596: John Dolan – Balancing Art, Business, and Authentic Storytelling in Photography

596: John Dolan - Balancing Art, Business, and Authentic Storytelling in Photography

 
Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is a superstar in the world of photography. He's built a career of advertising, editorial and fine art photography over the past 30 years. He's also the author of a reasonably recent book, The Perfect Imperfect, which has the foreword written by Martha Stewart, and one of his testimonials I read was by Jerry Seinfeld, who says John has photographed our family for 20 years. It is, to us, a priceless view of who we are and wouldn't exist without his gifted shutter lens and eye. He's photographed the weddings of celebrities, including Will Smith, Gwyneth Paltrow, Ben Stiller, and so many more. And he says that some photographers are directors, but I'm a collector. I've also read that he said his target at a wedding is to capture 15 amazing photographs. He still shoots 70% film and believes weddings are too important to play it safe. I'm talking about none other than John Dolan, and I am rapt to have him with us now. John, welcome.

John Dolan: Andrew, thanks for having me. Thanks for inviting me on.

Andrew Hellmich: It's a pleasure. When you hear names like that thrown out in an intro. Does that sit totally comfortable with you? Are they just normal people to you?

John Dolan: I think they're people who need real photographs. I think there's one thing I've learned about celebrities, is that they have paparazzis and they have iPhone pictures. So it is an ultimate privilege for me to photograph people who are so beautiful in the lens. You know, they're just so easy to photograph. But I also, I've always done it in a sort of anti-paparazzi way, where I'm a trusted friend, or I pretend to be a friend, but I don't interject myself, and that's why I use that term, the collector. I'm not trying to tell these people who are so accomplished in their own lives what to do on their wedding day. I'm just with them along for the ride and letting them be themselves without worrying of you know, the way a press person might take advantage of them.

Andrew Hellmich: Then aren't you approaching the wedding day like a paparazzi in some form, because you're not really directing them by the sound of, you're just capturing what you see what's in front of you.

John Dolan: But I'm not. I'm more inside rather than outside. I was photographing an event on Saturday, and there were some very well-known people there, and I had to use my body to gain their trust so that I could be five feet away from them, three feet away from them, and take a very simple picture, but without, they're not looking the camera. They're just in the middle of a conversation. But it's a different approach, where in 30 years, you're going to look back and say, Oh, that's what that person really looked like.

Andrew Hellmich: When I read that intro, I get the impression that you also photograph family portraits, or is it purely weddings and events?

John Dolan: No, I do private commissions for some people. I do events. I do birthday parties. I do... It's really, if somebody understands my approach, then it's a joy to come and be their chronicler of their life. That's really what it's about. It's that, you know, I think they're and I also want to make the point, I don't do that many celebrities. I do, you know one every other year, or something like that. But I get just the loveliest people who care about photography, and they're under such pressure to perform that I want to give them a day off and just say, you know, I'm not going to take advantage of this situation. I'm going to make something real so that your kids will have these pictures.

Andrew Hellmich: So with the celebrities that you have photographed and with your style of photography, do you ever have the situation where they say, John, we love you and your work. We want you to come to the wedding and photograph the way you see, but we're also going to have another shooter that shoots in a different style? Does that happen?

John Dolan: You know, it happens every once in a while, not that often. And I don't mind it. I play well with others. I prefer to be very low impact. And so it's, you know, I often shoot by myself. Sometimes I'll bring a second shooter, but I would say more with non-celebrity wedding clients than some of them hire another photographer to do the table settings or the decor or something like that. And I think that's a brilliant thing. It frees me up to do what I'm good at.

Andrew Hellmich: So if you're shooting solo, do you capture those, all those things that they've spent money and time and effort into designing for the day?

John Dolan: No. I always miss them. So the wedding planners who hire me know that I'll miss them, so they arrange somebody came in for an hour or two. And yeah, it's also a lot of the people I photograph hate being photographed, which is a really lovely client, because they've just never been photographed in the right way. So hopefully, when I deliver my pictures to someone who's shy or uncomfortable in front of the camera, they see themselves in a new way, and I become sort of a hero for making a picture of somebody who says, “Oh, I never take a good picture”. People blame themselves when they don't look good in a picture, and often it's the photographer's fault.

Andrew Hellmich: So how do you get to that position, though, because, I mean, I imagine that you don't get to spend a day getting to know your clients before you turn up to the event. You know, you may have been booked by the by the planner. You may be, I don't know, do you have an hour's conversation on the phone or zoom? What happens before one of these celebrity weddings?

John Dolan: It's a good question. The celebrities are different, but I think one of the skills I've learned over the years is how to get comfortable with people very quickly. It's part of our toolkit, and it's an amazing skill that where you skip the small talk and you get trusted some, it's all about trust, and somehow you build that bond really fast. And I've always enjoyed working with actors, you know, even in sort of documentary work, because they're spontaneous, they're improvisational, they know how to play that game. And I think that's something I've learned as I've matured. With a lot of my other wedding clients, I'll meet people and have a drink with them before, you know, six months before the wedding, so that when we see each other on the wedding day, we are sort of old friends, new old friends.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay. So, and that's like a, I guess, a traditional in air quotes photographer would deal with a regular client. We'd go and meet them, we have a meeting, get to know them, and then turn up on the wedding day.

John Dolan: Yeah, I think it's I certainly didn't do it for many years. I thought the engagement pictures were sort of cheesy, and then I started using it as a way to break bread with people, to share stories, to hear their love story, and then do a couple rolls of film, and also kind of introduce them to how I photograph and how my camera works and just get see who blinks a lot, to see who's awkward in front of the camera, all those sorts of things. So I think it's a very valuable thing to make first contact before the wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so this is interesting to me, because looking at your photography and listening to the way you shoot a wedding, it sounds like you're there, you're almost part of the family, capturing what you see. But if you meet a couple before the wedding, six months before, and you're going to do an engagement session, surely you have to do some direction then.

John Dolan: Yes, but it's an acknowledgement that engagement pictures are awkward and they have no internal drive to them. A wedding day has an internal engine. But I think even acknowledging it after a glass of wine, with some people saying, this is really strange, but let's walk over to the river in Manhattan and I also lay down these sort of laws. Number one, I have no expectation of you to perform, awkward is beautiful, all these sorts of things, just to let them relax. And, you know, they wear normal clothes, they have normal hair, they're just, it's more for me, this kind of sacred year, six months, nine months between being engaged and getting married. And I mean, ideally, I would love to take these pictures and put them in a box for 10 years, because I think you don't appreciate those pictures until you've got a couple kids running around the house. And so I'll send them a few pictures, but I don't do a big thing about it, and I don't charge for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. So this is really a get to know you meeting, and we'll get a few photos.

John Dolan: Exactly, it's a first date, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I like that. Yeah, you mentioned that you're not shooting that many celebrity weddings, and the bulk of your time is photographing regular people.

John Dolan: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Are they still booking you through a planner? In most cases?

John Dolan: I'm sure, if I analyzed it, it would be 90% through planners. And that's I would say, I have five or six planners in the states who I've known for years, and they will literally text me or call me and they say, I've got one for you. And that means they know my strengths. They know who to match make me with, a shy person, an understated connoisseur, somebody who studied art. There's kind of a type of person who appreciates what I do, and they don't want to have a big glam squad, and they don't want to be, you know, photographed for hours. They want to enjoy their wedding. And so it's a beautiful relationship I have with planners.

