048: Melissa Ghionis – Why Customer Service is More Important Than Great Photography in Business

048: Melissa Ghionis – Why Customer Service is More Important Than Great Photography in Business

Andrew Hellmich: I don't think it's any surprise that most people around the world in the wedding photography industry would know Melissa as the wife of Jerry Ghionis, but there's so much more to Melissa that I think a lot of people may not know. For one she's fluent in four different languages and currently working on perfecting the fifth. She began her professional life in a law firm in Boston, but soon launched a photography studio specializing in weddings and portraits, where she shot professionally for 13 years and had her own portrait and wedding studio for over 10. Ever since meeting and marrying Gerry, she now looks after client management and runs the business of Gerry Ghionis Photography. Hi, Melissa, welcome to the podcast.

Melissa Ghionis: Thank you and thank you for having me.

Andrew Hellmich: My pleasure. Now where, whereabouts in the world are you at the moment?

Melissa Ghionis: I, we are in Melbourne at the moment. We are back home in Melbourne, which is really nice. We just got back from the US, where we were for about seven months, so we were there for quite a while, and then came back here, and we'll be here now for the next few months. So it's been nice to be back home for a bit.

Andrew Hellmich: So you pretty much travel the world and miss winter.

Melissa Ghionis: We conveniently timed and scheduled things that way, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Very good.

Melissa Ghionis: I'm, I'm originally from Boston, though, so I'm, this is very weird for me for the last couple years, not to have a winter. I'm used to it being snowy and cold right now.

Andrew Hellmich:
Loving it. Even though you're in Melbourne, it's probably still nice.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah, yeah, it's much nicer than it is in Boston at the moment, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Excellent. Now, for the listener that doesn't know a lot about you, and I guess for the Aussie listeners, I mean, a lot of us tend to see you as Jerry's wife, but you actually were an established photographer beforehand, and probably well-known in the States. Do you want to give us a little bit of an idea of your background and sort of you know what led you to where you are now?

Melissa Ghionis: Sure. It is funny, most people do know me as Jerry's wife. No, but I am a photographer. I've been shooting weddings and portraits for about 13 years now. I had my own studio in Boston for about 10 years, and focused primarily on weddings and portraits. And then the last couple of years before I moved, I opened a portrait studio as well, which was great. So did that for several years, we had a good size studio, shot about 50, well, 40, 40 so weddings a year, and then portraits on top of that. So it was, it was a great, great studio. And then I packed everything up and moved when I met an Australian boy that I fell in love with, and so I moved to Australia, started working with Jerry in his studio, and the rest, as we say, is history. That's where we are now.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Back in Boston, you said, so did you actually have two separate studios running at the same time?

Melissa Ghionis: It was, yes. So, well, I had the wedding studio for quite a while, in the last couple of years, it's funny, I love the business side of things, and after about seven years or so, though the, our studio was just humming along, we were doing great with clients. We had a steady flow of weddings every single year, and we sort of got into this happy rut, which was great and it was profitable, but I got a little bit bored, so I thought we'd open this second branch, second arm to our studio, same location, just totally different branding and marketing and all that kind of thing. And it was great. It was a lot of fun, and it did quite well. So it's just something, something nice to do. And then, then I sold all of that, and we moved here. I moved here to be with Jerry, and now we work together in our studio here in Melbourne.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so just a couple of things. And so with that original studio, or studios, was it confusing to clients when they turned up and the wedding business was called, or the wedding and portrait business was called one thing and then the portrait studio was called something else.

Melissa Ghionis: I had different marketing. So what happened was my wedding clients, as with most wedding clients, you naturally sort of tend to, they tend to convert to portrait clients when they start having babies and you start photographing their families and that kind of thing. And I really enjoyed that part of it. So the way we sort of announced it to our clients was we held a contest to come up with a name for the studio, and got a lot of great suggestions, and we did a whole couple of fun things via our blog. So it wasn't, it ended up being, they were, they were connected. I mean, people knew, in branding and in marketing, people knew that it was the same studio, just a different branch, a different arm of it. And we had our clients very much involved, our existing clients very much involved in that. And so that that helped as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so was it? Was it a different experience then to go to the portrait studio from the wedding studio? Was there, you know? Was it a different entrance to the studio, different decor? Do they have different customer service?

Melissa Ghionis: It was same, same entrance, but we had different sections, so I had a big warehouse space, and so we divided it all up. So the shooting space was in a separate area to the meeting space, and the sales area was in a separate area. So, you know, somebody who was coming in to meet with us for their wedding would probably never see the portrait space and that kind of thing. So it was, it was all separate. We had a really nice advantage in that we had a nice warehouse space that we could kind of divide up and make into different areas, if you will.

Andrew Hellmich: Were you still shooting in the business at that stage, or were you just focused on business?

Melissa Ghionis: No, definitely still shooting as well. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and you said something really interesting just a little minute ago. You said, when I fell in love with the Aussie boy, I sold, I sold my business.

Melissa Ghionis: Yes, well, part of that was before I met Jerry, that I actually sold it before I got together with Jerry. I, my partner was my ex-husband, and so we ran the studio together, and what I actually did was, when we ended up splitting very amicably, I sold my part of the studio over to him, and he kept that going for a little while. He didn't keep the portrait side going, but he kept the wedding side going so, but I was able to sell that off to him so that the studio would keep working, and I didn't have to be there.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure. So do you think in today's market you could still have a photography studio that was, is something that you could sell as a business?

Melissa Ghionis: I think absolutely, but I think it has, you have to make really good business decisions. I think it's hard to sell a studio when it's under someone's individual name. For example, if someone is, you know, Mary Smith Photography, it might be really hard to sell that studio because the next person that comes along, it's not really going to mean anything to them. So naming your studio, I think can have a big effect on whether or not you're able to sell it. But absolutely, I think there's definitely great, great, there is definitely potential and possibility to sell your studio once you get to that point. There's actually many organizations such as PPA in the US and stuff, where they have resources available for photographers who are looking to retire, and they'll have their client base in their studios, and it's just a turnkey operation where you can just step right in and just keep running it for them. Definitely a market for that.

Andrew Hellmich: I guess, if anyone will be thinking about going down that avenue, one of the most, I guess, valuable assets they could have or build is a database.

Melissa Ghionis: That would be the biggest asset. And I think that goes in any business, especially in this modern age where email blasts and social media is such a big part of marketing. Your, the size of your database definitely determines the power you have, without a doubt, so things like when you have an online gallery requiring visitors and clients to sign in and leave their email address, and in that way, opting into your database is huge. It's a great way to market to people who already have experience with your work and already love your work and have loved working with you. It's a great way to get more business from them in the future, they're already a qualified audience, and the bigger your database, the more power you have to work with other vendors. And like you said, at some point, if you want to sell that's a big, big selling point.

