio, and I've got to say, it looks like a million dollar gallery. It doesn't look like a photographer studio, and I imagine if your father walks in there, anyone would be surprised and impressed and proud.

Jenn Lindberg: No

Andrew Hellmich: No?

Jenn Lindberg: Thanks. I, it's come a long way. It's come a long way. And I have to really credit about a year ago. It was really about a year ago that Bernie, we had this waiting room, was actually our shooting room, and it faced the street, and people could walk by and see in, and he was like, "You have it all wrong. You've gotta flip the rooms. You've gotta have this gorgeous waiting room and have this shooting space in the back." And it's like "The back is too small." And he said, measure it. And we measured it, and it was like a foot smaller, like there was no reason for me to be holding on to that idea that it was too small. And so as soon as we flipped the rooms and we have a talented friend who's a designer, and she started picking, you know, the furniture and helping us with that piece and getting the samples on the wall with Bernie's guidance, it completely changed this place. And he also predicts, he's like, your average is going to go up once you do that.

Andrew Hellmich: And it did.

Jenn Lindberg: And he was right. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Has your father walked into the studio? Has he seen what I'm seeing?

Jenn Lindberg: Not since we redid it, so I would love to have him see it now.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So tell me about the struggle, like when I introduced you and that email that you shared with me that you know there was a struggle when you made that transition, I don't understand. Like seeing where you are now and knowing that you already had this luxury brand as a wedding photographer, why was there the struggle when you transitioned to portraits? Why was it so difficult to find the clients that you needed to support the business that you wanted to build?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, I just didn't know how to get the clients in. So, like I said, with weddings before, when I started the wedding business in Austin, Texas, there were maybe five or six of us doing them. If you had a nice website and a reasonable portfolio, you were going to get work. And so we got our website done for the portraits, like the first version of it in 2018 and I thought, well, people will come in and they'll start calling and they'll but it's not like a wedding. There's not a huge external push for people to book. And so I had no idea how to make the business model work how to get people in. And so we started approaching past wedding clients to offer complimentary sessions. And I think like in 2018 we maybe got 11 people to come in.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, that's all 11.

Jenn Lindberg: 11 and then in 2019 we had about 15 that we were able to get in, and we were so broke that we had to take out a Home Equity mortgage loan on our home, which was a huge low moment for me.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So is that like refinancing your home?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, and taking cash out of your home.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay.

Jenn Lindberg: And it wasn't cash so we could do something great with it. It was cash so we could, I mean, it was great that we had it, but so that we could just pay the bills and keep going.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay. And so did you and Jim have to get other jobs, or you were fixed on making this portrait photography business work?

Jenn Lindberg: We were fixed on making it work. So, yeah, we launched on an evergreen funnel to try to start getting clients that way. And we had lots of no sales and lots of, just not great fits for clients.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you say you had lots of no sales, so it sounds like you were running promotions, bringing in leads and converting them to sessions, but you weren't making sales. So what was the misfit here?

Jenn Lindberg: So we were giving away a free canvas, and it was expensive, and there were a lot of people that were just taking the free canvas, and our prices were set really high, really high. So we were having a lot of uncomfortable moments where people wanted to purchase, but there was no pathway that was very accessible for them to purchase. And that was a model I had heard about, and I thought, "Oh, we're used to luxury. We can just do that over here with portraits." And when Bernie looked at our price list, he was like, "Most people struggle to raise their prices too high. He's like, but your prices are too high, you need to come down." So it's kind of a different kind of problem.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so with the clients that you have now, were they the same clients that you were getting no sales from? Or were they a different kind of people, a different class of client?

Jenn Lindberg: I think they're the same. And I wanted to say that our website, you know, went for a luxury look for it. But what I've learned is, every single person who walks in the store, I have no idea what they're going to, how much they're going to value, what we do for them. You know, I've had people that show up and like ripped hole-y clothes that look like they just came from the gym, and they might spend $5,000 on portraits. So one thing that's been really interesting and humbling is just, I have no idea, but if they, if they're interested in the offer, and they pay the booking fee, and they go through our kind of consult process on the phone, then they're going to come in, and we're going to treat them like the most important client in the world and see what happens from there.

Andrew Hellmich: And in most cases, what happens?

Jenn Lindberg: So in most cases, they buy. I think we have about a 9% no sale rate. You know, those never feel good. And about a 22% low sale rate, you know where they sort of take one print.

Andrew Hellmich: So what would be a low sale for you? Are we talking $1,000

Jenn Lindberg: 495 dollars.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. When I read the intro that I produced for you today, and you heard me talking about your website. Do you feel like it's having that effect that it had on me? And is that the effect you're looking for?

Jenn Lindberg: That was definitely the effect when we created it. Now so many people don't even look at the website.

Andrew Hellmich: Really?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So how do they come in the door? How do they find you?

Jenn Lindberg: So we use the Bernie style Facebook ads. So I listened to you, think it was episode 136.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes.

