347: Wendy Yalom – Build the life you want with personal brand photography

Andrew Hellmich:    Today's guest started out shooting weddings and that's what she did from 2001-2011 after earning her degree in fine art photography. In 2011, she was voted Best San Francisco Wedding Photographer. And that's when she decided to move in another direction - to Personal Branding Photography. Today, she is recognised as an International Leader in Personal Branding Photography. Her work has been featured on countless websites PLUS, The New York Times, Cosmopolitan, Forbes, San Francisco Magazine, Yoga Journal and more. She says on her about page, "For 30 weeks of the year when I'm not at home in San Francisco, I'm travelling the world photographing inspiring people in spectacular locations." A typical year right now includes 100 personal branding shoots and mentoring up to 20 photographers. Here's a really cool part, her Personal Branding photography starts at $4000 and she's booked well in advance. I'm talking about the lovely Wendy Yalom and I'm rapt to have her with us now. Wendy, welcome!

Wendy Yalom:        Andrew? I'm so flattered by that intro. I just, the smile on my face is massive and I'm so happy to be here talking with you. Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich:    It's my pleasure. And the funny thing is, you know, I think only a few years ago, if we mentioned the term or the genre, personal branding photography, we may not even know what that was. How did you discover personal branding photography?

Wendy Yalom:        Oh, I'm so glad we're starting here because you're right. In fact, when I started offering personal branding photography, there is an ING personal branding when I started versus personal brand like it is now, it was such a small market that I even tried to trademark the phrase, but that's how few people were offering it. And so the way I discovered it was I had a couple of girlfriends who were coaches and they needed head shots. And so as a masterful wedding photographer, I did the thing that all great masterful wedding photographers do, which is recommend them to a headshot photographer. Because I didn't do that. And they both said to me, we want something more than a traditional headshot. We want photos where our clients can feel us. And I didn't understand. I knew that both of them were doing transformational work, so I knew they lived in that feeling realm, but I didn't quite understand how that related to photos, but I was game.

Wendy Yalom:        There was are two of my best girlfriends, so I was like, sure, let's do it. I took photos for them and they were blown away. To me, they just looked like great portraits but they saw something different in themselves and they ever seen in photos of themselves before and it was this authenticity and connection and so I started offering a version of what is today personal brand photography. That was more of a headshot, like a more, I think I call this something like a connected headshot or a not so corporate headshot, the evolution to personal brand photography now where we see these incredible photos that people take in gorgeous locations and they're styled almost like magazine shoots happened around 2013, 2014 with, I think I credit this one, coach Marie Forleo, who is a well known business coach in now the worldwide, but as an American business coach and she came out with this website where there are these photos of her in New York on the streets in New York. And it was so different from what websites would look like and tell them before that websites were these sort of like glam photos, you know, classic white backdrop, super glam makeup, like bright studio lights, like body conduct dresses. They were just so specific. And so she really showed us her and it was then that I started to cultivate a version of that and pretty quickly I got clients who wanted their own version of that kind of photography. So that's where I stepped into it. And that's where I think it was really born. Did I answer your question?

Andrew Hellmich:    No, it did. So back then when you made that transition from weddings and you're saying it's personal brand photography, not personal branding, is that right?

Wendy Yalom:        I actually call it personal branding photography. Some people call it personal brand photography. They're the same thing. I think it's just a semantics.

Andrew Hellmich:    Okay, so when you moved into that direction, was that term even around?

Wendy Yalom:        No, and I'm going to tell you a story that is going to sound like I am crediting myself with coming up with this name or not myself actually, but a client of mine, and I don't know if this is true, but I'll tell you what my experience was, which is I was working with this one client, Gina Devee. She's an incredible also success coach in the States and has a big reach. She's one of my early clients who had big reach and sort of like I think probably my early most influential client. I'll say that. And I was calling my photo shoots and being like VIP portrait photo shoot with Wendy. And she was looking at my website cause I was so excited at this website that was finally, you know, showing that I did this other kind of work and she's like, why don't you call it personal branding photography? And I was like, okay. And I don't know if that's where it originated, but I hadn't seen it before that she just came up with it out of nowhere. So I'm going to give her credit and

Andrew Hellmich:    Nice.

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich:    So did you actually then developed, you know, what you call personal brand photography yourself or did you go and do a course? Did you hire a coach? Did someone train you how to do this?