Andrew Hellmich: I want to dive more into that side of things in just a minute. But let's fast forward to you moving to Australia with Jerry. What was your role in the beginning? And did it? Did it take a little while to find where you fit in the business?

Melissa Ghionis: It definitely. It's funny, because I was used to being one of the main shooters at my own studio, right? I'm used to being in charge, I'm used to asking questions. I'm used to posing and directing people when we're at a wedding. And then I came to work with Jerry, and I'm not going to, I'm not going to be the main shooter when I'm photographing alongside Jerry. So it was funny, that was probably, to be honest, the one of the hardest things I had to do was to go shoot a wedding and be a second shooter. I just wasn't used to that. I wasn't used to being on the sidelines. I wasn't used to not being in charge. And it was tough for the first few weddings when we did that, it was it was tough for both of us, because I just, I kept wanting to do that. It was just habit. After all those years, you're just used to it, but now we fall into a really comfortable place, and my role in the business is very much on the customer side. I deal with all of the clients leading up to the wedding. Their first contact is through me. I speak to them via email, via telephone. Jerry meets with them only when they come into the studio, when we meet with them together, and then again, when they come on the wedding day. Of course, we spend time with them both together, but I focus very much on the clients and the and the business side of things. And we have our very specific roles. So what Jerry does in the business, he does and I never question. I never step over on his side and vice versa. He never steps in and tries to contact clients or do any of the things that I normally do on a day to day basis. We have our very specific roles, and I think that's one of the best things that we ever decided, because it's let us work together very well.

Andrew Hellmich: You guys come across as a team today, that's for sure. So it's obviously working. Now, I know that the listeners may not be in a position that you guys, I'm guessing they're probably not going to be in the same position as you guys, and often the listener will be doing everything, so doing both roles in their business. So put yourself in their place. Let's, let's say, just for, as a hypothetical, if you were to go and set up your own business tomorrow, could you still do the same things that you do for your clients now, tomorrow?

Melissa Ghionis: Yes, but here's what I would say. I think, especially if you're trying to do it all by yourself, one of your biggest and best assets and best friends will be to outsource as much as you can. What you don't have to do, you shouldn't have to do. So probably if I was doing it all on my own again, starting tomorrow, one of the things I would give up immediately, which I do now, is all the accounting and bookkeeping. I enjoy doing that, but it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of effort, so it wouldn't be smart of me to have to do that when I could easily hire and outsource that out. Same thing with editing. There's some great companies out there that are editing photographers work. And you know, you can send out your images and they'll work them just for proof. So they'll do a just a light color correcting, and everything, send it back to you. When you're doing your album design, you can outsource album designing. You can outsource retouching. So like in-depth retouching, all the hours that you spend on your computer, when you're not spending it on your business, you could give that away, and it may sound like that's expensive, but imagine all the hours that you're spending in front of your computer, editing and retouching and album designing and doing all of this, the amount of hours. Imagine if you could let that go and use those hours to market your business, to get more clients in the door, wouldn't you make more money doing that? So you sometimes people say, "I couldn't afford to outsource it", but if you use that time to get more clients in, you'd make even more money than you are now. So, sometimes you can't afford not to in that way. And you know, a lot of people have a hard time giving that up as far as or no one could edit as well as I could, which is probably very true. But will a client know the difference? So one thing Jerry's taught me quite, quite well is that, you know, we're often our own worst enemies, because we're so, we're such control freaks. But the truth is, is a client will never know. If you know, when they look at two images, they look at yours, and they'll say, "Oh, you know, the tones on this one are just slightly off and all this", client will never see that. So sometimes we just have to learn to let go a little bit in order so that we can, we can work on our businesses and be a little bit more profitable that way.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you and Jerry, do you work on your own images?

Melissa Ghionis: We do not. We do outsource. Yeah. So even though there are two of us, when we first got together several years ago, we promised ourselves that we would actually have a real life because both of us in our previous relationships and previous lives, we worked so hard and we're workaholics, and we spent hours and hours not with our partners and not with our families, to the detriment of those relationships. And so I guess it was a very hard lesson learned. And so now six o'clock comes, and no matter where we are, we shut things down, shut the laptop down, we keep each other honest about it, and part of that means that we have to let that go. So we do outsource all of our editing. And Jerry does do the album design. He loves doing that, so he does still do that, but all the image editing, we just let that go.

Andrew Hellmich: That's great. I mean, it's great to hear that you're actually practicing what you're preaching, which is fantastic.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Now, when you went through all the different things you could outsource, but they sounded I mean, you mentioned a lot of different things, and one thing you didn't talk about was, or talk about outsourcing was customer service and those relationships. So obviously that's the important part of the business, that and the shooting.

Melissa Ghionis: Yes, I agree, that. So for me, customer service is even more important than shooting. So you can be..

Andrew Hellmich: Does Jerry within earshot?

Melissa Ghionis: He's in another room, I've got him locked-out, so hopefully he won't hear it. So I think that you can be an average photographer and have amazing customer service and be just as profitable or more profitable than someone who's a fabulous shooter but has terrible customer service. So I think that's where, I think that's where the difference is. So in that way, I do think that customer service and the relationships that you have are so important for your business, just financially wise, there's nothing that replaces that type of service that keep, will keep your clients coming back over and over and over again. It takes so much more money and costs, takes so much more time to get new clients and sell yourself to people who have never worked with you than it is to just get existing clients to work with you again, because they've already fall in love with you. They've already loved your images once. So it's very easy for them to come back to you again. They've experienced you. You're familiar to them, but to get someone who's fresh and who has never worked with you, now you have to sell yourself harder. So keeping those existing clients and working on your customer service is key to any business. It really is.

Andrew Hellmich: So what about wedding clients there? Because they're going to come to you as a, well, not often, as a previous client. Or are you suggesting we take a different approach when trying to get wedding work?