Jenn Lindberg: And I started doing those ads, and I'm not a technical person, and they started working right away. I think I got like 40 leads right away. And I thought, if this works for free content, what would it be like to work you know, have a coach that actually came up with this concept. So that's why we approached Bernie after that episode and just trying out the free information that you were giving on the podcast.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so to me, there's a real disconnect here that I've seen with so many other photographers, and I've struggled with this myself when trying to help other photographers, because I didn't expect that your luxury clients would be responding to Facebook ads like that, but it sounds like you've, you found the opposite.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. I mean, some people find us and they contact us directly through the website, through like the contact form or call, but the lion's share of our clients are coming in on an offer for a complimentary session.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so let's say you're running a wanted ad, and I can see you're actually as we're recording. You're running one right now?

Jenn Lindberg: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I can see that. And it's very simple. It's the same old Bernie style ad that we've talked about ad nauseam on the podcast. Like it continues to work. I know John Glaser isn't far from you a couple of hours away. He's doing the same thing. Marcus Anthony, Brian Kellogg, all these other photographers, we know this works.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: But I didn't expect that it would work for luxury clients. Your qualifying process, I imagine, must be different to lower end photographers. Am I right or not?

Jenn Lindberg: I don't. I don't know how to answer that. I mean, you know, our average for last year was 2300 so I don't know if that is that considered luxury?

Andrew Hellmich: No, I don't think so.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, so I want to say that maybe we're not serving the luxury market.

Andrew Hellmich: So then how do you get to a million dollars or a month of 174,000?

Jenn Lindberg: So let me just have the breakdowns, in 2021 we shot 485 portrait sessions at an average of 2300 and that totaled 1,104,000.

Andrew Hellmich: What do you think when you read those numbers out?

Jenn Lindberg: There's like a lot of commas.

Andrew Hellmich: So hang on, 485 sessions. That's, that's close to, well, it is 10 a week. Wow, yeah, so you guys are working your butts off. How many photographers are there?

Jenn Lindberg: So now, in June, we hired two photographers, and we also have an assistant, but I do want to say that there's no way we could have grown the way that we did without a team. So I hired an amazing, I call her a portrait concierge, and she does our phone bookings and our sales on Zoom, so I don't have to do the sales anymore, which I didn't love. I didn't love doing them, and she loves doing them. And then I have an amazing head of post-production that worked with me in the weddings. We've been a team together since 2012 and so she's a massive part of the calling and making the images look the way they do. We developed this sort of aesthetic together, and she she's had to hire other people to help her because we've gotten so busy. And Jim, you know, he and I are partners, so I would rather do the sessions and then bring along the photographers, work with them and do the things I love, and have the team also do the things they love. And that's how we're able to do this kind of volume, which before I would have thought, There's no way I could do that.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, and so this volume is being supported primarily by Facebook ads.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: I love it.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So cool

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So tell me about the qualification process, because I imagine at some point you're letting people know these days that most clients are spending two and a half thousand or something like that.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, people definitely get pricing information before they book. It's also on the landing page. It's on the phone call. It's on email link that sent to them. It's on text. I actually have a beautiful like printed magazine with pricing in it that's given to our clients, so there are multiple touch points for sharing pricing, and then I think also, when they're at the studio, the way that it looks in the way we present the work sets the tone as well.

Andrew Hellmich: In the tone for what they might spend.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, for what they might spend, but also that there's no obligation to spend.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you say that? Like, do you give them an easy way out? And how early do you do that? Like, sorry, what's the name of the did you say it was a girl, a lady making the calls?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, we have an amazing lady. She's actually hired other people too. So she's amazing.

Andrew Hellmich: What's her name?

Jenn Lindberg: Audra.

Andrew Hellmich: Audra. So does Audra like when she's looking to qualify a client? Does she, would say something like, "The clients spend, on average, two and a half thousand dollars. You're going to fall in love with your photos." I imagine something like that. Does she also give them a way out to say, "Oh, that's too expensive for us."

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. Because to her and, and this is so right on, the qualifying process is also a disqualifying process. So we don't want someone coming in who's not going to feel comfortable with the pricing. So, you know, we want people to feel like this is a good match right from the beginning. And she's also the person who's going to be presenting their portraits to them and taking their orders. So she also doesn't want to bring someone in who's not going to be happy.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So she's doing the qualification process and the sales.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So she's building a relationship right from the start, selling you and then selling that the image.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, yes.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. So she wants to make life nice for herself as well.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, exactly right. It's built into the system that, you know, she doesn't want to have someone on the back end unhappy or not informed.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Well, so when you hired her, when you hired Audra, does she have an idea of, you know, what your photography is worth, what it's valued at, what people would pay?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, we had gone over all of that, you know. And when I had less volume, I did have a lot higher end sales. The ones that we did make were, you know, 4000 6000 25,000 once. So we had had some really significant sales. And even since we changed our pricing and are doing the more volume model, we've had a really good, like an $18,000 sale Audra did with someone.