Wendy Yalom:        Such a great question. At the time I saw people trying to serve the community. I wanted to serve in the community. I serve as spiritual entrepreneurs. There are speakers, authors, coaches, online educators who mostly are doing something in the realm of self development. And so that's who I'm serving. And so the way I saw them being served with photos was like I saw some people offering what I call personal brand photography, that we're nailing it with the experience of how they were just bringing out the authenticity in their clients but not nailing it when it came to the quality of their photos. And then I saw some people who are doing really beautiful photos, but I felt like weren't creating a relationship that the viewer could experience with the subject. Looking at those photos, meaning like what I really want for my clients is that when viewers see their photos, they feel like they're sharing a real moment with that person.

Wendy Yalom:        And so I saw people nailing one or the other, but I didn't see people doing both. And so I developed that particular style and I'm sure there were people doing a similar thing around the world at the time. There weren't many. There was probably a half a dozen of us, but people are tracking trends. So that is something that I created independent of any course. I then went of course onto studying like the business of photography and I actually, let me take that back because I had started doing that as a wedding photographer. Understanding like sales and marketing and how to really have a business in addition to being a photographer early on. But yeah, the what I think of is my version of personal brand photography or new photography I created.

Andrew Hellmich:    Nice. I love that. When I look at your website, your social media profiles and feeds know I can see you are going hard after those, you know those hashtags and that term personal brand photography, personal branding, photography, are client's actually searching for that term or is it only other photographers?

Wendy Yalom:        God it's such a good question and I wish I knew the answer to that honestly. I'd be great. Now a lot of photographers are searching for that term. That's become like a term in the industry. I do think there are some clients who are searching for that term. You know when it comes to marketing we are just continued to just test, test what works. You know. Other terms we use are like creative headshots, website photos, you know, entrepreneurial photos. We sort of, we throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks. And so I think that clients are becoming more educated about that term. And I think you are right on in that it's really the majority of people who are using that term aren't photographers

Andrew Hellmich:    That's the feeling I get. But I don't know if many people would be searching for that term. Well they probably are looking for the things that you just said, you know, website, photographer, website, headshot photos, things like that to grow their brand.

Wendy Yalom:        What I imagine happens for clients and who knows, but I can imagine there's a handful out there who either come to me through some other channel Pinterest or somebody refers them or Instagram, whatever. Like they find my photos somewhere and then they go there. Then they see what it's called and so then maybe they know and start searching for that term. I think people are becoming more and more educated because the term is getting used more and more frequently. Like I said when I started, you would put that term into Google and you'd get like, I think there is something like 60,000 you know, 60,000 matches. And so when we applied for the trademark it was like that was nothing. Now you put it in, there's like six million. So yeah, I think it's growing.

Andrew Hellmich:    What happened with the trademark thing?

Wendy Yalom:        It was still too general. I needed to add 'the' to make it trademark and you know, in retrospect I'm really glad I didn't do that because then for anybody who's ever decided to trademark something like this, you end up becoming like a full time litigator.

Andrew Hellmich:    Yes.

Wendy Yalom:        Which is like no fun. And who cares if I had that, you know, I didn't quite get that, how or what the purpose was? Somebody told me to trademark it. So I thought, okay, I'll do that.

Andrew Hellmich:    So you've been doing this for a while now, you know, coming up to I guess, close enough to 10 years. What about the photographer that's listening? Let's say they are a wedding or a portrait photographer and they love the idea of working with these entrepreneurs or solopreneurs and they want to move into this field. Is there a big enough market?

Wendy Yalom:        For sure. I think this is such a great question Andrew. And yes, I believe there's a big enough market and I believe not only is there a big enough market of people needing these kinds of images, but their needs are growing. When I started doing this, you've got to think like 2012 I think. I can't remember when Instagram launched. We can look it up and find out. But Instagram at that point was still a place where you basically, you know, shared photos of your family and kids with your friends. You know, and Facebook was doing some advertising but nothing like they're doing now. And so in the years that I've been doing this, not only have the number of people who are creating businesses for themselves and deciding that they can actually build businesses that, you know, both are financially profitable and also serve their passion, but their needs for images has grown exponentially because the way they market that is through these social media channels. And the thing that brings attention in social media are great images. So yeah, I think there definitely is a market. Cool.

Andrew Hellmich:    Now don't take this question the wrong way, but...

Wendy Yalom:        Okay.

Andrew Hellmich:    So my listeners, they were asking me to find personal brand photographers, get them on the show. We want to know about this genre. And the funny thing is that I noticed, and I know listeners have said the same thing, is every time I searched for a personal brand photographer, that same photographer is also a mentor, a coach in the same space. It's like there's not enough coming from the photography side of things. They have to be mentoring as well.