Melissa Ghionis: There's two ways to look at that. If you're a wedding photographer and you also do portraits, then that can be key for you, and most wedding photographers do a little bit of both. If you're happy to do family portraits and kids and that kind of thing. With your existing wedding clients, you've got it built in, because you don't even have to wait for them to have children. But you can schedule family portraits, extended family portraits, with them already, straight away, so they, you've shown your experience. You've had your relationships with them. You've got this, this resource now of client, brand new clients that you can get just for portraits. But then also, the biggest thing with wedding clients is just getting referrals, so you can get so much more work. A lot of times, when a couple is getting married, especially a younger couple, you'll find all their friends in that age group. They're all getting married at around the same time. They all seem to have babies at the same time. Everything kind of happens together. It's like a peer pressure kind of thing sometimes. And so, you know, getting referrals from clients that you've already worked with is key, but it's not just as simple as let me do a really good job for them and then they're going to, they're just going to tell me about all their friends. It's actually not given. They're, they're not going to automatically run and tell all their friends to use you. It's could be just as simple as asking them. So when they come pick up, pick up their album at the end of you know, when you finished everything, and they come pick it up something as simple as, "Hey, if you really loved working with us as much as we loved working with you. We would love it if you would tell your friends about us. We'd love to work with them as well", or doing little things for them. So when they play some, a family order, say, for example, or a print order, if they have been really good and they've placed a lot of, a lot of orders, or they have a lot of extra sides in their album, do something for them, maybe gift up several other of their favorite prints and put them together and package it up and put a little note on it and say, "This is just to thank you for being such a great client." It's actually the little extras that you do for clients that makes them want to come back to you. Let's say you have two photographers that they've gone to, both did a good quality job with shooting and delivering the images, and they had expected customer service, so they delivered everything on time, and it was in good quality. But then you had one photographer who did a couple of little extra things, and little extra things might be something like that, like giving them a couple of extra prints, or giving them a little mini album to go along with their main album, just to say, 'Thank you for being such a wonderful client.' You know, little things like that make such a big difference, and are things that clients will remember. And it could be, it will be just the one thing that makes them remember you over another photographer that they may have used.

Andrew Hellmich: So doing those little things that to you is still that's part of the customer service or the customer experience.

Melissa Ghionis: Absolutely. I think it's such a big part, and you don't have to do it often. You don't have to do it every single time they order something. But those are the things that will make them remember you the most. Those are the things that will make them stick out in their memory.

Andrew Hellmich: I know that when we get frames delivered from one of our framing suppliers, when we open the box, there's always a few little like mint keys or chocolates or something extra in there. And we love those people.

Melissa Ghionis: And you know what? And you're sitting here telling me about it.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Melissa Ghionis: You know what I mean? It makes a difference. It makes a huge difference.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure. Okay, so let's, let's take it back to your business and what you offer to your clients, and maybe we can learn some of some of the things that you're doing. So let's say the phone rings for the very first time, or an emailing, let's say the phone rings. What do you normally get? Do you normally get a phone call, or do you get an email with you guys?

Melissa Ghionis: It depends. When we're here, as in when we're here in Melbourne. We do often get a phone call, but because we're overseas so often, well, most of our inquiries these days are coming in via email or via our website, so we'll get it like through the Contact Form kind of thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so do you take a different approach for that first contact, whether it came by phone or email?

Melissa Ghionis: So if I had my way, I would always call them on the phone, a 100%. I would never email them back, because there's, you, most couples, assuming we're talking about wedding photography, most couples will probably reach out to, I don't know, five, six different photographers that they like. Look at all their websites, and then send an inquiry to these five or six different photographers and just wait to hear back. And the majority of those photographers will email back and send a price list, and that'll be the end of it. But the person that will stick-out out of that whole group will be the person who actually rings them and has a conversation with them and offers them a congratulations that they're getting married, and asks to hear about the details, and where are you getting married, and what venue is it going to be? "Oh, I remember that venue I photographed there just a couple weeks ago. You know that veranda on the back? It's just so beautiful, you can take some beautiful photo out there", and all of a sudden you're creating this connection with this photographer that you haven't created already with the four other photographers that you've reached out to. So my suggestion is, on your contact form, on your website, make the phone number be a required field, and when they leave that phone number, when it's at all possible, ring them and just get that personal relationship started right from the very beginning.

Andrew Hellmich: For someone like you guys that have been in business for a long time, I'm thinking you might take a different approach to a lot of photographers who tend to make phone calls and reply to emails at any time of the day or night. So if an inquiry comes out through at nine o'clock, they'll be quickly emailing back, or even 11 o'clock at night, emailing back. So what do you do when you get that contact form come through at, you know, midnight?

Melissa Ghionis: I'm a huge believer in replying very quickly, especially with emails, everything has to be replied to within 24 hours. Phone calls have to be required, reply to within that business day. But one thing that has changed, as I've mentioned before, this promise that Jerry and I made to each other, that we're gonna actually have a personal life. Because what's the point of doing all this hard work and starting this business when you don't get to enjoy it? And I know that that's easier said than done, especially when we're starting a business, but the truth of the matter is, is 4, 5, 6 years can slip by, and when you look back, you realize you've got nothing. Jerry says something very poignant all the time, and he says, "We spend all this time capturing and creating these moments for other families, to the detriment of our own families and to the detriment of our own memories." It's really important that whether we're just starting a business, or whether you've been in business for a long time, that you make sure that you have that time for yourself and for your family, because you'll never get it back. So we're a huge believer in that. Yes, there are times such as now during the holiday season, when the orders are coming in fast and furious and you have all these deadlines. And yes, there will be days that you have to work later, but if you make a promise to go into work at eight o'clock in the morning or 8:30 whether, even if work is just working from your, your living room or your dining room, doesn't matter. Go in it at a certain time. And then when 5:30, 6 o'clock comes, you're done. You're done for the day. If someone sends you an email at midnight, an inquiry, they don't expect to hear back from you at midnight, and as a matter of fact, it makes it makes them very easy, easy to disrespect your time going forward. So yes, if that inquiry comes in at midnight, I won't answer before 9am the following morning.

Andrew Hellmich: So what would you say to the photographer that's listening and they're hearing you give this advice and they're thinking, “Well, hang on, if every other photographer listening doesn't reply till the next morning and I reply at midnight, aren't I going to look like the great photographer, the great business person?"

Melissa Ghionis: What I would say to you is, I'm telling you, from my own personal experience, it's not worth it. I'm saying yes, what if you do book that one client? What if it happens? I'm telling you your own personal life will suffer because of it, and it's not worth it. From a purely business perspective, I would still say to wait until nine o'clock the next morning and ring them. You can't ring them at midnight anyways, and you can make a much stronger impact if you actually speak to them on the phone. So wait until the business hours the next day, speak to them on the phone, and you'll still make a bigger impact. No one's gonna book a photographer at midnight, so you'll be, you'll be good to go the next morning anyways, and then you'll have that time sleeping next to your wife or your husband where you should be, anyways.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, nice. Okay, so let's just, while we're on the topic of, you know, that initial contact, I'm finding, and I think a lot of photographers are that, a lot of this initial contact is happening through a Facebook page. Do you get inquiries through your Facebook page?

