499: Gary Pope – How to attract your perfect couples to photograph their weddings

499: Gary Pope – How to attract your perfect couples to photograph their weddings

 

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is a Connecticut based wedding photographer in the US. He started his wedding photography business in 2017 after learning photography and video in his stint as a board game YouTuber. Yes, you heard that correctly, he was an influencer in the board game space on YouTube. Today, on his fantastically branded website. He clearly targets and serves geeky and introverted clients. He is the self-proclaimed expert on posing awkward people and couples. He trades under the business name, Love, Long and Prosper Photography, an obvious play on the phrase made famous by Spock from Star Trek. I'm talking about the talented and who I am thinking and predicting is a savvy business operator, Gary Pope, and I'm rapt to have him here with us now. Gary, welcome.

Gary Pope: Hey. Thank you, Andrew, thank you for having me.

Andrew Hellmich: It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. How did you get into this, this brand of serving awkward and introverted couples?

Gary Pope: Well, I went down the rabbit hole of doing what a lot of folks suggest you to do, which is like, find your ideal top clients and like, I don't know if any of you guys ever heard this, but it's like, when you go down that hole where it's like, hey, figure out who your favorite clients are, who you've worked with in the past. Drop some avatar, some fake people, make like go through the entire steps of like, what they like, what their jobs are, what their weddings even gonna be, in fact, and drop those folks. And I did that. And it turned out for me, all my favorite couples I worked with in the past were all the geeky ones. They were all right up along lines of, like, the things I like, which is like, board games, video games, anime, all that sort of stuff. And also kind of worked out too, because they make decent money and stuff like that, so they're able to actually pay for weddings. Their interests also align with their wedding. So, like, they try to incorporate their hobbies into the wedding. And just like myself, I'm an introvert and I hate taking photos, which is why I'm behind a camera. So it's one of those things where, just like, it kind of worked out, where it's like figuring out who my ideal client pointed me in the right direction of doing that.

Andrew Hellmich: So did you do courses, or did you hire someone? Did you do something online to work out who that perfect avatar was?

Gary Pope: So initially, I took a course. I'm not sure if you would like me to talk about courses specifically,

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, yeah.

Gary Pope: Welcome to, so the course I took is Ben Hartley's book, Solid Course. Fantastic guy. His course is absolutely fantastic. While as a heads up, the course wasn't entirely about rebranding and all that stuff, but it did go through a decent amount of like, finding your ideal client and stuff like that. It taught you some exercises in it. And I kind of, like, took up to like, the 11th level, where it's like, then I did, like, a huge deep dive on it, because I, like you said an intro. I used to be a influencer in the board game space. I had a lot of connections where I can actually ask a decent chunk of folks like, "Hey, what are some things you're looking for in your wedding photographer since you're geeky, introverted? I even, like, literally, polled folks on names and stuff like that. I literally didn't even come up with the name myself. I polled a bunch of people, and someone suggested me that name, and I owe them a wedding, but, yeah, but pretty much what I did was I actually then reached out to like I had my target audience. I kind of then reached out to that target audience, and I asked them a bunch of questions that would pretty much help me guide along the ways of how I could serve them best and stuff and then everything else. Because I'm a geek myself, I figured out a lot of the other things myself that putting together puzzle pieces and stuff.

Andrew Hellmich: So did you? I'm assuming the answer is yes. Have an audience that you could actually go and ask these questions to was that from the YouTube days?

Gary Pope: Yes, yeah, that's from the YouTube days, because as a heads up, I didn't have like, a crazy big following. So if folks are like, "Oh, well, I don't have a following, so how am I supposed to get those sort of questions answered for myself and stuff like that?" I haven't that crazy big of a following. My YouTube channel was about 1.5k at the time of me doing that. My Twitter following was like, I think, like a thousand folks, or 800 folks, or something like that. So I was just, really just pulling that. So it's one of those things where that's what I was utilizing. But it's not something crazy that other people can't utilize themselves. There's a billion Facebook groups out there for literally everything under the sun where you could pull folks for under actually even also did that as well. And actually, good amount of my results were actually from Facebook groups as well, like going into those board game groups, key groups, anime groups, cosplay groups and stuff like that, asking questions there. So yeah, I got a ton of information from those things as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Can you give us an example of some of the questions you're asking to help form your website or your brand?

