350: Brian Kellogg – Making the move from wedding photography to profitable portraits

350: Brian Kellogg – Making the move from wedding photography to profitable portraits

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is Premium Member, Brian Kellogg from the United States. He recently left a review in iTunes that said, "I want to let you know about the recent successes with my new portrait photography business from listening to PhotoBizX and hiring a coach. I moved into a new studio two months ago, had a record $3,000 plus sale, booked 5 portrait sessions today, and my portrait sales average was $300. Now the average is around $1,470. I'm doing 15 sessions a month, soon to be 20 to 30 sessions a month with an all year round income. The goal for next year, which is now 2020 is a $20,00 month." Following that review, I reached out to Brian and I'm rapt to say that he's with us now. Brian, welcome!

Brian Kellogg: Thank you for having me. I'm glad you say rapt all the time. I think I had another person that did the interview said the same thing. So yeah, I'm glad you're rapt.

Andrew Hellmich: I really, I am wrapped to have you on the show and what really got me excited was before we started recording and I jumped on the call, I was looking around your website. You probably know that I can go in and see your Facebook page and your Facebook ads. I can see your landing page, everything looks like it's really coming along strongly. But interestingly, all the new focus things we portraits where I get the impression you were a wedding photographer. Do you want to run us through this transition if there was one?

Brian Kellogg: Yeah, there definitely was a transition. So basically I started listening to your podcast and got introduced to you at the Bernie ads and they went extremely well for me when I did that myself. But yeah, before Bernie, I was actually full into weddings, but my SEO wasn't as strong as it was in the past and I was just looking for something different. And plus having a two year old at home, things changed a little bit too. So basically Bernie got me into more during our portraits in a studio. So just a little bit of transitioning from low sales now to high sales, which is great.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. So I know from our little chat that you've been shooting weddings for 14 years and I imagine for anyone that's shooting for 14 years they've been successful at, I mean, that's awesome that you can even do that and say you've been shooting for 14 years and then you hire a business coach and knowing Bernie the way I do, he dislikes wedding photography as a way to making money and he pushes everyone towards portraits. I'm curious to know why you originally hired Bernie and then what were you thinking? What was your thought process when he suggested Brian, you need to stop shooting weddings or you need to introduce a move to portraits.

Brian Kellogg: Yeah, from weddings I was doing pretty well, but I just wanted to do something different. So that's when I start doing more portraits basically in the studio because I have a little two year old. So, I wanted to spend more time with him and then portraits does seem like a good way to go and actually could in the long run make more money inside the studio than I could at weddings.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. So did you have this home studio set up and were you shooting portraits before you hired Bernie?

Brian Kellogg: No, I wasn't. I was renting a studio from another photographer. It was a shared kind of studio. And then more recently everything's been going so well with the ads that he's got me in doing. Basically now can do my own studio and yeah, kind of went up from there for all the sales as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. So at the studio that I've seen on your studio walk through, which I think is up on YouTube, is that in your home and did you have to build that? Did you convert a room? What did you do there?

Brian Kellogg: No, basically it's a building with artists, studios and yeah, it's not my home. It's basically, a one large building that contains studios. So I just had my clients on over there, hardwood floors that looks really nice. Yeah, I put it in the show notes if you can of that video tour so people get to see it, like everything's really working together in the studio too now that it's my own and I get to highlight with studios, basically a strip lighting to highlight all of my portraits in the side. And yeah, it's a really nice little space.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So you have a sales room there or viewing or consultation room with a strip light and then you have the actual shooting studio space off that room as well. So it all happens in this one building?

Brian Kellogg: Correct? Yup.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And is that a shared space, did you say or that part of the space is yours entirely?

Brian Kellogg: That part of space is mine entirely. I was sharing a space with another photographer before, but now I have it all to my own, which is awesome.

Andrew Hellmich: And I love that. Okay, that's awesome. So once the business was going well enough, that's when you decided to make the move into this studio space outside of home.

Brian Kellogg: Exactly. Yep. You're right.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. Are you still shooting weddings today? Still advertising for them?