Andrew Hellmich: Is it the same planners that are also booking the celebrity weddings? Or there's a different clientele altogether?

John Dolan: It's a mix. It's, yeah, it's most, I would say it's sort of the same planners in many of the occasions, because once you've built that trust and that track record with people, then if they get hired by a celebrity, then they know they can rely on you to deliver in that same approach, that same style. So I think it's important for anybody who's building their career to shift from being a maximalist, they want to get as many jobs as possible, to really telling your planners or yourself who your people are. And I think that alignment is so amazing once you hit it, because we've all been at the wedding where we're not the right photographer where it's not a perfect fit. And I know we all have financial, you know you have to pay your mortgage, you have to pay your rent, so you take jobs, but take notes of when you feel yourself at your best self, and when you feel handcuffed by the expectations.

Andrew Hellmich: I like that, and I'm glad you pointed out the fact that people do have to pay their mortgages, because sometimes you don't have a choice. You have to say yes or you're looking for more ‘yeses’ to get more booking so I guess was there a point for you and your career where you said, “Okay, I can start to say no now”. And when was that?

John Dolan: Six months ago? I mean, there's a few things going on. One is rates have climbed over the last five years, which is amazing for the whole industry, and shocking. I mean, I didn't charge a lot for the first 10 years. I started having kids, and, you know, with each kid, I would raise my prices. But it really is a robust industry now, and having been in it for 30 years, it's gratifying to see so many people who were able to make a living at wedding photography, because that was not possible, it was harder in the 90s and early 2000s, so I'm happy that people are able to do this. But you know, life is always complicated, and I think you have to find that mix of art and commerce where you're making art, you're making your rent, but you're not burning out. I meet a lot of photographers who've done too many weddings in a row, and they can't remember their last client's name, and they, you know, they're just flooded. They have eight weddings to edit, and it's just not sustainable. And I've seen a lot of burnout. So I love to try to encourage people to find your people, set your price, find the number of weddings you want a year. For me, it's 10. Some people, it's 15, and just you know, you can have a really happy life in your community, wherever you are. In Australia, in Iowa, you know I've met all kinds of people in small cities just building a really beautiful career.

Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like you raised your prices because the household needed the extra income, anytime the new child was born, you raised your prices. So knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently, if anything, in regard to pricing?

John Dolan: I think I did what I had to do. And the beginning of each year, I'd sort of set my rate for that year and hold my breath to think if I could hit it. Because, you know, January, February, March, are always a little tricky in the States, and you think you're never going to work again, and then all of a sudden, you're booked with 15 weddings for the year. So uncertainty is the most reliable thing in being freelance. That's the only thing I've learned for 30 years. So I mean, I think I've been nimble and I think I've been scrappy, and when I shot a lot of magazine work, it was for $500 a day, but it was great exposure, you’d be in every magazine store in America. I don't know. I certainly could have run my business in a more professional way, but I never wanted to be professional. I wanted to be personal.

Andrew Hellmich: How could you have been more professional?

John Dolan: Whatever? I don't even know what professional people do with their businesses, but, you know, a lot of it's foreign to me, spreadsheets and CRMs and all those things. I really, I run a very simple, not a mom and pop business, but a very streamlined, my contracts very simple, because everything's based on trust. Even with some of my celebrities, I never did NDAs because I said to them, you can destroy me in a tweet. So you can trust me. I will not break our trust, because the downside risk is so big. A piece of paper is not going to, you know, scare me as much as your two thumbs.

Andrew Hellmich: That's a good point. So are you saying or am I hearing that some celebrities, or a celebrity asked you to sign an NDA and you refuse, or you said, I'm happy to do that, but listen, it's not going to change anything.

John Dolan: Yeah, I just sort of had the conversation like, let's just, let's make this a different kind of relationship based on two people trusting each other. And I don't even remember the exact details of it, but it really brought it out to me that getting lawyers involved is kind of a silly thing for my approach, and I've been lucky for 30 years, just because it's such a I guess my overall thing that I'm trying to describe is that my approach to wedding photography is that we are unlike any other vendor, because we see people at the most vulnerable. We see them getting dressed, we see them crying. We see, I hear from people when their grandfather dies, and I have this picture, so I've moved my business, I mean, I never even set it up as a very sort of corporate structure way, you know, I want people to call me. I don't have a form on my website saying, you know, answer these 10 questions, so I will maybe email you back in a few days. I just, I love to get on the phone with people and say, tell me about your wedding. And I'm saying to myself, does this sound like the sort of story I can tell? And then when it's a match, it's a really beautiful thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Am I right in assuming you have, you know, paper files and a filing cabinet to keep records these days, you're not even here.

John Dolan: I could show you, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So literally, no CRM, as little computer work as you have to.

John Dolan: For the business side, it's pretty it's really, it's embarrassingly simple. You know, I have a list of dates where I'm on hold or where I'm booked, and I'll highlight certain ones where I get booked, and I'll put the date that the deposit came in on one spreadsheet. So, you know, it's very just rudimentary, because I'm at a scale of 10 weddings, so it's, you know, simpler for me, if somebody's got 25 and they have associates shooting, that's a whole another business. But I've really refined it at this point in my life of just how simple can I make this whole endeavor? Somebody calls me, tell me the date. I don't need to know a shot list. Just tell me what time to be there for the first event, and I'll do all my own travel. I'll do all my own arrangements, and I will be there at that time.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. I mean, it doesn't sound like you're saying to the listener, hey, you can run your business more simply by doing what I do. It really depends on the scale of the business, even if they're charging less.

John Dolan:
Exactly, yeah. And yeah in some ways, I'm talking to that person who is insecure in business, or is not, didn't work in a corporate structure or something, somebody who's just more on the artist side, saying this can actually work if you structure your business as in a really interpersonal way that, you know, I charge a really healthy rate, and then I don't nickel and dime people, I don't send them receipts. The people I deal with don't want to be bothered by anything, so I do as little. I don't put anything on their plate. I try to take things off there, take stress away from them. That's for me, the value of my whole performance is when we interact, I'm going to be very loving and caring, and you're under a lot of stress, I'm going to not add anything to it.

Andrew Hellmich: I can hear, even with your voice, that you wouldn't be adding to the stressful day. I mean, you just come across as a very relaxed photographer, person. Is this how you are in everyday life?

John Dolan: You could ask my wife, but I mean, it's a circular kind of experience that I have at 400 weddings. I've absorbed a lot of stress, and I realized that I am good at what I do, because I get calm around nervous people, when people are freaking out. It's a really comfortable place for me, because it's like, I'm the youngest of six. I was brought up in a very, you know, lively household, so being quiet and hiding underneath the dining room table is my happy place. And that's pretty much every wedding reception, and it's mostly because people can't see the camera when they're laughing and telling stories that they're having fun at their wedding, they get very unaware of me, which is a beautiful thing, and also it's taught me that life is complicated, and you just hear story after story at people's weddings. About tragedies and triumphs and life's I don't you just hear biographies all the time, so it just makes me come home, hug my wife and say, you know, we're doing all right. And I learned some really human things this weekend. So it’s my church, basically.

Andrew Hellmich: You make it sound like a pretty special place to be at these weddings. I want to get onto your work in just a second. But again, you said to us that you only photograph some celebrity. That's not a big thing, a big part of what you do. But I'm still assuming that your regular clients are very well to do. If they're paying your rates, you're only doing 10 weddings a year. I mean, they're probably high flyers, as far as I'm concerned, is that right?

