566: Sarah Jamieson – Passport photos as a well paying lead generator for any photography business

566: Sarah Jamieson – Passport photos as a well paying lead generator for any photography business

 
Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest shoots a genre never discussed on the podcast in the last 11 or so years of doing interviews, I'm talking about passport photos. And we were exchanging emails, and she said, "I know a lot of photographers who shrink back in horror when I say that I do passport and visa photos. They don't think it's worth their time and effort, but I think it's great. I've been doing it for over 10 years now. It's all automated, consistent income covering all my studio bills and rent, and is easily the most profitable service I offer. And families who have never stepped foot in my studio find their way in through passport and visa photos. They see the art on the walls, we get chatting, and voila, that no, like and trust factor kicks in. They join the mailing list and often end up booking full sessions. It's like the VIP pass to a whole new clientele." So needless to say, I was hooked, and I wanted to learn more. And we exchanged a few more emails, and I learned that her passport photo booking page is discreetly tucked away on her website, accessible only to those actively seeking the service through Google or through local word of mouth, and thanks to her scheduling software on a website, the booking process is totally streamlined. Each passport photo costs around 15 or 20 pounds, which is about US 25 and Australian $38 which means that her time doing passport photos works out to around 120 pounds per hour. So in addition to the financial earnings, she's found a huge side benefit in connecting with so many people in person. And for this reason, she does all the passport photos herself in her business. I'm talking about Sarah Jamieson of Pictorial Photography in the UK, and I am rapt to have her with us now. Sarah, welcome.

Sarah Jamieson: Thanks, Andrew. Thanks for the intro as well. I love that.

Andrew Hellmich: I love the name of the town that you live in. What's it called?

Sarah Jamieson: Berwick-upon-Tweed

Andrew Hellmich: Berwick-upon-Tweed? Very, very British.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, it's right on the border of England and Scotland, so you might hear that in my accent, but we're on the East Coast, and it's a very historic town. We've got some old bridges and lots of castles and things around here, so it's nice.

Andrew Hellmich: Is it a big town, or is it a city?

Sarah Jamieson: I'd say it's a medium sized town for the UK, definitely not a city, but bigger than a village.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So the people that you're serving with your photography business, do they all come from your town, or are they coming from nearby cities and towns as well?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, so well, mostly from the town. It's not a wealthy town at all, but there are pockets, you know, there's farmers and people that run online businesses and things that have a bit more money to spend on photography. But for passport photos, people come from around up to about 30 miles, unless it's a specialist one, like I do quite a lot of Canadian visas, which is a funny size. So people come quite far for that. But yeah, the passport photos is mostly local people, and then, like, family portraiture and stuff, because it's a tourist town, we get people who, I get people who come from like, well, they're staying local. They're staying in a holiday apartment or something, and they'll book a session on the beach or things like that.

Andrew Hellmich: So the passport side of the business, that's all locals, isn't it? That's all people from the UK looking to travel abroad.

Sarah Jamieson: Pretty much. Yeah, yeah. Oh no, sorry. The visa photos. So there's quite lots of different types of people that will come in for that. So I get quite a few people who live in the UK who need to renew their documents to stay. I get people who are traveling for work to different countries, yeah, and people who are going on holiday to countries that require visas. So there's quite a few different ones. There's quite a lot of people who work on like the rigs or gold mining and, you know, rope access and stuff, and they need lots of unusual visa photos.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So interestingly, like before we started recording, I Googled passport photos in, do you say Berwick upon Time?

Sarah Jamieson: Berwick-upon-Tweed

Andrew Hellmich: Berwick-upon-Tweed, sorry. And so you came up. You're all over page one. You know you're on the map. You're come up organically on page one as well, in position one. And then when I do the same thing in my local area, I get like, camera stores and office works. And these, you know, the post office even, and I know they do terrible and ordinary looking photos. So why do people come to you instead of those department stores with a local photo shop?

Sarah Jamieson: Well, they don't always come to me first. A lot of times people do try using a booth or in the post office, for example, and a lot of times those pictures will be rejected. They'll either be sitting too far forward, too far back, or the lights often not right. There's actually a competitor in town, which is like a place that cuts keys, and they also do passport photos, but I know that they can't do them in the afternoon because there's too much light comes through the shop window. So sometimes people come in for that, but my main clients that come in for passport photos are the ones that know that it's not easy in the booth. So, for example, newborn babies who get loads of people bringing in newborns, people in wheelchairs, people with, for example, like a lazy eye, who know that might not just be straightforward. And elderly people so and also people who are quite conscious of their appearance, business professionals will come in. They just know that they want a nice photo, and it has to be used on different things, so and it's for work, so they can claim it as a business expense and stuff, right?