Wendy Yalom:        Oh, good question.

Andrew Hellmich:    Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? And I know it's a curly one because you do both.

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah, no, I'm glad you asked. And I'll tell you why I do both and I get that. I've seen that before. Like there's a lot of people who decide that the way they are going to make a living is to teach other people to do the thing that they wish they could make a living doing. I think that's what you're talking about.

Andrew Hellmich:    Yes, that's a nice way to say it.

Wendy Yalom:        Totally. I know those people. I've seen those people online, you know for me. The choice to do mentorship was twofold. The first was I just love teaching and I have become really successful doing brand photography. You know, I make a comfortable living doing this work. So one was, I just loved teaching and I thought, and I think I'm really good at it and I enjoy creating, you know, exercises and showing other people the systems that I've put into place. I also have done a lot of work of creating really clear systems in my business. And I think there's so many photographers out there who I'm sure you hear this all the time, who take beautiful pictures and know how to make great personal connections with people but are struggling because they just don't know how to market ourselves and there's just skills that they need to learn. So part of it was just this like, Oh God, I know these things like let me teach.

Wendy Yalom:        So that's the first part. And the second piece is I love travel, I love adventure. You know this, you read that this past year actually was more like 40 weeks of travel, which is amazing. I had almost 80 brand photo shoots, a few live events, like a few other, you know, shoots over that. So it was like a full year. And also two masterclasses I taught and I'm 46 I'm approaching 50 and like as much as I love the experience of like spending 40 weeks of the year just exploring, like truth is I am getting old. And then I was like, I'm getting a lot more tired. And you know, I take the month of December off, which is really nice. But part of what I've been continuing to grow my mentorship is there will be a time where I can imagine that I'm just not able to give the kind of experience I want to give my clients cause I just don't have the energy for it. And so it's partially building that out for my, for my future. Yeah. Those are the two reasons and every, honestly, it's for the last three years I've said like I'm going to travel less. And over the last few years I've traveled more each of those years. So I'm just not even going to say it about this year because I still have the energy. I know you're a traveler too.

Andrew Hellmich:    I love it. I love it. But I don't think I work as much, well, maybe I do. Maybe I do work as much. So your travel, does that revolve around your photography business or does your photography, business revolve around your travel, if you know what I mean? Which comes first?

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah, great question. They are intertwined really because I've created a business that allows me to do things like spend a month in Paris every year. Spend a month in New York.

Andrew Hellmich:    Stop it. Stop it.

Wendy Yalom:        Right? And so it's like, yeah, I'm there for work. And I am like, I've got 10 you know, photo shoots in New York over a month or eight photo shoots in Paris over a month or so. And then from Paris it's like I'll go to... It's stupid. I like when you're meeting that promo, this happens to me a lot when I talk about my life, there's a piece of me that's like, there's this little like six year old version in my head that's like Wendy, this can't be true. And you know that it is. It's true. And so it's like it all, like the last four years I had shoots to the South of France and Italy and it's just, it's amazing where I'm, this business is now taken me and so yeah, it's like, I think they've become one in the same.

Andrew Hellmich:    Well, let's take Paris or the South of France, for example, Do you book a month in Paris and then try and find clients or do you get a booking for a shoot in Paris and then try and find more clients?

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah, that's such a great question. So there's a couple of ways that I'll go. One is I'll get a booking in Paris and then I'll promote other dates around that booking. That's one way. The other way is I typically know that every year I'm going to get a... A number of people want shoots in New York. So New York for example, like I know that May is a great month for photo shoots in New York. The days are long. Spring is upon us, so the weather is beautiful but it's not too hot yet. June is like a beautiful time to be in Western Europe. So Paris, London, you know Italy stay in like I know times of the year that are good in those places. So I'll have people who I know are going to be reaching out about New York likely because I promote that I shoot in New York and now I have a pretty good network of referrals and our marketing channels reach people and so I'll book people into May assuming that they don't have a deadline in New York or like now we actually have two shoots booked in Lake Como in June three shoots. No, two in Lake Como and one in Florida. So it's like, I know it's going to be in June, so I'll get a booking and then I'll promote, but let me back up to when I first started out because I think I've got the luxury now of having demand. People coming to me have inquiries.

