533: Murielle Sassine – Payment plans equal large sales in portrait photography

533: Murielle Sassine - Payment plans equal large sales in portrait photography

 

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest came about through a chance meeting with Iclem Senol in Sydney during Mark Rosetta's workshop a few months ago. Now, Iclem told me all about her amazing boss and studio owner, Murielle, who started off photographing weddings for 13 years, before focusing on high end portraits for the last 10 years. She says that other photographers find the way Murielle manages her home based micro studio absolutely inspiring. Now I've since learned they only offer sessions three weekdays out of the week, and their studio average sale is just under $5,000 I also heard about a $70,000 sale for one client who has now booked in two additional sessions. Iclem and Murielle are currently working on a photo book titled 'Uplifting, A Celebration of Women', which showcases women who have been affected by breast cancer. They are proud of their robust system for booking clients. And by all accounts, this sounds like a small but fantastic business operating in the very competitive Sydney market. I am so keen to learn more, and I'm rapt to say that I have Murielle from Vivid Photography and Imaging with us now. Murielle, welcome.

Murielle Sassine: Thank you so much. Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: How do you feel when you hear an intro like that?

Murielle Sassine: It makes me feel proud. I love hearing that. Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: So do I describe the business correctly that? Like I've heard, it been described as a micro studio. Is that how you would describe it?

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, definitely. I work at a very tiny space. I have a home based studio, and I've been running the studio here for a long time. I didn't always start off running from home. I had another micro studio, but it was a shop front, and I ran that for about four years on the northern beaches of Sydney, which I loved. And I opened that straight after graduating at University, where I studied photography and imaging. And then I purchased my home, and I decided to run the business out of home. And the way that it's set up is it's a very small single garage, and not even the whole garage is set up as the studio. But when you walk into my home, it's laid out so perfectly, and I sort of make it work. And I think I heard the term micro studio the first time when another professional photographer came into my home, and he was just blown away by, you know, my setup. And he was just like, this is insane, that you produce the work that you do out of such a tiny space. So, yeah, it is. I started to realize, you know, lots of other photographers, even if they do work from home, they have these mega, big spaces, but it really is tiny.

Andrew Hellmich: So is there signage at the front that people know they're turning up to your studio, or is it just hidden away in the suburbs?

Murielle Sassine: Well, live in a cul de sac, so it is hidden away. I don't get, you know, drive through traffic or anything like that. The clients that end up coming in for a photo shoot are clients that we've pretty much spoken to and booked in and given the address to, so my address isn't, pretty much on my website or anything like that. And yeah, there's a small sign outside. I also personalize it. So if I know you're coming in for a photo session, I'll write your name on a blackboard. And everyone makes a big deal about that. They love that. I personalize the experience.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so where do I see that when I'm walking up the driveway? Is there a blackboard, like an A frame blackboard that says, you know, "Welcome Andrew and Linda", or "Andrew, Linda and family"?

Murielle Sassine: No, you'd see the actual sign of my studio just outside my home. It's like a beautiful black acrylic sign. And then as you come closer to the doorway, you'll notice your side right next to the door. So yeah, it's kind of like, "Oh, I am in the right spot."

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And is that what it say, something like I said, like on the blackboard?

Murielle Sassine: It'll say, "Welcome Andrew", or "Andrew and family". Or if there's not that many people in the family, I'll actually, you know, write down their names individually, and they usually take photos of it, and they'll ask me to be in the photo, and sometimes they'll post it on their social media. And yeah, it's just a little fun, personalized way to greet someone, I guess, that's coming into your studio.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. And so when they come into the front door, do they actually go through your home? Or they walk straight into, you know, what you call your studio space?

Murielle Sassine: They actually walk through my home. So they come in and they go through my lounge room, they go through my dining room, which also opens up to my kitchen, and then they step into the studio, which, like I said, is a garage converted. You wouldn't even know that it's a garage. It matches the decor of the house.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, okay, great. Okay, so that house, like, you have to work on keeping it tidy. Like, how did you have kids? You have pets, a husband? Like, do you have to keep it up? So it's right for when someone turns up.

Murielle Sassine: Well, I've had comments say, like, "How do you keep your house so clean? Everything is so perfect." So look, I do make an effort, but it's not hard for me, because I am a very neat and tidy person. So it's second nature to me, you know, I've got my good old Dyson that I bring out and, you know, vacuum and, yeah, I'm a bit of a neat freak, so, but I do get comments like that, and I think it's important to have your home presentable for when clients walk through. I mean, definitely, if there's photographers out there that are running their studio from home, which I know there's a lot, especially in this day and age. Then I think it is very important to have that presentation aspect to your home.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure, for sure, and then so they walk through your home, and then do they go into a garage space? Like, is that the studio and the sitting room? Is that everything all in one or is there multiple rooms?