Andrew Hellmich: So some people come to you directly, or they come to you after they realize they can't do it themselves easily.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah. Well, it's a bit of both. It's a real mixture, yeah, if they get it rejected, they come back quite frustrated because they've already spent money, and then they'll come to me and they'll have a much nicer experience, hopefully, and go away, and it'll pass. So yeah, they're always..

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. So with that side of your business, I mean, I alluded to the fact that you're using the income, or, you know, there's enough income from passport photos to pay the rent on your studio. So how much time are you dedicating to passport photos? You know, daily or weekly or I mean, how many are you doing?

Sarah Jamieson: As many as come in really? I mean, it's worth it for me. So the way that the Scheduling Calendar is used at security scheduler, which works with my website, and I have it set up so that, because I use an online calendar anyway, if I have a job booked in through my CRM or just by putting it in myself, I'll put the job in as 'mark myself as busy'. So the scheduler knows not to book the passport photos on those times. And then there's a small buffer of about 10 or 15 minutes before and after that job, and then the passport photos just get inserted into any little pockets that are where I'm available, and all I'm doing is I'm sitting in the office, in the studio anyway, usually editing wedding photos. So don't mind jumping up, take a quick passport photo, print it out or send it digitally to them, and it literally takes less than five minutes, and they're running out, you know, unless I start talking, which I can do, takes a little bit longer. But I do like chatting to people, which I think a lot of photographers do. And that's really the beauty of it, because get to know so many people in the town. So it's great.

Andrew Hellmich: Could you sustain yourself financially just on passport photos, or is it really an avenue to feeding the other parts of your business as well?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, no, I couldn't. There's not enough passport photography work at that price to pay my wages as well. So I do use the income from that to cover the studio expenses. So the rent, the electric, the water bill. It covers a bit more than that. I have employed staff to do the passport photos for me before, but that was when I used to do regular drop in slots. So it was like a regular hours kind of job for the person. So yeah, so the having this photography studio is basically covered, and then anything else covers my wages, camera upgrades and things like that. But that's my main business, which is family and weddings and branding and stuff.

Andrew Hellmich: So tell me about how you got started in passport photos, because, like I said in the intro, and like you've experienced, like people normally, other photographers like would squirm or pull back at the thought of doing passport photos and thinking, "Wow, what are you doing?" But how did you get into it?

Sarah Jamieson: So I used to be like a wedding photographer. When my children were really little, I would be wedding and family photographer, natural light, you know, just a kind of regular working from home kind of person. And we got the opportunity to buy a beautiful building which needed a lot of work, but we had the time to do it, so me and my husband did all that and replaced floors and ceilings and parts of the roof and everything, brought it back to life. And the upstairs of the building was taken on by a tenant. So somebody rented upstairs, and the downstairs was for me to have a studio. It's always been my dream, so I moved into that studio. But I didn't really have any kind of plan. I didn't have a business plan for it. I couldn't use studio lights. The building actually had 18 windows, which was a complete nightmare for lighting. I mean, it's not particularly bright in the UK and where it is surrounded by, like historic walls and stuff. So yeah, I needed to use studio lights in there, and I didn't know how to, so I was doing a lot of learning. So I was sitting in there, kind of using it as a very nice office. And quite often people would be knocking at the door like local people. All be knocking at the door and saying, "I need passport photos. Can you take my passport photos?" And I was kind of like, I could, but it'll probably take about a week for them to come back, and I'm not really sure how to do it. So anyway, after sending a few of these people away, thinking at that time, I was thinking I could maybe charge about five or 10 pounds, which you know, if you're not earning anything else, and you've just spent a whole load of money refurbing a building, you kind of need some cash. So it was playing on my mind that was sending these people away. And I just thought, you know what? I really need to learn how to do this and get something back. So I did a bit of research. I practiced on friends and family, made quite a few mistakes, and just started doing it. Bought a little printer. In those days, there was no digital codes or anything that they needed, so, yeah, learnt how to do that, and haven't really looked back. I started taking bookings over the phone, and I felt like I was on the phone quite a lot, so I started to have regular drop-in sessions on a Saturday morning and a Wednesday afternoon, I think it was, and that's when, yeah, in the summertime, like when it was summer holidays, that's when I started taking somebody on, and when I was shooting weddings as well, I couldn't do passport photos and weddings at same time, so I had a member of staff that I trained up to do them for me and part time. And then now that it's all online, and the scheduling software is just fantastic, so I don't need to do that anymore, and just brought it back. It's just me now so.

