346: John DeMato – How to build a successful personal brand photography business

346: John DeMato – How to build a successful personal brand photography business

Andrew Hellmich:         Today's guest describes himself as a lifestyle photographer & Storytelling Strategist. As a former TV producer, he has over 19 years of production experience, and he's been featured as a lifestyle photography expert on NBC Universal daytime talk and reality shows. He predominantly works with business owners, to produce branded lifestyle portraits and other image content. His aim for his clients is to present them as superheroes, but still keep them relatable at the same time. In addition to the photography side, he works with his clients by educating them on how to leverage their photos for their websites, social media, bios, publications, presentations and advertisements. I'm talking about New York based photographer, John DeMato and I'm rapt to have him here with us now. John, welcome to the podcast.

John DeMato:               Well thank you. After that wonderful intro. I don't know where we're going to go from there.

Andrew Hellmich:         Well maybe you can start by telling us how you went from TV producer to photographer.

John DeMato:               Sure. A lot of stress, resentment, anger, and being pissed off most of the time. That's pretty much what inspired me to get the hell out of TV.

Andrew Hellmich:         Well, I mean, we already shooting then.

John DeMato:               Actually I started taking photography a little bit more seriously, probably around, I was probably about four years into my television career and we did a story on headshot photographer, Peter Hurley. He was a guest expert on the show taking portraits of these teenagers who had some make-overs. And when we went to the studio in Manhattan, I was just blown away, first of all by his camera, he was shooting Hasselblad at the time. I'm like, I don't know what the hell that is, but that looks amazing. And, and the photos that he was shooting were so vivid and bright and I'm talking about the expression, I mean the colors and everything were fantastic as well.

John DeMato:               Obviously it's a Hasselblad. But the fact that he drew out such amazing expressions out of these people, it hooked me. And at the time I was just, you know, fooling around with a camera, just taking pictures of my coworkers and walking around New York city, taking street photos and I'm like, can I show you some of my work? And maybe you could tell me if I'm any good. And that kind of sparked it. And then around 2012 is when I started to take it a little more seriously. That's when he started the PH2PRO thing that he was doing before became the now Headshot Crew and I got into headshots and I found it really compelling and interesting. And that's what really sparked the whole thing.

Andrew Hellmich:         Right. So was that your then your first foray into professional photography getting paid for what you do? Was it head shots?

John DeMato:               Yes. And specifically studio headshots. And by studio Andrew, I'm talking about my living room in Astoria, Queens and to this day is still technically my studio, but I don't really shoot too much in the apartment anymore. But that is where I started to get paid. Yes. And then it was 2014 is when I quit my television job and um, was kind of just trying to figure out what I was going to do. Next thing you know, I'm like, you know, why don't I like this headshot thing, let me do that. And that's what started the business of DeMato Productions was headshots.

Andrew Hellmich:         So you hadn't replaced your TV producing income with head shots before you left the TV job?

John DeMato:               No, I jumped out a window, had no safety net other than what I had saved. I mean I had some money to fall back on fortunately, but I had no education whatsoever on how to run a business and I'm still learning how to run a business as we speak. You know, as far as the initial leap, no. No idea what I was doing at all.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay. Well can you talk me through and share what happened that first year or two? Just briefly, how did you go from nothing to generating headshot bookings and making an income?

John DeMato:               Well, what essentially happened is I didn't make much money on the headshots. I made a little bit of money, but what I was doing is hedging my bets by still offering video production services because at the end of the day, you know, I've been doing producing for a long time and what that entails is the work behind the camera as well as writing as well as directing in addition to editing. So I was really kind of doing more of that during that time. And it was also during that first year or so where I was also fooling around with other things like working with different types of entrepreneurs with different types of promo videos.

John DeMato:               So it was really all over the place. And again, I was just kind of scrapping together whatever I could to make it work. And it was during that time that I started to get myself out into the world a little bit more and go to networking events and starting to meet solo preneurs and entrepreneurs because up until that point I had no idea what the hell any of that was because there was no need for me to ever know about it because I was always working in broadcast television. So there was no need for me to extend beyond that reach. But once I did, that's when I started to talk to people and kind of gravitate towards different types of industries and, and what these people are doing and kind of starting to get the groundwork for hearing the different types of pain points that the people that I ultimately would serve exclusively happened during that time.