Gary Pope: Yeah, so a couple questions I'll ask was, for example, besides the help me figure out my name, it then also boiled down to, "Hey, can you guys think of any phrases from movies, shows and anime, and stuff like that, that would be, I guess, you could say interesting and relatable to you in ways." So I can actually, then not only look at that phrasing and look in that wording and stuff like that, but it was also good to just see what shows and what things I should actually start leaning towards with things. And that also leads into why, like, Harry Potter actually became a very big staple and a very big like, starting point in terms of, like, I guess you could say even niching down into the whole geek side of things as well, where it's not just about geeks, it's now, it's like, "Oh, now this is also the guy that's for Harry Potter wedding." So that's what helped a lot. And next on my list is now, is next Star Wars, and I think after that, is Lord of the Rings. So, but, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Love it. So did you find, I mean, in the beginning there, it sounded like you know you were talking to yourself in some regard, you know, you're geeky, you're introverted. These are all personality traits that you had, that your target clients were gonna have. Did you find, let's say Harry Potter, for example, were you not a Harry Potter fan and had to go and learn about it to utilize that brand?

Gary Pope: I liked Harry Potter. I wasn't a fan, like, a huge fan of it. Like, I wasn't like, I would even go as far as to say that if I was, like, going to Universal Studios right now, and it's like, "Hey, Gary, what do you want to do at Universal Studios?" I'll probably go do all the rides before I went to the Harry Potter section and stuff like that. So when people think that I'm a specialist, and they would naturally, all of a sudden, immediately assume that, oh, I'm a huge fan of the movies. I watch them all. I've read all the books, I've read all the books, I've watched all the movies, but I was all just, you know, younger years and stuff like that. But what has caused me to be a specialist in it nowadays is that I'm kind of leaned in it when it's geared towards weddings, like, for example, if you was to say, "Hey, Gary, which book did they do the unbreakable vow in?" I'd be like, "Oh, yeah, that's Half Blood Prince. "And that's just because I know that, because every other wedding that does a Harry Potter wedding, they want to do the unbreakable vow. So that's just something I know that's wedding related. So that's really all you need to know at the end of the day. And then over time, you'll learn more things. And you're not a specialist at first when people first hire you for it, you just learn it, and then you become a specialist over time. I consider myself a specialist. I've only been doing it for about a year and a half now. So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So is the new website only a year and a half old, or you're a specialist in Harry?

Gary Pope: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that right?

Gary Pope: I started rebranding in January of 2021, and that site wasn't done until about May of last year, and then since then. So that's what makes this even crazier, is that when people are like, "Oh, so you're a specialist in doing, like, Harry Potter weddings and stuff like that", it's like, yeah. And in that short amount of time I've done this year alone, I've done six Harry Potter weddings, like five or six Harry Potter weddings or something like that. And that's like, that's what couples or they're like, "Hey, we want a Harry Potter dude here, and we need someone who's going to know all the ins and outs. They're going to be able to edit like patronuses into photos. They're going to be able to do little tricks like that. They're going to know all the geeky quirks and stuff like that. They're going to know what to take photos of at the wedding and designs and everything." Yeah, so yeah, you'd be surprised how quickly you switch your brand and stuff. Wow. I love,

Andrew Hellmich: I love that I even asked you the question, and that it actually fits, because, like, on your website, you've got the ultimate Harry Potter wedding guide, and here you were a couple of years ago. I mean, you were into Harry Potter, but you weren't like, a massive fan, but now you've become the expert. I love that. That is so cool.

Gary Pope: Yeah. People always surprised when they hear about that. They're just like, "Wait. So you haven't been doing this for like, eight years, being a Harry Potter dude?" So that's like, "Nope, nope. Year and a half, two years."

Andrew Hellmich: You touched on the fact you've done, I think you said six or eight Harry Potter weddings this year. How many weddings are you shooting each year? What's your target?

Gary Pope: Weddings I'm booking myself, personally is roughly about 25 like, it's like 25 weddings at, like, maybe about midway through the year, but then by the end of the year, with last second bookings, ends up being around like 28-30 weddings or so. This next year is actually going to be a lot less, I feel. But that's also because I've increased my prices drastically. Last year my average wedding was around 4000 to $5,000ish, while this year, my average weddings around $7,000 with my packages going up to as much as 15k which I have booked, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic, awesome. So that was revenue around 100,000?

Gary Pope: Yeah, yep, yeah. It's around like, last year's round 100k. This year's, I think it's gonna end a year probably around like 130k somewhere around there, 140k.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. So this is your full time gig. Is it just you in the business?

Gary Pope: Yep, yep, yep, full time. I've been full time as of September 2021.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so not that long either. Unreal.

Gary Pope: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: What were you doing in addition to the photography before you jumped to full time?