Murielle Sassine: It's everything, and it's crazy, because so half the room, I've got those paper rolls where, you know, I can set up a studio situation. If I'm doing a purchasing session or a viewing session. I call them purchasing sessions. I'll actually roll up the studio, tuck the lights away, and then move my computer desk around, and they'll actually sit on a lounge, and I'll project the images onto a large TV screen. So yeah, I actually moved furniture around. I don't have everything completely set up, so I've started to do a lot of same day purchasing sessions, and there's a bit of work involved. So after the photo shoot, I'll tuck everything away, I'll clean up the studio, and like I said, I'll move that computer desk and set up everything for the purchasing session. So it's a bit of a pain in the butt, but it is what it is, and I just deal with it, and that's how I've always done it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay? And it sounds like, I mean, I said earlier that Iclem introduced you and I for this interview. Is it just you two in the business? And is she full time with you?

Murielle Sassine: She's not full time. I've been running the business on my own for, you know, a long number of years. I've been in business for almost 24 years now as a full time photographer. I've never done anything else, so I've always worked for myself. And before Iclem started to work with me, I had employed other bookings, I guess people, if you may, and you know, they'd hang around for a little bit, or maybe they wouldn't be so good, and they'd drift off and do something else. And then I actually just put a Facebook post probably about three or four years ago. That's probably how long she's been working with me, and she answered the Facebook post, and she was the only one that actually did what was said in the Facebook post. And I actually remembered her when she phoned me, because I had done a photo shoot of her and her family. So I knew, I guess, her personality, what she was about. I had met her family, which even made me comfortable, because I think working from home, you kind of need to be able to trust that person coming into your home. So there was that automatic trust factor, which is very important to me. And I remember when she booked me as her portrait photographer, one thing I said to her is, "I love your voice over the phone. You have such a happy", and I think I said like a little bit of a sexy voice, because she's got a bit of a husky voice. And so I actually remembered her, and yeah, the rest is history. So she's been working with me since then, and we're a great team. And one of the bedrooms in my home is converted into an office. This is the room that I'm in now, and she's got her desk, I've got my desk, and we pretty much work together, and that's how it's been, and we're a great team.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you brought Iclem on, was it based on a salary? Was it a salary and commission? Was it per booking? How did you work that out?

Murielle Sassine: No, she had a full time job, and then she had her kids, so she was just looking for something during school hours. And she lives in the same suburb as me, so it was perfect. She just wanted something during school hours, and that suited me fine. So she comes in for two to three days a week, and she works for four hours at a time. And the great thing about Iclem, I suppose, is, even if it's outside those hours, if I ever want to contact her by phone, email, you know, WhatsApp, whatever it is, she'll take my call like she'll answer if clients call her, she's got her own phone. If clients call her outside those areas, she will actually pick up the phone or get back to them. And that's what I love about her, and she's invaluable to me.

Andrew Hellmich: She's definitely a go getter, because she was straight on to me at that conference and raving about you, then she followed it with emails, and she did everything right? Like, yeah, she's a real go getter, and she must be, it must be so good to have her on board with you.

Murielle Sassine: Oh, definitely. And I think I can honestly say that we have each other's backs, so I look after her as much as I can, and that's important to me, and I know she does the same for me. It's not like we're best friends, but we're very friendly with each other. We do, you know, see each other sometimes outside of the studio, but she's professional, and that's what I love about her.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so good. Now, you and I had a bit of a chat before we started recording, and we talked a little bit about the numbers, and we both decided it was going to be best if we save those for the premium members only. So. I'm not going to get into the numbers deeply, but what I will say for the listener right now is you blew me away when you told me your turnover. I was like, "Holy crap. That's amazing, like for a small studio operating at a home, that is incredible." Now I really want to share the number. I'm going to say that for members and how you get those numbers, but I did say in the intro that you had a $70,000 sale, is that right? Did I, was it meant to be 7000?

Murielle Sassine: It was two photographic sessions from a long time client, and you know, one of the sessions was in the studio, and then the other one was at their home. So an in home photographic session, which is what I market. And after calculating what the client spent with those two sessions, probably in a matter of six months, it was close to $70,000 and since then, she's booked me in for two more sessions. We're just waiting for a sports car to arrive that I checked in with her this week. It hasn't arrived yet. They've ordered a new Corvette, and then they want to take me to their holiday home.

Andrew Hellmich: Unbelievable, in Australia or overseas?

Murielle Sassine: In Australia.

Andrew Hellmich: So what are they getting for that kind of money? Is it lots of wall art? Is it lots of albums?

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, wall art. Wall art's the big thing. So they definitely purchase all their digital files. I have a pack where they get a beautiful album, all their digital files and a personalized phone app. And then in addition to that, when they come in, I'll make some suggestions for what I think would look great on their wall. And she pretty much just goes with what I suggest to her. I mean, money is no issue for them, and they've been my clients now for probably 13 or 14 years. And I think the first time she came in and had a look at her photos and signed off on her order, it was a $23,000 sale, and that was, like, 13 years ago, and I pretty much was shaking after that, and she just paid me straight away. She's like, "Here you go." And I was shaking. I actually felt sick, like I wanted to vomit, because I was like, "Wow, like, this is such a big sale", you know, and it's not wedding photography, and it only took an hour of my time, and, you know, maybe an hour of editing. And this is what she's, what she's spending. But I don't, how do I say this? You know, if you think about $70,000 or even 50,000 which was one of the sales, you know, you might think hundreds and hundreds of images, but it's not. It's just big pieces of wall art. And yeah, a few of those. You know, one's about 12,00, one is about 8000 you know, you calculate those, and that's how you get to that figure.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, so good. So tell me about your like, your regular client, you know, your average client. What are they taking home? Because I see on your socials, you'll be and on your website, you're big on wall art. And you just said that yourself. Like, everywhere I look there's wall art. You're uncovering wall art on your stories. You're doing reveals on your stories. You're showing wall art on your portfolio. I'm guessing that's what everyone's getting. But how do you get people from responding to an ad or a lead coming in through the computer, through the door, and then turning that into a paying client that wants to take home wall art?