Andrew Hellmich:         So from there, did you actually classify yourself or describe yourself as a headshot photographer or did you go from there to, you know, personal branding or lifestyle photographer?

John DeMato:               You know, it's funny you bring that up Andrew, because for about the first two to two and a half years, I had difficulty classifying myself because what I would do is when I would meet someone, say at a networking event or through a colleague of mine, a friend, and they're like, what do you do? I'm like, well, I'm a video producer and I shoot photos on the side. And that's what I said for years. It took me about, like I said, around two and a half years to finally say I'm a photographer. And at that time I didn't classify myself as a headshot photographer because by that point I had then expanded to event work and by event work, I mean networking events and well also private parties.

John DeMato:               And I've done my fair share of bar mitzvahs and sweet sixteens. I can tell you that, and grew to hate that. And then ultimately it finally took me a couple more months, probably more towards between my third and fourth year of business where I ran into a personal branding expert at an event who really enjoyed my photos. We started a conversation, developed the relationship. Next thing I know, six months later I'm getting a phone call. Hey John, I am putting a book out about branding. I have no social media. My publisher is pissed at me. We need to start putting stuff out there. And that's when she turns to me and says, well, I like the way you shoot stuff, so what can you do for me? And that was where the branded lifestyle portrait niche that I've created was born basically from that conversation and from that very first shoot back in 2016.

Andrew Hellmich:         Wow. Okay. I'm going to come back to around that period, but if someone asks you today, you run into someone at a networking event and they say, John, what do you do? What's your answer today?

John DeMato:               Oh, I'm a branded lifestyle portrait photographer and I'll light you up like a Christmas tree. If you let me.

Andrew Hellmich:         I'll love it. So what about the term personal branding photographer? That's something I and my listeners here, we hear that term a lot. Is that something that's familiar to you or that you hear in your market?

John DeMato:               That's funny you bring that up Andrew. I just had a conversation about this very term and wrote a blog about it. Actually, I hear it all the time and it is something that I shoot, but one of the issues that I have with that phrase, it's kind of bastardized at this point by our industry, by our community of photographers.

John DeMato:               I feel that that phrase is heavily loaded and comes with a lot of elements to it, and I see a lot of photographers, specifically headshot photographers leverage that phrase, and I feel that it's mislabeled when a headshot photographer uses it because when I think of personal branding, I don't think of the one big shot because it's impossible to encapsulate a business owner's entire business personality sensibilities and how they serve others with one image. I do believe that head shots are absolutely important because at the heart of it, that is one of the foundational pieces of my work, but when it comes to the way that people present themselves, I feel that it's a bit farfetched to classify yourself as a personal branding photographer if you're simply shooting headshots. Now I know that a ton of people will disagree with me, but I'm okay with that.

Andrew Hellmich:         Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't think of a headshot as a personal brand photo. It can be part of that portfolio, but I don't think it's a, like you said, it's not one image.

John DeMato:               Exactly. Exactly. It is a piece of a much larger pie and I feel that especially with the people that I serve, I serve speakers who are also authors and facilitators as well as other expert based business owners. A lot of these people come into the game, into this business kind of similar to the way that I did where they don't know what the hell they're doing and they're just kind of figuring things out and when they come across someone who presents themselves in a way that says, yeah, your whole personal brand will be encapsulated in this one image. I have a problem with that because the work that I do is extremely extensive and it's very detailed and it has a lot of layers and nuances to it.

John DeMato:               And I barely call it personal branding photography because you know, I use branded lifestyle portraits for a very specific reason because you know, the way that I break down my services are branded portraits, which would represent headshots and looking into the camera type portraits. And then the lifestyle portrait component of it, which are the day to day activities captured very candidly, whether they're working on technology or with a person or in front of the room. So for me, you know, that phrase has a very powerful meaning and I feel that it should be properly leveraged by those who are practitioners behind the camera.

Andrew Hellmich:         So in your experience, when you start talking to a potential client, whether you've been referred to them or they've sought you out, what term are they using when they describe the kind of photography that...

John DeMato:               They're a mess, they're a mess. And I'm really happy that you brought that point up because one of the things that I really seek to change about the way that the community that I serve understands and sees the value of what photographers who serve that community do is by putting into the vernacular the phrase branded lifestyle portraits or at the very least lifestyle photography. Because what a lot of my clients do, and it drives me insane. I just had a client last week who did this and I have to yell at her about her Facebook. She put up a Facebook post with all the images and she labeled it "2020 headshots drove me mental."