Melissa Ghionis: We actually don't, oddly enough, but we don't really, we haven't worked hard to promote it that way. Our brand, with Jerry here is a little bit, is a little bit different in that we find that our typical client wants to actually meet with us and speak with us, because they're probably spending a little bit more. So we don't get too many requests via Facebook. However, when I do, when I do get a client or a potential client that will say, "Oh, you know, I'd love to have some packages sent to me, or love to know if you're available on this date", I'll always reply back and say, "I'd love to chat with you more about your wedding, congratulations. Is there a phone number where I can reach you?" So always go back to that phone number thing. Always ask them for a number. Always ask to speak to them, because that will always make the biggest impression on them.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I love that. Okay, that's great. So the aim, no matter where they make contact, is to get them on the phone at some stage, as quick as possible during business hours.

Melissa Ghionis: That's right, yeah, during business hours, that's right.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So let's start. Let's move to the next step. So I guess that the main goal, and for all of us, it's going to be the same when, when we get them on the phone, the plan of that phone call is to get them to come in and meet us.

Melissa Ghionis: Exactly, right. So once you, the whole idea is to speak to them on the phone instead of an email. So that you can, they can hear the warmth in your voice. They can, they can start to hear that you're a great guy or fun girl and want to meet with you more. But then you're right. The next step is always to get them to come in person, because that's when you're going to be able to sell yourself and sell your personality and sell your work in the best way. So the phone call should never be about booking the person. Should always be about getting them to feel all warm and fuzzy and happy and dying to come in and meet with you.

Andrew Hellmich: Let's say we've done that. And what about the subject of price? I mean, that must come up with you guys a lot.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah, it had.

Andrew Hellmich: You get them on the phone and, "Melissa, we love Jerry's work. We want you guys to share our wedding. How much is it going to cost us?"

Melissa Ghionis: It's probably the number one question that always comes up with anybody. It doesn't matter where you are at the market or where in the world you are, that always comes up. So it depends. I mean, if you're at a slightly higher price point where you think that a lot of couples may find you outside of their budget, it might be a good idea to just at least give them a starting price. So maybe your collections begin at and then say what that price is. Because, let's say, your prices start at $5,000 but they don't have, they have a budget that cannot, under any circumstances, go higher than 1500. Well, it's a waste of both of your times to have them come in only to find that out. So it's not a bad thing to let them know where you start, but let them know, but then you can say something like, you know, "But we'd love to meet with you to find out exactly what your needs are, and then, and then go from there." And then, once they make the appointment, you may find it helpful to just send them all your collections that way so that they can review it before they come in.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, cool. Okay, I like that. So let's stay with the customer service, sort of focus and angle. They're coming in. You've made this appointment. They're coming in to see you. What do you do next? What do you guys do that separates yourself from others? Or what's the customer service focus that you put out there?

Melissa Ghionis: The biggest thing when they come in is all about connecting with them. And I'm a big proponent of connecting with people non-verbally, as well as with your voice and with your images. There's a way, the key is to make them feel as comfortable as possible when they're around you. And there's so many things that you can do, as far as with your body language and how to make them feel comfortable around you that will set yourself apart from all the other appointments that they're gonna have with other photographers. As simple as this sounds, as soon as they walk in the door, something as simple as smiling at them, just smiling with this big, huge smile. The problem is, is that when we're nervous and we're stressed a little bit and we're meeting someone for the first time, just human nature means that we just want to close down, and we want to shut ourselves off, and usually a smile is the first thing that runs away from our face. So we have to physically tell ourselves, we have to remind ourselves to just smile at the person. A smile tells a stranger that you're not dangerous. It's a little trigger that just flips in their head. Says you're not a dangerous person, you're friendly, you're a nice person. So you just open up with a smile, and depending on who they are, either give them a handshake or a nice, warm hug. You can usually tell by the way they're dressed. If they're a really professional couple, you probably wouldn't want to just run up and hug them, give them a nice handshake kind of thing. So just rate them a little bit and then just greet them warmly. Think about when you see a friend for the first time. Let's say you're shopping in a store and you see a friend for the first time. You turn, you turn around the corner and you see them. What do you do? What's your reaction, you usually just you smile, and you say "Hey!", and you get really excited. Your voice changes when we're excited to see somebody that we know. Our volume goes up a little bit higher, and our actually, our tone, our pitch goes up higher too, like, "Hey, it's so good to see you." You know, that kind of thing. So we have to remember that when we see a stranger. We should mimic that. So we should do the same exact thing when we're meeting a client for the first time, make them feel like they're a friend already. And that little thing will actually make them feel more comfortable before we even sit down. Then when you're sitting down with them, the whole idea is to get them to feel as comfortable. So if you have a friend who comes over, what's one of the first things you do when you sit down together?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Can I get you guys a drink?

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah. So you might offer them something to drink, give them maybe have some nibblies available, or something. You want them to feel comfortable. Now, here's the, here's the thing, you can ask them if they want something to drink, but because they are still a stranger to you and they're feeling a little uncomfortable, you got to remember they're coming onto your turf. They're coming into your territory. So the first natural reaction is, if someone says, "Hey, would you like something to drink?" Most strangers will say, "No, no, that's okay. I'm all right", and that'll be it. But what we do is, when a client comes into our studio, I'll invite them in, I'll greet them, and I'll say, "Hey, what drink would you like? We've got red wine, white wine, coffee, tea. What drink would you like?" So the way I ask it, they're always going to get a drink, because I'm assuming you're already going to have a drink. I just want to know which one. Do you do this?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I love that. I do, I do. And we look in our studio, it's very, very similar, because Tenille in our in our studio, she says, "How come you can always sit down and have a beer with these guys, and I can't get them to have a drink?" And we looked at it, when I welcome the couple in, I'm saying to them, "I'm just about to grab a drink. What can I get you guys? This, and this?

Melissa Ghionis: Yes, that's perfect. That's right. And then that way, there's, they're not uncomfortable. They don't feel like they're putting you out, you know, before they've even arrived. So, and we want them to have something to drink. We want them to feel comfortable and relaxed. We want them to feel like they're at a friend's home while we chat a bit more. So it's a huge thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Before you go on, Melissa, you got to tell me what, what do you offer? As far as drinks and nibblies in your studio?

Melissa Ghionis: We offer coffee and teas. So we have a coffee machine and teas as well. We have all these different flavors of teas, and then we have red and white wine, and then we also have a full liquor cell. Jerry and I don't even drink much liquor, so it's all for the clients.

Andrew Hellmich: Do any clients say yes to the liquor?

Melissa Ghionis: They, not usually in the first meeting, but we have clients that come back for their album design plan.