Andrew Hellmich: Amazing. I got a few questions for you. So is there a document online in the UK, you know, from the passport office or the visa office that says, "Hey, this is how you have to take photos." So you then, in regard to lighting and posing, I know you know that, a smile..

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: But is there a guide for photographers, or you just have to interpret what they want and create it?

Sarah Jamieson: There is the, pretty much every country that has specifications, so it's specifications for UK passports, and, yeah, for wherever you are. So Australia will have them, and, you know, even India and places like that, they'll have the document. And I would say there's, like, roughly about five different types that you'll need that, there are very slight variation. Sometimes it's worth reading the document, but there tends to be just these five types, and it's just rinse and repeat every time.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So and you mentioned you bought a printer and we were chatting, I think I read somewhere in one of your emails, or I saw online, you still use the same printer today. So is that a special kind of printer that you need, or just any old photo printer?

Sarah Jamieson: No, but the one that I use, it's a little printer, and actually, I've used it to print stuff out for the kids, for the homework and things. But it's a small six by four photo printer.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh

Sarah Jamieson: And just the way that's set up back in print off passport photos from it.

Andrew Hellmich: So it's a regular ink jet printer?

Sarah Jamieson: No, it's a dye sublimation printer. So it prints on..

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so can you use inkjet? Or it has to be dye sub.

Sarah Jamieson: They need to be glossy, like they need to look like a photo. Actually, I'm not sure you probably could use inkjet as long as it looks like a glossy photograph.

Andrew Hellmich: Some might depend on the stock.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah. However, it's mostly digital codes now, but the printer that I have is really cheap. It was like, I think you can get them for about 100 pounds new, but you can pick them up on eBay for like, 30 quid now. And the paper is not expensive. It's like, less than it's about 30 pence a sheet.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, and you mentioned digital codes a couple of times now, what are they? Are they something that's required by the government?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, I don't know if you have them where you are, but in quite a lot of countries in Europe and India, I think need them now, doing the passport application, it just asks for a code. So I upload the picture that I take into the cloud, and there's a bit of software that generates a code, and I email them the code, and then they just, when they're doing their application online, they insert the code, and it pulls their photo from the cloud, and that's the way that the passport agencies seem to prefer to do it now.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you have to be registered as a photographer to get that code.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, yeah. It's not like a legal registration. It's just a piece of software that you need to get.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So pretty simple.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, it's pretty straightforward. So you've got to pay for like 20 upfront, like 20 pounds or something. So it's actually more expensive to do digital codes than printing them out physical prints.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that right?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So that's why you have different prices. So if someone wants a digital code, it's going to be more expensive.

Sarah Jamieson: No, I just, it's not that much different. So okay, I just charge the same. So I charge 15 pounds for either digital or print for regular passport photos. But then if they want both, I charge 20 pounds or a digital and, and a lot of people go for both, sort of, because sometimes they haven't decided if they're applying online or with the form. Like manually and they like to have the backup and have it in the bag if they apply for something else,

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. If you do the photos, you go to your printer once you've got the photo. So I guess you take your SD card out, or whatever you're doing, put it in the printer, print or to your laptop or computer. Then are you, are you cutting it up with a guillotine? Are you using scissors, or you just print four and gives it to them? Like, is it really simple, or is it involved?

Sarah Jamieson: So when I started, I used to use a scalpel and a ruler, and I thought, you know, I'm doing so many of these. I'm going to take my finger off one day, and I'm going to have some blood bath everywhere. So I found that you can actually buy, they are like, like a die cut, like a die cutter, and it's the, fits the right sizes. So I've got three different die cuts, and those cover everything that I need.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you basically, it's like a cookie cutter.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah. It's like a cookie cutter, yeah. And they just pop out the top.

Andrew Hellmich: So good, so good, unreal.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: This is such a great lead generator and an income producer at the same time, because I don't want to devalue what you do, but because it's a kind of a commodity style of photography, how did you come to the price you're at? Like, why not double the price? Why not make it triple the price?