Wendy Yalom:        When I first started out it was like, I remember my first time going to Paris for photo shoot and I had one client reach out and say, Hey, I know you've got a shoot with this other woman. I'm coming up next month, but we're both going to be in Paris and I think it was in June actually that year too. Or May, maybe would you be willing to come over and do it in Paris and I'll promote for you and we can see if we can get other bookings. So I was like all in and I think I charged them each like $1,700 and of course, you know, three weeks in Paris, you do not go to Paris for like two or three weeks for like $3,000. You know, it was like that first year. And I think I ended up getting like five clients.

Wendy Yalom:        And so I just started talking about it on Facebook, promoting it on Facebook. The client who had asked me how to network on social media and she said I was going to be in Paris. And so when I first started out, I was a yes and I was willing to go. Whether or not I made money, I was happy to just break even. And I would even have spent some money if it meant, you know, two weeks working in Paris. I just wanted to do the work. And then a couple of months after that I went to Florence because during that trip, one of those women I was working with in Paris, it's like, would you be willing to come to Florence in a couple of months? I was like, of course, you know? And so I think I had like three in Florence, three or four. And again it was not, I didn't make much money, but I would say yes and I even that year went to Panama for one client and so it was like, you know, that was probably $2,000 I think she put me up. So you know, all of those experiences I, I broke even, but I just said yes because I wanted it so bad. Now it's different. Like I said, now I'm able to have some control.

Andrew Hellmich:    And so do you only shoot women or is it men as well?

Wendy Yalom:        I do shoot men as well, but the majority are women. I probably shoot 95% women.

Andrew Hellmich:    Right okay. So let's say one of your clients today in Paris, if she calls you and wants another session, she knows you're going to be over there in June. If she was one of your early clients as well, your prices have more than doubled. Are those same women still booking you or they're like, Whoa, no, no, you're charging way too much now.

Wendy Yalom:        Ah, good question. Let me see. Maybe come at that first year, I have worked with a couple of those women still and no, I think that there's so much that has sophisticated and the quality of what I offer that I couldn't imagine. They would be surprised that I was charging what I'm charging now. You know? I was like figuring it out, those first shoots. It was the same with what I started as a wedding photographer. I didn't ever, you know, assist anyone. I just was, I figured it out. Like I figured it out on the job. I figured that was the best place to figure it out. And I started by charging a rate that was commensurate with like someone who is figuring it out and grew.

Andrew Hellmich:    Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. Now you've grown, you're offering more, you know, more. Yeah. Everything's different now for you to do.

Wendy Yalom:        Everything's different now. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich:    So today if you do get an inquiry or a booking for Paris, let's say, do you book a one way ticket? Do you book in for a month and know you're going to get the work? How does it work?

Wendy Yalom:        Oh my God, such a good question. Well, at this point, I usually am in Europe for usually about six weeks, June into the beginning of July. And I don't book anything until I'm pretty close to it. And I've, you know, kind of have a sense of how many clients I'm gonna get, what the dates are. I'll usually, the way it's gone the last few years actually is, um, my travel is so crazy, Andrew. So for example, like I left my house in March of last year and I spent a month on the Big Island. My family's on the Big Island and I flew from the Big Island back to the Bay Area where I live for three days. And then I went from there to like Houston, Boise, Denver, Austin, New York. And I had shoots in all of those places and I spent a month in New York and then I flew from New York to Europe and then it went from like, I can't remember, it was like Paris, South of France, UK, Sweden, Copenhagen, home. And that was like, I left at the beginning of March and I didn't get back until July 15th. And so that's how my travel works these days.

Andrew Hellmich:    Nice. That is so good.

Wendy Yalom:        It's so cool.

Andrew Hellmich:    And I want to dive into, you know, what you actually offer, what the clients are getting in just a second and also touch on your marketing. But I've heard you say our and we a couple of times. Is it just you or is there someone else working in the business with you?

Wendy Yalom:        Oh gosh, good question. I have, well, I have an amazing just assistant who handles all my client communication and helps me with my scheduling. Her name's Kiki. I feel like I couldn't live without Kiki. She's amazing. And then I have somebody who does some social media work for me. Posts keeps my Instagram professional page alive and we're, she's been on and off with me over the years. And for the last couple of years she's been doing mostly Instagram, Pinterest. And then I have someone who does post-production editing of images. She does all my photo shopping, all women, which is cool. And then I have a bookkeeper. So yeah, like the we is...

Andrew Hellmich:    It's a team. You have a team.

Wendy Yalom:        It's a team. It's a team. And then I will also say every shoot, I have a makeup artists with me and I work with some of them frequently and they'll travel with me. And then I have drivers who work with me. When I'm in cities, it's some drivers so it's like you know.