Andrew Hellmich: Once they hear the price.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah, yeah. And they usually need one. No. They're in the, when they come back for like, album designing and stuff. Usually, those meetings can last a couple hours, and very often a client will indulge them, for sure. Although we do get a lot of first time clients inquiries coming in, and that wine is a very common thing, especially if they're meeting in the late afternoon or that kind of thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Do many clients say yes to water?

Melissa Ghionis: All the time. Well, actually, when I'll offer them what they have and then bring them water as well anyways, so.

Andrew Hellmich: How do you present the water?

Melissa Ghionis: So, we have a cool little tray, actually, that has this bar that comes up because I, I'm usually the one that's bringing it, and I can't bring everything all at once. So we have this tray that I can hold with one hand. I don't have to hold it from underneath. It just has a sort of a little arm that I can hold on to. And so everything goes on there. The water comes in individual glasses. But we also have a pitcher, and I leave the pitcher there as well, so we can always refill as the evening goes on.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, cool. I feel silly after I thought there's gonna be something. I bet you guys are doing something different.

Melissa Ghionis: No, it's really, honestly the only thing that we do that's different, because we book, we have a very high booking rate, so clients who come in almost always end up booking us. And the reason, big reason for that is truly because of everything that we do when they come in. And it's all of that greeting them, making them feel comfortable, even when they're sitting down. One big thing that we do all the time is we mirror their body language, and that's a, it's actually a big thing that has a huge effect on making them comfortable and relaxed. So if someone is sitting down across from you, and they've got their legs crossed, I'll slowly end up crossing my leg so it looks like I'm looking into a mirror, and I'll copy their body language. And the trigger behind that is that, in your mind, when you are meeting someone for the first time and you recognize some of your own characteristics in that person, you feel more comfortable with them. We always feel a little bit more uncomfortable with someone who's so different from us because they're different, and so we're not used to, we're not really sure how they're going to react. We're not, we're not comfortable yet, but if we recognize..

Andrew Hellmich: Hang on, hang on..

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: I'm just pitching in my head here, like the groom sitting with these legs apart, leaning forward with his hands sort of together. You're not doing that, are you?

Melissa Ghionis: Well, here's the thing, you laugh about that though, sometimes you'll have this works both ways, because there'll be times when you might have the bride be really interested and really excited about meeting with you, and then you might have the groom who just really is bored and isn't happy about being there in the first place. So most people, most photographers, will just focus on the bride. They're like, "The groom's the lost cause. I'm not going to worry about him. I'm just gonna focus on the bride." But the truth is, you've already got the bride. You've already clearly made a connection with her. She's excited, she's happy to be there. You've actually got to work on the groom. So if you actually do mimic his body language, so if he's leaning back with his arms crossed and everything, if you do the same thing, you can't be obvious about it. But if you just flick, slightly mimic his body language, if you do that for a few minutes, and then you lean forward as you're speaking with him, you'll be amazed to see him lean forward with you, because if you mimic his body language for a while, and then as you start speaking with him, if when you change without him realizing it, he'll start to mimic your body language, and he'll become more and more engaged, and so that could be the one thing of why this couple ends up booking you. Because out of the four photographers that they met with, this, you were the only one that the groom felt comfortable with. The bride might be just a happy go lucky girl. She may like everyone that she meets, but for the groom, if the groom is not really into it, if you win him over, then that's what you've got. Then you've got your client, your clients good to go. They'll be yours. So little things like that is, is really important in helping them feel more comfortable and more relaxed and that kind of thing. So you don't do it too obviously, it's just another little, a little way to make them feel more at ease with you.

Andrew Hellmich: So what about when the, when the couple of, say looking through your albums, and they're just, they're just whispering little things, but you're still in the room. So do you guys, would you make a concerted effort to engage them in more conversation, or do you leave them to it for 10 minutes? What's your approach there?

Melissa Ghionis: Typically when they first come in, we actually don't have any albums out, so we start just by sitting down together, and there's nothing there. So we'll have prints on the walls and frames and that kind of thing, but no albums yet to look through. So we just spend a little bit of time getting to know them, just as you would if you were meeting somebody for the first time. We asked about them. You know, we talked earlier about asking clients if they want something to drink, and it's all in how you ask the question, do you say, "Would you like a drink? Or would you say, what drink would you like?" Another key is, when we're just sitting there, before we even look at any weddings, is, you know, one common question that a lot of photographers will ask is, "So, how did you guys meet?" Right? Isn't that like a question that everyone will ask?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Melissa Ghionis: Well, one thing that we ask our couples, which is a little different, because you got to remember, we all agree this is what every photographer asks. So now they've probably answered that question five times already, and then you're, doing it again. So what we do to make it a little bit different is, oftentimes Jerry will look at the couple, or he'll look at the bride, and he'll say, "Tell me, Mary, tell me the moment when you looked at John and you knew that you wanted to spend the rest of your life with him." Totally different question, right? And it's a completely different response. And now it's, a lot of times our couples haven't even thought about the answer to that. They've never had it. No one's ever asked him that. They've never, "Well, I don't know. I don't know that moment", and they have to think about it. And sometimes you'll see the groom kind of looking over and be like, "Yeah, I'd like to actually know the answer to this as well." It's really interesting. And we've had couples get emotional while they're telling us this story. Little things like that, asking them questions about themselves that are more than just a yes or no question, getting them to open up a bit really makes a difference in making that connection with them. Then after we've done that for a while and we've gotten to know them, now we're friendly with them, then we'll bring out an album. And what we do is we have several different sample albums. So we have about six or seven different albums in our studio, but we don't show them all, so a lot of it will depend on who the couple is. And by this point now, we've been sitting down with them for about 20 minutes or so. So we've seen how they're dressed. We've asked them about their wedding. We know whether they're going to get married on a beach or if they're going to get married in a big, massive hotel in the downtown area. So you kind of get an idea of the style of this couple, if that makes any sense?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, definitely.