Andrew Hellmich: And is she getting a commission as well?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, she gets a commission.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So she's incentivized as well to make all this work, which is lovely.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, she is. But we definitely have learned, and Bernie really teaches us well in his system, that it's not selling, it's helping, you know? So I never want someone to feel high pressure sales. I mean, sometimes people feel that way just because they have to make a decision, and that's difficult for some people. But I never want someone to feel like a, I don't know, like that bad feeling from being pressured. So really, she really does. She's in a helper role, like, "How can I make this easy for you to decide? How can we make this fit in your budget? We do some payment plans." So that's something I didn't know how to do before, and that's made a big difference too.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so tell me about the disqualification process. How does Audra let someone down nicely?

Jenn Lindberg: Well, you'd have to ask her all the specifics on that.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that you don't even know.

Jenn Lindberg: I think, you know, people kind of gently will say, "Oh, you know, I need to talk to my partner or my husband", or, "Oh, maybe this isn't such a good time after all." Or, and I think people will sort of politely, kind of help themselves out of the booking process too.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so she, let's say she has a successful call. She schedules a session. So I'm guessing she has it, you know, the photographer's diaries up there, or calendar up there, she books the session. You know, do people book in for just the children, or is it always a family session?

Jenn Lindberg: So we run different projects, and sometimes, like we did a one recently on curly haired children. And so sometimes the families would come and do the session with the kids. So sometimes it would be just the curly haired child. So it just depends on the project.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so let's say, let's say it's a curly haired child project or promotion. Do you encourage Audra to try and get the family in, because it's going to result in a bigger sale or better sale?

Jenn Lindberg: Absolutely. Yeah, she will definitely let them know. Like "You could bring your family in. It is no extra charge. Jenn, Jim can fit them in at the end, or the team can fit them in", you know? So, yeah, she definitely makes sure that they know they could bring you know, their the parents can come, the grandparents, the dog, they're all welcome.

Andrew Hellmich: I can see a photo of a child with a dog in the background. What have you seen when clients first walk in the door of the studio?

Jenn Lindberg: Sometimes people will comment, they really like the decor, like the design of it, and they'll say they love black and white. And then sometimes certain portraits that are on the wall will resonate with them.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you take them through the studio to start looking at artwork, or is Audra already done that?

Jenn Lindberg: She hasn't done that, so she suggests that they look at the website. She'll send them links. She'll send them links to our most popular artwork options and pricing that's on our website, but a lot of them have seen now. They've seen the work on Facebook, or they've seen the work on Instagram, so they'll say, "Oh, I saw this photo on Instagram and I loved it." Or, you know, they'll, they'll refer to something that they saw.

Andrew Hellmich: So, okay, this is interesting. You said Instagram because I, I've only got one Instagram link for you, which is Jennifer Lindberg studio, and there's only two posts and 13 followers, so you must have a different account.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, that one should be closed. It's at Jennifer Lindberg Photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, okay.

Jenn Lindberg: So we kind of merged it all into to one. So it starts at the very bottom with weddings.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, okay.

Jenn Lindberg: And then it kind of evolves up into what we're doing now.

Andrew Hellmich: So, and the reason I asked you about families walking into your studio for the first time. I imagine that if they weren't aware, I would immediately get the sense that, okay, this is, this is something fancy, this is special. This isn't going to be cheap. We're going to get something beautiful for our home. Like, do people actually, I know I would be thinking that. I probably wouldn't voice that, except to my wife. Do you get a sense of that when they come into the studio?

Jenn Lindberg: I think I have a few times I'm thinking of like, one family that came in and they were like, "We had no idea it was going to be like this. We had no idea that the work was going to be so moving", you know. And so sometimes I think, you know, even though Audra really tries to educate people about, you know, this being special, we're making artwork of their family, and we're really careful about the language that we use around the portrait sessions and what we're doing here. Still, sometimes I think people come in expecting like, like a really fast 10 shots kind of experience, and so that's fun. It's fun to surprise them with something like, more attentive and more responsive to their family.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Okay, so how long does the session generally take? A family session.

Jenn Lindberg: So when people arrive, we had an hour and a half time blocks. So when they arrive, we generally spend 10 to 15 minutes chatting in the front room, and I'm getting to know each other a bit, and then they'll go back to the changing room, and sometimes they change and sometimes they don't need to. In the camera room we spend 30 to 40 minutes, and then they kind of leave.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so it's quite quick.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, it can go longer if there are more people, like we had a family, I think last weekend they had 19 people come in. Took about two hours.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I can imagine.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, but in general, we can do most things in 30 to 40 minutes of actual photography time.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. And just on a side note, we haven't talked about your photographic career as such, and you are an incredibly talented photographer. You've done all sorts of amazing projects in addition to your weddings. How did you find, you know, moving into a studio and photographing, you know, set portraits with your photo journalistic background, was that a struggle for you?