Gary Pope: So I was doing IT work, and it kind of worked out perfectly because the pandemic happened. I mean, it sucks to say where it's like, oh, like, because the pandemic has screwed up a lot of lives. It was really bad thing. But for me, because I was doing IT, it did allow me to work from home. So it actually was kind of a good situation for me, because it allowed me to not only do my day job, but like, I had a lot of free time at that point, so I was able to actually work on my business at the same time. And even though I couldn't go out and shoot photos during the pandemic, and stuff like that, I've been bad, but I still was able to at least do a lot of things on the back end, which is why I was able to rebrand, do all those things and stuff like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, and how did you make come to the decision? "Okay, I'm going to quit the IT job", because I'm assuming and tell me, if I'm wrong, that was a stable job. You had to give notice, and that was it, that the ties were cut. How did you make that call? When did you know is it was the right time?

Gary Pope: Two things happened. The first thing that happened which I told myself, hey, once you reach this goal, quit. And that was when I was getting a consistent amount of leads. Like I was getting, like, I can't remember the exact number, but it was pretty much along the lines of, like, I was getting like a good 20 or so leads every single month in that like, if I'm even booking like two or three of them, then I'm fine. I'm good. I could pay my bills, I pay my taxes, pay all my business expenses, and everything's perfectly fine and dandy. But I chickened out. So when I actually reached that goal. When I reached that goal, I held that for about, I think, four to five months, while I was consistently getting like, 20 plus leads every single month. And then what ended up happening was, was that the thing that actually got me to quit was when I realized I had enough clients, and they were like, "Hey, Gary, we want to book something. Can you book it on this weekday or whatever?" And I'm just like, "No, I can't. I have work." And then they started getting to the point where every single weekend for like, months straight, I was just doing nothing but engagement sessions. And I was just like, "Oh, this is lame." Like I said, my all, it's one thing if I'm doing weddings, that's one thing. But if I'm just doing spending my entire weekends doing a bunch engagement sessions, I kind of like, it's not good, because I'd rather be at home with kids and stuff like that, hanging out, as opposed to doing engagement sessions. So that was the main driver, that actually forced me, was just, I wanted to get my time back.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, got it. Got it. You mentioned the kids. Are you married as well?

Gary Pope: Yes, yep, married. Been married for a year now, actually, but we've been living together for about, like, actually, we lived with each other through the pandemic, which was kind of like one of those things where it's like, "Oh yeah, we can work. We can survive the pandemic together. Then I think, I think this could work out." But yeah, I got a wife, two kids, yep, seven and nine.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, nice. And when you had the discussion with your wife about quitting the IT job, you know, was she scared? Did she have an income as well, or was it all going to rest on you? How did that work?

Gary Pope: So I am blessed because my wife is a trooper to be dealing with me. So pretty much what we did was that we pretty much agreed on, "Hey, if I'm going to actually quit and do this, we have to one, she actually has to become the breadwinner." Because when folks hear like, hey, making 100k plus in sales and stuff like that, when you boil down to numbers, that's not 100k dollars in your pocket that you could spend. So if that was the case, then hey, she probably wouldn't even have to work or anything like that. But that's not the case. So she had to become the breadwinner, and she actually was, because she got promoted, she went from being a teacher to a dean, so she was making good money at that point. She was actually able to pay all of our bills and stuff like that. Now that doesn't mean that I wasn't contributing anything, pretty much what it turned into was that while she was paying the main bills, I then, at that point became like, "Hey, handling debt and future investments, any spontaneous things we want to do, like if we want, all of a sudden, go on a little vacation or something like that that's coming out my pocket. Even though we technically got married last year, we're actually having our wedding next year. I'm paying for the whole wedding." So it's like little things like that, which makes this all work out the end of the day, because, and not only that, it's also one of those things where she also understands that at the end of the day, I'm trying to grow this business big enough to actually want her to quit. So it kind of sucks that she has to deal with like this little stuff for like, the next, like, the next, like, few years, something like that. But hopefully in a few years it turns around where it's like, "Hey, you quit if you want to, you, but you've been pulling your load for quite some time now, so take a break, so"

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. So what do you see like in five years’ time? Do you see you know, multiple photographers shooting under your brand? Is it or would you just have higher prices and more shoots?