Murielle Sassine: Well, showing those things on social media is very important. And positioning yourself in I guess, your area, your suburbs, where you live, is really important. And I think once you do that over a number of years, people start to notice you. And the incredible thing that I've also noticed is because everyone, I guess I'm the well-known photographer in the area. Now, so many people know me as a portrait photographer. And you know how I mentioned before that people work walk through my home. They go through the lounge room and then the dining room. So in the dining room, I actually never use that as a dining room, there is just piles and piles of framed photos on the wall, leaning on the wall. So when someone puts an order through to me, I actually get it done right away, and I use that for display purposes. And it's funny when people come into the sales room and I start showing them examples of what other people have purchased, it's kind of like, "Oh, that's okay to spend that sort of money. Yeah. Like, I'll get that too." And that's actually what happens. I'm not sure. I'm not a psychologist or anything like that, but I find that incredibly interesting. And I'm sure there's something psychologically, I don't know what the word is, or whatever, but it's like, if you show them what other people have purchased, it's kind of like "That's okay", especially if they know someone else in the photos. It's kind of like it's a big tick. "They're getting that, then I'm going to get that, or I'm going to get more." It's almost like a competition.

Andrew Hellmich: So if you have it, say a 30 by 40, for example, is it on an easel when they come in?

Murielle Sassine: No, I've got a 30 by 40 on display in my studio.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So let's say you've got a 30 by 40 for a family that you've just photographed, and then another family is coming in and you say, "Oh, this is a 30 by 40". Then do you say the price of that 30 by 40?

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, of course, I don't hesitate when it comes to price. In fact, when Iclem speaks to them over the phone, she says to them, "Our clients spent upwards of $1,000, our most popular package is just under $4,000 and it's completely up to you what you decide to spend." Now, when she speaks with them, and if she gets the feeling that they understand the pricing and they're okay with that, that's when we'll actually book them in. And then from there on, there are so many touching points about pricing. Even during the actual photographic session, I'll speak to them about pricing. I'll make sure that they've got a price list. We actually physically send them in the mail, a brochure and a price list, which I know not many people do anymore. So I think that's a bit of a point of difference than just sending an email or a text. We do those things too, and I think you've probably heard this before, it's about connecting with people and, you know, showing them that you care and you look after them, and making sure they have a great photographic experience and that they have fun. Like, my sessions are fun. I yeah, I make sure my clients have a lot of fun in their sessions. Like, I'll do whatever I need to do to create that atmosphere. And a lot of the times they're leaving, you know, feeling that, "Wow, that was a great session." Or even if it wasn't a great session, I'll actually say something like, I know you thought that wasn't a great session, but don't worry, I got some amazing images I can't wait to show you. And part of my sales process, which I started to do, you know, very early on in social media was I would actually show snippets or post up stuff before they actually came to see it. And what I found that, if the mum was coming without her partner, her husband, it was almost like they got the approval straight away. "Okay, these are great photos. You have to get them." And they always end up getting the ones that I post or show snippets of and more. And I find that that's an interesting sort of psychological thing that happens with social media, too. And then they ask for opinions of friends and family. And I'm guessing they're saying things like, "Oh my God, you have to get those photos. They're amazing", because they come in ready to buy.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I want to ask a little bit more about that process in just a second, but you said earlier about creating this connection, and I imagine you would be so much fun at a shoot. I can see that from your personality, you're always quick to smile and have a laugh, but it sounds like Iclem is the one that makes that initial connection, but you're the photographer. Like, where does the connection come from? Is it Iclem, or is it you?

Murielle Sassine: The first point of connection is, obviously, we, you know, various mediums that we advertise on, mainly social media. We run a lot of Facebook ads, and I throw a lot of money on the Facebook ads. I'll say that. And the first point of contact is with Iclem. And as I mentioned before, she's bubbly too. She's got a great voice over the phone. I love listening to her talking to clients like she makes me happy. Sometimes I'll be walking past the corridor and I'll just laugh to myself, she'll see me laughing, because I love her energy as well. So yeah, she's the initial point of contact, and I trust her with that. And I say to her explicitly, "If you don't feel that a client is the kind of client that we want, you know, I trust you not to book them in." So I give her full trust. I never micromanage her. I've always tried not to micromanage her in the beginning. I literally leave her on her own to, you know, to make those decisions, and I think that's important.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, then so she builds up this great rapport, and she's got this like, it's a great personality. The clients love her, but then they get handed over to you, and you have to start from scratch. Is that right? Or does she build you up?