Jenn Lindberg: At first, it really was, and I wondered, like, are people going to like this? You know, I was so used to being in environments that were beautiful, like weddings with these, you know, gorgeous floral arrangements and table settings, or for engagement photos with a cityscape, or, you know, going to a beautiful, you know, Texas Hill Country, rolling hills and oak trees. And I was really used to the environment like that being part of the portraits and part of what made them successful and appealing. And so it really took me a while to believe, to become a believer. Like, no, this is, this is different, but this is really beautiful and valuable too. And Jim was more on board right from the beginning. He was looking at Pinterest, and he was like, "Ah, this is so cool." And he was so excited about it. And I was like, "Ah, you think people are gonna, I don't want this. They're gonna like this." So, so it's taken some time, and then, you know, also figuring out a way to evoke emotion in the studio, like that's been an ongoing, you know, most people don't want just a stiff, posed, overly you know, they want something that feels more authentic and expressive and like them.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you have those photo journalistic moments in the studio, that you're looking for?

Jenn Lindberg: For sure.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. Do you feel like a photographer today or a business woman?

Jenn Lindberg: So I feel like, like both, you know, I don't think it has to be either or. I think that, you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts. Thankfully, I found yours, and I follow this life coach named Simone Soul, and she talks about, like, the spirit of your business, that it's its own thing. And spirit is a little bit of a, like a woo word for me. But I do feel like my business is, like, it has a heart, you know? And it's, it's so many things. It's business, it's relational, it's the team, it's the people who are willing to take the time to walk through the door, you know? It's this organic, beautiful thing that's happening. And so I feel like I can't say I'm a business person or an artist, but I definitely feel like I'm both. I like both.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, I love that. Is that how you've always been, or has that changed as you become a portrait photographer?

Jenn Lindberg: I've had to learn a lot more about business since we, you know, really committed to the studio. It wasn't easy, but there wasn't effortlessness to being to the weddings, the way that my career launched and the way that it grew, it didn't take a lot of extra education to learn the business. Maybe I could have done better if I had been more thoughtful about it, but this requires a lot more scaling and managing and volume and systems and CRMs and just things I didn't really you know, when you're only working for 15 or 20 clients a year, you're not worried so much about workflows and automations and CRMs. But now we couldn't do this without those things.

Andrew Hellmich: No, 10 families a week, that's a totally different beast.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Do you ever lose sleep at night thinking, "What if my Facebook account gets shut down or Facebook disappears?"

Jenn Lindberg: I think because I almost really lost everything in around 2017 because I've had things just go from like here to here so fast, and then had to figure out this way to build it up. No. I mean, I think that, you know, with Bernie and the group that I'm in with his group of photographers he's coaching, we're always looking for other ways to bring in clients, and so I think it's important, you know, not to be overly passive about it. But I also think that if something's working really beautifully, you just keep going

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely so are you doing other things in addition to ads to generate leads?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, so we're always working on third party affiliate marketing, and we've done some auctions in the past where we donate to galas, you know, that kind of died down during COVID, and then with Bernie, he's helped us with some really beautiful charitable book projects. So we got to do one where we photographed 100 athletes and we raised money for kids with disabilities to play sports. We raised $5,000 we were able to give that to the charity. And now we're raising, this year, $10,000 for breast cancer patients in Texas, for services for them.

Andrew Hellmich: This is the current promotion.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, this is a current promotion. It's a book project. So at the end there'll be a book.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, which I've done a couple of these myself. So these book projects that you're doing, they also generate sales, don't they?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, they do. Here's what I found about portraits, that people often want them, but they need a reason to come in. There needs to be some motivating prompt for them to make the appointment and come in. It's not like a wedding where you set a date. So it could be supporting a charity that makes them decide, "Hey, I'm going to finally get the kids together and do this." Or it could be, "Hey, this book project sounds really neat, and I'd like to be a part of it." Or, "Hey, this photographer is wanting to, you know what needs photos of us with our dogs for her portfolio." But if they had a reason, something like that to kind of prompt them to come in. All they need is that little reason that connects. With the curly haired kids, so many parents told us, "My child's been bullied for having curly hair, and I think this would build their confidence."

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, like, I didn't realize it's kind of a marginalized group of people that's..

Andrew Hellmich: I would never have guessed that, ever.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, but it meant something to them, like they're going to be the focus, and this is for them, and this is celebrating them.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I feel bad for moving away from the curly haired kids and going back to the sports, the athletes.

Jenn Lindberg: That's okay.

Andrew Hellmich: But the athletes who you photographed for the book project. So who's buying those portraits? Is it the athletes or the athletes' parents?

Jenn Lindberg: The athletes parents.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So they respond to the ad, or whatever you're doing for that promotion, the parents bring the child in you photograph. Do they get photographed too, or is it only the athlete?

