456: Audrey Woulard – How to create a relevant and fashion focussed teen photography business

456: Audrey Woulard - How to create a relevant and fashion focused teen photography business

 

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is a Chicago based portrait photographer who specializes in teen and family photography. She is the name behind the Kids and the City Brand. In addition to her portrait work, she takes on a few high profile commercial clients, including People Magazine, InStyle, US Weekly, InTouch, Better Homes and Gardens ,and photography industry magazines. Now, once she decided photography was going to be her career, she wanted it to be able to fully support her family of six. She completely transformed herself and moved forward heavily with the marketing side of things. Today, she's a WPPI speaker, Nikon ambassador and Pro Photo Legend of Light. Her senior photography is focused on creatively showing her client hobbies and sports in a way like no other photographer. She says, "When a teenager books a photo shoot with her, it means they are looking for something different." I'm talking about the super talented and award winning Audrey Woulard, and I'm rapt to say that she's with us now. Audrey, welcome.

Audrey Woulard: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Andrew Hellmich: It's my pleasure, I love your website. As soon as I landed on the site, I say "Wow, this is cool, this is something different." Have you always focus on teens?

Audrey Woulard: No, actually, I started my business as like a baby, newborn, maternity photographer, and it just sort of blossomed into teens and seniors. But that was not by design. It just sort of happened that way.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you say just sort of happened, was it because they started booking you? You needed more work, you needed a higher income? Like, how did it happen?

Audrey Woulard: So I am really, I guess I'm very focused on retaining my client base, like I don't want them to go to anyone else for anything. So it was really, really important to me that as families grew, they saw me as the person to go to. And, you know, no matter what happened in their families or, you know, I became part of it, so I took it really personal, if they want it to go to someone else. So as the kids grow, families, you know, they change dynamics, change, needs change. I started to focus more on older children. But along with that, comes referrals, you know, word of mouth. So as families grew and their kids became teenagers, obviously they're friends with other teenagers. So the new clients that I started to get, were all of the age of, you know, what I call my core client base, and that's kind of how it happened.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so, so did you actually stop, or did you start to say no to photographing newborns, or you just don't show them on your website anymore?

Audrey Woulard: Well, they don't really call me. You know, it's like, if you stop showing you know , the old line that you hear 'show what you want to do'. So as I started just showing new work, which was older children. That's just what I started to, you know, getting, when moms of newborns, you know, they see my work, they're like, "Well, she can't handle a baby." And I'm kind of, like, "Good, I can't anymore."

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. So it's really, it's happened organically as the business has grown and as you've grown as a photographer.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, that was not planned. I think a lot of people think I wanted to move into seniors, you know, and teenagers. And if I didn't care so deeply about the people that you know began my business with, I probably would have just stayed and that young family, you know, niche. But I just was so attached to these people that I just like, you know, I was just like, "No, don't go to them. You have to stay, you have to stay with me." And that's really how that really was how it was.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So did you have to, then, like, learn new techniques and develop your skills as the clients you know grew up as well?

Audrey Woulard: You know, I try to always look at things in hindsight, and I would like to say that I didn't. And I also had, my kids were also kind of the same ages as my, you know, kind of core client base. So my mentality was kind of always there. But the one thing that I did have to really adapt to, I guess, from a marketing perspective, is that, you know, teenagers, they just change their minds all the time. And if you want to kind of stay in the forefront of that particular niche, you have to kind of do what they want. And I used to think that, "Hey, whatever I want people to do, they're going to do it because I want that." But I had to really change that mindset, that "Okay, I have to kind of adopt what they want and change with the times and really, you know, be on the forefront of that." So that was something that I really had to learn, which was an element of letting go of control and kind of going with what they wanted to do. That was, that was a tough one, but it was easily adaptable, because I have teenagers, so I understood it.

Andrew Hellmich: So can you give me an example of what do you mean by doing what they want and changing and being flexible to their needs?