John DeMato:               But that's what we're up against as photographers. When you're working within a certain niche, it is essentially up to you as the expert, as the authority in your space to educate those that you serve in a way that lets them know that, Hey, this is not called that. This is in fact called this. Here's why, and here's why this information is valuable to you. So that's why I am constantly peppering my audience with content that consistently leverages the phrase branded lifestyle portraits and lifestyle photography and branded photos, things of that nature because it takes time. It takes time to create that kind of change. And I know that I'm up against it.

Andrew Hellmich:         You mentioned that your audience or who do you see as your audience.

John DeMato:               The speakers, authors, expert based business owners. Essentially the people who are looking to promote their keynote work, their stage work, their facilitation work, and they have multiple revenue streams with different, they have books, so they need to promote all of these different revenue generating vehicles and some of them are slightly nuanced than others.

John DeMato:               And as a result, it's up to me to kind of strategize with them the best types of branded photos and lifestyle photos that work to visually punctuate the sentiments of every single story that they want to tell. You know, and in some cases those stories are joyful. In some cases they're vulnerable. But at the end of the day, the key for me is to provide them with a wide emotional spectrum of images for their image content portfolios that they leverage across all of their channels.

Andrew Hellmich:         Right. Okay, I want to get into what you actually supply, but when the phone rings or you know, you get an email inquiry from a potential client about a shoot, are you dealing generally with the speaker or do they have a PR agent? Do they have a stylist? Who are you working with?

John DeMato:               Generally speaking, the first point of contact is the speaker, him or herself. And in most cases they come to me by referral. Very, very, very rarely do they find me on Google. It's usually, especially at the level at which I seek to, the type of client that I would like to work with, that I work with best. Those types of folks have a team. So for some clients the first point of contact will be the speaker, but then subsequent conversations will be with their team in some shape or form.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay. Did you try and initiate a phone call if the inquiry comes by email? Like, what do you want to do first? How do they progress through your, I guess your system to take from inquiry to shoot?

John DeMato:               It's really about me gauging the temperature of where they are in their decision making process. Are they seeking awareness, are they ready to make a decision? You know, is it down to me and some other people or are they just looking to get to know me and kinda, you know, get within the nurturing funnel that I have with all my content. But ideally what I would like to do is always get them on the phone because I cannot literally stop talking about this stuff and I don't use any kind of kitchy or interesting or you know, subversive sales tactics or scarcity mindset. I'm just talking to them about their situation and how I can help. It's really that simple.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay. So let's say you have me on the phone, I'm a keynote speaker and say I've got a book coming out and my agent said you need to get some social media happening. How does that conversation go? Do we start planning the shoot? Do we talk about styling and where the location, what happens?

John DeMato:               The first question that I have is what are you trying to do with these photos? Because I know they may have a book coming out, but what I really want to get to is where are they trying to go with this book? Because a book is never usually the final destination. It's simply a piece of the pie for them to progress in other areas of their business. Maybe they want to get on stages, maybe they want more media hits, maybe they want to indirectly promote their mastermind group or their community or whatever the case is. They are all so different but similar at the same time. It's important for me to just kind of figure out who they are and where they want to go as of today and then the initial conversation progresses where I talk a little bit about their style and you know a little bit more in detail about their business model and that kind of thing.

John DeMato:               I don't initially hit him over the head with any kind of pitch or anything in the first call. Unless if they say, I need photos next week, what do we need to do? And then that's when we talk about scheduling a pre-session strategy call. I do not shoot any person in front of my camera unless if I talk to them with a... I have a prescribed about 30 or so questions that I ask every branded lifestyle portrait client before they step in front of the camera because I want to learn the wrinkles and the nuances of what makes them them and the only way to do that. So I basically tap it to my TV producer brain. And that's literally where this questionnaire came from. It came from doing thousands of interviews over the course of, you know, 10, 12 years. And what I've done is created questions in a way that will elicit the kind of responses that'll kind of give me a sense of their personality, their style in front of their clients. What kind of books they read that inspire their thought leadership, their process with their clients. What does working with a client look like? What does brainstorming an idea look like? What are their hobbies? Are they a family person? All of these different things will then clue me in into the types of outfits they need to wear. The locations that we shoot, the types of personality looks that we're going for with through their expression and body language, and then from there that's when it's all locked in.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay. So I'm guessing that when they come to your website, even if they've come via referral, that they're probably on your pricing page and I can see you've got packages there from two and a half thousand dollars up to five and a half thousand dollars. There's three packages there is the middle one, the most popular one, the three and a half thousand dollars package.