Sarah Jamieson: I probably could. Because a lot of people say, like, "Oh, it's less than I thought and things." But I don't want to alienate anyone. I kind of want to make it as inclusive as possible. And also I've always said this, is that if I didn't do passport photos, it just like, I would do it for free, basically, because it brings in so much work, like future work, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: It's that good. It really is that good?

Sarah Jamieson: It really is that good. So the way that my studio is set up, the front door, we've got parking. People can get in. It is disabled access. It's all on one level. So they come in and there's sort of a hallway. It's quite a big hallway. So I've got, I've got albums on a sideboard, like a cabinet, and then I've got wall art. So I've got all different like, I've got a framed canvas, I've got a big acrylic orb. I've got a big wall gallery, so they see all this. And then this is before they even get to the door to the studio part. Then they come into the studio. There's more wall art, and there's another cabinet with things on, and they can have a sit down with nice leather sofa, and I'll come through and talk them through it, and put studio lights on, take the photo, and then when I'm printing it or sending it to them, they've got the time to just chat to me, and they really get to know me. And I also ask, in the, when they book the passport photo, there's a ticky box to say, "Would you like to join the mailing list?" So some of them will join that. So I'm getting people onto the email list as well and keeping in touch with them that way. And that's really how I've built, like, a really good sort of local community following, I guess.

Andrew Hellmich: So with the artwork and the albums in the hallway and in the studio, is there pricing on any of that? Or do they have to ask you what things cost?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, so I feel like that's it's really important for people to know, same like on your website and stuff, you want to give them an indication, because so that just eliminates people that you know don't want to spend that much. So have on the artwork. I've got little price tags actually, they're probably about the size of a business card and on a little bit of string. They're sellotaped to the back, but they're hanging underneath each of the frames, so they just flip them over. It says what kind of wall art it is, has a description, and it has the price. And then I've got, like, pricing brochures lying around that they can take away and things so, so they're getting used to those prices. You know, it's like a gateway entry.

Andrew Hellmich: Is it, just so I understand Sarah, how does that? So you got like, a little business card hanging down from behind the frame. I understand that. So why do they have to turn them around to see the price? Why isn't it just displayed on the front?

Sarah Jamieson: I don't know actually, it was the person that gave me the idea was, he was a rep from the framing company, and he said, "Have them that way around. Have them so that the blank side is at the front." And he said, he actually said it "So you can see what they've been looking at, because they don't turn them back around."

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. That's a great idea.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah. But actually, in my head, it's more just, it's tidy, and there's not lots of like writing. It's just nice white, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: And is he correct that guy? And do people actually leave them turned around with a price showing so you know what they've looked at?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, they do. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So good.

Sarah Jamieson: And then if I walk back out with them, I can see that they've been looking at like an acrylic orb. And then I'll start talking about that particular item. So, yeah, it's just, it's a little clue, isn't it I suppose?

Andrew Hellmich: That is so good. I want to talk more about converting the people that come in for a passport photo to a family client. But tell me, with the passport photos, do you have, you know, a plain background and your light, your studio lights just permanently set up for passport photos, or do you have to rejig things before people come in?

Sarah Jamieson: It depends on what I've had in beforehand. There's usually a bit of moving around. But I have one camera, which is a really, really old. In fact, it's quite embarrassing. I think it's a Canon 350D. It's like, probably about 10 years old, and that is sat on the same settings all the time. The reason for that is because I have to have the photos taken in JPEG rather than RAW to be able to print on that little printer. And if I do it on my big camera, I'll forget and then I'll be like, "Oh no, I need to get people back in or have to put them on computer and mess about with it." So have that set up, and I have, like, two soft boxes. I mean, it's, if I have it set up any other way, it doesn't take long to change it. And then I've just got one chair, and there's, there's a white background that I can I've got paper background I can pull down, but you don't have to have that. I've had in my old studio. I used to use the back of the toilet door. It's just a white surface. So it doesn't really matter what you use.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. So it's really simple. So if someone comes in, you just set the power output for your two lights. Your camera is already set to whatever shutter speed and f/8 or f/11, whatever it is, and away you go.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, yeah. Nice and quick.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So almost no thinking. So really, you could focus on converting, potentially that person to a future client, more so than be focusing on the passport photos.