Andrew Hellmich:    You just sounded more and more glamorous the more we go on here.

Wendy Yalom:        It's, it's legit. It's legit glam.

Andrew Hellmich:    So with Kiki and the person who helps you with Instagram and social media, are they all based in San Francisco or are they all offshore?

Wendy Yalom:        Kiki, actually, they're all in the States. Kiki's in Washington state. My Instagram girl is in the Bay area. Coincidentally, she actually started working with me when I was doing weddings. So this was back before it was so virtual and then the woman who does my post productions in the Midwest, so,

Andrew Hellmich:    Wow. Fantastic. So all working remotely but all working together.

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich:    Wow. And just lastly on the travel, I know this is a big thing, particularly for wedding photographers, shooting destination weddings. What happens when you're going through customs and people, you know you get asked, are you here for work? Are you telling little fibs?

Wendy Yalom:        I do. It depends on where I am. I mean London, those guys are legit, so I always say that I'm there for pleasure because they really are. I hope nobody's listening who works for London border control.

Andrew Hellmich:    For customs?

Wendy Yalom:        Exactly. They don't mostly ask, but I usually just say pleasure.

Andrew Hellmich:    Right. But isn't Canada like even tougher than say the UK or Europe?

Wendy Yalom:        God, I mean, I don't know. Maybe I've been to Canada for work a couple of times and I probably have just said pleasure there too.

Andrew Hellmich:    So does that mean, I'm imagining that you're not carrying a lot of gear?

Wendy Yalom:        No, I don't carry a lot of gear.

Andrew Hellmich:    What do you take with you for a personal brand shoot?

Wendy Yalom:        I have a two camera bodies and two lenses, a 50 and a 35, an on camera flash, a Gary Fong. That's pretty much it. And then you know all this stuff, the batteries.

Andrew Hellmich:    So no studio lighting, no tripod, you know, light stands?

Wendy Yalom:        No, I sometimes will bring a light stand with me if like I'm going to be, I just got back from, I just had a week in New York and New York during the winter can be like hit or miss. So I brought, excuse me, a light stand with me and I can remote my flash. It's just my on-camera flash to the light stand, just to create more light. So it's pretty small. It's like a, it fits in my suitcase. It's maybe like two and a half feet when it's all folded up.

Andrew Hellmich:    Nice. Easy. Easy. So Wendy, how are your clients finding you?

Wendy Yalom:        Great question. Referral is my number one source of new clients is people who've worked with me in the past refer me. I have some referral partners. They're people who have worked with me in the past and have reach and so they refer me. Also you've seen me on, I'm on Instagram. We get clients occasionally from Instagram. We do get clients from Google. I also have referrals from web designers, stylists, people who you know are working with similar clients.

Andrew Hellmich:    So with the biggest source of clients be referrals from other clients.

Wendy Yalom:        Yes. Referrals from other clients is our number one.

Andrew Hellmich:    That's so good. What if the photographer listening is thinking, okay, I want this for me. How might fast are they going to get there if I come to you and have you helped them?

Wendy Yalom:        Oh God, great, great question. You mean as a mentor if they come to me as a mentor?

Andrew Hellmich:    Yeah.

New Speaker:        Yeah, I mean there's a couple of things that I think the photographers I've mentor walk away with. One is like a clarity about what the value is that they're offering their clients and this is what is completely at the root of everything. All my success. Like I am so clear about the value of what I offer being beyond just the number of hours I spent with the client and the number of photos I take, which is how so many photo photographers get stuck right there valuing what they offer based on the number of hours in the number of photos. So first of all, I just want to get my photographers out of that conversation and into a clarity about what the value is of what they're offering their clients beyond that. And the second thing is having the ability to communicate that clearly and consistently. So that's the second piece. And then of course deliver on that value when they're with their clients, which is a combination of understanding how to deliver an experience to your clients practically like how to just organize the details of a day and hire hair and makeup artist and certain locations and just all those kind of practical logistical questions, but also how to be with their clients to have their clients feel their presence and passionate and connection. So that's what they leave with.

Andrew Hellmich:    I love that. So are they actually with you in person or does this happen over Zoom or Skype? Do they see you shoot, is it all one on one or group? How do people learn from you?