Melissa Ghionis: Depending on who they are will determine which album we show them. So if a couple is getting married on the beach, we're not going to show them the wedding that was, that took place at Crown, you know, and was all downtown with all the glitz and the glamor, and it was a New Year's Eve wedding or that kind of thing, that bride's not going to be able to relate to this wedding. So you want your couples to picture themselves in your images. So we might show her a beach wedding that we did, or something that was a little bit more casual, where maybe with a smaller bridal party, something that they'll be able to relate to, and vice versa. So when, once we get an idea for the style of this couple that will determine which albums we show them, so we don't show them all of them. Then when we pull out the album, we actually don't let the couple go through them. We don't let them just sit there and flip through the pages, because what's happening is it does get kind of awkward, like you said, you know, they're kind of going through the pages, and they're looking at each other and pointing to a photo and whispering to each other a bit, and you're just sitting across from them, almost as if you're on trial, you know. "I hope they like that one, or I hope they turn the next page quickly. You know, that was my favorite photo." You know, that kind of thing. So what we do instead is we bring the album out and we say, "Hey, would it be, I just want to show you a couple of recent weddings. Would it be okay if I just turn the pages and explain the images as we go along?" And when you say that, like, of course, they're always going to say, "Yes, sure, that's fine. "And as you do that, we'll turn the pages, and we'll tell the story of the wedding with each page. So as each image comes along, we'll talk about each couple, and then we'll turn the pages, so we're completely in control of the album and each image, and we'll point out the images, because there's nothing worse than having a couple go through an album and one of your favorite images comes up. It's this really wow image. It goes across two pages, and then they just flip through it, and they don't even, like, take two seconds, or they're in the middle of a sentence, and they didn't even see it. They just turned it without even looking down. And you're like, "No, that was a great shot." So wait, you're in control.

Andrew Hellmich: So with the story, are you actually talking about, say why they picked a location, how these guys met, family situation, what sort of stories are you telling?

Melissa Ghionis: All of that. So we're telling those stories. We'll also explain where it was taken. Sometimes some of our port, some of our locations, are nothing more than just a petrol station that had some beautiful lighting off one wall. You know what I mean. So, and we'll explain that because, particularly with Jerry's style of shooting, and our style of shooting is, you know, it's not so much about the location, it's all about the lighting. And we need our clients to know that, so that they trust us completely. So many times, our location is just the parking lot of the church, you know, and we'll say that that's where this was, because you see this beautiful shaft of light that came in. And so we wanted to take advantage of that beautiful light that was there. Or Jerry will say, you know, "Oh, do you see that beautiful quality of light that's coming in from the window? And do you see how it just tickles across her jaw line there?" And he'll bring all that out. We've even been known to explain posing and directing. And I, I had Jerry bring, get a couple to stand up, and he will talk about how he's going to pose them on the wedding day to bring out their best features. And they're sitting there in our meeting room going through these poses. So we definitely, part of that, the reason why we do it that way is because we want to educate them. It's all about educating them so that when the wedding day comes, they know. I mean, you, I can't tell you how many times on the wedding day, our bride and groom will say to us, "Yes, yes. We know, Jerry, point the toe, bend the knee, push the hip back", you know. And they'll, they'll say to us, so it's all about getting them ready, so that when they, when you're photographing them, they're, they're trusting you completely

Andrew Hellmich: Is this still fall under the umbrella of customer service, all this stuff?

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah, you know, it's funny, because customer service to most people, is just giving them a good quality product. So I guess the most common way of looking at customer service is to under promise and over deliver, which is a big part of it. But for me, customer service is not so much just what you deliver and the actual service of photographing your wedding and then giving them product. For me, it's about the whole client relationship from the very moment you get in. Because how many times have you photographed a wedding with a couple that you just clicked with and by the time you leave that night, the couple's like, "You did such an amazing job. You were absolutely incredible." They haven't seen a single image. So that relationship that you create with them, the way that you're able to make them feel comfortable and relaxed around you, absolutely has an effect on how they see your images. You know, if you were, if you just didn't connect with them, you just, you guys rubbed each other the wrong way the entire day, and it wasn't, wasn't a comfortable experience for you. When they look at your images, no matter how beautiful they are, that's all they're going to remember. So customer service has, is more to do with the relationship part of it than anything else, really.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, what a great explanation, that that's perfect, Melissa. So let's, let's fast forward. I know that the listener will be, I'm sure, fine with the actual wedding day itself and the shoot. So let's fast forward to after the wedding day, and you're taking back over, that they're back onto your turf.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah, right.

Andrew Hellmich: Is there anything different with the post-wedding meetings and the sales, sales meeting as opposed to the initial contact?

Melissa Ghionis: No, it's very similar to that way, in that it's very..

Andrew Hellmich: Same drinks, same welcome, same smile

Melissa Ghionis: Same thing, yeah. So what we'll do is, typically, we put all the clients images into a proof book, and so when that proof book is ready, we'll have them come in to pick it up, and they'll sit there and they'll go through the proof book. In the same thing, when they walk in, we greet them. We're excited to see, we're probably even more excited now than we were before the first time we met them. We offer them something to drink. We offer them little nibbles, and they sit there, and we go through the proof book together. They also have a balance to be paid on their wedding collection at that meeting, so we take care of that, and then at that same meeting, we schedule a date for them to come back and see their album design. So we do all of that on that initial meeting, on that first meeting after the wedding and so yeah, it's always very much that warm, inviting kind of feeling that we want to make sure that they're happy to come in and happy to see us.

Andrew Hellmich: There's no real difference when they come back from one meeting to another meeting, it's the same sort of process.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: And whether they're, sorry, go on.

Melissa Ghionis: The only difference, I'd say, is possibly when they come in for the album appointment. So Jerry will design an album, and then they come in and that meeting can often take a couple of hours. So that could take two, three hours, and we've been known when that's happening to order pizza and order food and we'll have dinner together. So I guess that would be only different.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, right. I guess that actually gets that comfortable. You actually have a meal together.

Melissa Ghionis: Absolutely. We don't want it to be too formal, because you got to remember it, especially when it comes to album sales and that type of thing. This is a huge investment for them. And we are selling to their emotions, and we're selling, they're purchasing emotionally. So we want to make sure that they're as happy and as comfortable as possible to make those decisions right on the spot there.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. I love it. Okay. And then the day they come in to actually collect the album. So I guess that's the last sort of contact you'll have for a little while.

Melissa Ghionis: Yeah, yep.

Andrew Hellmich: They pick up their album, is there anything different that you do there on that collection day?

Melissa Ghionis: Well, when they come in, we, same thing, we invite them in, we give them something to drink, we sit down with them for a little bit, we catch up on what they've been up to since the wedding, and then we bring the album out. So we actually make sure all the drinks are finished. So however long that takes, we'll just chit chat for a little while until the drinks are finished, and then we'll bring the album out, and we go through the album with them.

Andrew Hellmich: Are you turning the page, or they are?

Melissa Ghionis: They're turning the page on this one, but we have little white gloves that they put on, and so they're very carefully turning the pages. And we go through and that's twofold, because we want them to be so excited, and this is the first time they're actually seeing all their images in print and fully retouched and all that. And also we want to just double check that it's all perfect before they leave. So I mean, there actually have been times when an image was wrong or that kind of thing, and so they were able to spot it. And so we want them to spot it before they leave the studio. So it's, it's two-fold, really, to do that.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And then are you? Are you actually, when they're going through the album, obviously, they've got 100%, they're emotionally attached to that album, are you still describing the images at that stage?