Sarah Jamieson: Oh, yeah. Like, I can do that in my sleep, the passport photos now, and I do a lot of talking to people and find out about I'm quite like, I'll ask, like, "Oh, where you going on holiday?, taking the kids?" So I find out if they've got kids, or if it's for work, "What kind of job do you do?" And then if it's for work, it's usually a good job if they're sending them away abroad. So it's like, "Oh, have you," you know, do they need headshots? "Have you had, you know, how's your LinkedIn profile looking?" Just getting all those kind of that little bits of information and just sort of plants some seeds in their heads. And then sometimes, if I really am getting on quite well with someone, I'll pop them a little voucher in the envelope with their photos, and just say, if you come in and I'll tell them in person. I'll say, "If you're coming, if you let me know in the next two weeks, I can give you 50 pounds off a headshot session", or, you know, that kind of thing. So it gives them like something to get back to me on when it's a short redeemed by date, and it makes it official by having a bit of paper.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm curious, like, do you have any like, photographic competition, if you want to call it that, is there other photographers in the town?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, there are. There's probably about three or four. They are all like natural light people. So there's no other studio, not for probably 60 miles. So I'm in between Edinburgh and another city called Newcastle. So think there's, there might be one about 40 miles away. So yeah, it's not too bad, because, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, I was thinking more along the lines of, if they see, I guess no one would suspect you're doing that well from passport photos, because I know, with my business, if I saw, you know, Joe Blow photographer down the road doing passport photos, I would probably be laughing rather than thinking it's a great business decision. And look, you've proven so wrong. This is amazing, I said in the intro. And you know, and I've also had a look at your website, which is beautiful, by the way, that there's no direct menu leading me to the passport photography page, but if I Google you, I can find it, and if I Google passport photos in your town, I can find it. So why do you do that? Why don't you have that on your website?

Sarah Jamieson: Well, people that are looking for passport photos, tend to just Google it. And people who know me, know that I do passport photos because I've done it so long now, and I didn't want it to be part of my brand. So have quite a sort of nice family, beachy, woodland kind of look about it. And I'd spoken to other sort of guru, mentor photographers. And I did have it for a while in my menu 'passport photos', and they all said, "Oh, take that off." So I did and but I really keyworded that page, the passport page. So I did a lot of SEO work on that. And it does it comes up, comes up quite well, as you've realized.

Andrew Hellmich: It does. Did you do that SEO work yourself, or did you hire a consultant or someone to do it?

Sarah Jamieson: No, I did it myself. Actually, I'm part of a really good group. I think, you know Julie, don't you?

Andrew Hellmich: Julie Christie?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, The Photographer's Voice

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, she's amazing.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah. It's such a good group. So she has, think it's, can't remember what it's called, like, part, like, a little course on SEO, which there's a guy called Lee who runs it for her. And I just followed that to the letter and did all that work. And, yeah, it's really, really good. I need to do it on more pages, actually, to come up for other things. So yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Like I said, you come up straight away page one. You're on the map. You're on the organic listing there as well, in position one. So it's obviously working so well. If someone's listening and they want to get into this, give it a try. Like, where would you start? Like, I guess the first thing for you was you had to learn how to use studio lights even. So, where did you learn that?

Sarah Jamieson: Where did I learn that? I just I learned that on like, YouTube videos and things. I think I bought some courses in the early days. I can't even remember who, who run them, or anything, but just a lot of practice, really, to get started in it. I mean, there is a little bit of equipment that you'll need, but not a lot. I mean, most of the stuff every photographer will have if they've got a studio. So you'll have a couple of studio lights, you'll have a camera. You'll need a trigger, a white background, or a white door, and a chair, and possibly a little printer if they want printed ones. But if you're just doing them, like the digital ones, you can do them straight away. I've done a course. So if anyone wants to learn and not make all the mistakes I've done over the last 13 years, they can do the course. But yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So you've got a course on 'how to become a passport photographer for photographers'?

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Where do we find that?

Sarah Jamieson: So that's on my website, and there's a tab that says 'For Photographers', so they can go and they can have a look at that if they want to. And that's something that I've just made because I was actually at a Photographer's Voice Conference in Edinburgh, and I was talking about how lucrative passport photography was to other photographers, and nobody, no one really believed me until I started talking about it. And yeah, and there was quite a lot of interest, and quite a lot of people just wanted to know a bit more about it. So that's how it kind of came about, really.

Andrew Hellmich: When you were at the Photographer's Voice Conference and you were talking about this, tell me what the photographers were most impressed about, because I'm curious, was it what you're earning from passport photos or converting clients?