Audrey Woulard: So, you may agree, you may not. I think that the world is very social media focused, and especially from a teenager's perspective, they're very social media focused. And if the same thing is consistently being shown, they're bored of it. So from my perspective, I used to have this really big studio, and you know, I was kind of outside. I was on the rooftop. The rooftop became this big, popular thing with these teenagers. But what happened was, everyone had the same rooftop picture. They didn't like that anymore. So then I had to like, "All right, well, what do you guys want? What do you want to do?" I now had to, you know, take into consideration what they wanted. And with that, what ended up happening. I mean, I can give you so many different examples, and that's probably wasn't the best one. But what ended up happening was, I had to now find different locations that represented my style, but also what they wanted. But what happened was, I live in a big city, Chicago, which is, you're in Australia, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

Audrey Woulard: So Sydney, it's nothing, but Sydney, so it's, it's it. You can't, you can't come to the studio, pay for parking, park, you know, and parents come up and then get back in the car, drive to the location, pay for parking again. It was just too much. So I ended up having to change my entire business model and go back on location to keep these kids interested. Does that big, every time, I ramble a lot, do you learn?

Andrew Hellmich: No, it does 100% so I mean, so if I look at the lead image on your website, on your homepage, which I love, it's a teenager. She's dressed in ski gear. She's wearing ski goggles, but it looks very model like.

Audrey Woulard: Oh, that's a new one, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. It's so striking. So is that an idea that she came up with, or she planted the seed? Like, how do you get to that point?

Audrey Woulard: So I've been photographing her since she was five, and she always came to the city, right for her shoots, and it became one of those things. Like I said, "Teenagers want change. They like change. They do not like to stay stagnant." So I'm like, "Well, you know what? I'll just come by you. " That spot was horrible. I really did not know what to do, what not to do. And then, when her mom pulled out the clothes, I'm like, I know exactly what to do. So with the mom, the location looks just like we were literally just in like a little forest area. I mean, it looked like it was crappy. It really was bad. But to my client base, they don't know what I'm going after, which is what keeps them coming back, if that makes any sort of sense, like at all. That I can take the simplicity of something and make it look like it was bigger than it was.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I totally get what you're saying here, but to me, it's the ski goggles that make the shot like, that's, that's the thing that separates this image from other senior photos.

Audrey Woulard: Right. And combining it with that light and play, I could have hid from the sun. I could have went, you know, in a shaded area, but I really wanted it to kind of like shine. So I put her in a spot where no one else would have done. It was really bad. I mean, it was really bad.

Andrew Hellmich: So, yes. So back to my question. You know, did she have the ski gear in the back of the car? Do you know that she's a skier? Did she say, "I want photos with my ski goggles?"

Audrey Woulard: She opened her trunk and there were the goggles. I'm like, "Bring those." That was not part of the outfit, so, you know. And it became, I guess, the focal point of the outfit. And the reason I wanted it was because I knew I could use that reflection to my advantage. You know, click them, you know, the reflection in the goggles. I can really make the picture stand out by playing with the reflection. That was the reason why.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Again, I love the image. I love it says a lot about her. It says a lot about you as a photographer. And the light, like everything, it's an impeccable image. I love it.

Audrey Woulard: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: When you suggest using, so let's wear the goggles. Is her first thought? "No, I'm not doing that. That's, you know, that's ridiculous." Or is she like, "Yeah, Audrey, whatever you want to do, I'm up."

Audrey Woulard: The first thought is, "Audrey, you're ridiculous, but I trust you."

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay.

Audrey Woulard: It depends on who it is, but I would usually either get, "Are you sure? ", or "You're ridiculous", or I will get a look of 'your ridiculous, but I trust you'. It's usually that.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And I imagine that in this situation, she, you know, you would have had photos with the goggles up on her head, holding the goggles, wearing the you would have tried a few different things.