Melissa Ghionis: Yes, and no. We're mostly describing the images when Jerry's doing the album plan. So that's when he does the most amount of describing. So when he's going through the design that he's created, he just as the way that we do it. When a client comes in the first time, that's what we're doing, but now with their images. Now, so we'll say, you know, "Oh, this, so this is when you were getting ready, and do you remember this beautiful light that came in?" And so I've posed, Jerry, Jerry will say, "I've posed you in a way to just take advantage of that. You can see the light that's coming across your dress there, and it just brings out all the detail beautifully." And he'll talk like that for the entire album. So by the time they come in and they look at the finished album, not so much describing it, because we've already gone through that during the album plan, this is more just enjoying all the benefits and fruits of it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, great. So they've finished going through the album. They absolutely love it. There's hugs and kisses all around. Do they just walk out with that box? Or do you give them anything else to go with it?

Melissa Ghionis: We don't give them anything else to go with, well, we have a we have a little shopping bag that we've done with our logo, and it's all branded, and it's beautiful. And so we give them all that. It's all packaged up beautifully for them, but we don't give them anything else there. So I, a lot of people will do something and give a little gift, which I actually think is a great idea, but I also think that it's a great idea to sort of put a little bit of separation. So let them go home with the album. This is going to be the highlight of their day. Anything you give them, no matter what it is, whether it's chocolates or whatever it is, is going to be secondary to the album because they're so excited about it. So even if you, if you do want to give them something just as a thank you, or to let them not forget you, I usually say to wait a few weeks or even a month, and whether you do a framed print for them, some extra images or whatever, chocolates, if you want to, do that a few weeks afterwards. So now that the excitement from the album has died down a bit, then you're going to come back into their memory again, and they're going to remind you. I also think when you're doing, when you are giving them gifts. So a lot of people will give, like gift baskets or chocolates or that kind of thing, which I think is, personally, I think is wonderful, because I love that kind of stuff. But I think for your business, one of the best things you can do is gift something that will get them to come back to you. So you could give them a portrait session, for example, you could even give them two portrait sessions, one for themselves. And then what you could do is give them a portrait certificate that comes from them with a blank line that they can then gift to anyone they want to and you put the value on it, say your portrait sitting fees, or say $500. So you put it on there as a proper gift certificate. Say, a portrait session, $500 value. And it's gifted from, you know, Jerry Ghionis Photography, to John and Mary. But then you give a second one as well, which they can then redeem in the next year. Then you give a second one, and the second one says, 'From John and Mary, To" and then you leave it blank. And this is a gift that they can give to someone else, which then makes them look like legends, because they just purchased a $500 gift certificate. So they're now going to gift this to someone because they didn't actually have to pay. And what are they going to do? They're going to say, "Look, this is from our photographers. We absolutely love them. We had such an amazing experience. I'd love for you to have the same experience. Here's the gift certificate that I got you. I got for you so you can go see them." They're going to do all the selling for you. So now you've got a qualified audience, and it works out all around.

Andrew Hellmich: That's a great idea. I love that. Melissa, you've just shared an absolute ton. When we talked about doing this interview, I thought, like, I really want to concentrate on customer service. I thought, really, "Is there an hour in that? Is that going to be a whole podcast?"

Melissa Ghionis: I love it.

Andrew Hellmich: You've just shared an absolute ton. Is there anything that I've missed or that you know? Do you think that the listeners should hear about or know about that we haven't talked about?

Melissa Ghionis: Look, one thing I think would probably, and this does fall under the customer service slash client relationship kind of category is on those rare occasions when you have an unhappy client, and look, that could be a whole podcast on its own, really, but it's, it's always a terrible feeling when something goes wrong, and when you've been in business for a while, it's bound to happen. It's just, it's just going to. There's a few things that you can do. You work so hard to build this relationship with your clients and have them love you. But then if something goes wrong, there's, you got to be very careful about the way you treat that and the way you deal with it, and things like making sure that you listen to them and you handle it very quickly. Normally, our first inclination is to just ignore it or put it off and not call them back and or handle it by email and just be done with it. But again, just like with the first inquiry, the best thing you can do is to pick up the phone and speak with them. As hard as that is, is probably the most difficult thing you'll ever have to do, pick up the phone and speak to them, even if you get a nasty email from a client, usually you'll find that by picking up the phone, a lot of that nastiness will die down, because people just don't like to be as confrontational over the phone as they are over email. So never, ever, ever handle a confrontation or a bad situation with the client via email. Always handle it by a phone and hear them out. So biggest thing when a client has an issue or problem, whether or not it's your fault, is they just want to be heard out, so you got to just listen to them, hear them all out, hear the entire complaint, and things like apologizing. When they're done speaking, will go a long way and calming them down and letting you actually fix the problem. And it's probably, two of those are probably two big steps that most people skip very, very quickly. They don't hear the client out. A client starts talking, and then you try to justify yourself, and you try to, you try to back yourself up and answer their questions, just let them talk. Let them finish the whole thing, and then when they're done, apologize. Even if you haven't done anything wrong, apologize for something. "I'm so sorry you're feeling that way. I'm so sorry you're upset." You can at least agree that they're upset, so you can apologize that they're feeling that way, and that will go a long way in getting them to calm down, just giving you a chance to fix the problem, no matter what it is.

Andrew Hellmich: That's great advice. I love that. Now, if you've experienced that complaint and you've heard them out and you've apologized, do you, do you offer a solution, or do you ask them what they would like you to do to fix it?

Melissa Ghionis: The great question, and most often, photographers, will just offer a solution and try to fix it. But the truth is, is you don't know what they have in mind. You don't really know where they're, where they sit, so you don't really know how to fix it. So the best thing in the world to do is to say, how, "What can I do to make this right for you?" And what happens is, the reason why we don't want to ask that is because in our own heads, we think the worst all the time. So we think, if I ask that question to this client who's angry, they're going to demand all of their money back and then some, and they're going to, they're going to ask for my first born child. And we come up with all of these ideas because we've made it worse in our heads. But the truth is, is I, every time that I've been in that type of situation, I'm always amazed by what they actually want. Whereas I was ready to give them an entire album for free, and they just wanted a couple of eight by 10s, and they thought that was a fair, fair trade-off. So, you know, always ask them, "What can I do to make this better?" And that also signals to your client that you're willing to work with them. You're not being defensive, you're not saying that they're wrong, even if they are. But remember, the end goal is to always have a relationship. Keep a relationship going. People are more likely to tell people, other people about a bad experience they had with you than a good one. So you even, you just want to make sure that it is that you do everything you can just to fix that problem for them and let them be on their way and more often than not, if you are patient with them, and you do fix it very quickly, even if it's at your own cost, you'll find that you've got a client for life, because now you've proved how much their business means to you, and they'll have no reason to go anywhere else.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. That's so good. Now, one last question just popped into my head while you're explaining that. I know that the way, well, I've got an idea, after doing one of Jerry's seminars quite a few years ago that you guys still do, I guess an upsell after the wedding, as far as the album goes. Do you ever run into any, I guess, negativity at that stage by doing the upsell afterwards?