Murielle Sassine: In her call, she builds me up, she builds me up, and then, before the photographic session, I will usually the week before, the day before, call them, and I'll just introduce myself, and I'll say, "Hey, you're booked in for your photo session tomorrow. Just wanted to introduce myself so it's not awkward and see if you had any questions for me. Have you thought about clothing?" And so they'll sort of feel more comfortable. And they always, usually say things like, "Thank you so much for taking the time, like to call me. That's so nice of you." And, and, yeah, they kind of know what to expect when they come in and don't forget too, I'm always posting stuff, behind the scenes stuff on my social so they're seeing a lot of that anyway. They're getting a feel for what my personality is like and, you know, I'm posting constantly testimonials, and you know how a client feels after a photo shoot, and I think that's really important.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. Yeah, me too. I love it, and that's the feeling I got when I went in and had a look at your socials as well. On that call that you make that first contact before the photo session. Do you talk about pricing then?

Murielle Sassine: I do, I do, and sometimes I've actually lost bookings because I've spoken about pricing, I'll be honest, and it is disappointing. It's like a stab in the stomach. But I always have to say, "Okay, well, it's better that this happened now than me taking them through the whole photographic experience, editing the photos, getting them back in, and then they have a meltdown about pricing." Because it does happen, you know, and I want to try and eliminate that. So if I'm getting rid of them even after Iclem spoken to them, then, you know, it happens, not often, but I'd rather it happen at that stage than me having to do the photo shoot, edit the photos. Yeah, I put my heart and my soul into taking the photos, which I'm sure a lot of other photographers do, and it's exhausting. I'm drained after a photo session, so if they don't buy the photos, and of course, it's completely up to them, but yeah, it's heartbreaking. You know, you don't want to get them to that stage. You know, where they've booked in their session, and then I call them, and then I've canceled their session with them. It does affect me. I'm not going to lie, but I always think it's better that they canceled now than, you know, having, you know, booked me for the photo session. You know, I spend an hour, or whatever the time is, I spend time editing the photos, getting them back in for the purchasing session, and then them, you know, saying "I didn't know the prices were this much, or you're expensive, or I didn't get the price list, or, you know, Iclem didn't tell us about the prices, or we missed that on your website", or whatever it is, and all of those things that I just mentioned have happened. So we try and eliminate that as much as possible, because when it does happen, I have to sit back and go, "Okay, how do we prevent this from happening next time?", and it still does happen, but at least if it happens, we go through everything, Iclem and I, we tick things off and we think, "Okay, well, we couldn't have done this any better." So it's a number, and we just move on.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, got it. So am I right in assuming that, you know, when you said that you run lots of Facebook ads, that a lot of your clients are coming in on the back of a free session and a credit or a print?

Murielle Sassine: Definitely

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so we're familiar with that process. Just let me ask you again about that phone call that you make the day or the week before the session and you talk about pricing. Just tell me how you phrase that. I want to know if it's like, "Have you seen the prices, or did you know that a 20 by 30 is $4,000? So how do you go into the pricing?

Murielle Sassine: I don't go through sizing because I don't like to confuse people about, you know, wall art, and I do believe it's a visual experience, but I kind of just throw it in, you know, after we've had a little bit of a chitty chat, and I'll say, "Oh, you spoke to Iclem. She touched a little bit on pricing. You know, she would have said that, you know, most of our clients spent upwards of $1,000 and our most popular package is just under 4000, I was just wondering if you had a chance to have a look at the process, we mailed one out to you." And then I'll stop, and they'll say something like, "I haven't had a look at it", or, blah, blah, blah. And then I'll say, "Okay, well, I just wanted to run through pricing. And you know, I'm going to pre book your purchasing session. If I have time after the photo shoot, I'll try and do it straight after the photo session, depending on what kind of shoot it is", or I'll try and pre book them on that call to come back in and see the photos. And that's when I can sort of say "It's important that you're aware of the pricing, because the worst thing that can happen is you fall in love with your images, which I know you will, and you know, you say to me, 'I can't afford them'. Then you're kind of, you're wasting your time, and I don't want that to happen". And then yeah, and sometimes I say, "No, no, I've looked at it, and that's great". And then sometimes they'll say, "Oh no, I haven't looked at it. It should be fine." And then sometimes they cancel, they've had a look at it, and, you know, they cancel straight after the phone call. Or if they're not okay with the prices that I've just mentioned, I say to them, "You know, if you're not comfortable with that, then it's probably best that we cancel the session, and maybe you can come back in another time when you know you're in a different financial situation", because it's at that point where people will actually reveal to you I" don't have a job, or my husband just lost his job, or I just broke my leg, I've been sick", or whatever it is. So it's then I guess, that they open up. And it's obviously the tone that you say it into. But I think it's important.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love the way you approach that. And I think the listener will get a lot from the way you do things as well. One of the things that you said earlier is that you post to social media. You didn't say how many, but it sounds like you post quite a few, and the clients get to have a bit of a look at the portfolio before they even come in. How many do you post? Are they watermarked? And are you worried about people just downloading those and not buying?