Audrey Woulard: Yes, a lot of different things. I mean, I didn't just leave her there. I do move around, but I kind of stay, you know, within a very small radius. That has been one of the, I guess. . Uh, what's the word I want to say? One of the reasons why people hire me, I have a very long time client who kind of explained something to me. You only have to tell me something once, and I get it, and she said, "You're very quick. You don't make us move a lot. "And I get people in and out. So I did do a lot of changes, a lot of movement, but it didn't seem a lot to the client, if that makes any sense.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. And then an image like this. So again, I get the feeling, and I'm focusing on this one image because it's right here in front of me. And the listener can see it if they go to your website. The thing about this image is it kind of image that I could see on the wall of a ski shop? I could see on the wall of a shopping mall in a shopping center? I could see it in a client's home, but I'm thinking that's not the kind of photo that a client or a mother would pick for their home. So where does this photo fit in in regards to what the client buys?

Audrey Woulard: So the one they actually purchased is not that, it is a one from that series, but it's a vertical one. But I'm big on albums, and I sell an album every set. I mean, I've been a photographer 18 years. I can count on one hand how many times I have not sold an album. So all of those images go in an album, because my goal with every photo session is to create images that someone can't say no to. And I look at it like, you know, I'm a parent, so I look at it from that perspective. I know how to create a hero shot, and I know my hero shots will always go on the wall. I know that. And usually it's kind of, I guess, a little bit of mind play. That's probably not a good word if my clients hear this. But you know what? We're all friends. They get me, but it's kind of, you know, usually I know what that hero shot is. I just instantly know it. And it's usually the first one that I have shared with them. And that's the one they buy. And it's kind of like, "Well, she likes it, I like it. Let's go there. "And then everything else will make its way into the album. They love it, but they don't want to let it go, so it'll go in an album.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Got it. Now, I don't know a lot about the senior portrait market in the States, because we don't have that market here in Australia. Do you classify yourself as a seniors photographer? And are you then relying on graduation and a certain time of year to get an influx of clients? Or, are you photographing all year round?

Audrey Woulard: So you know, that's a funny one. I don't really call myself a senior photographer, per se, because in the States, it's a rite of passage. When you graduate high school, you guys call it High School, correct?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Audrey Woulard: Okay, so that's a rite of passage. That's something that you do. With my business model, I see these people every year. So it's not really considered, "a rite of passage." So I don't really consider myself a senior photographer, but I photograph these kids for their senior pictures as well. It kind of all becomes one big photo session. So for example, let's say it's a family of four, right. And the oldest is getting ready to graduate, go off to university. We will do a couple of extra outfits just for that older person, the older kid? And then we'll do the families, and things like that. But we'll spend a little extra time with that older child. That probably is a good 85 -90% of my work. I do get people who will say, "Hey, I only want to take senior pictures. "That is a very small part of it. Is that makes any sense?

Andrew Hellmich: It does. So, when do you start marketing to your clients? At what age are you looking to attract them in for a photo session? And are you marketing to the student, the child, or to their mother?

Audrey Woulard: Gosh, okay, so that is a really good question, and it's one that I have a hard time answering, because I want lifelong clients, like that's what I want. And if they happen to be five years old or 17 years old, I don't care, you're still coming to me. So I am marketing towards a memory, and I'm marketing towards "You want this type of a photo session, this is what you want. You come to me." So it's really, like a year long thing, like, it doesn't, I don't do it at a specific time. It's just all the time.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, and then, so who are you looking to attract with your marketing? Is it the mother?

Audrey Woulard: Both. So, you know, I really consider myself having two clients. I've got a teenager and I have the mother, right? If I wanted to just do an average, an average age, I probably would start, you know, bringing people in, is around that 12- 13 year old mark, right. And those kids would find me on Instagram, and you know, they, you know, like some of their friends pictures and what not. But they're too little to book a session, and even if they decided they wanted to act grown up and call me, I wouldn't talk to him, like, "Put your mom on the phone." So, because that's the one who makes the decisions. So then, therefore, I get, you know, connected with the parent. Now my marketing is to the parent. But, I also know how to market to the teenager. So it's like, kind of like a simultaneous thing where, you know, talk with the mom, and you're booking the session, and I'm telling her, "Hey, I understand. We'll, you know, get these types of pictures." But then I'm still talking to the teenager, because I would say, "Well, you know, she'll say what clothes should we wear." Then I would probably say, "You know, what you can just have", and I'm just going to make up a name. "You can just have Susie send me some pictures on Instagram", or "Here's my phone number, she can text me a couple of her favorite outfits, and we can put things together." Now, that opens up the line of communication with the teenager. So I really have two different clients, and I will never let an assistant talk to either one of them, because no one can talk for me. If that makes that gave you an entirely different question, didn't it?