Jenn Lindberg: So it was a mixture. So sometimes the families would get photographed too, but a lot of times it was just the athletes or sibling athletes. So, you know, if you've got a family of, you know, like we had a brother-sister. One was, one was a 10 year old triathlete, you know, she brought her bicycle and held it over her head, and she brought her swim gear and her running and her brother was a, like, American football player, you know. So we would have him, like, throw the football and do football positions. And it was all about the two of them together and individually.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And then, so at what point does the family suspect or know or learn that they might be spending, you know, two or $3,000 on portraits.

Jenn Lindberg: Before they book.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So Audra takes them through the same process as the Facebook ad promotions.

Jenn Lindberg: Yes, and the landing page too is really clear, like, what's included, you know, what can we expect afterwards? You know, "Can we purchase the photos? Yes, you can. Here's the starting prices. Here's what people typically spend", you know, "Here's a link to the pricing on our website", and so you just try to be as transparent as possible with people, so they have enough information to make a good decision. And some people know, like, "Hey, I just want to be in the book", or, "Hey, I just want one." And that's, that's great, too.

Andrew Hellmich: And do they still get in? Like, if someone tells Audra, "Hey, I just want to be in the book", they can still book a session.

Jenn Lindberg: Absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Why?

Jenn Lindberg: Well, we're raising money for the charity. So they were still willing to make the donation, and they were still willing to pay the refundable fee to book the time slot. And I also just, I've had a few, this isn't the reason, but I've had a few clients that have told Audra, "I'm only going to want the one print." And then they see the images and they're like, "Oh, maybe I want to get a piece for the wall", or maybe I want something else.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. Absolutely.

Jenn Lindberg: So that could always happen.

Andrew Hellmich: What's the booking fee? The refundable booking fee? How much is that?

Jenn Lindberg: So right now, it's $200.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, yeah. And they can put that towards print credits or whatever they like?

Jenn Lindberg: Whatever they like, yeah. And if they choose not to purchase, it goes right back to them.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, easy, yeah. And is that just a credit card number?

Jenn Lindberg: It is, they give a credit card number, and it's actually taken off the card, so it is a payment that's made.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So you get the really lovely I mean, I guess everyone has the lovely part. I mean, Audra gets to show the photos, but you get to do the session. Once you're saying goodbye, have they already spoken to Audra about their sales session, or their viewing session, whatever you call it?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, their ordering session has already been scheduled, and they're getting reminders for it. It's about a week after the portrait session, and they also will get, like, an automated email and some literature. So we kind of have a system set up for that.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you finish the session that the files go to someone else in your team to do the culling and the editing, and I'm guessing by the sound and look of your studio that everything is fully processed before the client sees anything.

Jenn Lindberg: It is. So the culling process is actually like a team effort. So I still have my hand in it with our editor, and then I'm doing the very final selection before she does the final touch ups. But yes, that was one thing that I just wasn't willing to change in the business model. I wanted to be really proud of what we were presenting and have it be on brand. And so I know that's not a good fit for some people, and I understand that it's not maybe the smartest business decision in terms of profit, but I also do think that it could lend itself to higher sales, and it definitely gives people like the wow experience of seeing, you know, seeing their portraits, of what they're going to look like, their finished portraits.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Yeah. So everything's processed. Audra has already scheduled the ordering session.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: That happens via zoom. I think you said earlier.

Jenn Lindberg: It does.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And what software are using for that ProSelect?

Jenn Lindberg: ProSelect

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So, and are you doing room views of the clients homes?

Jenn Lindberg: We don't do that anymore. That was definitely something that we had tried and tested, and not enough people would participate and send in their room views. And then it took a lot of time to chase them. And then what are you going to do? Penalize them, like, I'm not going to do your meeting if you don't have your so it just gets kind of created an awkward dynamic. So now we don't do room views, but we do ProSelect, and they see a slideshow of their favorite, of our favorite sets of music, and then she has a system for taking them through to identify their favorites, and they're talking about what they might want to purchase and order.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And does Audra pre designed some collections that she feels look good, or you feel would look good together.

Jenn Lindberg: No

Andrew Hellmich: Nothing. So that's all just done on the fly with the clients. She's dragging and dropping there in front of them.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And does mum and dad, or both parents, have to be there for that ordering session? Or will she take mum?

Jenn Lindberg: We highly recommend it. We highly recommend.

Andrew Hellmich: We all do. We all do.

Jenn Lindberg: And actually, when they're leaving the studio, I make sure they're both together. When I say, "Hey, you know your ordering sessions coming up next week with Audra, can't wait for you to see them." And you know, "Please be sure to read the magazine that I've given you. It's going to help you be fully prepared. And you know, there's pricing and there's", so if there's anything that one of the people has, one of them missed during the whole process, then that way, at least they're hearing it together once. And I'll say, you know, "Please remember, that's your one time to order, if you would like to. That's your special time."