Murielle Sassine: I have never been worried about people not buying their images. And as I said many years ago, when Facebook came about, I saw this as a big opportunity and Instagram to post stuff I find now it's shifted a little bit. Most people don't share much on Facebook, whereas before, I'd post a photo and they would just go crazy sharing and sharing again and making comments. And you know, Facebook is, the algorithms changed so people don't see a lot of the content that you post, which is a shame. So that sort of shifted a little bit in Facebook, and even with Instagram, too, I find that a lot of people don't see my posts as much. But what I do, and I do this religiously with every single session that I do, I let them know that I'm videoing behind the scenes during their photo session, and I'll usually put together a reel and post it before they come in. And so even if I have an inkling of a worry that I don't want them to see the images. I will, you know, I'll video my computer screen as I'm editing them and make it really quick, and, you know, post GIFs on there on top of it. And, you know, there's no way that they're going to be able to reproduce that image, but they can kind of see and get a feel for what I've taken to prepare them to buy the photos. And if I don't have the time to create a reel, because, let's be honest, you know that takes time, I will simply just quickly stop on my stories and tag them some weird behind the scenes stuff, like make it really exciting for them. You know, "Worked with the beautiful so and so, what a gorgeous family. Look at these behind the scenes photos", and I'll put some funky music on and, yeah, just it's fun to see, people love seeing that.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. So are you doing all that, or is Iclem in the background when you're doing a photo session?

Murielle Sassine: No, Iclem doesn't do any of, unfortunately.

Andrew Hellmich: It's all you.

Murielle Sassine: It's all me. It's very tiring. It's very time consuming. I'm not gonna lie like I am tired after a photo session, and then I will sit back, and I will go through all the footage and put stuff together, but I try and get my mind thinking, 'If I don't do this, this is not going to equal a big sale'. So that's what makes me do it, and it's, it's part of my process, like there's no ifs or buts, it's actually part of my process.

Andrew Hellmich: It's a job, isn't it? I mean, I know it's a business, but it's our job to do the best we can in our business.

Murielle Sassine: Definitely, and the way I've always thought of it, too. I mean, I was a wedding photographer, as I mentioned, for about 13 years. Back then, there was no social media, and the only way we would get advertising and exposure is if we advertised our images in magazines. And back then I was paying off the top of my head, maybe $4,000 for, you know, a photo to go in on the right hand side of a Modern Wedding or something like that, and 10,000 on the back cover. And if you think of those numbers, and you think about it that way, you're kind of, I don't want to say stupid, but stupid is probably the word to think, to say that if you're not exposing yourself, because there's so many people, you can show what you're doing to in such an easy way and such low cost, you're kind of mad not to do it. And I guess that's what equals the big sales at the end of the day.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's so true. I mean, I'm the same as you. I didn't balk at spending three or four, $5,000 on going into these wedding magazines. That was just what you paid. Then you had the Yellow Pages, that was another few $1,000.

Murielle Sassine: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: All these different things. And now people like, "Oh, I don't really want to spend $100 on a Facebook ad and risk losing it." I was like, "Man, we used to spend 10s of 1000s. That was the only way to get in front of people."

Murielle Sassine: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Look, I want to get into the numbers, so I'm going to say, or we're going to say goodbye to the free listeners, because I want to dive a bit deeper into the numbers, because I know they're incredible. So if you're a free listener, this is the end for you. We'll catch us on the back end when we say goodbye to Murielle. Now only the Premium Members are listening Murielle. Can you give us an idea of your turnover?

 
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Andrew Hellmich: Murielle, look, I haven't had a 10 quick question segment for I think it must be years, but someone brought it up the other day. Are you happy to tackle these 10 quick questions if I throw them at you?

Murielle Sassine: Sure. But before we do that, can I actually announce something?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes. Do you want to announce this for the free listeners as well? Is only for premium members?

Murielle Sassine: Oh, no, the free ones too. But I was just gonna say that I just published my first book, and I released it today, so it went on pre-release, and it's available on Amazon. And, yeah, I'm really proud of that. So I just wanted to say that.

Andrew Hellmich: Is this the book..

Murielle Sassine: The breast cancer book, the fundraiser, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so I did mention that in the intro, and I was gonna ask you about, I mean, time's just disappearing. This was obviously a fundraiser for Breast Cancer Foundation.

Murielle Sassine: Breast Cancer Foundation, yep.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, but it also generated income for you, I'm sure.

Murielle Sassine: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: So was this again, that the book projects that some photographers would have heard about or tried, where you again, offer a free session, a photo goes into the book, and then you make sales on the back end of that photo session.

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, definitely. So we say, "I don't charge a session fee." They make a donation instead, and then they come in, and then, pretty much I sell them the photos. And it's in the exact same way as I shoot any other session and sell any other session. There's no difference.

Andrew Hellmich: I said, they know they're going to have a photo appear in the book, and they're supporting the Breast Cancer Foundation, but they also know they potentially will buy more photos for their home.