Brian Kellogg: Not advertising for them at all now. Just strictly shooting portraits.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So any more weddings left on the books?

Brian Kellogg: No, as of right now I think I had my last one just a few weeks ago, but yeah, I'm actually kind of glad to be done with weddings. Oh I don't know if I burned out, but yeah, I just want to look more towards like the profit side a little bit more and save up more for retirement. And weddings, at least for me it was pretty seasonal as well. But I like a constant, like my January right now I believe I have 21 booked sessions for in the studio. So yeah, it should do really well.

Andrew Hellmich: That is awesome. Cause you live in a part of the States where, I mean it's cold, isn't it? Like people don't want to be shooting outside at this time of year.

Brian Kellogg: True. Yeah, it's very cold. So yeah, in January it can get, you know, in the 20s and no one wants to be outside below freezing at 20 Fahrenheit. So yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, that's super cold.

Brian Kellogg: Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Alright, just so I've got the timeline straight. You have the studio, things are going pretty well with the Facebook ads. That's how you bringing in the majority of your clients and then you bring Bernie in to help?

Brian Kellogg: Yeah, I was photographing high school seniors a little bit in the very beginning and now I'm just transitioning to just families basically and getting someone to do my own phone calls and having everything kind of streamlined now just with the genres of mothers and sons kind of genre from my ads and then also getting them into the whole entire family into the studio at the same time. So photograph the..

Andrew Hellmich: So is that the current promo that you're running? The mothers and daughters?

Brian Kellogg: Yes, mothers and daughters and the mothers and sons. So I have both of those going simultaneously and yeah, the ad just does incredibly well. I'm just shocked all the time. One thing I've been doing differently recently is doing a look alike audience with the, I think it's called lifetime value. So it's, I don't know if everyone's known about this, but I've pumped it up more and more. After you get a hundred clients with your own business, you can actually make a spreadsheet of their name, their email, and also how much they spent with your studio. And then you make a look alike audience with that and Facebook and they'll target people that look like your highest paying clients basically. So it's just incredible. And that's what, this keeps on making the success with the Facebook ads recently. I'm just like most of the people that are signing up for phone calls now are a pretty good candidate to spend enough money in my studio to kind of come on in and afford the whole thing.

Andrew Hellmich: That is so good. And just run me through and the listener through the ads that you're running. Are these the traditional ads where you're offering a free shoot with a print or have you modified the process?

Brian Kellogg: Yeah, I modified it from the original Bernie ad and just listening to him and seeing what works for other photographers too. I'm doing a, it's a complimentary session and then you do get a hundred dollars credit towards anything in the studio. So that's the basis of the ad. And then a phone call at the FAQ on the landing page kind of goes through a little bit more the details.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So the ad itself is, it's pretty simple isn't it? It looks like five or six lines. You don't have to click to read more. It's pretty simple.

Brian Kellogg: Yeah. And I like it like that where you don't have to click to read more because I know that Facebook, if you have to do that, that's a little bit of a barrier for someone to read all the information. So I like it that it's extremely tight and just really narrow a text and it's straight to the point.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. And I can see with your current ad, this is a black and white photo of the mother and a daughter. And looking at your studio set up that I was referred to earlier on YouTube, all your images of black and white on the wall. Is this a strategy if you like?

Brian Kellogg: Yes, it is a strategy. So as Bernie's done black and white in the past, I was just kind of intrigued and see if it would work for me. And it's actually done extremely well where when people click on the ads, they're already enticed by black and white photography to a point. And then yeah, I just kind of hone in on that genre of people that like black and white photography when like it for the walls. And for me it's, and the clients a little bit easier too because I think black and whites a lot more flattering to people because I would have a dad lifting up with his own toddler and his face will kind of red and it's hard to, you know, white balance that or correct that. But in black and white, totally looks fine. So easy to do that.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. And you actually follow through that same feel on your website haven't you? Or you're marketing yourself as Columbus, Ohio black and white family portrait photographer.

Brian Kellogg: Exactly. And I think I'm the only one doing it and at least so to my knowledge. So it's nice.