John DeMato:               Yeah, it is. It is by design too? Yes.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay. And that's what a lot of photographers do. So that's why I asked. But let's say, okay, I want to go ahead with this three and a half thousand dollars package. Then what you're saying is we don't book that in right now. We book in a strategy call first discussing everything, plan it all out, and then schedule the shoot.

John DeMato:               Well what will usually happen is towards the end of that call. So basically what I'm doing with those questions is to create a shot sheet. And with that shot sheet, I'll break it down into the bare bones, you know, photos with them on technology, head shots dat, dat, dat, dat, dat down the line, right. And then what that'll do is key me into thinking about, all right, where the hell are we going to shoot this? So then that's when I'll ask them, you know, do you work at home? Do you work at a coworking space? Are you all over the place? What does it look like? And then from there, as I'm getting those answers, that's when I can start writing down ideas. Because if they're local in New York city, I'll either know whether or not I'm going to their place or we're going to their coworking place or we're going to one of their friend's offices or we're going to rent an office space in New York, whatever the case may be, if they are abroad or if they're in another part of the country. That's when I really need to ask them where we're going to shoot because I don't know their towns or their neighborhoods where they live. So it is fleshed out throughout the pre-session strategy call where we shoot and when we shoot.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay. So then on the shoot day, most things, you've got your run sheet, you've got your shot list and I'm guessing the client has a pretty good idea of you know how this is going to all work in this four hour session.

John DeMato:               Absolutely. They don't get off the phone with me with that pre-session call until I literally go over every line item in that shot sheet because they're doing homework because they need to put together the amount of outfits that will match the amount of lifestyle scenarios and headshot and branded portrait to the camera shots that we're going to capture for them. They're also going to figure out what are the books that they're going to bring that I'm going to shoot them reading. They're also going to figure out the different props that they're going to bring. That will be either as an aside within the environment of one of the lifestyle shots or I'm going to shoot those elements directly, but they're doing their homework as we go and they know exactly what we're going to be shooting. There is no guesswork.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay, got it. Got it. With that middle package, you're saying they get up to 120 images and you're saying that's four months worth of content. How do you sort of get those two numbers to match up? Why is 120 images four months worth of content?

John DeMato:               Well, I put that there as a basic type of thermometer and let them see exactly what they're getting. The reality is is those images last a hell of a lot longer than that because what that takes into account is 30 days of one post every day using a photo and nothing else. And obviously, you know, my clients, they're doing video, they're posting selfies, they're doing all different kinds, they're on podcasts, they're doing different things so that those images are not the one and only piece of visual content that they leverage. I just say four months. You know what? That's actually a very good point. What I should put there is at least four months and at least eight months, and at least you know I should put that because that's actually more accurate.

Andrew Hellmich:         And so are you collating or curating the images that you supply them? So they're suitable for Facebook, Instagram, are you capturing some video for their stories or do you just supply them straight up, high res images and they have to do with them whatever they want to do.

John DeMato:               I'm so burned out from video, Andrew, the thought of doing live video makes me want to throw up. So no, I'm not doing that. And by the way I get so many inquiries for video because people know my background and I'm like, no thank you for now. At some point I might revisit that when I can hire a trustee producer/editor that I can work with and then I can just work on the concepts and then have someone do all the leg work. But for now, no video. But in terms of the images themselves, what I do after the session is sit down with them with my laptop and we go through every single image and we talk about how they can use the image, whether or not the image sucks and they want to get rid of it if it's unflattering or it's too in line with two shots that proceeded it. The point being is that the strategy doesn't end when the camera goes in the bag.

Andrew Hellmich:         So when does this happen, John? Does this happen immediately after the shoot or when you get back?

John DeMato:               Yes.

Andrew Hellmich:         Right.

John DeMato:               Well. Okay, so in some cases, in some cases it'll happen the day after and we'll do a Skype call or whatever. I'll share the screen and I'll look at it. But honestly, I know it sounds like a lot, but the fact that the matter is, is that usually, especially if it went really well and they're really excited, they might be tired from doing all the work with me, but they're jazzed up because they want to see the pictures. It's kind of like when I was a kid, my grandmother, my Italian grandmother on Christmas morning would literally sit in front of me as I unwrapped the gift she gave me. And then it's all about her expression on her face. That's kind of how I feel when I look at my clients looking at their photos.