Murielle Sassine: Yes, and like I said, the sales pitch is no different. So Iclem speaks to them in the exact same way, it goes through the pricing in the exact same way. It's the same price list. It's not a special prices or anything like that. And that's how it is. And if they buy all the digital files, that pack I just mentioned, they're spending, you know, $4,000 that's the worst case scenario basically.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Well, okay, fantastic. So how much goes to the Breast Cancer Foundation from each booking? Is it the session fee? Is it a percentage of the sale?

Murielle Sassine: The session fee. So I don't charge the session fee. We take a donation instead, and we've agreed with something that they're happy with, and we donate that. And yeah, I donate some whatever I make every quarter, so I'm consistent with that, and now we're actually going to be donating 50% of the proceeds from the book, which is great as well.

Andrew Hellmich: So with your book, is there stories about the women as well?

Murielle Sassine: Yeah. So initially, when I first started this book, it was just going to be a picture book, and then I guess photographing well over 100 women now, you know, I realized that there was more to tell. So we put together Iclem and I like a series of questions. She'd email them the questions, and not everyone that participates is a breast cancer survivor. People do it for different reasons. Some just want to help the cause. They want amazing photos of themselves. The list goes on. So for the breast cancer survivors, we send them like a questionnaire. They fill it out. And so, you know, we can put a little story together based on what they've said. So I think there's about 14 or 15 stories featured in the book, which I think, my hope is that it will help a lot of other women and help them see that there is light at the end of the tunnel, you know. Cancer is such a scary word, and, you know, everyone freaks out, and it's just nice to know that other women have gone through it and come out on the other end. So I think that's important to share.

Andrew Hellmich: Is this something that's affected you as well?

Murielle Sassine: No, it hasn't. I made a commitment many years ago to work with a charity every year. So the Breast Cancer Foundation is not the only charity I've worked with, but I do know someone that has gone through breast cancer, so I understand it a little bit better, and I actually really enjoy shooting women, and you know, to have them share their story with me. I think it's rewarding on both sides. And I think the main thing as well is I'm able to show them just how beautiful they are, you know, and so many women come in with zero confidence, and you know, we'll get their hair and makeup done, I'll style them for the photo shoot, and we just have a really great session together. And I get as much fulfillment out of it as what they do. And the end result is they get beautiful images, and I get paid for it. So it's great.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. It's win, win. So do they come in, or do you encourage them to bring their families as well? Are you just photographing individual women for each of these photo sessions?

Murielle Sassine: It's, they're women sessions, and depending on, so Iclem has first point of contact. So depending on what they say to her, sometimes I'll say, "My mom's going through it." So she'll say, "Why don't you bring your mom in for the photo session?" Or, "why don't we do a generational session, bring your daughter in as well, and your mom." So yeah, if they want to be included, I love that, and it's such a beautiful session to have, and it means so much to them. To have that kind of thing done at the end of the day.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure. And look, I feel bad always dragging this back to business. But do you find that if there's more people in the session, the sale will be better on the back end?

Murielle Sassine: Oh, no, not necessarily, no, not necessarily.

Andrew Hellmich: That's good.

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, yeah. I think it depends on a lot of things, you know, making sure they enjoy the experience you've connected with them. They're in a part of their life where they feel that they deserve to own these photos at this cost, and sometimes it's hard, because some women don't value themselves. They're coming in not valuing themselves, and they have kids and whatever, and they feel guilty for spending money on themselves. So I'm not a psychologist, but I feel like sometimes I could easily be, because I have to be careful in what I say and the conversations that I have and just make sure they're comfortable. I just try and make sure that they're comfortable. And I think once they start to trust me, they start to look at themselves in the photos and go, "You know what? Like I do, look beautiful. It was a great experience. It is worth it." and people won't part with money if they don't think it's worth it.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And do most of these women find you for your book project through Facebook ads?

Murielle Sassine: Facebook ads, definitely. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool, cool. And you just touched on the fact that they can, or they donate the session fee. When you book a regular session, do you take a refundable booking fee to make sure that they turn up? Or is that something you don't worry about?

Murielle Sassine: No, no, I implemented it years ago. I don't do session without a booking fee under any circumstances. So if they've come from you know, a promotion like Facebook. We charge $100 booking fee, and then we just to, I guess, make them feel comfortable. We say, "Look, if you don't enjoy the experience or you don't want to take any of the photos home, we refund that back to you." I don't think I've ever had to do that, to be honest. So, yeah, it's just, I guess, you know, and it's again, the way you say it. So we say to them, "It's a reservation deposit. It secures your space. You know, the reason why we take it is Murielle sets up everything. She dedicates the time. There's nothing worse than having last minute cancelations. She's sitting there twiddling her thumbs." That's what Iclem says over the phone. I've heard her. So they understand it a lot of the times, and they don't have an issue, you know, leaving that deposit.

Andrew Hellmich: So good, so good. I'm going to ask you, after these 10 quick questions, if you're still happy to do this, about the book on Amazon. So everyone hears that, but have you got time to do these 10 quick questions?

Murielle Sassine: Of course, let's do it.

Andrew Hellmich: All right. You have a drink of water. I'm going to fire these at you. You don't have to answer them super quickly. Just give me your answer, and we'll move on to the next one without going too deep. '10 quick questions, 10 quick answers, 321, Go!'. What camera system are you using?