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you're not really saying or insisting that you're both there, but you're just hinting at the fact they should be there together.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. And they, I mean, they do get an email that sort of points out that usually both partners want to have a say, whether it's aesthetic or financial, in a decision like this, and so we really recommend rescheduling if one of the partners can't make it. But sometimes people are, people know, and usually it's women. They're like, "I don't need my husband there to make this decision." And then sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're not. So, but I think that's just part of this business, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Let me ask you what I think might be a tough question, seeing that you're the artist. What is it that you feel? And there might be more than one thing that makes Audra's job easy to sell the photos that you create.

Jenn Lindberg: What's one thing that makes it easy?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, why do you think it's so easy for her to get the sales that she's generating?

 
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Jenn Lindberg: ….the team's goal is to make every person who walks in to give them our absolute and total presence during the chat and in the camera room. So we want to give them an amazing experience. What, however the images turn out. We want the experience of being here to be fun, and you know, for that to just be something really special and memorable being here. And then we work really hard to make the photos, with our lighting, with our posing, with the way that we think about relationships, all of that in the camera room, we, and in the post production, we want them to look like art, and so that's the goal. And then Audra, when I interviewed her for the position, she made me want to buy my own services, like I could tell she had something I didn't have. I was like, this woman, I've only talked to her for 30 minutes or 40 minutes, and I already want to buy from her, like I I would buy my own things from her. And in a way that that also felt warm. It didn't feel, it was a positive feeling. So I think she's a believer in the sense that she believes in what she's offering. So it's kind of a, it's a combination of a lot of things.

Andrew Hellmich: Is Audra the same age as you and I?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Okay.

Jenn Lindberg: I think she's a little younger.

Andrew Hellmich: Safe to say that, in case she listens.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Good move. When I asked you that question about, you know, what makes her job easy to sell, my line of thinking was, you might be asking the families, you know, what's special about their child, what's something that they do, what's something you do to get, you trying to elicit some kind of emotional attachment to the images that you're creating in the studio, so that when they see them, they immediately, "Oh, my god", their heart jumps. They feel something because it takes them back to that moment. Are you doing those kind of things, or is it just, I don't want to say just, is it because they're beautiful photos?

Jenn Lindberg: We definitely ask them, like, what are some of your favorite things about your kids right now at this phase, you know, or and, you know, sometimes people feel a little shy sharing, but sometimes people cry before we even get in the camera room, just pausing and thinking like, oh, so we do elicit information that will help us in the camera room. And Audra knows what they've said, like, we have a system for her knowing, "Hey, it was really important for this family to get, you know their aunt passed away, and they really wanted you know these three women together, you know, in this certain way because they did that with her aunt", or she'll know that in advance.

Andrew Hellmich: So this goes into the CRM, after the session.

Jenn Lindberg: It does.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. You've said "we" a lot there. So is it you and Jim or you and one of the other photographers or assistants photographing together?

Jenn Lindberg: So it's always a team here. And it started that way because it was me and Jim together, and he's fantastic at the lighting, and he's amazing with the kids. And so it enables me to kind of get, sort of inside my own mind more with composing and seeing what I'm seeing. And he can also check me if I feel unsure. So there's just, we kind of developed this team approach in the camera room. And so when we were hiring our first photographer. We just hired one, and we were training him and training him, and we realized this is a really hard job for one person, you know, like Jim's offering drinks. He's taking things back to the camera room. I'm sitting and chatting. If there's just one person, you know, he's getting the kids to look at the camera. He's, you know, we're it's, so we just decided that's part of what we can offer people. And Audra also got the feedback. "Hey, I think this went so well because of Jen and Jim", like they were both there, and you know, Jim was getting Joey's attention, and, you know, he was making Michael laugh. And so we just, we just decided to make that part of our brand, even though, from a business standpoint, might be more expensive to staff two people in the camera room. We just don't care. We think it's part of what we can offer.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. I love that. I love it. I caught a quick view of Jim before he had to run out and get the kids in the camera that we're talking to each other on, before I saw him in the view, I expected to see you and Jim looking like the couple on your homepage. You know, I didn't expect him to be in a tux, but I that's how I, that was the vision I had of you guys. But yeah, he had. He lived, I don't want to say like a farmer, but he lived like a normal guy.

Jenn Lindberg: Sporty

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So do you guys dress like the people in your photos for a photographic session when a family turns up. Or are you casual, Jen and Jim?

Jenn Lindberg: Well, I would say, like, maybe casual with a little bit of an arty flair. So Jim has a lot of these, like, really beautiful button up shirts that have, like, colorful detail on the collar and on the collar and on those cuffs that he folds back and nice, like, nice shoes, like really nice shoes. So he'll have some nice pieces on, and then maybe dark jeans. And then for me, one of the photographers that we recently hired, Pam, I love working with her. She's like, "I'm going to be you for Halloween. I'm going to wear, like, a flowy robe and some tights." So I always have on, like, a kimono, something kind of long and flowy and some tights.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you guys look the part, like people are getting the full experience when they turn up. They know this is something special.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. I mean, we're not sort of super formal. And when we used to do our ordering meetings in person, Jim and I, Jim would wear a sport coat, and I would dress a little more, so it's we're less formally dressed than we used to be, but we definitely aren't afraid to kind of be, like, as, like, kind of a more artistic.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, already looking, yeah, I get that.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. And is it the same for Audra in the sales appointments?