Andrew Hellmich: Not at all, not at all, really. So you're trying to attract the teenager, but you want to talk to the mother.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, right. Like it's the mom who pays the price, but I kind of lure them in with the teenagers. So it's very hard to have a traditional, I guess, marketing plan for two clients. You kind of really can't. So the perception of my business has always been very laid back. You can always talk to me, you know. I am your first point of contact. I never want to place myself too high on a pedestal where someone feel that they feel that they can't reach me, like that's just, that's very much part of my business plan. So, by having a line of communication with the teenager where they don't feel intimidated, having another line of communication with the parent to know that they can trust me, rely on me, tell me, you know, they can say things to me like, "You know, my daughter's really getting on my nerves today because of X, Y and Z." I want that type of rapport, because my sales are just higher when I have that. So it's very much, when I used to speak, I called it high touch sales and high touch marketing, that I'm very much in the face. It's not kind of third party like, I'm not going to put up an ad on Facebook and say, "Hey, I'm having this, that", I could never that doesn't work for my business.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so let's say, I mean, a 12 or 13 year old who wants to have, is it them that really wants to have photos? Or is it the mother that's saying, "Hey, it's time we get some family photos."

Audrey Woulard: No, it's them.

Andrew Hellmich: Really

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, it's them. And, you know, it's really them, because if you just think about it, at that age, teenagers specifically, are very image driven, picture driven. They take pictures all the time. That's what they do. Now, they may not be good ones, but it is in their minds to take pictures, record, save, capture a memory. That is what this generation is all about. We, as photographers need to take out the fact that, "No, they don't look good." "No, the pictures aren't great." No, that's not the point. The point is to them, if there are no pictures, it didn't happen. Think about this. You know, just look online when things happen and there's a video of it, right? That this, it's usually a teenager who captured it. Usually it's someone very young.

Andrew Hellmich: True

Audrey Woulard: If we understand that, it's very easy to attract them, because that's how their minds are programmed. It's programmed. They're very image and picture focused. That's what they do. So yeah, they want them big time.

Andrew Hellmich: So if a 12 or 14 year old kid says to mom, you know, they want photos, and they like they've seen your stuff, or their friends have had photos, so you're going to go on and talk to the mother, because she's the decision maker.

Audrey Woulard: Right.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you then go back and still have a conversation with the teenager about what they want? Or does that all happen afterwards?

Audrey Woulard: Yes, after I talk to the mom, I will never engage with the kid prior to that, because what happens is, they go back and relay an entirely different conversation than you had with them. And then, from a parent's perspective, they're going to look at you like you're kind of preying on their kid. So I will never open up a line of a communication with a child, I mean, 17 and under, unless I talk to a parent, like never.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay, so what happens? So you have this conversation, the mother likes the sound of you. Do you discuss pricing? Do you talk about an album? Do you talk about locations? Or how does it generally work? How do you go from a lead to a booking?

Audrey Woulard: So. if it is a referral of a parent who knows another parent, totally easy, I can book that. That's an easy booking. The harder ones are the kids who are friends with each other, but the parents don't necessarily know each other. Those are a harder sell. So the way, I have to talk pricing, the only thing that you don't for me, I'm just gonna say this. This is my own thought process. The only thing that I don't do is give a full out price list, because they're always going to go price first, like always. I will give them my session fee, and then that's pretty much it. And then, once they get the pictures, then they saw themselves. But I will never send, you know, sell a price list. My kind of tagline that kind of gets me around that, is, "You know, there's no obligation", and there isn't there's no obligation, I have no you know, what do you call those prepaid? You know, how people make you pay something up front?

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, yeah.