John Dolan: Some of them are. I always find a few people who I just align with, and I just, somehow I just have to shoot their wedding, whether it's a friend of my children's or school teacher or something. But I have a firm belief in a sort of Greek way of the wedding gods that the wedding gods deliver, and I used to get so upset if I didn't get a wedding that I really wanted, but then I've learned over the years, you know, sometimes you don't get a wedding that you really want, and then something else happens that's better. And so I definitely shoot for a lot of wealthy Americans who collect art and their connoisseurs, they wouldn't want cheesy wedding pictures in their house with all the beautiful things they have so, and they're lovely people because they appreciate me as an artisan, as a you know, they know that I'm going to give them something special, almost like a private chef or whatever other private thing they have, private banker, private health care. So it's a niche that it's taken me many years to find, but it's a really special place.

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds amazing. I mean, it sounds like you get to shoot with total freedom. You get to create the kind of work that you want to create at the weddings, and the client pays for it, which what a beautiful place to be.

John Dolan: But I would say, certainly, when I started out the first 50 weddings, that's what I did as well. There's a middle part that's a little hard where you’re, it's almost like when the plane takes off, it's smooth, and then it goes through rough air, and then when you get to 35,000 feet, it's smooth sailing. But I certainly met some photographers who are in this middle place of shooting for people with medium to good budgets, but they're very demanding, and it's, you know, you have to work your way through it all. But for me, I shoot the same way I've always shot.

Andrew Hellmich: So talking about the way you shoot and some of your work, I mean, I'm looking, say on your blog at the moment as we record, and the very first blog post, there is one on your book, The Imperfect. And for the listener, if they can't see this right now, hopefully I can put this in the show notes. But there's a bride and groom, they're holding hands. It's a blurry black and white shot, and I say blurry because there's movement. You can't recognize the couple. Are you familiar with this photo that I'm talking about, John?

John Dolan: That sounds like all my pictures.

Andrew Hellmich: So this is, this is my point, or leads to my question. So you have this kind of work feature on your website, and we always here show what you want to be shooting.
John Dolan
Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that how you lived or have lived your life as a photographer, show what you want to shoot.

John Dolan: Yes. And that picture, I just looked at the picture you're talking about, that picture, to me, shows what that couple was feeling. So it's that intersection. How do you take a picture of what somebody else is feeling in their gut and in their heart? And if I had shot a sharp version of that, it would have flattened it, because it was, this was 11 o'clock at night. They're running towards they were sleeping in a teepee that night, or something, a yurt. And it summed up this, their free spirit and all these things. So I'm trying to make those, you know, a picture that represents so much more than the reality, that's really the the next level I'm trying to get to. I could take the picture of what it looked like, I want to take a picture of what it felt like. And that means I have to be as emotional as they are, or I have to be in rhythm with their emotion. So I'd love that you've saw that picture, because it’s not a blurry picture because I shook the camera on purpose. It's because I was running in the misty rain after them, and they looked so beautiful. So like, can I capture that?

Andrew Hellmich: I love it as a photographer, and I know that listener will fall in love with the photo as well. But do you ever have a client? What do you do if a client says, John, we love that photo. We love that moment. Do you have a sharp version?

John Dolan: Well, your initial question was good, do I show to prospective clients these pictures? And I've always have. I’ve always tested the limits of people when I meet them, so I'm not showing them, I’m really trying to just mess with them a little bit to gage their tolerance. And the people who say, “do you have a sharper version?”, somehow they realize I'm not the right photographer, if that's their main question. It's not an interesting conversation, if we're stuck on that. So, you know, I really try to reach people. And at this point my career, I have a book that says imperfect on it. So it should say, perfectionists need not apply.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

John Dolan: But it's, you know, I think I've made it clear to people what my philosophy is, and it's a very inside rather than, you know, rather than a clear-eyed view. It's an emotional approach to photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So what about the photographer who is dreaming of being where you are now being able to shoot with, let's say, abandon, and capture what they see, what they feel, and produce images like this. They show this kind of work on their website, and they don't get the bookings. What do they do? Like this is what they want to create, but they're just not getting booked for it.

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Andrew Hellmich: I love that. For the listener, if you could give them one place to go to see more of your work, learn more about you, see your photography, learn about your classes, where should we go? Where's the one place the listeners should go once they've heard you today?

John Dolan: Instagram is really the only social media I do, and I must say, I'm really just talking to photographers on Instagram. It’s, I can tell who my, you know the way you know your listeners. I have a really strong thing that I know that I'm talking to photographers, as opposed to clients. Clients see it, it's great. But I'm mostly in conversation with people, even to the extent of, I did a post one time on Monday saying, for wedding photographers, Monday is Saturday and Sunday is Sunday, you know, just like the wedding time, where wedding photographers get it. And this other feeling I've had that the wedding industry is really like circus people and we come into town, put up a tent and put on a show. And everybody I know, so many people in the industry who work so hard for this one couple, and it's such a beautiful act of, you know, artistry. And then Monday, it's gone. We're all home, sitting in a hammock or getting a foot massage, in my dreams, but I think it's a, I really do think it's a loving industry of great, creative people, and I'm glad it's thriving. And I, you know, when I do the workshops, I mostly just want to try to take some stress off of people and say, if you want to keep doing this for the long run, you gotta please yourself. Can't always be a people pleaser, and a lot of people in this industry are people pleasers, so it's a challenge.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. Look, I’ll add links to your Instagram, obviously, and also to your website where people can find your incredible book. And look, I just want to say it's been fascinating and fun talking to you. And I think you've done something that I guess not many guests do, that it's probably to do with the line of questioning and the kind of work you create, you've made me feel like I want to go out and shoot like right now I want to go and take photo, and I hope you've done the same for the listener. I'm sure you have. John, massive thank you for coming on and sharing everything you have.

John Dolan: My pleasure. Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is a superstar in the world of photography. He's built a career of advertising, editorial and fine art photography over the past 30 years. He's also the author of a reasonably recent book, The Perfect Imperfect, which has the foreword written by Martha Stewart, and one of his testimonials I read was by Jerry Seinfeld, who says John has photographed our family for 20 years. It is, to us, a priceless view of who we are and wouldn't exist without his gifted shutter lens and eye. He's photographed the weddings of celebrities, including Will Smith, Gwyneth Paltrow, Ben Stiller, and so many more. And he says that some photographers are directors, but I'm a collector. I've also read that he said his target at a wedding is to capture 15 amazing photographs. He still shoots 70% film and believes weddings are too important to play it safe. I'm talking about none other than John Dolan, and I am rapt to have him with us now. John, welcome.

John Dolan: Andrew, thanks for having me. Thanks for inviting me on.

Andrew Hellmich: It's a pleasure. When you hear names like that thrown out in an intro. Does that sit totally comfortable with you? Are they just normal people to you?

John Dolan: I think they're people who need real photographs. I think there's one thing I've learned about celebrities, is that they have paparazzis and they have iPhone pictures. So it is an ultimate privilege for me to photograph people who are so beautiful in the lens. You know, they're just so easy to photograph. But I also, I've always done it in a sort of anti-paparazzi way, where I'm a trusted friend, or I pretend to be a friend, but I don't interject myself, and that's why I use that term, the collector. I'm not trying to tell these people who are so accomplished in their own lives what to do on their wedding day. I'm just with them along for the ride and letting them be themselves without worrying of you know, the way a press person might take advantage of them.