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah, there's a couple of different ways. I work with a small number of photographers every year because the way I mentor photographers is similar to the quality of experience I offer my one-to-one clients. So there's two ways they can work with me. One is I offer masterclasses every year. I've got a couple coming up in March, they're 10 photographers in each masterclass, and then there's a month of virtual group calls afterwards. The masterclasses themselves are two day live events with me and 10 photographers in each. That's one way, and that's amazing because it's just so powerful to learn in a group. Not only do you get your own questions to answer, but you get answers to questions you didn't even know you had and the experience of like so much of, I don't know if this was your experience, Andrew, I'm curious, you know, learning business is like, it's really awkward before it's elegant.

Andrew Hellmich:    True. True.

Wendy Yalom:        Right? And so to be with other photographers who are in a similar place that you can like stumble and figure it out and talk about sales and feel uncomfortable saying what you're saying and still say it. And it's just like there's so much room for experiment. And so yeah, you can work with me either in a group, at the masterclasses that I offer a couple of times a year or I do take a limited number of one-to-one clients who I work with over Skype. And that's a four months of virtual calls. So yeah, those are the two ways.

Andrew Hellmich:    So with the masterclass, would we come to you in San Francisco? The two days, is that live or is it all online?

Wendy Yalom:        Oh, their live and they happen in different places all over the world. So I've got one in Orlando and one in San Diego, both in March. Each will be 10 photographers. The Orlando is almost halfway booked. And so those then 20 photographers will be with me for a month afterwards on a virtual classroom. So that then all happens over zoom. But for those two days we're live.

Andrew Hellmich:    Oh cool. I was so hoping you would say. Yeah, there's one in Paris, there's one in London, one in New York.

Wendy Yalom:        I've had requests, I've had requests. Yeah. Last year we were in Chicago and San Francisco and then I, I've got this actually free Facebook group for people as a mentorship group and I put it out there and where do people want and like Orlando just was off the charts. So Orlando iIt is.

Andrew Hellmich:    Wow. Nice. Cool. Well I'll add links. I know you've got a page for mentoring on your website at a, it's wendykyalom.com. I'll add links to that in the show notes, but Wendy, where is the best place for the listener to see more of your work? Learn about you and what you do?

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah, so wendykyalom.com. My website is great. People are welcome. I'd love photographers to join that Facebook group. They can search Facebook for Art and Business of Personal Brand Photography with Wendy Yalom and it'll come up in your search. They also, of course, I love having people stalk me on Instagram. I've got a personal page which is wendykyalom, which is you know, personal and business. And then I have a professional page which is @brandingphotographer. So all those places.

Andrew Hellmich:    Nice that you got that one branding photographer.

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah.

Wendy Yalom:        Is it a nightmare for you having two Instagram accounts or I'm guessing maybe not because you have someone that helps you with your Instagram.

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah. I'm so glad you asked this Andrew. Actually we're right now in the process of finally leveraging Instagram and having strategy around it. I've been managing just my own personal and I wouldn't even call it managing. I've been running my own personal cause it's fun for me and I have Gloria who does my social media, who's been running the branding photographer one and just this week we've started talking to some Instagram strategists about how to leverage that. And honestly it's so easy. I just discovered it's so easy in Instagram's newest update. Lets you toggle pretty easily between the two. So for the last few days I've been toggling between both and it's been fun. But you know, for me social media is like I don't treat it maybe with the same kind of like discipline. I treat a lot of other things in my life. It's more like I want it to be really fun for me when I go there. So I don't ever get into that space of like, Oh I have to say something nice on Instagram. You know or make something up.

Andrew Hellmich:    That's so good. Look, I'm looking at your personal profile now and wow. Life looks amazing. It really does.

Wendy Yalom:        It is so amazing. I mean I feel so lucky. I feel so fortunate and yeah, I don't know if, I'm sure you have this experience too cause you travel the world and you've got this incredible business and it's just like, it just boggles my mind.

Andrew Hellmich:    Well we're going to have listeners got thinking, come on you to wrap it up.

Wendy Yalom:        Yeah. Yes we will.

Andrew Hellmich:    Stop talking about how good life is and how good travel is. So Wendy. I'm so glad we had the chance to connect and I really got say massive thanks for coming on and sharing everything you have. I'm so looking forward to following along and also having you part of the member's Facebook group. Cause I know that listeners will be hitting you up with a bunch of questions. So massive thanks for coming on.

Wendy Yalom:        God. Happy to, Andrew, I just, I'm so appreciate you. I'm so grateful to have had this time chatting with you and I look forward to tracking you and learning more about you as time passes.

Andrew Hellmich:    Cool.