Audrey Woulard: So I have none of that. I said "There's no obligation. You only buy what you love." So that really takes them off the hook, and I have to work really hard to make sure I get a sale, but that's usually what I say, and which is the truth, there's no you know, nothing blind, but that makes them feel well, they don't ask me anything else after that. Knock on wood.

Andrew Hellmich: What are they paying for? The session fee?

Audrey Woulard: My session fee is 450 US dollars.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so does that include any prints, any digital files?

Audrey Woulard: Nothing, time only, and that is set up front.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. So no, they're up for 450 and then they only purchase anything above and beyond that if they fall in love with the photos.

Audrey Woulard: Exactly. So I say, "If you and I do see sometimes, if I'm feel I'm getting a little pushback. I say, if you only like one picture, buy one picture."

Andrew Hellmich: Nice

Audrey Woulard: You know.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're confident then that once they see the photos, they're going to want to buy more.

Audrey Woulard: Oh yeah. They don't want to say no.. yeah

Andrew Hellmich: So before we get into pricing and numbers like, can you give us an idea of what your turnover is, your revenue?

Audrey Woulard: Oh, so year to date, not counting 2020. 2020, was bad for everyone, but 2019 was really good, and I grossed 275, so 275,000.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Audrey Woulard: And that's not including anything that I teach, because I do teach. So people want to know if that is included, it is not.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And then 2021 was that a good year as well? Did things bounce back?

Audrey Woulard: 2021 was a bounce back. So 2021 was, it was actually pretty good. So that was, if I'm not mistaken, my husband just ran the numbers, was 203.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so it's a great business.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, don't ask 2020, it was. .

Andrew Hellmich: But things are coming back. Awesome.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, 2020 was really bad.

Andrew Hellmich: And so how many clients do you? I mean, do you look to get a certain or to attract a certain number of clients each year? Or you just sort of take it as it comes.

Audrey Woulard: There was a time where I was doing 30 a month.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So one a day.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, it was bad. It was I was doing a couple of day. I was doing like two or three a day, and then I took Thursday, Friday and Saturday off. So Sunday through Wednesday, I was booking that many and it was just too much. And I stopped that in 2017. Yeah, 2017 I stopped that, and then I dropped down to like one a day, still on that Sunday through Wednesday model, right. So right now I'm still around that same, you know, maybe four or five a week, if that. .

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Audrey Woulard: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: And you have, like, I don't know Chicago well, but it snows there, right? Like, it gets cold.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah. You saw the pictures on my website.

Andrew Hellmich: So are you? Are you photographing right through winter? You know people are booking each day?

Audrey Woulard: Yes. So, I slow down right about now, and I always say "I'm not going to do anything." I say that every single year that taking off January, taking off February, and people tend to creep in somehow. So, in theory, January through March, I'm supposed to not do anything. That's when I regroup. That's when I, you know, crunch numbers again. See what I'm going to do. But right now, maybe five or six a month during those real cold seasons.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. I guess they're still pushing along, so still getting bookings, and kids are happy to say yes to an outdoor shoot in winter.

Audrey Woulard: Oh my gosh. I mean, after I shared that picture, I literally had people, because the people who know me know I will go out in whatever weather. But then when it kind of, you know, in terms of referrals, when a person sees a picture of someone that they are an acquaintance with, they don't know if I'm really going to go outside. And, you know the winter, and I'm like, "No." So I got a bunch of calls and have you want to do snow sessions. How does that work? So the way that I do it is, I would like, I make a list. So, you know, if anybody wants to get on that list, I put them on the list, then I would look at the forecast, and, you know, "Hey, it's supposed to snow on Thursday. Are you available for shoot?" It's either yes or no. If it's no, go down to the next person. And that's kind of how I book those types of shoots and make a snow list.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. So did that all take off when you published this photo that I can see on your homepage with the girl in the goggles? Is that why that took off?

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, I've been doing that for quite a while. Yes, but yeah, if I anytime someone sees like a picture of someone in the snow, then that becomes a flurry of picture, I mean picture requests. And for whatever reason.