Murielle Sassine: Oh, I just bought a mirrorless Nikon system that I've had for about, I don't know, three months, and I haven't shot with it yet. It's gonna happen, though, I promise.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh my god. So you're obviously coming from Nikon already, and just going to

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, I have the D5 and I share with all prime lenses, and I love it, but I gotta say, my body's giving in. I'm 43 I'm starting to develop like shoulder pain, and so the only reason why I bought the mirrorless camera system was to alleviate some of the pain, but it is very different, and I just have to get used to it so it'll happen soon. I promise

Andrew Hellmich: Follow up question, favorite lens? And why?

Murielle Sassine: Oh, the Nikon 85 millimeter. I shoot all my portraits with that. It's a great sharp lens, and I love how it makes the background really milky.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. Do you have a favorite piece of software in your business?

Murielle Sassine: Software? I won't say Photoshop. I'm using Photoshop less and less these days. I guess as time goes on, I'm trying to stay as far away as my computer as much as possible. I just find myself editing a lot in Lightroom, but I am looking at, you know, implementing some AI software, so hopefully that'll help. But I'm starting to really hate computers.

Andrew Hellmich: What does Iclem use for her bookings? Do you have CRM software?

Murielle Sassine: I'm almost embarrassed to say this. We've had Studio Ninja operating for like, five years, and we're actually having another meeting about it to fully implement it tomorrow. We're pen and paper. We have such a great system, I swear to you. We start using Studio Ninja in general. We go back to pen and paper. It's crazy.

Andrew Hellmich: Look, you know what? I'm with you. Linda, my wife, she looks after the admin side of the business, and she does not want to know about a CRM. She's pen and paper, and I'm the same as you. I'm embarrassed to say that, that it works,

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, because everyone talks about automation, and it's great, but I think the time that you have to spend automating things and making sure they're correct, like, we hadn't, like an automated email go out when we booked someone, and it was only until they replied to the email I've turned around to issue and going these automations are wrong. Like. Look at this sentence. This doesn't apply to this job. It's in the wrong workflow. So that's why we're having the meeting tomorrow. And I'm like, what a mess, you know? But I'm sure once it's set up, it'll work. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, next on best thing looking back that you've ever done for your business,

Murielle Sassine: Hire a business coach.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, nice. Who have you had?

Murielle Sassine: I've worked with Bernie, Bernie Griffith, and I was with him, I guess, for about seven years, and turned my business around completely and made it a more profitable.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that when you went from weddings to portraits?

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, I actually hired him at that point where I was transitioning from weddings, I was still profitable at weddings. Everything I knew up until hiring him, I taught myself. And I, you know, I never knew anything about marketing and advertising. I just, I winged everything and learned as much as I could, but he just gave me a different way of you don't realize, I guess, so much how business is important. Like, I'm more interested in the business side of it than, you know, looking at the latest software or cameras. I'm happy to use the Nikon D5 for the next 10 years. I have no issue with that. I'm more focused on "Okay, keeping costs low and profits high."

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Love that. That's yeah. But now you sound like a business person more than a photographer.

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, you know, we were talking about numbers before. I actually didn't even, I was operating my business for such a long time, until I started working with a business coach. I never looked at the numbers. I knew I was making money, and I definitely know how to spend it, but I'm a spender, but I never knew. I just knew my mortgage was paid off, I would get by. I could buy whatever I want, but I actually never knew figures. So now I know figures, and it's exciting, and I look at the figures and I don't get excited. I think, "Okay, well, how can I make more?" As I said before, so once you know the numbers, then you can sort of really start to change things and know where you stand in the business, I think. And I'm not a numbers person, I'm not a numbers person.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Well, on the back of that, have you ever had a setback in the business?

Murielle Sassine: I haven't made, I guess, bad business decisions. And not that I'm a very careful person, but I'll say I am pretty switched on, and I guess I've been lucky in the way that I've just been able to navigate things. And if I don't know how to do something, I'll find a way to do it, or find someone that can help me find a business coach or hire this person. So I'm not opposed to doing any of those things. So I haven't had any major setbacks.

Andrew Hellmich: That's worked great and, I mean, you can't go too far wrong if your costs are low and your profits are high. I mean, things can't ever get too bad in that case.

Murielle Sassine: Yeah. I mean, the worst thing that can happen is, you know, I spend a couple of hours doing a job, and they don't buy the photos. And that does happen. I mean, last year we counted, and this is because I do the numbers now, seven clients didn't buy photos for all different reasons, but seven out of seven, and we had 73 bookings, and the average spend was just under 5000 so if you ask me, that's not bad, I'm not focused on the seven.

Andrew Hellmich: Of course not. No, because you look at the averages, it's still amazing. It's incredible. Well, talking about numbers, how much would you be prepared to pay per lead or booking whatever, whichever one you measure, if you measure any.