Gary Pope: Both. So I'm actually currently working on both of those at the moment, right now. This past year was a real big, growing year for me finding associates because to work with my brand, I want to also make my associates work with my brand as well, and make it fit with my brand perfectly, so that I'm able to charge a premium for my associates, because when a lot of folks hire us, they have associate photographers, it's like, "Hey, I charge normally, like four to 5k for a wedding. If you're going to hire one of my associates, it's going to be like two to 3k or something like that." I want to be able to charge four to 5k for my associates, because their team I curated. And not only is it like really good squad of photographers, they're also really good squad photographers are personable. They're not going to be the kind of people that stand in the corner don't say anything. They're going to be joking with you guys and having a good time throughout the entire wedding. And then, on top of all that, they also, of course, have to be geeks. So it fits with a brand perfectly, and it also is one of those things where it's really hard to find associates. So that's why I've been working at this past year. And it's just one of those things where it's works out perfectly. Because when people are looking at me if I'm too high price, and if I ever want to raise my prices even more, then it still works. Where if they're talking to me, they're like, "Oh, we can't afford you at a higher price", because I'm trying to be 10k by, like, next spring-ish, a 10k average. But if I do that, then there's going to be, of course, a lot of couples are like, "Oh, you're too high for our budget. We could have worked with you." And I'm like, "Hey, guess what? I got all these other geeks right here. That'll be perfect for you." So, um, see, I'm trying to do both. Actually, in five years, it'll be the perfect world is that I'm shooting like, 10 weddings a year. Oh, average wedding is anywhere from 10 to 15k and then I have, like, a team of, like, at least, like 10 associate photographers, and they're probably doing like, 80 to 100 weddings a year. That's a perfect world to me. In five years, we'll see.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. I love the plans, I love the outlook. And you, I mean, for the listener, and for me, who's unaware with Connecticut, I imagine you have a big population that you can serve in that area?

Gary Pope: Yeah, Connecticut's a little bit of a cheat code, to be honest. Not that it's a the best market for wedding photography and stuff like that. If you're in New York or places like San Diego, where, like, I wouldn't be shocked if the average wedding photographer there's, like, 8K on average. So it's not that crazy. But one of the things that's really good about Connecticut is that we're in between three really big states for weddings. Where in between Boston, Massachusetts with Boston weddings, which those get really big weddings. We're in between New York, which is really big weddings as well. And we're also, surprisingly, not a lot of folks know about this, but Rhode Island is a really big wedding spot as well, and we're an hour and a half to two hour drive from all three of those places. And on top of that, having our own Connecticut weddings. And the other thing is that a lot of people that live in those three places, they have second houses or their first houses in Connecticut. So it's like, it's a very weird spot where people wouldn't think of it when just looking at a map, it's just like, like, "Oh, what's some really good spots to have a wedding business at Connecticut?" Surprisingly, a really good one. But with that being said, I am interested in actually expanding to the point where I would actually be, in a perfect world in two years, I might only do like, two to three weddings in Connecticut, and then the rest of them are all over the place, right?

Andrew Hellmich: And when you said that, you know, like Rhode Island, it has big weddings. Do you mean, like, a large number of weddings, or the weddings there are big weddings with big budgets?

Gary Pope: Uh, big weddings with big budgets, because a lot of the areas are, like, huge seaside mansions where just to rent the place alone and, like, get a catering team and stuff like that. You're probably talking words like on the low end, like, 50 to 60k like, and that's like on the low end, that's like, just to get your foot through the door. And there's plenty of places like that, in New York, on in Newport, Rhode Island, for example, and also Boston. So it's one of those things where it's like, big budget. So people could definitely afford a higher price photographer in those situations.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, so are they geeky and introverted couples having those kinds of weddings too?

Gary Pope: Yes, surprisingly, not everyone is. Which is why I kind of want to branch off into two separate businesses, where there's the high end, luxuriant and then the like, middle grade, like hey, associate photography side of things, because a lot of geeky couples, they're willing to, they're not having a grand, huge wedding, and that's actually what I dealt with a lot this year, was that they're not having super big, crazy weddings, and they're not, like, spending a ton of money on their wedding, but they're willing to spend above average for the wedding photography, because they definitely want that geeky touch when it comes to their wedding photos. So that's why I have the associates. But the few weddings I have where they were crazy big budgets. Yeah, they go all out for that. For example, I had a Harry Potter wedding this year where I am not exaggerating on the things that they did, but like, for example, the Harry Potter touch they had was they didn't tell anyone where the venue was going to be at. Instead, they had everyone go to a train station, and they rented out like five carts on a train, and they took everyone into the, everyone rode a train in, and they decorated like nine, three fourths, whatever. And they had everyone ride the train into the venue. And that was just to start the wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Gary Pope: The entire place was decorated with like wands all over the place, hanging from the ceiling, blind keys hanging from the ceiling all over the place. They had banners decorated down each aisle showing each of the houses, one of the kids, the sons of the couple. He literally made a project where he programmed the sorting hat, if you ever seen the sorting hat from Harry Potter, where, if you've never seen the movies, there's a hat where they put on people's heads, and the hat will then announce what house they're in. They had everyone have QR cards with their table seats on it, and it didn't tell them where. It didn't on the card didn't tell them where they're sitting. But if they scanned it on the sorting hat, it would then announce their table.

Andrew Hellmich: So good.