Andrew Hellmich: Love it. I can see why for sure. But tell me about the album sales. So you said, you know, 98% of clients take home an album. When do you first plant the seed that they might be taking an album?

Audrey Woulard: So, return clients is easy. They see someone, they see an album. So that's always an easy, easy one. With new clients, someone that I would call, let's call them cold calls that they, I don't know them, they don't know me. I don't mention albums up front at all until they see a picture, their pictures. And the reason I don't do that is because they have a hard time saying no to something. So, you know, we love like, the last email I just got there, like, I picked about 30 or 40 of them. And I'm like, "Oh, great, we can put them on an album", and the way I break it. So if this does not make sense, let me know, and I will be happy to you know, explain it again. So just from a numbers perspective, my album, I've charged, and I've done this for quite a while. I probably should really raise the price, but I don't, is $2,800. So that's the price of the album. The album itself, I use a company. I think they're from Australia, for Neo albums, or they get them from there, or something. I don't know, because it takes a long time. So the album holds 40 images, right.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Audrey Woulard: I normally show more than that, and it's not a press printed album. It's an album that actually has like a white, you know, museum quality matte. You can pick whatever size you want, but I choose five by seven. So one picture per page, right? So it holds 40. But if they buy the album, we'll put 40 images in there. They can pick them, or I can pick them. They usually let me pick them, because, you know who wants to want to do that. And then I tell them that the remaining prints I will put in an envelope and place inside of the box, and you can give that to grandma, a cousin. And it really makes the album sell itself, because I'm using actual prints that are five by seven. The five by seven are $65 but, if they get an album, the entire album is $2,800 you know, you get the extras left over. So usually to the father, they're like, "Honey, this is a good deal, because if you buy them all at $65 a piece, then you're paying more money." So the album from that setup always sells itself. So, I started that, way before digitals were a thing. So the album really kind of still plays into the 2022 mindset of a lot of photographers selling the digital images because the clients want all of the pictures. Well, I still have that same mindset, but I'm doing it in a print, you know, focus, and I'm also not limiting my sales by selling a digital image, so I still get, you know, bigger print sales. Does that make sense at all?

Andrew Hellmich: It does absolutely. So nearly everyone takes the album because it's a no brainer. Just it makes financial sense to take the album.

Audrey Woulard: It does, yeah, because, you know, if I just tell people, "Hey, I sell an album for $2,800." it sounds like, "Oh, yeah, you know, you're selling it for a lot of money." But, and I say, "Hey, I sell it all the time," then people can't understand it. But if I really break down that, it's like, it's, I'm really giving them a lot with that figure.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

Audrey Woulard: And that's why it sells itself.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. And then it sounds like people still they buy a hero image for the wall, is that on top of the album.

Audrey Woulard: On top of the album. So they'll usually get, I would say, on average, an average one. My last one, 211 by 14, 116 by 20. That's like an average. Some people will get a couple of bigger ones, but usually it's like that: 11 by 14, a couple of 8 by 10s, and then 116 by 20 or 20 by 24.

Andrew Hellmich: So is that to display together, all together as a collection on one wall, or is that to spread around the house and give away?

Audrey Woulard: Usually it's spread around the house and to take to their offices.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. Got it, got it.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah. That's why I get a lot of the 11 by 14s or 8 by 10s. Those usually go in their office.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. So is this an in person sales session, or is this all happening over zoom? Or. .

Audrey Woulard: So, um, gosh, I do everything you know, my own way. So I've always sold online before the pandemic.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: By Zoom online, or, literally just, here's the gallery.

Audrey Woulard: Well, Zoom didn't exist then.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, that's true.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, I know. I'm really dating myself today, am I not? So, no, I've never used Zoom because I never had to. So I put them in a gallery.

Andrew Hellmich: On something like Pixieset or Pic-Time, or something like that?

Audrey Woulard: Well, I had one. It's called, well, the one that I use is, it's from a company called Into the Darkroom, that they no longer sell it. But it's just a gallery, nothing fancy. You can put music to it, you know. But the hidden gem with it, is this, and this is one of those little rants. I'm going to say "That if it doesn't make sense, let it go."