Murielle Sassine: So at the moment, I'm paying between around $100 a lead, if I work it out, maybe sometimes a little bit more. And it depends, if you want to factor in the time that you spent getting that lead booked in. It's not even looking at just the cost that it costs you on Facebook or whatever it is. I'm prepared, because I understand my business and what I make, and the costs being so low and the profits being so high, I think I'd be prepared to even spend $300 on a lead if I needed to, even more than that.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, sorry, so Murielle, would you say you're paying $100 lead or prepared to spend $300 for a lead? Is that for a lead or for a booking?

Murielle Sassine: Not for a lead, for a booking, like a paid client.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Murielle Sassine: I'm looking at it, okay. Well, my average spend is just under 5000 if you deduct, you know, $300 even $500 from that, then, like you're still doing pretty well, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so if you got 10 leads in for, let's say, $50 each, and you converted one of them, you'd still be okay with that. Cool. Love it. Love it. I don't know if you're a reader, but have you ever read a book that changed or had a positive impact on your business or life?

Murielle Sassine: I like to think I am a reader, but I'm probably not. I have a bookshelf. There's so many books that I haven't gotten around to reading. I'm currently reading Atomic Habits, which I find very interesting, but I haven't finished it.

Andrew Hellmich: What was the book?

Murielle Sassine: Atomic Habits

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, Atomic Habits. Yes, I've heard great things about it, yeah.

Murielle Sassine: Yeah, it is great in the way that he explains things. So that's what I'm currently reading. So, yeah. But other than something that's been life changing, probably not. I don't read enough.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I got two more questions for you to finish up. One is, why do clients book you or choose you over your competition?

Murielle Sassine: I guess a few reasons, I'm not too focused on what my competition is doing. I don't know if that's a bad thing or whatever, but I try not to worry too much about what other photographers are doing in my area. I just focus on myself. And as I mentioned before, I try and make the experience fun and worthwhile. And I think I produce really high quality images. And it's the whole experience from even when they're they come to pick up their portraits, I wrap them up like It's a present. I personally hand write a note in them, you know, in each you know, package when they pick it up. And thank you so much for choosing to work with me. I hope you enjoyed your experience. Something along those lines, and I'll mention something personal. So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Beautiful, personal touch. I love it. Last one for you. Look, I should have prepped you with this one, because this might be a tough one to think of, but have you or can you share an embarrassing moment or a stuff up that you've had in the past?

Murielle Sassine: Oh, my God. So many, so many. Um, well, this comes back to my wedding days. The first thought that came back. But I was doing a really big wedding, and, you know, after the church ceremony, I was standing up on a high point, I think, the steps of the church, and I was screaming on the top of my lungs. Everybody getting to the middle, we're going to take a group photo, screaming. And then I got the bride and groom's name wrong. And everyone was trying to tell me, but I was so in my head, stressed down and on a time crunch, that I was just ignoring, like, you know, 300 people going, "That's not their name. You're an idiot", you know, whatever. And I took the photos, and it wasn't until afterwards that someone came up to me and they said, you know, they explained what happened. I was like, "Oh, okay, that explains why everyone was looking at me funny", but you just, you had to be there. It was really embarrassing.

Andrew Hellmich: I can picture that. That's so good.

Murielle Sassine: It was really embarrassing. I looked like an idiot. Basically, I'm a dumb professional as well.

Andrew Hellmich: At least you can look back and laugh about it now.

Murielle Sassine: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: It's so good. Right. You have been incredible, like massive congrats on your success. I hope you do stop to smell the roses occasionally and take a long weekend and live a bit of a pleasurable life, because you've been incredibly successful, and I'm sure you'll continue to be. Thank you for coming on and sharing everything you did. Where is the best place for the listener to see and learn more about you?

Murielle Sassine: Well, they can head to my website, which is vividimaging.com.au, you can follow me on Instagram, and it's my name, which is spelled Muriel Sassine, M-U-R-I-E-L-L-E Sassine. Or you can find me on Facebook, Vivid Photography and Imaging, and that's pretty much it.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm going to add links to all those in the show notes so you can easily find Murielle, because I was shocked when she told me it was 'Murielle', when I looked at the spelling.

Murielle Sassine: I'm not 'Muriel', 'Muriel'. I get it all the time. And I said, remember, 'hooray' for me, right?.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes. So good.

Murielle Sassine: That is word association, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And you mentioned your book on Amazon. Like, do we just go to Amazon and search for your name?

Murielle Sassine: You can search for my, I don't know if it comes up with just my name, but the book is called Uplifting. It's called Uplifting, A Celebration of Women. If you even just put Uplifting, it should come up with my name. Yeah, it just got released last night, so I haven't tried the alternatives, but I should. I'll work it out. You'll find it.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll add links. I'll add links in the show notes anyway, so the listener carefully find it.

Murielle Sassine: Thank you

Andrew Hellmich: Again. Massive, congrats. This has been amazing to talk to. I'm so glad about the chat. I'm sorry I kept you waiting. I'm in Scotland. You're in Australia. I'm used to having things a little out of time.

Murielle Sassine: It's okay. Everything happens in the perfect time, as they say.

Andrew Hellmich: And massive thanks also to Iclem for making all this happen. Looking forward to catching up sometime in the future and again, massive thanks, Murielle.

Murielle Sassine: Thank you for having me on the show. I loved it. I love talking to you. A great interviewer.