Gary Pope: Yeah. And on top of all this, when all said and done, they had all that decorations. And to top it all off, the bride, she surprised her husband with owls to appear at the wedding. And they had owl takers. And people can take photos near the owls, which, as a heads up, brings up to the specializing thing, going back to that, because the only reason why she even thought of bringing owls to the wedding was because I wrote that guide, the Harry Potter guide.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Gary Pope: Yeah, because in that guide, I randomly mentioned, "Hey, there's these guys in England that will, like, take your ring and they'll put it on an owl, and owl fly it down the aisle and deliver it for you during your wedding. Of course, they couldn't find anyone that could do that in Connecticut, but they were like, "Oh my god, we had to have owls at a wedding." Henceforth, they went out, found a place, and then they got owl keepers for their wedding as surprise.

Andrew Hellmich: So good, amazing. It really is varied. It sounds like you're in the best spot, the best of all worlds there, where you are in Connecticut. Let me take it back to your website, because you said earlier that, you know, once you got to that 20 leads per month. You knew that, okay, this could work. This has the potential to go ahead full time. What came first the leads or the marketing or the website, like, how were you bringing those leads in? What were you doing to get those?

Gary Pope: So it was a combination of doing a bunch of different things at once, and then kind of figuring out what worked best for me. Going back to that course, I mentioned it before, Ben Hartley's course, he teaches a lot about being everywhere and then, like, it's hard for people to ignore you. So that's kind of what I did, essentially, long story short, I built a website, rebranded and everything like that. But during this entire time, when I was rebranding, which took honestly, a good five to six months, I was doing a whole bunch of different things to slowly build a lot of things. I made a Facebook group, where the Facebook group is all about finding your Connecticut wedding venue. So it's actually getting folks very early in the process of planning out their wedding and stuff like that. If they see a lot of photos from me, they see a lot of articles from my website, and then kind of gets in the back of their mind that, "Oh, I'm a business, they can't kid me." They should check me out when they look for their weddings and stuff. So that helped out a ton. It didn't initially get me a ton of leads, to be really honest. That was something that took a very long time, but I did start the group about a year and a half, two years ago, and now it's at about 1.5k members in it. I have people that are joining it every single day. It's a great lead source. Now, at this point where I would say at least once a week, once every other week, I have someone reaching out to me, being like, "Hey, I saw you on the site. I'm reaching out to you. And also, by the way, thank you for helping me find my venue, like I saw when your articles. It was super helpful." But yeah, so that was one lead sources.

Andrew Hellmich: So just with a group, are the members of the group helping each other as well, or are they relying on you for all the content?

Gary Pope: Both. So what happens is, is that what I did was I intentionally didn't allow other vendors into the group, but if any vendors were going to be led in the group, they were either people I knew, people that I saw constantly in other groups, and they were always being helpful and they weren't being self-promoting. They were actually answering questions and stuff. And the third thing is venue owners. So nowadays, whenever people ask questions in the group, typically what happens is, like, the venue owners will be like, the first people to answer, and then I'll show my expertise by usually answering folks in extreme depth, which is like, an example would be like, if someone's like, "Hey, I'm trying to find a wedding venue where I need 80 people to be able to fit there. There needs to be overnight accommodations. And I hate barns." So while most folks would sit there and be like, "Oh, go to Meadow Brook barn or go to wet barn, museum", whatever, I would then sit there and be like, "Hey, answer these other five questions for me, and I'll come up with a list of like, six places. Six places for you, and I'll even write a description on each one, and I'll link you to every single one of their sites and stuff like that", so that then at the end of the day, people are like, "Oh, he's really helpful. Like everyone else is helping out, but like, once Gary answers, like, you're gonna get, like, a serious answer, where he's spent time figuring it out for you".

Andrew Hellmich: So you don't literally know the answer when they ask a question. You've got to actually go away and do some research?

Gary Pope: ere's the funny thing, just like with the whole specializing with, uh, Harry Potter weddings and stuff like that, at first you are doing a lot of research, but over time, you then just know. So it's a after answer like, because this is like, something where I answer one of these questions probably every day, every other day, and after doing that for a year, year, and have two years, I know a lot about the venues out in this area where it's like, "All right, you need a 250 guest wedding spot that is near a body of water that has white walls on the inside, because they'll match your decorations. And you don't want to spend over 15k, all right? You probably want to go to like, I don't know, Merlot on the Water", so, but yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So you become the expert. So with that, if one of the venue owners says, "Hey, pick me, you know, we're perfect", will you actually go in and say, "Well, yeah, they're good but you can also got this, this and this", like, will you override or go against what one of your members say?