Andrew Hellmich: Fire away, go for it.

Audrey Woulard: I do not put like an online cart, like they will never have the ability to order offline. You can only view them online. That's it. You can do nothing with those images except look at them online, which they have a deadline to do it at, and I'll touch on that in one second. In order to actually order a print, then you have to talk to me. There's no way around it. So depending on who it is, let's say, if it's an older client, they'll usually just email it, you know, say, "Hey, I want picture 1,2,3,4, and 5 in these sizes." And then I'm like, "Okay, great. Give me a credit card number. Thanks so much for the order." New client, I'm usually on the phone with them. So like, for example, I had a client, you know, that literally just sent me a video of where she wanted to put print set. And so she's like, "Hey, this is the space, and these are the frames that I got." And so then I can say, "Put this picture, this picture, this picture, this picture here", and then they order it. So they always have to kind of talk to me in order to, you know, and so it's really kind of, I called it, I always have these little words. I called it the online way of in person sales. There was something like that. I used to call it because I'm still talking to them, I'm not turning them loose and say, "Hey, go have fun. I hope I get an order."

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure. So the photos that are online in the gallery, did they have big watermarks across them, so people just don't download them or screenshot them?

Audrey Woulard: No, okay.

Andrew Hellmich: Get out.

Audrey Woulard: If you can imagine this, I think I was like, you didn't expect this interview, did you?

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Audrey Woulard: So when we were children, and you were in school, when you did something wrong, what did the teacher mark the answer with, like, what color was that pen?

Andrew Hellmich: Red

Audrey Woulard: Exactly. So in the gallery, I have like a crosshair, so, like an X, very light, but it's red. And because it's red, they just do not download it, because red signals what? You did something wrong.

Andrew Hellmich: So hang on this crosshair, or this cross is this over the images lightly?

Audrey Woulard: It's over the image. Yeah, and I can send you a picture if you want to, like, have a visual. But, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. So it is like a, it's a light colored watermark.

Audrey Woulard: Exactly. It doesn't take away from it at all. Now what I will do, and that's probably those little crosshairs are for, maybe I get 85% of people, because I pick and choose what I want that watermark to look like, depending on who I'm dealing with. So I get a lot of groups of teenagers, like these teenage groups of girls.

Andrew Hellmich: I want to ask you about those, yeah.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah. And so that's an entirely different beast at times. So when I get things like that, or groups like that, I'll have the cross here. But it will have the words in the middle of the X, "Do not post on social media", in red, and they just don't, because they don't want to be seen as doing something wrong.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I don't want to do that one person out of the group.

Audrey Woulard: Right. Because if I put my logo on it, all it's telling them is that, "Hey, you had your picture taken with Audrey Willard. Why is that bad?" You don't, you know, you kind of have to think about, you have to train them for what, guess it sounds like I'm talking about like a circus animal, but, you know..

Andrew Hellmich: It's a teenager. It's the same thing.

Audrey Woulard: Right. But, but, yeah, you have to, kind of, like, train them, so that color red helps so much, and no one thinks about that.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I love that. So, like, I'd love to see an example of that when we get off and I can share it with the listener.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah, I'll send it to you for sure.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. And the other thing you've talked a lot about is returning clients. So do you do anything to incentivize the clients to come back? Are they getting a discount on the next shoot? Are they getting it for free?

Audrey Woulard: No. Because if I start giving things away for free, I'm just conditioning them that they never have to pay me. But no, I'm very friendly with my clients, like I'm professional, yes, right? But we have a very friendly rapport where I'm now seen as like a friend, if that makes any sense?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Audrey Woulard: So I'm checking up on them. I'm saying, "Hey, you know how is so and so doing? I know it's softball season, you know, how's the scores?" You know, I keep in touch with them that way. I don't want our relationship to be very, very business focused. Although they know me, they know, you know, we keep it very professional in a way. But they very much know my kids and my kids birthdays. That's kind of how I do it, where, if you heard this saying, people like to do business with people they like. And I keep that mantra in the back of my head a lot. So some you know, I'm not perfect, I screw up, and because they like me, I get away with it. So, but, but, yeah, I don't do incentives, I don't do discounts, I don't do any of that. Because, you know, like I said, I'm just conditioning the client base not to say if someone does that, they're not taking you seriously. I'm not saying that, like at all. I think perception is reality. And you know, some things work for certain businesses, some things don't. And with mine, I think if I started doing that, I would be kind of, you know, asked to do a lot of things for free, so I just choose not to open that door.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, got it. Now, there's so many things I want to ask you, but I did read something that was interesting. It was an interview that you did. It was a long time ago, and I believe that when you started your business, you didn't want to show your face as part of your branding. You kept yourself off your website, off your social media. Is that true?