Sarah Jamieson: It was more the converting the clients afterwards and building an audience type thing that they were interested in and then, but then, when I got talking to them, I was saying like, you know, "Why haven't you considered doing it before? Have you ever been asked?" A lot of them have been asked by clients and friends one or two times and just kind of said, "No, it's too much hassle. It'll take too long. It's not worth it.", because you only get like five pounds out of a booth. And they just presumed that you could only charge like five pounds per one, and it might take them an hour to process this photo that because they haven't ever done it before, so they just hadn't thought about doing it. And then there was other things came up, like, "Oh, well, it's not very good for my brand to be a passport, you know, like a local shop kind of thing." And I said, you know, it's kind of hidden in my website. They only find it through Google. So some of those photographers were quite interested, and I spoke to Julian, she was like, "Yeah, why don't you try and make a little course for people just to learn it quickly and be able to offer it, you know, next day, kind of thing."

Andrew Hellmich: So good. Okay, so the website is pictorialphotography.co.uk, and then there's a main menu item there for photographers, and that'll lead you to the course. Have you set a cost, a price for the course?

Sarah Jamieson: Yes, and I can't actually remember what it is. Gosh, that's a good question. And it's half price anyways, at the moment, I think it's about $83, I'm very new to making courses, someone told me to make the price in dollars so that it's easier for anyone to buy worldwide. But yeah, so it's early bird discount, and I'm running that until end of May, at 50% off. But if someone is listening to this podcast and hadn't listened to it until after me. Just get in touch with me and I'll sort you out. I just go.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. I'm on your page right now, Sarah, okay, so..

Sarah Jamieson: Right

Andrew Hellmich: Not to discredit what you just said, but it's not $79, that's Passport Pro Academy early bird discount price. And then you got 158, Passport Pro Academy. So what's the difference? Is that the full price?

Sarah Jamieson: Oh, so that's a full price, yeah, and then the half price is on a different cost thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, got it right? Okay, so people can get up to the 79 and that's US dollars, like I'm presuming.

Sarah Jamieson: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, okay, awesome. And if someone listens to the episode after the early bird finish. If they mentioned they heard you on this interview, then you're going to pass on that early bird special?

Sarah Jamieson: Sure thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Amazing. That is so good. So tell me, let's say I come into your studio for my passport photos, and you do the things you mentioned earlier. You know, you're telling to me, you find out I'm married, I've got two kids. We love the beach. I've got a pet dog, you know, all those things. And then you might even give me a voucher for 48 hours. Let's say I don't respond to that, and you've got my email address. So I said, "Yeah, I'm happy." So are they the two ways you're trying to get me? One is with the voucher. One is with the, when I say, 'get me', I mean, attract me as a client.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: They're the two ways.

Sarah Jamieson: Those are the two ways. Yeah. So I wouldn't directly email you about that promotion. I would just put you on my general email list and email every fortnight as to all that email, so it just keeps top of mind and just builds that familiarity. And you know, people will hopefully eventually come back. I probably should be a bit more hot on the market, in the direct marketing, but I'm quite busy with other things. So yeah, that's enough for me to do.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So those emails, I mean, that's a pretty soft sell. That's enough to get people in.

Sarah Jamieson: Yeah, yeah, it's enough. Sometimes it can take a couple of years, so, and then an event will come up, or, you know, like, it's somebody's birthday. I want a nice portrait for my mom's 60th or that kind of thing. I'll come up. And Sarah has been emailing for two years. So yeah, they can't get rid of me.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. So give me an idea of what you're, what you're including in these emails. So if I tick the box to say, "Yes, I'm happy to go on your email list", do I go into an initial sequence, or do I go straight into the just the fortnightly general emails?

 
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Andrew Hellmich: But this is also good for your business. Amazing.

Sarah Jamieson: It's, yeah, it's fab, it's really good, exciting.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. Sarah, this has been such a delight. I'm blown away by passport photos, what it can lead to, how much it brings in.

Sarah Jamieson: Who knew..

Andrew Hellmich: This grant as well. And it's just incredible. So look, thank you so much for coming on. For you the listener, the website is pictorialphotography.co.uk, go and check out the course, the brand new course that Sarah's put together. If you want to dive deep into the passport photos, also go and check out her other amazing work. It's all there on her website. I'll also add links in the show notes to where you can find Sarah on the socials. Sarah again, massive thanks for coming on, for sharing what you have, you're incredible. Really appreciate your time and everything you shared.

Sarah Jamieson: Thanks, Andrew, I really enjoyed it. My first podcast.

Andrew Hellmich: Wahoo!