Gary Pope: I don't. So what I do and I don't do, is I don't, let's say hypothetically, if someone says, "I don't want a barn" and then a barn venue answers and say, "Hey, come to me". I don't go into their comments and say, "Nah, screw this venue. This is a bad choice. This is a bad choice for you". I don't do that. But what I would do is that when I write my own comment, I will list my own places that I would suggest. I don't undermine other folks' responses. But yeah, I do see that a lot, where the people are like, I don't want a barn, and then, like, five barn venues. Answer be like, "Hey, check me out." I'm like, "That's right, wasting your time."

Andrew Hellmich: And do you get other members in the group saying to the barn owners, "Hey, can't you read the initial question? They don't want a barn, and you're a barn." Do people do that? And if they do, do you moderate that comment?

Gary Pope: Surprisingly, I've not seen it yet. Now that you mentioned, I'm actually surprised I haven't seen it yet so, but yeah, the worst things I have to moderate in the group are just folks at random week that somehow got in, that are trying to self-promote or and that's pretty much it. That's like the most I have to moderate on a day to day basis, which isn't a lot, to be honest, as long as you do your due diligence of actually looking at who joins the group that solves 99% of your problems when it comes to monitoring afterwards,

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Got it. Okay, mate, let's move on. So you said the group's working now, but it wasn't in the beginning. What was working in the beginning?

Gary Pope: So a few things working in the beginning. I was in several other places. I was also one of those folks where I wouldn't always recommend this for folks, but if you're kind of desperate for leads, you know how like Facebook groups, they'll be like, "Hey, I'm looking for a wedding photographer."" And then people respond to and stuff like that. Absolutely every wedding photographer responds to it within a 500 mile radius, and within about 10 minutes, there's about 500 responses to a request. So as a heads up, when folks say, like, Hey, don't do that to waste time." It isn't. It isn't. It is a waste of time if you're just responding to something like two days later and you don't feel like you're a good fit for them, what I usually do is I personally vet every single one of those posts I see, I actually look at the person's profile, and I actually see like, "Hey, is this person even a slight bit geeky?" Like, is this something where they might be interested in at all? And usually if the person's a decent fit, or if something that they said aligns with my brand heavily, like, if they say, "Hey, I feel like I'm going to be incredibly awkward in front of the camera." That's my brand too, because a part of my brand is doing games and acting prompts instead of standard poses and stuff. So if anything that they said aligns with my brand, and if they look at my website, they'll be like, within seconds, they'll be like, "Oh yeah, that is exactly what I'm looking for." Then I'll respond. And the good thing about that is a lot of folks say like, "Yeah, but they don't really check me out when I write that", that is true. And as like, I would say, like, no joke. I wish I was like, I wish the numbers were better. But this is probably, like, a worst case scenario. I probably get like, one response out of 10 times I do those comments, maybe. The good thing about is that, over time, if you do that an okay amount, and you respond properly, and you also address their concerns and problems and stuff, it's one of those things where you'd be surprised at how many other people see those posts and they see those comments, and you'd be very surprised, because I get comments all the time when, okay, here's something that's weird. It's not out of the ordinary for me to go to a wedding and be working with another couple, but then one of the guests is just like, "Dude, Gary, you helped me out the other day." And I'm like, "What? All right." Or like, they'll be like, "Hey, Gary, like, I actually saw your comment about, like, on someone else's thing, and I reached out to you, like, a week ago about it, and they're like, I can't wait to talk to you." Like, that happens way more often than you'd expect because of that.

Andrew Hellmich: So that by having your very specific brand and target audience, it makes it easier for you to pick and choose who you comment to," how you comment. I mean, it is a shotgun approach, but it's a targeted shotgun approach, isn't it?

Gary Pope: Yes, exactly. And it also boils down, besides just being like highly, extremely specific on the type of clients I work with and stuff like that. That helps a lot when it comes to people noticing me, especially out of the crowd. Like, if there's 100 people that post, they'll see that one person who's just like, "Oh well, this person didn't just copy and paste a typical response. They answer the question, and they also fit the brand." And also so it stands out I stand like a sore thumb. But also what helps out is that besides just answering those questions. I also answer a lot of formal questions as well, where informal questions, where people are asking questions like they're like, hey, it's not just about wedding venues either, it's not even about wedding photography either, someone could be asking about DJs, and I'll be like, "Hey, photographer here, as someone who also used to DJ back in the day, which I actually did, I would highly recommend these DJs." And the thing is that when you show up more groups like that, you'd be surprised at how many people see that stuff, like they see me all the time. And it's one of those things where, like I said before, people come run up to me and talk to me all the time about how much I help them out in a group and stuff. So yeah, being present helps a lot.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you were doing a lot of that in the early days.