Andrew Hellmich: Then aren't you approaching the wedding day like a paparazzi in some form, because you're not really directing them by the sound of, you're just capturing what you see what's in front of you.

John Dolan: But I'm not. I'm more inside rather than outside. I was photographing an event on Saturday, and there were some very well-known people there, and I had to use my body to gain their trust so that I could be five feet away from them, three feet away from them, and take a very simple picture, but without, they're not looking the camera. They're just in the middle of a conversation. But it's a different approach, where in 30 years, you're going to look back and say, Oh, that's what that person really looked like.

Andrew Hellmich: When I read that intro, I get the impression that you also photograph family portraits, or is it purely weddings and events?

John Dolan: No, I do private commissions for some people. I do events. I do birthday parties. I do... It's really, if somebody understands my approach, then it's a joy to come and be their chronicler of their life. That's really what it's about. It's that, you know, I think they're and I also want to make the point, I don't do that many celebrities. I do, you know one every other year, or something like that. But I get just the loveliest people who care about photography, and they're under such pressure to perform that I want to give them a day off and just say, you know, I'm not going to take advantage of this situation. I'm going to make something real so that your kids will have these pictures.

Andrew Hellmich: So with the celebrities that you have photographed and with your style of photography, do you ever have the situation where they say, John, we love you and your work. We want you to come to the wedding and photograph the way you see, but we're also going to have another shooter that shoots in a different style? Does that happen?

John Dolan: You know, it happens every once in a while, not that often. And I don't mind it. I play well with others. I prefer to be very low impact. And so it's, you know, I often shoot by myself. Sometimes I'll bring a second shooter, but I would say more with non-celebrity wedding clients than some of them hire another photographer to do the table settings or the decor or something like that. And I think that's a brilliant thing. It frees me up to do what I'm good at.

Andrew Hellmich: So if you're shooting solo, do you capture those, all those things that they've spent money and time and effort into designing for the day?

John Dolan: No. I always miss them. So the wedding planners who hire me know that I'll miss them, so they arrange somebody came in for an hour or two. And yeah, it's also a lot of the people I photograph hate being photographed, which is a really lovely client, because they've just never been photographed in the right way. So hopefully, when I deliver my pictures to someone who's shy or uncomfortable in front of the camera, they see themselves in a new way, and I become sort of a hero for making a picture of somebody who says, “Oh, I never take a good picture”. People blame themselves when they don't look good in a picture, and often it's the photographer's fault.

Andrew Hellmich: So how do you get to that position, though, because, I mean, I imagine that you don't get to spend a day getting to know your clients before you turn up to the event. You know, you may have been booked by the by the planner. You may be, I don't know, do you have an hour's conversation on the phone or zoom? What happens before one of these celebrity weddings?

John Dolan: It's a good question. The celebrities are different, but I think one of the skills I've learned over the years is how to get comfortable with people very quickly. It's part of our toolkit, and it's an amazing skill that where you skip the small talk and you get trusted some, it's all about trust, and somehow you build that bond really fast. And I've always enjoyed working with actors, you know, even in sort of documentary work, because they're spontaneous, they're improvisational, they know how to play that game. And I think that's something I've learned as I've matured. With a lot of my other wedding clients, I'll meet people and have a drink with them before, you know, six months before the wedding, so that when we see each other on the wedding day, we are sort of old friends, new old friends.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay. So, and that's like a, I guess, a traditional in air quotes photographer would deal with a regular client. We'd go and meet them, we have a meeting, get to know them, and then turn up on the wedding day.

John Dolan: Yeah, I think it's I certainly didn't do it for many years. I thought the engagement pictures were sort of cheesy, and then I started using it as a way to break bread with people, to share stories, to hear their love story, and then do a couple rolls of film, and also kind of introduce them to how I photograph and how my camera works and just get see who blinks a lot, to see who's awkward in front of the camera, all those sorts of things. So I think it's a very valuable thing to make first contact before the wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so this is interesting to me, because looking at your photography and listening to the way you shoot a wedding, it sounds like you're there, you're almost part of the family, capturing what you see. But if you meet a couple before the wedding, six months before, and you're going to do an engagement session, surely you have to do some direction then.

John Dolan: Yes, but it's an acknowledgement that engagement pictures are awkward and they have no internal drive to them. A wedding day has an internal engine. But I think even acknowledging it after a glass of wine, with some people saying, this is really strange, but let's walk over to the river in Manhattan and I also lay down these sort of laws. Number one, I have no expectation of you to perform, awkward is beautiful, all these sorts of things, just to let them relax. And, you know, they wear normal clothes, they have normal hair, they're just, it's more for me, this kind of sacred year, six months, nine months between being engaged and getting married. And I mean, ideally, I would love to take these pictures and put them in a box for 10 years, because I think you don't appreciate those pictures until you've got a couple kids running around the house. And so I'll send them a few pictures, but I don't do a big thing about it, and I don't charge for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. So this is really a get to know you meeting, and we'll get a few photos.

John Dolan: Exactly, it's a first date, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I like that. Yeah, you mentioned that you're not shooting that many celebrity weddings, and the bulk of your time is photographing regular people.

John Dolan: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Are they still booking you through a planner? In most cases?

John Dolan: I'm sure, if I analyzed it, it would be 90% through planners. And that's I would say, I have five or six planners in the states who I've known for years, and they will literally text me or call me and they say, I've got one for you. And that means they know my strengths. They know who to match make me with, a shy person, an understated connoisseur, somebody who studied art. There's kind of a type of person who appreciates what I do, and they don't want to have a big glam squad, and they don't want to be, you know, photographed for hours. They want to enjoy their wedding. And so it's a beautiful relationship I have with planners.

Andrew Hellmich: Is it the same planners that are also booking the celebrity weddings? Or there's a different clientele altogether?

John Dolan: It's a mix. It's, yeah, it's most, I would say it's sort of the same planners in many of the occasions, because once you've built that trust and that track record with people, then if they get hired by a celebrity, then they know they can rely on you to deliver in that same approach, that same style. So I think it's important for anybody who's building their career to shift from being a maximalist, they want to get as many jobs as possible, to really telling your planners or yourself who your people are. And I think that alignment is so amazing once you hit it, because we've all been at the wedding where we're not the right photographer where it's not a perfect fit. And I know we all have financial, you know you have to pay your mortgage, you have to pay your rent, so you take jobs, but take notes of when you feel yourself at your best self, and when you feel handcuffed by the expectations.

Andrew Hellmich: I like that, and I'm glad you pointed out the fact that people do have to pay their mortgages, because sometimes you don't have a choice. You have to say yes or you're looking for more ‘yeses’ to get more booking so I guess was there a point for you and your career where you said, “Okay, I can start to say no now”. And when was that?

John Dolan: Six months ago? I mean, there's a few things going on. One is rates have climbed over the last five years, which is amazing for the whole industry, and shocking. I mean, I didn't charge a lot for the first 10 years. I started having kids, and, you know, with each kid, I would raise my prices. But it really is a robust industry now, and having been in it for 30 years, it's gratifying to see so many people who were able to make a living at wedding photography, because that was not possible, it was harder in the 90s and early 2000s, so I'm happy that people are able to do this. But you know, life is always complicated, and I think you have to find that mix of art and commerce where you're making art, you're making your rent, but you're not burning out. I meet a lot of photographers who've done too many weddings in a row, and they can't remember their last client's name, and they, you know, they're just flooded. They have eight weddings to edit, and it's just not sustainable. And I've seen a lot of burnout. So I love to try to encourage people to find your people, set your price, find the number of weddings you want a year. For me, it's 10. Some people, it's 15, and just you know, you can have a really happy life in your community, wherever you are. In Australia, in Iowa, you know I've met all kinds of people in small cities just building a really beautiful career.

Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like you raised your prices because the household needed the extra income, anytime the new child was born, you raised your prices. So knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently, if anything, in regard to pricing?

John Dolan: I think I did what I had to do. And the beginning of each year, I'd sort of set my rate for that year and hold my breath to think if I could hit it. Because, you know, January, February, March, are always a little tricky in the States, and you think you're never going to work again, and then all of a sudden, you're booked with 15 weddings for the year. So uncertainty is the most reliable thing in being freelance. That's the only thing I've learned for 30 years. So I mean, I think I've been nimble and I think I've been scrappy, and when I shot a lot of magazine work, it was for $500 a day, but it was great exposure, you’d be in every magazine store in America. I don't know. I certainly could have run my business in a more professional way, but I never wanted to be professional. I wanted to be personal.

Andrew Hellmich: How could you have been more professional?

John Dolan: Whatever? I don't even know what professional people do with their businesses, but, you know, a lot of it's foreign to me, spreadsheets and CRMs and all those things. I really, I run a very simple, not a mom and pop business, but a very streamlined, my contracts very simple, because everything's based on trust. Even with some of my celebrities, I never did NDAs because I said to them, you can destroy me in a tweet. So you can trust me. I will not break our trust, because the downside risk is so big. A piece of paper is not going to, you know, scare me as much as your two thumbs.

Andrew Hellmich: That's a good point. So are you saying or am I hearing that some celebrities, or a celebrity asked you to sign an NDA and you refuse, or you said, I'm happy to do that, but listen, it's not going to change anything.

John Dolan: Yeah, I just sort of had the conversation like, let's just, let's make this a different kind of relationship based on two people trusting each other. And I don't even remember the exact details of it, but it really brought it out to me that getting lawyers involved is kind of a silly thing for my approach, and I've been lucky for 30 years, just because it's such a I guess my overall thing that I'm trying to describe is that my approach to wedding photography is that we are unlike any other vendor, because we see people at the most vulnerable. We see them getting dressed, we see them crying. We see, I hear from people when their grandfather dies, and I have this picture, so I've moved my business, I mean, I never even set it up as a very sort of corporate structure way, you know, I want people to call me. I don't have a form on my website saying, you know, answer these 10 questions, so I will maybe email you back in a few days. I just, I love to get on the phone with people and say, tell me about your wedding. And I'm saying to myself, does this sound like the sort of story I can tell? And then when it's a match, it's a really beautiful thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Am I right in assuming you have, you know, paper files and a filing cabinet to keep records these days, you're not even here.

John Dolan: I could show you, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So literally, no CRM, as little computer work as you have to.

John Dolan: For the business side, it's pretty it's really, it's embarrassingly simple. You know, I have a list of dates where I'm on hold or where I'm booked, and I'll highlight certain ones where I get booked, and I'll put the date that the deposit came in on one spreadsheet. So, you know, it's very just rudimentary, because I'm at a scale of 10 weddings, so it's, you know, simpler for me, if somebody's got 25 and they have associates shooting, that's a whole another business. But I've really refined it at this point in my life of just how simple can I make this whole endeavor? Somebody calls me, tell me the date. I don't need to know a shot list. Just tell me what time to be there for the first event, and I'll do all my own travel. I'll do all my own arrangements, and I will be there at that time.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. I mean, it doesn't sound like you're saying to the listener, hey, you can run your business more simply by doing what I do. It really depends on the scale of the business, even if they're charging less.

John Dolan:
Exactly, yeah. And yeah in some ways, I'm talking to that person who is insecure in business, or is not, didn't work in a corporate structure or something, somebody who's just more on the artist side, saying this can actually work if you structure your business as in a really interpersonal way that, you know, I charge a really healthy rate, and then I don't nickel and dime people, I don't send them receipts. The people I deal with don't want to be bothered by anything, so I do as little. I don't put anything on their plate. I try to take things off there, take stress away from them. That's for me, the value of my whole performance is when we interact, I'm going to be very loving and caring, and you're under a lot of stress, I'm going to not add anything to it.

Andrew Hellmich: I can hear, even with your voice, that you wouldn't be adding to the stressful day. I mean, you just come across as a very relaxed photographer, person. Is this how you are in everyday life?

John Dolan: You could ask my wife, but I mean, it's a circular kind of experience that I have at 400 weddings. I've absorbed a lot of stress, and I realized that I am good at what I do, because I get calm around nervous people, when people are freaking out. It's a really comfortable place for me, because it's like, I'm the youngest of six. I was brought up in a very, you know, lively household, so being quiet and hiding underneath the dining room table is my happy place. And that's pretty much every wedding reception, and it's mostly because people can't see the camera when they're laughing and telling stories that they're having fun at their wedding, they get very unaware of me, which is a beautiful thing, and also it's taught me that life is complicated, and you just hear story after story at people's weddings. About tragedies and triumphs and life's I don't you just hear biographies all the time, so it just makes me come home, hug my wife and say, you know, we're doing all right. And I learned some really human things this weekend. So it’s my church, basically.

Andrew Hellmich: You make it sound like a pretty special place to be at these weddings. I want to get onto your work in just a second. But again, you said to us that you only photograph some celebrity. That's not a big thing, a big part of what you do. But I'm still assuming that your regular clients are very well to do. If they're paying your rates, you're only doing 10 weddings a year. I mean, they're probably high flyers, as far as I'm concerned, is that right?

John Dolan: Some of them are. I always find a few people who I just align with, and I just, somehow I just have to shoot their wedding, whether it's a friend of my children's or school teacher or something. But I have a firm belief in a sort of Greek way of the wedding gods that the wedding gods deliver, and I used to get so upset if I didn't get a wedding that I really wanted, but then I've learned over the years, you know, sometimes you don't get a wedding that you really want, and then something else happens that's better. And so I definitely shoot for a lot of wealthy Americans who collect art and their connoisseurs, they wouldn't want cheesy wedding pictures in their house with all the beautiful things they have so, and they're lovely people because they appreciate me as an artisan, as a you know, they know that I'm going to give them something special, almost like a private chef or whatever other private thing they have, private banker, private health care. So it's a niche that it's taken me many years to find, but it's a really special place.

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds amazing. I mean, it sounds like you get to shoot with total freedom. You get to create the kind of work that you want to create at the weddings, and the client pays for it, which what a beautiful place to be.

John Dolan: But I would say, certainly, when I started out the first 50 weddings, that's what I did as well. There's a middle part that's a little hard where you’re, it's almost like when the plane takes off, it's smooth, and then it goes through rough air, and then when you get to 35,000 feet, it's smooth sailing. But I certainly met some photographers who are in this middle place of shooting for people with medium to good budgets, but they're very demanding, and it's, you know, you have to work your way through it all. But for me, I shoot the same way I've always shot.

Andrew Hellmich: So talking about the way you shoot and some of your work, I mean, I'm looking, say on your blog at the moment as we record, and the very first blog post, there is one on your book, The Imperfect. And for the listener, if they can't see this right now, hopefully I can put this in the show notes. But there's a bride and groom, they're holding hands. It's a blurry black and white shot, and I say blurry because there's movement. You can't recognize the couple. Are you familiar with this photo that I'm talking about, John?