Jenn Lindberg: I think she tends to go just sort of more neutral.

Andrew Hellmich: And does she do these calls from her home or from the studio?

Jenn Lindberg: She does them from her home office or from her office, and she's in a different state.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, wow.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. And our head of post-production, Julia, she's in Poland.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Jenn Lindberg: So we have an international national team.

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds cool to even say that?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, it's cool.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. And one thing I wanted to say about having a salesperson was, it felt so, I heard other people talk about it, and I wanted that so much, but I didn't know how to find it. But part of what I wanted was someone to be able to talk about the work and talk about us, and not have it be me talking about the work and talking about us. So I don't have to say to someone now, like, "That's my favorite one." And they're like, "Oh, my nose looks too big." And I get, you know, and I get kind of, I would always feel deflated after a sales session or ordering session, even if it went well. And I think that is part of my like, artist sensitivity. Now I just get to make the work with the client, and then if Audra hears about someone not liking their profile or something, then I'm kind of buffered from that.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes. So do you tell Audra, or do you let her know what your favorite images are? Or does she share what hers are with the client?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, so those are in our slideshow. So we pick our favorites, Jim and I.

Andrew Hellmich: In addition to all the other photos that they're seeing.

Jenn Lindberg: So, yeah, that's so, let's say we're going to deliver 50. There might be 20 in the slideshow, and Jim and I will pick those 20.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, okay, so that the client's actually going to see 50 on the day, but you're going to show only 20 in the slideshow of your favorite.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, that'll be the intro. So they'll see, like, the 20 top favorites.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, and as Audra's, you know, present that as these are Jenn and Jim's favorites from the session.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, yeah, she does.

Andrew Hellmich: Good. And I know that you, what you sell yourself as a black and white photographer, the big question, do clients ever ask for color? And do they get it?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, they do. So everything that we capture is captured in color. And so I always have a color set for people to look at if they would like to. And I would say maybe two to 3% of our clients do choose color .

Andrew Hellmich: That's so small. Okay, tiny.

Jenn Lindberg: It's so small. Yeah. And I've always loved black and white. When I first started, that's all I did. Was black and white film photography for years and years, that's all I did. And so kind of going back to that's been really, I've loved that for me, and then it seems to really resonate with people too. Like I thought it might be a negative, but Bernie really encouraged us.

Andrew Hellmich: They're timeless, aren't they? And then they met your style beautifully. Are you shooting on 35 mil or medium format cameras?

Jenn Lindberg: We use Nikon D850s.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so 35 mil, but large files.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, but large files.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And are clients generally taking home large prints for their home.

Jenn Lindberg: Some clients do. So we sell a combination of wall art, matted prints that are, you know, in a beautiful box, and digitals.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so even digitals.

Jenn Lindberg: We didn't do before burning, so we didn't offer digitals before, which is a big problem.

Andrew Hellmich: So can I come in with my family and just buy digitals? Or that's discouraged.

Jenn Lindberg: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: I can.

Jenn Lindberg: You can, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: But I imagine they're not cheap.

Jenn Lindberg: They're not cheap. So I think we, the starting price is six digitals for a 1995 medium res.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And is that to encourage people to buy wall art, or you're quite happy for them to take home digitals?

Jenn Lindberg: I definitely have a personal preference to make the art for them, because I know, you know, I know what the quality is going to be, and I can oversee that. But no, if someone's really committed to doing digitals, that's, that's an option. It's just, if people are looking for it as a cheaper option, it's not really that. It's not really a cheaper option.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so the cheaper option would be a smaller piece of artwork.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, a smaller piece of artwork,

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. And just, finally, Jenn, you also offer, is it an oil painting or something kind of additional service that goes along with the canvases?

Jenn Lindberg: Yes, so we don't sell a lot of them, but occasionally we'll have a client that would like an oil painted canvas. And so we do have a way of taking their portrait and then having it digitally painted by our artist, and then having it brush stroked with a like a clear acrylic.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're starting with a photo that they're brushing over the top of?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, first digitally and then actually, physically.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, okay, got it.

Jenn Lindberg: So it definitely has a like, the feeling of a painting.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I love it. I love it.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I do have one more question. But first of all, let's just let me before I ask you that and finish off, I just want to say you are absolutely amazing. You must be so proud. You must pinch yourself. You and Jim, "Look what we've built. This is amazing."

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. I mean, when I told you it felt unreal in the email, it still feels unreal a lot of days and so exciting, and I feel so grateful, especially, you know, for anyone that's been through hard times, I used to dream of getting eight clients a month. That seemed like, you know, an unattainable, not unattainable, but like that was the goal. If I could just get eight clients in the door a month, a whole month, you know, we could do it. We could pull this off. So to have, you know, 50-60, clients coming through a month, and to be opening a second studio above us.