Andrew Hellmich:         Yeah, I agree. I agree. How can the listener access or get signed up to your email list? Where's the best place to go to do that?

John DeMato:               They can go to my website, JohnDeMato.com and a pop up will come up, but if you don't want to wait 10 seconds for that to pop up, I'm actually in the process of changing my opt in as we speak. So the URL, I think it's going to be JohnDeMato.com/personal-branding.

Andrew Hellmich:         Okay, great. Well. I'll add a link to that before this goes live into the show notes and also I'm guessing the best place for the listener to see more of what you do is that JohnDeMato.com?

John DeMato:               That's correct. And follow me on the socials DeMatophoto and DeMato Productions.

Andrew Hellmich:         I'll add links to all those in the show notes as well so the listener can easily find you. Just to finish off John, well let me ask you about a hypothetical. Let's say you were going to move to Australia next week and you're going to start over with your business. You wanted to pursue what you're doing right now. What would you do to get started quickly?

John DeMato:               First thing I would do is find all of the professional speaking organizations in Australia and start to figure out who I know that knows those people and start conversation and intros and then the second thing I would do is get really drunk off of the beer that you guys make cause that's pretty good. And then wait for the phone to ring if that happens.

Andrew Hellmich:         Nice. I just quickly, let's say you knew someone that knew a speaker. Do you ask for an email introduction? What do you ask for? How do you get that connection?

John DeMato:               Email introduction. It's one of these things where even though social is so ubiquitous and we could talk to anybody, that's not the way that people don't want to, just, you know, you don't just walk into someone's house not having met them. And to me, picking up the phone and just cold calling is kind of like that. So what I like to do is start luke warm. I don't even direct message people I don't really know either unless if it's a friend connection on LinkedIn or something of that nature. But essentially what I do is get permission from the person who is making the introduction to let me know where I can start. If it's email, if it's, usually it's email, I'll get the phone number, we set up a time to call and that's when we call. I don't just like bum rush them with a phone call immediately.

Andrew Hellmich:         Got it. Got it. I love it. I love it.

Andrew Hellmich:         Yeah. One thing I didn't ask you, because I think we've got sort of straight into it so quickly, is how many sessions are you shooting these personal branded lifestyle portrait sessions?

John DeMato:               Well, I'm up and down. I'm up and down. Honestly, you know, there have been months this year where I didn't shoot one and I've done other things. But now December is coming. It's going to be the biggest month I've ever had in my life. I'm going to be shooting three in Miami. I'm going to be shooting six for the National Speakers Association. I mean, those are mini sessions, but the point is, is it's up and down. My goal for 2020 is three to four middle packages per month. That's the goal. And then I'm going to create that branded lifestyle portrait day thing where it's an hourly thing. I'm charging them 1000 bucks an hour and I'm looking to do that maybe once a quarter, maybe once every other month, depending on what kind of a waitlist I could create.

Andrew Hellmich:         So is it $100,000 business? Do you think that's achievable for anyone going into branded lifestyle, portrait photography?

John DeMato:               It damn sure better because that's my goal and way more than but yes, yes..

Andrew Hellmich:         Are you anywhere near that now?

John DeMato:               I'm going to be somewhere in the mid seventies by the end of the year and it'll be a new record. Every year that I've been on my own I've gone up at least 10, 20 grand. So. It's modest. I'm not anywhere near where I want to be, but I'm extremely grateful for the opportunity and I still cannot fucking believe that I'm making a living off of this to be completely honest with you. It's amazing.

Andrew Hellmich:         That's awesome.

John DeMato:               It's amazing. And I, I, I love this stuff so much. I want to talk about it with photographers. I want to talk about it with speakers on stage too. And I want to shoot and then teach photographers eventually how to do branded lifestyle portrait and how to shoot event photography, those online courses. That's down the line. But that's where I see myself because that's...At a certain point, I'm an extremely physical shooter. So rolling around on the floor. Can't be doing that forever.

Andrew Hellmich:         True, true. John, you've been super generous, mate. Thank you so much for sharing what you have. I can't wait to get this out and share with listeners. Mate, thank you so much.

John DeMato:               Thank you for having me. This was great.