Gary Pope: Yes, I still do a decent amount of it. Now I'm trying to pull back a bit because I would rather be focusing on SEO and growing that, because if I step away from my computer for three months, SEO is still going to be working for me, but corresponding to comments is going to eventually kind of dwindle down a little bit. But yeah that is my main source of leads at the moment.

Andrew Hellmich: So in the early days, though, it still sounds like you haven't said, you know, I ran Facebook ads. I went to bridal or wedding expos, or is that what you call them in the States, expos?

Gary Pope: Yeah, bridal expos, bridal shows, yeah, pretty much same thing.

Andrew Hellmich: So how did you get these 20 leads a month?

Gary Pope: So I was doing those as well, but they weren't as effective. I would say, for example, when I ran ads, everyone tries to do typical ads where it's like, "Hey, buy my stuff. Hey, here's 10% off, or something like that." Those didn't necessarily work for me. I would rarely get leads from those directly. I would see more engagement with me responding to things in Facebook groups, and was giving me traction to Facebook ads. Now I will say this, this is one thing that did work with me when it came to Facebook ads, and that was just being focusing on more brand awareness. I wasn't exactly trying to get a lead from that ad. It was just, "Hey, remember my name, remember my face, remember my business name." And those worked really well because, like, for example, I would run ads pointing to my Harry Potter guide. And you'd be surprised at how actually naturally organic, that that actually grew from me running those ads. I think last time I ran those ads, I got like 100 likes on it, or something like that. And like, every day I would get a comment with someone's just like, "Hey, Susan, check out this guide. If only you could have used this a month ago", and like stuff like that. So pointing out to like, helpful things like that, helpful information that worked like a ton when it came to building organic growth. Of course, like I said before, it's hard to explain, but I'm not getting direct leads from it. But one thing I always saw that was very common was for someone to mention "Hey, they saw my ad with that guide, and it was so useful. And that's actually how I kind of heard about you, and then went down this rabbit hole over then checking you out for the next, like, three to four months or whatever, before I decided to reach out to you." It's one of those things where that happened a lot, so.

Andrew Hellmich: It looks like you take a very soft approach. I mean, I expected when I clicked on your Harry Potter guide that I would have to opt in, and then you're going to send it to me, but it's actually all there on the page. It's not locked away. You're not only giving halfway. You've got the whole guide there.

Gary Pope: Yeah, I didn't want to lock anything up because of SEO purposes. The second you lock it up behind SEO, lock it up then, yeah, people can opt in, they get the guide to have in their emails, and they can be reaching out to stuff like that. And I'll be honest, it may actually technically work better for getting direct leads, because you're getting those emails and stuff, but at the end of the day, it's not as shareable because they have to opt in and stuff. And also it's not going to rank in SEO. And with Harry Potter things, you'd be surprised. There's a decent amount of tracks you go at Harry Potter related things, and also just other things in general, but it's one of those things where I want a traction there as well, right?

Andrew Hellmich: So you keep saying, SEO is that sort of overtaken your other lead generation efforts?

Gary Pope: Yes, it's definitely taken over my efforts. In terms of results, not yet, similar, similar to when I started with the whole Facebook group stuff, and that's slowly growing. And then now, at this point, now, it's actually gave me a good amount of traction now, without me how to really do much for it at all. That's the same thing wish I want to do with SEO at this moment, and I've been doing a lot of work with that, um, going as far as to, I wish I was joking, but I spent like, at least 10k on SEO, and I've learned a lot, a lot from that, lot of mistakes.

Andrew Hellmich: You paid an agency or you did courses?

Gary Pope: No. So what I actually ended up doing was I hired writers and I hired a web developer to, kind of like, because I was getting so much writing done, I hired a web developer to then also put the things that the writers were writing onto the blog post as well. So long story short, I had a team. I literally had a team of about five different folks out working on my website. And I wish I was exaggerating this. I wish I was exaggerating this, but in Connecticut, I wrote about, well, I didn't technically write, but my writers wrote about 90 or 100 wedding venues. I think I only have about 85 of them published at the moment. And then we went as far as to also write about Massachusetts, which is another about 80 to 90 wedding venues. Rhode Island, another 80 or 90 wedding venues. Uh, New York, another 80 or 90 wedding venues. And even Texas, because I was thinking about moving to Texas in a couple years, and I was like, "You know what? I want to get ahead of this. So I wrote, ahead of this." So I wrote about Texas wedding venues, and that's like another 50 or 60. And the funny thing is that if you look at my site, you'll be like, "Hey, I don't see those other wedding venue sites." And I'm like, I didn't upload them yet. I didn't, I had to do is hit a publish now, they'll be online. And that's all because I want to one, see how it worked in Connecticut and then transfer what I learned and stuff like that into other states. But also it's one of those things where it's like, I wanted to master Connecticut, and then after I get my SEO working in Connecticut, then I could grow into other places once Google isn't so, it's not going to say like, "Hey, why are you being in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, all these other states?" I'd rather focus on one. Google recognize me for one place, and then I can expand from there, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you got your writers to write articles or blog posts on each of the different venues in Connecticut, for example, you've added photos to those, and this is to bring SEO traffic to your website. Are you actually seeing any results yet? Or does this take a long time?