Andrew Hellmich: Are you? I didn't know that. I didn't ask you that. Why don't you drop that at the end? What do you mean above us? Like a different brand?

Jenn Lindberg: No, it's gonna be the same brand, but we have enough volume that we can support more sessions. So we tested it out in December. It was an AirBNB apartment, and we did three days of testing, and the results were awesome. So we're in the process now of taking out some walls and furnishing it and putting up samples, and in March, we plan to launch our second studio above us.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so the same team, just an extra studio, so you can shoot double the numbers if you need to.

Jenn Lindberg: Exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: So did you buy the premises, or you're leasing it?

Jenn Lindberg: We bought the premises in 2016 as like our wedding office to and to sell wedding albums. And so yeah, Jim had a, like, a 401K leftover from a previous job. And I'm so glad we did it. We were able to put the down payment on we were able to qualify, some dear friends of ours, sold us the building at like, a really good price, you know. And now our town is having explosive growth.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, fantastic. So this isn't your home, this is purely studio and office.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, yeah. And it's like three blocks from where we live.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So, like, this is just amazing. I would love to have you back to talk about the other things you've done. I mean, I read that you've adopted children as well. Like, you have an amazing story. So I hope I can get you back at some point.

Jenn Lindberg: Oh, thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: Before I do let you go, it's just occurring to me now, and it's silly that it's taken so long. And I might be way off base here, but I get the feeling that the clients that I see on your homepage and that lead image, they're not necessarily the clients that you're after, but they may be the kind of people that your clients would aspire to be, or, I don't know, they don't sound like you're real clients. Are they? Am I off the mark here?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. I mean, some of them are. So it's a mixture. You know, you have people that will pull up to our studio, and they're in luxury vehicles, and there are people that pull up to the studio and their air conditioning has been out and they can't roll up their windows and there's no judgment there. I've been there, you know, I've been I've been there. So I think when I started the business and launched the website, I thought the clients would be one group, and it was the group I was used to working with for weddings. But instead, there's this incredible array of people that are coming in, and that's part of what's made me fall in love with the work is, you know, we have so many different kinds of families, traditional, non-traditional, you know, people who've suffered tragedies, people who just, you know, get Christmas cards every year. I mean, there's just, there's everything. Every reason that people have to come in. It's, it's such a, it's so diverse and so interesting. Yeah, I love that. And this is just not something I could have predicted without trying things out, you know, and listening to our coach and, you know, being willing to try some different things and let go of kind of how we thought it would be or should be.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, you've totally, totally blown me away and my idea of your business before we started talking, because I was expecting you to say, "Oh yes, I'm a member of the Country Club and the tennis club, and that's where my clients are coming from." But it's not that at all. I mean, they look like the people on your website, but your real clients are mums and dads with kids.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, and they just love family portraits.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah. So come to Texas. Come to the barbecue conference, march 29 and 30th.

Andrew Hellmich: What is it? The barbecue conference?

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah, it's Bernie's barbecue conference, and we're hosting it in Lockhart, so I'm helping to organize it, and Glazer is going to be there, and Marcus Anthony, and I think Brian's coming, and a lot of other people in the group, including a guy from Ireland. So people are coming all over to Texas, to this little town, and we're gonna have two days of just kind of talking, giving talks and demos, and, you know, sharing with each other.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll add links to this in the show notes. But when is it?

Jenn Lindberg: It's March 29, and 30th. We're calling it "Bernie's barbecue conference", because Lockhart is famous for barbecue. I think 250,000 people come here each year just to eat barbecue. So even though the town is really small, only 14,200, 250,000 come here to eat.

Andrew Hellmich: For barbecue.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds like a great place for Aussies to come because we love barbecues.

Jenn Lindberg: C'mon, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And did you just refer to John Glaser as Glaser? Just Glaser. I love that.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. Jenn, I'm gonna add links to anywhere and everywhere people can find you online and again, like just massive thanks for sending that original email, for saying yes to this for I know putting aside some of your fears about talking about money, you are absolutely amazing, and I know that listeners will get so much from what you had to share. So thank you.

Jenn Lindberg: Thank you very much. And I really want to say thank you to you too, because I meant what I said in that email. And the person who told me I can't remember, but who said this was like getting an MBA in the business of photography was so true. And when you're interviewing a guest, and I think, like, "Oh, I want to know this", you ask that question, it's like you're reading my mind. So you've created something that brings so much value to people's lives, and that also helped me get over my fear of being here because you've already given me so much. So thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: Thanks, Jenn. You have to come back in the group and let us know what your dad says when he hears this.

Jenn Lindberg: Okay

Andrew Hellmich: And your husband's family.

Jenn Lindberg: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Thank you, Jenn, you've been amazing.

Jenn Lindberg: Thanks so much, Andrew.