Andrew Hellmich: It's great. So what happens now if you do a shoot and a client, a mom or dad, they want to see something in color or they ask for something in color? Is that even an option?

Brian Kellogg: It is an option. I just have it to...I export it in both black and white and colored just in case I need the color while I'm doing the meeting. I can pull it up. But for the most part I keep it all in black and white only. If they really want in color, they'll switch on over to it. So I still want to make a sale.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, absolutely. So everything on the wall they see is black and white.

Brian Kellogg: Exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: For albums. Anything in display is black and white.

Brian Kellogg: You're right. Exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. And then are you using the same thing for your actual ads as well?

Brian Kellogg: Right. Yeah. Kind of draw that kind of customer on in that likes black and white photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Love it. I love it. And I can see too, you're doing something interesting that I haven't seen many photographers doing and that's using vertical images in your Facebook ads or portrait orientation.

Brian Kellogg: Yeah. I'm glad you noticed. So it takes up when you hold the phone or people always browsing on their phones now, especially on Facebook, when you do an add that's vertical on there, it takes up a little bit more room than a horizontal one. So they have a little bit more time to kind of look at the photo as they're scrolling. So yeah, that's definitely on purpose to have those vertical kind of photos. And I always, yeah, black and white, bright faces, dark background. So it's a lot of contrast in that one photo that I'm using for my ads.

Andrew Hellmich: It does wore the photos meant to do with an ad isn't it? It stops people from scrolling through their feed and they read it and have a look at what you're saying.

Brian Kellogg: Exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect. So where are you taking people from? So you've got a link there, you're not asking for comments, you're not asking people to do anything apart from click on a link.

Brian Kellogg: Right. And that's on purpose too because in the very beginning I had people comment but it just got way too confusing. So now I have them click on the link and then first thing that pops up as the landing page and that has a little bit of FAQ at the bottom, but I really want them to click on the next link. And on that landing page there are basically images they can scroll on through, they can scroll on down for more information, or they can click one of the three buttons on the landing page to get them to the form I want them to fill in. And that's a Google forms that I have them fill in from there.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. So just so the listener can stay on the same page on this actual landing page. So how are you creating that? Is this a landing page on your website?

Brian Kellogg: This is a sticky folio landing page and I just like it because there's nothing else they can do on there other than just click the link to fill in the form from that landing page.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So could you do the same thing on your website if you wanted to?

Brian Kellogg: Maybe, but I still liked that they can't go anywhere or click on a logo to go to my webpage. I think all the information that they need is right on there. So I just kind of lead them on through that. But it would take a little bit of work to do it on my own website.

Andrew Hellmich: So was sticky folios is a simple proces?

Brian Kellogg: Yeah, it's really easy, just almost like a drag and drop of, you know, where your images go and everything. So yeah, I just really like how it's laid out too. It's laid out very, very well.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. Okay, so I'm on your landing page now. I'm seeing the same kind of headline that was on your ad. I'm seeing the same photo. There's a button, obviously it's so easy to see. It's bright green compared to everything else, which is black and white. Click here to apply now. And then I scroll down, I can see that same video, that YouTube video of you. So I get to meet you and hear you talk and take me through the studio and there's a little bit of a gallery and then a little bit more about you in texts and some more photos. And then like you said, there's also a couple of testimonials, some frequently asked questions and another button again to click to learn more. Yeah. So it's pretty simple and easy to lay out.

Brian Kellogg: It is. And it's all driven to whatever point that they want to exit and fill in the form. They can, they can either click it right away or if they want more information they keep on scrolling down to get.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay. And then if I click the link then you said it takes me to a Google form.

Brian Kellogg: Correct. And I like using Google forms just because it makes a gigantic spreadsheet of everyone that filled in that part of the form basically.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So on here. So this is where you're going to be asking them questions. They complete all their details. So are you taking this information then to a CRM or to email software? How are you using this information?