Audrey Woulard: That is very true. That is very true.

Andrew Hellmich: Why?

Audrey Woulard: I really want it to be known for my work and not for me. Because this is when I was, when I was just getting out there, you know, it's, I think it's a little different now because of social media. There was no social media, you know, then. But I wanted it to be very much focused on my work. My work is what you want. You know, I didn't want to have to sell me at that point. I wanted to sell my work, and I was just a happy bonus. So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that mindset back then? Is that because you think it's because you were an emerging new photographer? Or, because you're a black woman, you know, operating or trying to attract white clients? Is that, am I way off base there?

 
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Andrew Hellmich: Right. So the group sessions are a good thing. Like, you'd always promote those. You recommend those.

Audrey Woulard: Oh, I love them. I mean, it's free marketing. You know, from a money perspective, it's more time, but the marketing is through the roof.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I love it. That's so good. Audrey, you have been absolutely amazing. You are just an incredible guest. What a photographer. Love your business and your business model. Love everything you shared.

Audrey Woulard: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: If a photographer wants to learn from you, work with you, particularly if they photograph teens or want to, how do they do that?

Audrey Woulard: So I have a teaching website, and it is awteaches.com, and under, you know, I've got different tutorials of human lighting, editing and things like that. And I also have a really and I'm not biased by any means, but I have a really good Facebook group that is so supportive, so fun. You don't have to just photograph teens. I mean, they photograph weddings, commercial, you know, frogs. We don't care. We just like having people there. And so that's on Facebook: AW Teaches.

Andrew Hellmich: Excellent.

Audrey Woulard: So they can join us there. And I'm very active there.

Andrew Hellmich: Great. So they can ask questions about lighting business, and you'll answer those questions.

Audrey Woulard: Absolutely. They can ask whatever.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. I'll add links to those in the show notes for today's episode when it goes live, I'll add links to your Instagram, which the listener has to go and visit, and also your website. Just last question, Audrey, you're obviously amazing with light, you're shooting with off camera flashlight. Do you have an assistant with you when you're out on location?

Audrey Woulard: Yes, and it's so funny, be, okay. So yes, I had my assistant. And my husband, he stay got mad. When he got mad ,he says "Why are you paying him all that money just to hold the light?" I'll come hold it.

Andrew Hellmich: So he's your assistant now, is he?

Audrey Woulard: Just for, like, he'll hold the light, that's it. And then, usually, because now our kids are all adults, so like, kind of what we do now is he's, like, you know, "Why are we paying for an assistant?" If he says, just hold light, I'll hold it, and he'll hold the light, and then we'll go, like, for dinner, like, after a session.

Andrew Hellmich: That's pretty cool. Hang on, you just said your kids are growing up. You've got six kids, all boys.

Audrey Woulard: No, four. So, family of six.

Andrew Hellmich: Family of six, so four boys. I'm one of four as well. So you're crazy.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm one of four boys. So you said they're all grown up. You don't look that old.

Audrey Woulard: Thank you. Our third son just turned 21 yesterday.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, congratulations. That's fantastic.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So how long have you been shooting for?

Audrey Woulard: Um, 18 years.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal.

Audrey Woulard: Go back 18 years.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, you are amazing at what you do. Amazing.

Audrey Woulard: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Audrey, thank you so much for being a guest. It's been a pleasure.

Audrey Woulard: Thank you. This is fun.