John Dolan: That sounds like all my pictures.

Andrew Hellmich: So this is, this is my point, or leads to my question. So you have this kind of work feature on your website, and we always here show what you want to be shooting.

John Dolan: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that how you lived or have lived your life as a photographer, show what you want to shoot.

John Dolan: Yes. And that picture, I just looked at the picture you're talking about, that picture, to me, shows what that couple was feeling. So it's that intersection. How do you take a picture of what somebody else is feeling in their gut and in their heart? And if I had shot a sharp version of that, it would have flattened it, because it was, this was 11 o'clock at night. They're running towards they were sleeping in a teepee that night, or something, a yurt. And it summed up this, their free spirit and all these things. So I'm trying to make those, you know, a picture that represents so much more than the reality, that's really the the next level I'm trying to get to. I could take the picture of what it looked like, I want to take a picture of what it felt like. And that means I have to be as emotional as they are, or I have to be in rhythm with their emotion. So I'd love that you've saw that picture, because it’s not a blurry picture because I shook the camera on purpose. It's because I was running in the misty rain after them, and they looked so beautiful. So like, can I capture that?

Andrew Hellmich: I love it as a photographer, and I know that listener will fall in love with the photo as well. But do you ever have a client? What do you do if a client says, John, we love that photo. We love that moment. Do you have a sharp version?

John Dolan: Well, your initial question was good, do I show to prospective clients these pictures? And I've always have. I’ve always tested the limits of people when I meet them, so I'm not showing them, I’m really trying to just mess with them a little bit to gage their tolerance. And the people who say, “do you have a sharper version?”, somehow they realize I'm not the right photographer, if that's their main question. It's not an interesting conversation, if we're stuck on that. So, you know, I really try to reach people. And at this point my career, I have a book that says imperfect on it. So it should say, perfectionists need not apply.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

John Dolan: But it's, you know, I think I've made it clear to people what my philosophy is, and it's a very inside rather than, you know, rather than a clear-eyed view. It's an emotional approach to photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So what about the photographer who is dreaming of being where you are now being able to shoot with, let's say, abandon, and capture what they see, what they feel, and produce images like this. They show this kind of work on their website, and they don't get the bookings. What do they do? Like this is what they want to create, but they're just not getting booked for it.

John Dolan: This is definitely a challenge, but I have to believe that if you show pictures that you love, that are made from your heart and that moved yourself, moved your spouse or your partner, then you're going to find those clients, especially when it's 10 or 15. That's all part of the same system that you're not trying to please the world. You're trying to please yourself, and then please those, find those 15 cool people. And I'm convinced that in every small town in Australia and in Italy and France and certainly in America, there's that one coffee shop where all the cool kids hang out and you know, that's where you're going to find your people, or wherever it is, if it's a bar, if it's I think, you have to micro target who you want to appeal to. If you really want to be unleashed, you have to show those unleashed pictures, and then the people will find you. I'm convinced, otherwise, you just for me, it was always this concept, if I don't do it for myself, then I'm just going to making donuts. I just make donuts all day, and they're sugar sweet, and they taste really good, and then an hour later, you don't feel good. I want to make pictures. I want to make a nutritious set of photographs.

Andrew Hellmich: Did you feel like that from the start?

John Dolan: Yes. I would say my advertising work was not as authentic to me, but because when I started, there was no pressure. We were reinventing the genre. There were no, there were very few magazines. There was no way to look at other wedding photographers. So I was free of all expectation, and I would just be like, Oh my God, this picture from Saturday nights, just I can hear it, I can smell it. I can, you know, so I know how lucky I was that I didn't have all this visual asteroid field of you know, what the industry's doing. And I love that you were describing it as a photographer who wants to do this, and not somebody who wants to work in luxury or celebrities. I think that's a big trap a lot of people got into. And the photographers I'm meeting now just want to make honest pictures. And I think that's a much healthier thing. The whole luxury game is just going to drive people insane, because, you know..

Andrew Hellmich: Why, why would it?

John Dolan: Because you're trying to please the planner, the bride, the mother of the bride, the magazines, the blogs, and then you're putting your own self at the end of the list, and you'll say, Oh, I'll do that eventually. And I don't think it's possible. I think the number of those weddings is so small and the competition is so big. And I also kind of look at it like a casting director. Why would a casting director hire you if you're making pictures that look like everybody else, or if you're acting like everybody else. So I've always tried to make myself very distinctive. So planner says you're not going to get the sister's wedding, but I have the other sister who's just perfect for you. So it's that identifying your strengths and leaning into them.

Andrew Hellmich: You mentioned, no matter where you are in the world, or wherever the listener may be, there's going to be that cafe, that place, that suburb, even where the cool kids are hanging out and they're your target client. How would you get in front of them? Let's say there is a cafe. I mean, are you looking to have an exhibition in there? Are you putting an album on the coffee tables? What are you making a connection with the owners? What are you doing to get in front of these people?

John Dolan: I think that's for everybody to figure out. I think I got my core clients at the beginning by going to magazines trying to get magazine work. I would have my portfolio as a young photographer, and then I had a little box of my weddings, and so I'd show the portfolio, then I'd say, Well, I also have this personal work, and a number of art directors and photo editors saw that and said, You know, I don't have a magazine assignment for you, but I'm getting married next year, so I got in the back door at a lot of places by being out there. I would show my portfolio to anybody, and I would have these very distinctive raw wedding pictures that were not professional. They weren’t, they were just beautiful photographs taken at a wedding. So I think you basically have to walk around with a box of prints. And you know, you hear people talking, and I think it's flattering for people to be approached when they you know, if I was young photographer and I saw some friends at a party say they just got engaged, I would definitely go right up to them and say, “Do you have a photographer? Do you need a photographer?”.

Andrew Hellmich: Be bold.

John Dolan: I mean, I don't think it's creepy. I think it's if you're genuinely interested in people. I'm just fascinated by how people find each other in the world, especially in Manhattan, with, you know, 8 million people on this island, and how do two people connect? I just think it's cool. So who doesn't want to talk about their love story?

Andrew Hellmich: That's true. That's true. What about the photographer who's listening, who has a mortgage, has kids, they're trying to make a go at their business so they feel like they are, or they have to produce the images that the clients want, that they've got booked, but they've also got their own vision. Yeah. So do you think it's okay? How would you feel if they were to shoot some photos for themselves and the rest for the client and the show the ones that they shot for themselves, only on their website? Would that be a good way to get to where you are?

John Dolan: Well, I mean, now that you asked the question, I'm realizing it that I preach an extreme version of what I do. So I shoot. I've shot for 30 years, and I can cover all the safe stuff the I love doing family pictures. I love doing pictures of the mother with her friends who've been the mom squad. So I'm not there on my high horse, only doing whatever I want, but I'm doing even those family pictures and the mom squad pictures in a fun, interesting way. So I think I, you know, the number one rule is, never piss off the mother of the bride. It's just a really, really bad idea on all levels. And it's, you know, why would you, it's important day for all the characters in the play. But I think it's a, I don't have the easy answer, and I've been trying to figure it out for some people who are exactly in that position, I met a photographer in Portugal, and he's doing really interesting work, but he's not getting the work. And I don't have a easy fix for it, because part of our job is that we have to be marketing people. We have to be, you know, we have to be sales people. We have to be all these things. And there's no guarantee that talent and good work will equal success. It's a, we're on the lonely path of the freelancer, and it's a really trying time for a lot of people, so all I can do is preach that it's possible. It was certainly easier for me because rents were cheaper when I was starting out and I didn't have the pressure, but you know, you can get a real job and not do this game if it doesn't work. But I never had an option, because I have no other skills except photography.