Brian Kellogg: I am using that information for little bit more of the details of why they would want to do a family portrait. That's an important one too that I want to get some context before I hop on a phone call with them. And then Google basically makes a spreadsheet with everyone that entered and that's why I kind of like, you know, for it to happen. So it's just a good of a reference for me. But the main thing is on the thank you page of that Google Form, there is basically another button that says schedule a call now you're only halfway done.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So what happens then? I haven't been that far. So what happens after that?

Brian Kellogg: You can fill it in if you want to. So you can get that far. I won't market to you. Don't worry.

Andrew Hellmich: No, I'm happy to. I'm happy to see what you do. I love that one of the questions you have is 'With a hundred dollars off any products, what would you most be interested in, click any that apply,' and that's a must answer question and one of the options is 'No thanks, I'm not interested in purchasing anything.' So if they click that, what happens?

Brian Kellogg: Usually I would just get that information. So if they do sign up for a phone call on the next page and I see that they click that, I'm going to go straight to the point and see if they are interested at all in purchasing anything. Just go right into 'Do you still want to do the session' kind of thing. If they click that. They're not disqualified or anything, but they can still submit and keep on going.

Andrew Hellmich: Would you be as bold as to say something like, 'Look, this isn't for you if you're only after a free session? Because most of my clients spend, you know, two and a half thousand dollars.'

Brian Kellogg: Yeah. So I let them down softly. When I do hop on the call, I would just, you know, just get to the point as I said and just be like, 'I do have mini sessions throughout the year and you want me to put your email into that instead.' So I give them like a really easy escape.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. I like that. That's nice. Okay, so I've clicked through, you're going to get my details there and I can see now you're using Calendly and I'm gonna be scheduling a 5 to 10 minute call.

Brian Kellogg: Right. Yup.

Andrew Hellmich: Simple, super simple. This is so streamlined. So you pick out the dates and the times that you want to be talking to people and they have to find something that suits.

Brian Kellogg: Exactly, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. I can see here you blocked out a couple of days this week. You've got only two days next week. So you're just picking out the times. So what happens then? You get a reminder via email from Calendly?

Brian Kellogg: Yes. So and then it also blocks it off on my calendar as well on just a Google calendar. So I know, yeah. When people are filling in and everything and then either I would make the call or I would have the person that does my phone calls now do the calls for that day. So yeah, it's pretty simple process.

Andrew Hellmich: So will they bring up the email via Calendly or looking through inside your calendar where it's been blocked out so they know who they're calling, they got the phone number there. Do they cross reference that then with the Google doc or a Google form?

Brian Kellogg: Yes. So we would take their email, I would get the additional information they filled in with a Google form and manually look at it and then make notes to the side on that large spreadsheet there. So everything's kind of organized and once they become a client, then I take that information and make up another spreadsheet of people that had signed up, basically keeping everything organized.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay, why did you decide to start outsourcing the phone calls?

Brian Kellogg: It's just a lot of time and a lot of people don't pick up.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Brian Kellogg: So yeah, about half of the people that sign up, because it's so streamlined, it's great. But the only caveat is that only half the people actually pick up the phone. And Bernie and I were trying to work on through this and seem to get that ratio a little bit better for me. But that's just what it is right now. There's other things that are going behind the scenes too of once they sign up for a phone call, they'll get to another thank you page that has a pixel on it from Facebook and then I'll start to send them portfolio images or just portfolio posts of just families I've photographed in the past. And usually now when they hop on a phone call with us, they know who we are and have seen some of our portfolio work basically before we even talk to them.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. I love how you're doing that. So I've been a little bit sneaky here. So I've gone into your ad library and I can see that you've got father and son photos, you've got little ads that are very, very simple. There's not a lot of copy on these ads and they're just showing off your images and introducing you again. So I know it's Kellogg Photography. I'm seeing you over and over again.

Brian Kellogg: Exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: It looks like you serve your studio tour as well, and you've got family photos. Most of it's in black and white. There's one color ad that you've got as well and well that's got black and white photos as well. Okay, cool. So these are all retargeting ads that you're serving to people that have gone through the process.