Gary Pope: So okay, so this entire, I make it almost seem like it almost seem like it was a waste of time. It wasn't. It's just that, I guess I did too much work. I guess the best way to put I could have saw just as good a result with less work, because what I ended up seeing was that, yes, I am seeing a ton of results. I think last year I'd have to double check my numbers by wouldn't be shocked if last year my average, like, monthly views was like, around, like, 300 views or something like that. While this year, my average views per month is, like, I don't know, at least, like, a good two and a half grand, three grand or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay.

Gary Pope: Yeah, so I get a decent amount of views nowadays. It's just that when it comes to ranking for my main keywords, that's one of my bigger struggles, because I am ranking for a lot of different wedding venue, things like, page one for some, page two for another. I might have images on firm page for others, or what have you. Or when you look up particular phrases for 'wedding venues to have', I'll pop up first for them, and stuff like that. So I'm getting, like, a lot of little bits of traffic in random spots, and it adds up over time, because it's literally, like I said, it's like 100 articles. So it does add up, but it's one of those things where the reason why it's, I could have done less work with better results is that to get my main keywords. I could have done different things, such as like focusing more on backlinks and focusing more on specific articles for my area and stuff like that to focus on instead.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So for example, if you wanted to rank for 'Connecticut wedding photographer', then that's going to take more work and more effort, if you just focused on that term.

Gary Pope: Exactly, just like before with the other thing, I did a shotgun approach, as opposed to, like, focusing on one little thing. It's worked out for me in the end, but like I said, could win about it differently.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So if you were to relive what you spent again. For example, you had $10,000, if I gave you $10,000 to spend on SEO, what would you do today?

Gary Pope: So easily what I would have done is, is that, instead of writing about 100 wedding venues….

 
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Andrew Hellmich: We can talk about it in the PhotoBizX members group when this goes live, if you're using it, then that'd be awesome.

Gary Pope: Okay

Andrew Hellmich: Gary, you've been amazing. I've had a ball talking to you. I expected to hear this one strategy that was working for, I didn't expect it to be just be helpful. Who would have guessed? Amazing! Where is the best place for a listener to see more of you and your work?

Gary Pope: Yeah, if you want to actually see my work itself as a wedding photographer, you definitely could check me out at www.lovelongandprosperphotography.com and it's Love Long and Prosper Photography on pretty much all my socials. Also, as a heads up, I am actually starting up, because I did start out doing a board game YouTube channel, I am actually starting up a YouTube channel as well, and that actually should probably be up within the next, like week or two, or something like that, with a couple episodes already done and everything. And that's actually going to be at Gary Pope Jr. You just looked me up on YouTube and actually translated my old board game YouTube channel into this. So if you see some board game stuff when you first see it, you're in the right spot. But yeah, it's Gary Pope Jr.

Andrew Hellmich: So why 'Gary'? And I'm going to link to all these in the show notes, but I'm curious now, why use Gary Pope Jr there and not in a Love Long and Prosper?

Gary Pope: Because I wanted to separate it. I don't want my clients to see it. And then they see and they're like, "Oh, are these, like, going to be, like, my wedding videos and stuff like?", that's like, "No, this is actually going to be more for like, tips, tricks, education." Also, I'd like to do like, stupid things and like, for example, like, with the whole story about the 10k, me spending 10k on my SEO. It's like one of those things where, like, I want to do other stupid experiments like that, where it's like, "Oh, let's see if this dumb tactic that folks may not try out would actually work." And I kind of want to go down that rabbit hole of trying those sort of little things.

Andrew Hellmich: Love it. Okay, so this is going to be more for photographers than for your potential clients.

Gary Pope: Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Well, let me know the link to that. I'll include that in the show notes, and we can talk more about that in the group when this goes live. Gary, you've been amazing. I'm so glad we connected. Thank you so much for coming on, sharing what you have. It's been a pleasure.

Gary Pope: Andrew, thank you for having me, like I talked in the pre-show, I've been a fan of your show for years now, at this point, I've been loving it. So keep doing it. It's uh, I need something to listen to on those rides to these weddings. So thank you.