Melissa Ghionis: The only reason why we don't, and this is a really, really good point, is because all along the way, we're telling our clients that we're going to do that. So that is the biggest key, you have to let them know from the very beginning that that's exactly what you're going to do. So even before they book us that first meeting when they come in, all of our albums that we're showing them have about 90 to 100 sides in it. And so we're telling them, "Look, this is, what comes with your collection is the first 30 sides, the first 40 sides, whatever it is. But this album has 90, just to give you an idea of how much more that is, that's what this album is." So we're telling them right from the beginning, and then you say, "Most of our clients end up with an album about this size." So even though you're telling them that this is what most of your clients get, and that their collection, you're reminding them, includes the first 30, 40, 50, whatever size. Then, as we, all along after the, all during the wedding, even sometimes, Jerry will be saying to the couple, "Oh, man, you guys are gonna hate me. You guys are gonna hate me, because it's gonna be so many beautiful photos in here. You're not, you're not gonna, you're not gonna want to cut any of them out of your album." So we're joking with them like that through the whole album. Whenever Jerry, it sometimes, towards the end the night, will show an image on the back of the camera and like, "Oh, Jerry, how are we ever gonna take that out of the album? You know we're going to kill you." You know it's now, we're joking about it. And then after the wedding, after the wedding is all done and they're getting their proofs, I start telling them, "Oh man, Jerry, started designing your album. It is the most beautiful album. I can't wait to, I can't wait for you to see it. Don't forget, it's going to be much bigger than the, what you have already included in your collection. We want you to see every single possibility that's in there, but we're going to sit down with you and we'll go through every single page together." Then, as I'm reminding them of their album appointment that's coming up tomorrow, "Don't forget, your album is going to be much bigger. I'm dying for you to see it. It's so beautiful." To be honest, at some point I've never even seen the album until they come in. But I know it's beautiful.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, of course.

Melissa Ghionis: So I'm constantly telling them so there's no doubt they have no, there's no suspicion that they're going to get an album with only 30 sides when they look at the design. Now, they may want to decide to cut it down to 30 sides, but at least they know when they're coming in that that's not what we're going to show them. We've been telling them that since the very first meeting, and that's the only reason why our clients are not unhappy with us. So Jerry, you know, we'll often say, "Look, what problem would you rather have? Would you rather have a beautiful album with all these different sides where you can't, you can't decide how many you want to cut out because you love them all? Or would you rather have the other problem where you just don't like any of your photos and you don't know which ones to put in your album, because you don't like any of them at all?" So it's all about perspective, really, when you're thinking about, the biggest thing is just always making sure that they know exactly what you're doing. There's never any question that we're going to be designing a much bigger album than what comes with their collection, and we're telling them that over and over and over and over again, and they'll forget. So you can't just tell them once. So if you tell them that on the first meeting, by the time it comes around to designing the album, they will have forgotten, for sure, because there's so much on their mind when they're trying to plan the wedding and everything else, you got to tell them over and over and over again.

Andrew Hellmich: Great advice, Melissa, you've been so generous, and it's just been absolutely wonderful to chat to you. I'm so glad we caught up and got to be able to do this.

Melissa Ghionis: This is fun.

Andrew Hellmich: Good. How can people, I guess I was gonna say, check out your work, because that's what I normally say. How can they stay in touch with you guys?

Melissa Ghionis: So I'm on Facebook under Melissa Ghionis, of course. Our website, is Jerry Ghionis Photography, and on Twitter, I'm Mrs. Ghionis.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, no wonder you're known as Jerry's wife.

Melissa Ghionis: I know, exactly. I've sort of created that myself.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll make sure there's links to all those different places that people can find you in the show notes. And thanks so much again.

Melissa Ghionis: Thank you. And you know Andrew, too, one of the things about the client relationship and the complaints. I know we only touched about that how to handle client complaints and that kind of thing. But there's actually several segments on the ICE Society that deal with it too, in more detail. So if anyone wanted to find out more, read more about it, or get a little bit more information about how to handle those situations, that's all up on there as well, which might be helpful.

Andrew Hellmich: While you're talking about ICE Society. What is The Wedding Works?

Melissa Ghionis: Wedding Works is actually all of the administrative documents that we use in our studio, and we just updated it last year, and it's actually a great resource. So what it is, it's literally a zip file of documents that come in, we send it to you, and it's all of the email correspondences, all of the letters, all of the contracts, everything that we use for our clients is in there, and they're all Word documents. So you can literally just go in, put your studio name in, and then just start using them or modify them however you'd like. There's a telephone scripts. Remember I, how I mentioned when someone contacts you, should always try to speak to them on the phone? We actually have a telephone script of exactly what you should say to them when they, when you do speak to them on the phone. We have a document that explains exactly what I mentioned when they come in and meet with us, our whole process of how we greet them, how we sit down with them, how we meet with them. There's a whole document explaining that whole process. There's documents on how to handle client complaints in there, as well, as well as all of our contracts and letters and emails, everything that we send out to them, and it's part of what I was saying about telling clients over and over again, educating them about how we're going to do the album process. All of that will be very clear in the emails and the letters that we send them to.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and where do people find The Wedding Works?

Melissa Ghionis: So you can find it on the ICE Society's website. So icesociety.com and then you, if you go to the Products section, it's the only product on there. So you'll see that. And then there'll be a listing of all the documents that are available. And it's an incredible resource. So you can purchase it right on the ICE Society. And then you get an automatic download link, so you can download it straight away, and it's a zip file, and you open it up, and all the Word documents just get loaded up onto your computer.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, go and do you know offhand how much that costs?

Melissa Ghionis: Yep, so it's, if you're depends on your whether an ICE Society member or not. If you're not an ICE Society member, you can purchase it for $189, but ICE Society members get discounts off everything. So it ends up being about $170 for an ICE Society member.

Andrew Hellmich: Excellent. That's great. Melissa, thanks so much again. It's been great chatting to.

Melissa Ghionis: Thank you so much for having me.