Brian Kellogg: Right. So they're a little bit more warmed up basically when we hop on the phone call with them. So there we're not strangers. What we used to have in the past that we asked them, have you seen our work? And they would say, 'Oh, I might have seen one image on the landing page.' But now they're actually saying, 'Oh, we saw it.' You know, your studio, the video tour or something of that nature. So a little bit of that.

Andrew Hellmich: How good is that? So you know it's working.

Brian Kellogg: Yes, it's working.

Andrew Hellmich: I'd love to stick with the calls for just a minute. So before you started outsourcing the calls, I'm guessing you are making these calls originally?

Brian Kellogg: Yes, I still do. If, yeah, for what reason that person that does my calls, she had an emergency basically. So I don't mind, I can hop on the calls and do it myself still. So it's not a big deal.

Andrew Hellmich: Correct. So what's her name? The person who's doing the calls.

Brian Kellogg: Ashley.

Andrew Hellmich: Ashley. So when you were teaching or training Ashley, how did you do that?

Brian Kellogg: I sent her a couple of samples of myself doing the calls and I'm very grateful that she was very nitpicky and like wrote down every single detail of me, you know, the recording, so she knows exactly what to say. And she's also a second photographer too, so she knows a little about photography and how to handle clients as well. So there was a, luckily not that much training I had to do, which was great. And she books some people like you wouldn't believe sometimes. I was looking at her ratio recently. I thought it was almost too high. But, the clients came in and everything's good. So it's good.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow! That is so good. So did you do any role play with her? Do you sit in and listen to her make calls or does that make her too nervous? I'm just getting an idea because I know this is one thing that people love to outsource.

Brian Kellogg: So yeah, we role played back and forth a few times and everything sounded crystal clear. Like the only thing I had to say to her, it's like you have to actually insert the jokes that I say during the phone calls. One of the cheesy ones would be, it's like I would like for the family to wear solid colors or stripes or nice outfits for the second outfit, but leave the Hawaiian t-shirt at home. So that usually gets a laugh out of the color because they don't expect it. And then I just, you know, back off and say I'm joking, but yet just don't bring any noisy prints for your shirts and yeah, stuff like that. So that's to keep the phone calls as lighthearted as we can too to make it kind of fun for everyone.

Andrew Hellmich: And with that actual phone call, so when you are learning to make these phone calls or you were making or you still are now, how much are you relying on the answers that they you in the Google form? Is it a free flowing conversation or are you, I know you said it's lighthearted or do you have things that you need to hit and hammer home and get an answer to before they go to the next step?

Brian Kellogg: Usually I go through a little bit of my spiel. I do look at what they filled in and say it's like, Oh you have three kids now I'll get the details of like their names and everything and the basis of that. So I'll just write in the notes, I have everything I'm getting. And then I ask them when was their last family portrait session. And then the next question would be do you have any space on your walls for a large canvas print? So, and it doesn't matter how they answer it, I'll still go through the entire call just to see if they're kind of a qualified client. But I'm kind of planting the seeds in their head of like, Oh, it's been five years or more or something like that since we've had a family portrait and then planting the seed for something large for their walls on the very beginning. So I like to start off the conversation that way.

Andrew Hellmich: So even if they don't have space on their wall, I'm guessing that's your number one product that you're looking to sell?

Brian Kellogg: Correct? Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: You want them to go home with something fantastic for the wall.

Brian Kellogg: Yeah. Large wall prints, and then even if they don't have something on their walls, we also have albums or we can do the portfolio boxes that are 11x14 and can hold basically 10 or 20 matted prints so they can have that as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Let's say they're engaging with that talk and you're getting the feeling that, yeah. Okay. These guys are interested in getting some wall portraits. They sound like they're a good fit. What happens next?