Andrew Hellmich: So there was an interesting question in my group, and also in another photography group that I saw even yesterday, and it was about getting older as a photographer and having, I mean, exit strategy, I guess, is a term you could use, or, you know, they want to have a path to wind things down. Can I ask your age?

John Dolan: You know, I never tell my age. I like to keep that a little mysterious, just for fun.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, then, let me ask you this, how many years ahead of shooting weddings, do you feel you have?

John Dolan: My wife says I don't have an option to stop because she knows how much I get out of it, which is actually a really interesting insight that I mean just what I've told you already, how I get filled up by these human experiences, maybe I dropped down to eight weddings in a year or so, and then six or something, I don't know, but I know that five or 10 years ago, I started to see my wedding career as this bowl with a certain number of marbles in it or chips in it. And I don't know how many chips there are, but I changed my business model that every wedding I take I have to love, because I did a few weddings just for the money, and they destroyed me. They really crushed my soul. and the pictures. The pictures actually were beautiful and fake, and that's when I got really ill, just that that I could just make surfacy pictures. And so after that, I just try to make every couple who I meet really align with me, if I can, or try to find the that meeting point.

Andrew Hellmich: How did you get caught in that trap of producing the images for the client, not for yourself? How did that happen?

John Dolan: The recession. 2008, the financial crisis.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, right. Okay, so you had to shoot?

John Dolan: Three kids, and the bride really just, she just leveraged me. She just used every trick in the book, saying, oh, bring your kids and, you know, and she talked me down. She got me down to a cheap rate, so I was underpaid, and she faked so many things, she worked in reality TV, so she would say, she'd be laughing, and then if I did miss the shot, she'd have her friends laugh again. She's like “John missed that, everybody laugh again.” Oh, God, which was just against my, my whole religion right there. But the pictures, of course, looked good because it was great light and pretty people and all, and so, but it was a great lesson to me. I think I'm sure every photographer has done that wedding where you just don't love the people. And I thought after this, I'm not doing it for money anymore.

Andrew Hellmich: So you were still happy with the images that you created, you just didn't enjoy the experience.

John Dolan: I was begrudgingly happy delivering her these pictures because they were fake, but it was a beautiful place and so, yeah, I just think it's, you know, I think I've just met some photographers recently who are really able to align this, it's still hard to make the mortgage payments all work, but at least they're making pictures that they're proud of. And I think that's the core of keeping it sustainable. To answer your question, I'm not close to burning out, because I'm still making pictures, even last week or a couple weeks ago, that are fresh to me, and, you know, it's like a explorer who's finding new islands.

Andrew Hellmich: That is pretty cool. When I asked you about, you know, a potential exit strategy, I thought you might say things like, well, that's why I have the print shop. That's why I'm producing books. Maybe you have photos in stock, I'm not sure, stock libraries. Maybe you're looking at other ways to, to have a tail of an income carry on after you stop shooting weddings. Do you think like that?

John Dolan: That would be so smart? Yeah, I would say teaching is the thing. But again, when I teach, I teach just small workshops, 10 people. So it's not a great business model in the way that if I was to do a video series or something, but I just think my style is in person. And I mean, the closest thing I've ever found to comparing my business model is to small batch whiskey. You know, because I went to Scotland one time, and I found this place. And, you know, I just think I'm a limited number of bottles a year, expensive, and not for everybody. And, you know, so I think it's a fun game to play. And when I teach, I have people kind of try to just ponder that thing. What is your parallel? Are you Starbucks, where you're just doing for everybody whatever they want, they want a mocha, whatever, or you that little coffee shop that is hand pressed, or I don't drink coffee, so I don't know the terminology.

Andrew Hellmich: I think the distillery was a perfect metaphor.

John Dolan: Yeah, but it's a fun game to play because, you know, we're not how do you want to shape your business? How do you want to, or you want to grow?. I don't want to grow. I want to find my people and just blow their minds with their pictures.

Andrew Hellmich: So how do you do that today? I mean, you said you have planners. Do you rely solely on the planners to find your people, or are you doing other things?

John Dolan: Well, the real secret is that my eldest child is 30, so she has friends who are getting married, and she's been hand delivering me the sweetest clients who I've known since they were 16, who it's not even a question. We did a wedding in Paris, my daughter was a bridesmaid, my wife came, I was the photographer, and it was just, I'm delivering the pictures in a couple weeks. And it's, it was just that perfect alignment of I was already inside the circle of trust with her, and, you know, so my daughter's a good feeder.

Andrew Hellmich: That sounds pretty good. Just on that Paris wedding, so this is a close friend, like it's one of your daughter's best friends, you're going to Paris to capture this wedding. How do you stick to what you want to shoot when you know, I'm sure the, let's say not the mother, the bride wants the photo with the the Eiffel Tower in the background. We all want that. And you're thinking, Oh, that's too cliche. I don't want to do that. Do you still just do it but don't show it?.

John Dolan: Actually, this bride was so perfect because she was shy, she didn't want, she didn't want this big wedding. But, you know, the machine took over and it became a bigger wedding, but it really was, I mean, I have the pictures here I could show you, but we're on a podcast, so frustrating to see. But because my goal is this box of 15 pictures, I'm shooting, it’s usually two or three days. This was a two day event, and I'm shooting to make 15 pictures that will last a generation for her. So they're just 15 beautiful photographs of the experience, some of her with her husband, some of her with her bridesmaids, some of her in Paris. I mean, I just flowed with the wedding. So we didn't do any special things. We did take one detour from the church to the reception, and did literally five minutes in one of the Leicester Concord, I think. And, but I knew she only had a patience for five minutes, ten minutes. So you know, it's I know whenever I talk about this, it sounds like I’m, it could go very wrong if you do this super loosey-goosey, casual thing. So I don't want to give the impression that I just go and drink wine and dance, and I give the impression that it's very relaxed, but my wheels are turning so it's a, it really is a finely tuned machine. The only thing I would say is I never look at my phone during a wedding. I don't look at shot lists. I don't look at timelines. I am so in tuned with what the couple is going through. I'm completely focused on them. And since I never really leave the bride, I'm maybe I'll run over shoot the guys getting dressed for five minutes. But otherwise, I'm just hanging with the bride and shooting the wedding from her point of view, what she's going through, because it's a fascinating range of emotions that somebody goes through. And the wedding industry is always only shown this really narrow band of you know, it's your best day ever. And I've always thought this is your, the widest number of emotions you'll feel in one day. And so that's my guiding principle. Did you see? Have you seen these movies, the Inside Out movies? It's a Disney, it's inside the mind of a, I don't know, eight year old kid. And then there's Inside Out Two is inside the mind of maybe a 14 year old girl, and it's a fascinating study of what people are feeling all the different range. They have different characters for each emotion, anxiety and embarrassment, all these things. But it aligns with what I watch on people's faces on a wedding day that it's huge range, and I just keep thinking, why do wedding photographers only show the happy and the smiling when you know nervousness is kind of a beautiful thing.

Andrew Hellmich: I agree. I like that. You mentioned, and I did in the intro that you're looking to capture these 15 amazing images that will last a generation or more. What does a client actually get? What are the deliverables after the wedding day from you?