Brian Kellogg: They do have to answer the question, the money question. So when I get to it, the way that I do it is, let me think of the spiel on the, when people come to our studio, they usually go home with, and purchase canvases, metal or acrylic collages for their walls or just an album for safekeeping. And typically they spend right around $599 and upwards with us. And you also do get a hundred dollars off on a Facebook ad they clicked on as well. So, how does that sound to you? And then from that answer, I know if they say yes, like enthusiastically, then we can definitely move forward and schedule a time. If not, then I ask them, do you have any other questions for us? And then I get into, um, if it's like a budget concern or not, I always want to make sure that they can afford to come into the studio for the base collection before we move forward and schedule.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay. So let's say then the client sounds like a good fit. I'm interested, I'm happy to go further. The 599 didn't scare me. There's a next step then just to book a time that suits us.

Brian Kellogg: Yes. So we would look at the calendar together and yeah, I would basically fill in all the details on my end and then I still do require a $99 deposit just to make sure everyone kind of shows up on time too, but is completely refundable as well. So if they need to cancel for some reason, they can always, just let me know.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And this is the time when you would bring that up, that $99 refundable deposit at the end.

Brian Kellogg: Correct.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. Mate, you are an inspiration and I know you're putting some of the credit or a lot of the credit to Bernie, but really at the end of the day it's you doing the work. It's you, you know, to organize Ashley, you've got the calls down pat, you're doing these ads, you're getting the sessions. I hope you are taking a bunch of credit yourself. Your family must be proud and amazed. Are they?

Brian Kellogg: Yeah. Yeah. This year is going to be absolutely incredible because it's really turning forward and I mean I just got my new studio in October, so yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I didn't think that the new studio would actually pay for itself, but almost instantly, yeah, having a raise on the average just by making everything look as good as it can. Yeah. It just keeps on going up. So it's great.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. So if we jump on a call in 12 months time, what differences do you think there might be? Or what are you aiming for in the next 12 months?

Brian Kellogg: Well this January, I'm already starting out in the right foot with the 21 sessions, so I hope to keep on moving that forward and just getting, you know, 20 to 30 sessions and hopefully breaking into like $300,000 mark. So hopefully I get there. I mean it's possible. It's Marcus, you've already interviewed him and he's like, yeah, it's easier than you think. So now that I'm seeing the numbers, I mean he says that it's already done. It says like, well why can I?

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. That's unreal, isn't it? He must be excited coming into work every day.

Brian Kellogg: It's kind of a dream job.Just like get to be with my family when I want to be a schedule around. And then in a way giving up weddings. I don't have to have like a stress that's involved. Like if there is an emergency with my family or something or Oh, we have another kid, I have to leave the wedding or so it's nice that I can schedule whenever I want and have possibly the first summer off if I wanted to. So it'll be nice.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm excited for you. I'm excited to follow along and yeah, this has been just inspirational. It really has. Brian, where's the best place for listener to see your work? What you're doing? Get to know you a little bit better online?

Brian Kellogg: So I'm revamping my Instagram, so just go to my Instagram, it's just @kellogg_photography and you'll find me right there. But uploading more and more black and white work, probably by the time that this podcast airs, I'll have quite a bit more on there as well. So yeah, follow me there.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. I'll add links to that and also to your website and Facebook page so people can check you out. Now, I don't know. Is Kellogg's, is it an international brand or is it Australian? Are you familiar with the Kellogg's brand?

Brian Kellogg: You mean like the cereal?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes.

Brian Kellogg: Yeah. Yeah, I'm familiar. I've known it since grade school. People making fun.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so it is, so it's an international brand.

Brian Kellogg: Yes. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Is it an American company?

Brian Kellogg: Yeah. Yeah. It's an American company, I think it is like, I don't know. But I have been to Kellogg, Iowa, as well, so yeah, it's a city named after me.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I know that one of Linda's favorite breakfast cereals of all times is Kellogg's Coco pops.

Brian Kellogg: Oh yeah. I love that back in the day when I was a kid. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: That's a terrible, terrible.

Brian Kellogg: Terrible for you now and then.

Andrew Hellmich: Hey Brian, look, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for being so open, sharing what you have. Like I said earlier, you're an inspiration. I love what you're building and we've been able to achieve already. I can't wait to follow up over the coming months.

Brian Kellogg: Good deal. Thanks. Thanks for having me.