John Dolan: Whenever possible, I hand deliver this handmade box with 15 matted prints. So I choose them based on, I'll narrow down to 25 or so, then my wife and my studio manager will kind of debate, and maybe we'll print 18 and see what really looks good in the matte. And then that's the first thing I show people, and it's kind of an unveiling, and it's a really lovely time to see people after the wedding, after their honeymoon, six, eight weeks later, and just kind of talk about how wild the wedding was and I love hearing what people went through before I even showed them the pictures. You know, it's like, what was the high point? What were the anxieties? Or how did you feel at this point? Just to kind of let them talk about a little bit. And then I unveil the pictures, which are not in a timeline. They're not representative of everything. They're just a beautiful box of prints. And then hopefully they're moved by this box. And then I say, well, let's go. And I bring them over to my computer and show them a slideshow of 100 which is much more of the full experience. And then hopefully that moves them even more, and they're reliving the whole thing. And then I give them a proof book with all the pictures, maybe it's 800 pictures. So they get everything. So they get all the family pictures. They get all their friends dancing and stuff, but I've made the choice for them so they don't have to, because I used to watch people stress about choosing their pictures for years and years, and then I figured out, oh, I know what, I know the pictures. How do they know?

Andrew Hellmich: And so and you've done multiple steps for them. Haven't you? Because you've given your fifth or the 15 favorites, plus the 100, plus all. So they've got everything in there. How large are the prints in the print box, the custom or handmade print box?

John Dolan: I'm dying to show you one.

Andrew Hellmich: You can, you can.

John Dolan: They're eight by eight inches in an 11 by 14 frame in that or something like that. I'll just grab one.

Andrew Hellmich: If you're listening, so John just grabbed one off his desk, which is behind him, and I can see it's a beautiful white matte. It's a black and white print. Okay, this one is the bride and bridesmaids. I can just see their faces, and yeah, some are smiling, some aren't. It's one of your images. I can say beautiful, okay.

John Dolan: So you've got the little podcast interlude.

Andrew Hellmich: So I want to just understand the moment. So they sit down. You chatted about the wedding. You relived it. Do you just hand them the box, or do you hand them print by print and with an explanation?

John Dolan: No, it's really fun, because I almost just stretch it out a little bit. I'll stretch out the conversation. And the box is there, but I don't mention it. I don't touch it. It's just there. And then I see their eyes looking down like and I can feel that the conversation is kind of ready to go to the next thing. And I say, you know, shall we look at some pictures? But I hand it to them, I let them go through it one by one, and I just sit back and watch. And it's, what's fun is that no boxes the same. You know, this is their wedding. That doesn't look like last week's wedding. And I always think, if you know, if you could Photoshop last month's bride onto this month's bride. Then, then you're getting, you're making donuts. So I, you know, I'm trying to make a box of very distinctive pictures that like this one in particular, I really want it to sound like Paris, or to feel like Paris. There's some other pictures in the box that, like, I have one picture of these dancing girls, on the Friday night they had the can-can dancers, and it's just a blurry picture of a dancer coming right at the camera. And that's it was such a surprise for all the Americans at this wedding. And I think that picture brings you right there. So it's kind of a picture story, but it's a non linear picture story. It's just trying to make them tug at their hearts.

Andrew Hellmich: They must love you, John, they really must. I want to ask you a couple more questions, because I know we're running out of time, but you mentioned teaching. I'd love to hear your thoughts, because I imagine so many photographers or anyone that can get to one of your courses, and I didn't know you do this teaching.

John Dolan: They're kind of underground. They're kind of hidden.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so let's say I come to your class because I love your work and what you do. Is it upsetting? How do you feel if you see me trying to copy what you're doing?

John Dolan: I think the best thing that I've been able to do for photographers is find people who seem really handcuffed. So I have people bring pictures from when they first started, and the pictures that gave them great joy, and then I say, bring some pictures that maybe your clients love, but you don't love that are maybe that, we'll call them the donut pictures, and then we spread them out on a table, and I'd say, like, you know you're in these pictures, but you're not in these, you've lost something, or it's really this metaphor of having handcuffs on by the wedding industry. And then there's one photographer I've thought of a lot. And Daniel Kim, you may have heard about him, but he came to one of my workshops in 2020 and he just seemed really completely stuck by the industry, the expectations and the pressure and all this sort of stuff. But I said to him, you have the key to the handcuffs. In fact, the handcuffs are made of paper, and just rip it off. And he's had such an explosion creatively afterwards that, you know, just made me realize that a lot of stuff is self-imposed. A lot of people think that people will, they won't like me if I do, I won't get as many likes if I, you know, show this picture something. I think it takes a little bit of ego, or going into yourself and just saying, I know what my good pictures are, and I'm going to make those come hell or high water. So it takes that sort of courageous step to just say, you know, screw it, I'm going to do this. And some people, that means going and shooting a wedding for free where you have no obligations to the people. And maybe that's a reset. But I think there has to be some way to take all this pressure and obligations and fear of disappointment off your shoulders, and it's not an easy thing to do, but boy, when I see photographers throw that stuff off and break out of the handcuffs, it's thrilling.

Andrew Hellmich: That must be incredible. So do your, I mean, do you call them workshops? Is that what they are?

John Dolan: I call them retreats, but there's no, we do very little photography. It's mostly just talking like this. And it's, I try to turn people's heads inside out and upside down, and just say, what if, you know, everybody's doing it this way, what if you did it your own way? If everybody's shooting blurry, why don't you go super sharp? Or, you know, I'm just quite, it's a lot more questioning than giving answers, because I just think we're in charge of our own careers, and all I could do is just sort of say it's actually possible to do things this way. It's all I can offer.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. For the listener, if you could give them one place to go to see more of your work, learn more about you, see your photography, learn about your classes, where should we go? Where's the one place the listeners should go once they've heard you today?

John Dolan: Instagram is really the only social media I do, and I must say, I'm really just talking to photographers on Instagram. It’s, I can tell who my, you know the way you know your listeners. I have a really strong thing that I know that I'm talking to photographers, as opposed to clients. Clients see it, it's great. But I'm mostly in conversation with people, even to the extent of, I did a post one time on Monday saying, for wedding photographers, Monday is Saturday and Sunday is Sunday, you know, just like the wedding time, where wedding photographers get it. And this other feeling I've had that the wedding industry is really like circus people and we come into town, put up a tent and put on a show. And everybody I know, so many people in the industry who work so hard for this one couple, and it's such a beautiful act of, you know, artistry. And then Monday, it's gone. We're all home, sitting in a hammock or getting a foot massage, in my dreams, but I think it's a, I really do think it's a loving industry of great, creative people, and I'm glad it's thriving. And I, you know, when I do the workshops, I mostly just want to try to take some stress off of people and say, if you want to keep doing this for the long run, you gotta please yourself. Can't always be a people pleaser, and a lot of people in this industry are people pleasers, so it's a challenge.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. Look, I’ll add links to your Instagram, obviously, and also to your website where people can find your incredible book. And look, I just want to say it's been fascinating and fun talking to you. And I think you've done something that I guess not many guests do, that it's probably to do with the line of questioning and the kind of work you create, you've made me feel like I want to go out and shoot like right now I want to go and take photo, and I hope you've done the same for the listener. I'm sure you have. John, massive thank you for coming on and sharing everything you have.

John Dolan: My pleasure. Thanks, Andrew.