012: Jerry Ghionis – Cooking Up Wedding Photography Success, Don’t Get Caught in the Fire

012: Jerry Ghionis – Cooking Up Wedding Photography Success, Don’t Get Caught in the Fire

 
Andrew Hellmich: All right, I'm so excited to have the one and only Jerry Ghionis on the show today, when I put word out asking for photographers that you'd like to be here interviewed, Jerry was the one name that kept coming up over and over again. Now he's been shooting professionally for over 20 years, and if I mention all the awards that he's won right now, this show will be over. So, I'm not going to go into all the awards, but I can tell you, he's been named one of the top five wedding photographers in the world and also one of the best photography instructors. But to me, there's something else about Jerry that outshines all the awards he's won. He's a life changer, and if you're lucky enough to be part of one of his workshops, he will change the way you see photography, the way you see business and the way you see life. He's that good. Jerry, I'm stoked to have you on the show. Mate, welcome.

Jerry Ghionis: Thank you so much. Mate, I am, I got goosebumps. I thought maybe that'd be awesome to be that guy.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, it's true. You know, you really are. It's, you're an inspiration. And I'm rapt to have you on the show.

Jerry Ghionis: Thank you. Mate, absolute pleasure.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, some, when I was talking about all those, I mean, I didn't go into the awards and what', what's the one award that really stands out to you? Is there something there that you've earned in the past, that sort of, there is something special?

Jerry Ghionis: I'd say there's two things. There's probably two that stand out. In about 2007 American Photo reached out to me to be part of this article that they were writing. And, you know, I actually grew up with American Photo magazine. I just loved it. It was one of my staple magazines in the industry when I was into it as a hobby and, obviously, as a professional. And then they emailed me asking me if I would like to be part of an article showcasing, you know, their top 10 wedding photographers in the world. And by the time I finished reading the email, I was bawling like a little baby. And so that certainly was a milestone to me. I mean, it's a bit weird now. I think it's a, I don't, it doesn't feel as special anymore, because every year they announce their 10 new best wedding photographers in the world. So it's not like it's, I think the shine has gone off a little bit, but I guess a bit I was very happy to be part of that first ever list. So that was certainly a milestone for me. And then last year, having won the Album of the Year at WPPI for the eighth time in 10 years, was very sweet for me. You know, it just shows consistency and in not only, and actually, you know, you can't flick a whole wedding album, let alone doing it for that long. I was very, very proud to be right up there again. So, you know, like, it's all good.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's unreal. So, I mean, I would have thought you would have said that the first time you won that WPPI Album of the Year award would be more special, but it's the eighth.

Jerry Ghionis: Well, yeah. Well, you know, like any kind of game you play, you know, Barry from Richmond, the Australian rules football team, and you know, you're only as good as your last match. So I don't care that you won a premiership in 1980, I care about what you did last week. I guess it's just the pressure, the pressure that I put on myself to consistently be relevant and consistently, you know, to be right up there. The first time was certainly sweet, but I wasn't physically there to enjoy it, so I wasn't actually at the, in Vegas, at the awards. But, yeah, you know, there's a lot of other stories that go with it, but that's probably the two main things that come to mind.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. Now I really want to get back to the very beginning, when you first started. But can you give us a bit of an idea of a, I mean, it's hard, I guess, for you to say a normal day, but say, you know, a normal week or month in your life at the moment?

Jerry Ghionis: It's sort of, it's funny, because, you know, we live in two places. We live here in Docklands and Melbourne for about four months of the year in Australia, and then we spend the rest of the time in the US and abroad. We live in LA, and it's great. You know, we have a base in LA, which means that we have a place, so, we have furniture, we have our clothes. It's sort of like it's a proper home base. So, it's, it's really fun. In terms of a week to week, well, in Australia, think of it like this way. In Australia, I feel more like a normal photographer, you know, it's business as usual. We see clients, we see inquiries, we see pre-wedding meetings, we do album plans, we do production. And then obviously we, you know, we do a lot of education, as you know. We obviously do workshops and all that kind of thing, and the Ice Society and other projects that we're working on. So really, when we wake up in the day, it's clients first, and that is photography clients, as in people who are paying us to photograph them. And then it's photography students-clients, so to speak, second, because obviously, you know, without being a photographer, then I wouldn't be relevant as a teacher. So, that's pretty much what we do. I guess the good thing about what we do as a couple with Melissa is that we fit like a glove perfectly in every way, but in in terms of business, whatever I don't really enjoy she loves and vice versa. So, I would, I'd probably consider us as, say, myself as the driver and the navigator, and then a Melissa as the engine. And that's pretty much the best way I probably describe our relationship. Because, you know, I'm the entrepreneur, I'm the ideas guy, I'm the creative and she's the one, you know, she's the one doing the bookkeeping, and she's the one answering emails and typing 120 words a minute and all that stuff. But, you know, we, I think, with our change of life a few years ago, you know, we're both very protective of our time together, so, usually, at six o'clock comes on every night, we shut the computer. Weekends, if you don't shoot weddings, we don't shoot, you know, we don't work, so, we have a lot of quality time together. You know, we're very protective of that. So, you know, I've always said to people that "Don't worry, your emails will still be there in the morning, your problems will still be there the more in the following day. Just make sure that you spend time, you know, for yourself, spend time for your relationship", and that's what we do, and that's what we protect and that's what we're working for.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, and that, I think a lot of photographers forget that, don't they? I mean, they're up at midnight answering emails these days.

Jerry Ghionis: I think it's crazy, man, like I said, I know that there's an actual pressure to do that, but ultimately, if you can answer an email within 24 hours, I think you're doing very well. And if you know, you treat your clients well and you deliver what you promise, there's always going to be work. You never totally finish work. It's just not going to happen. The ironic, the ironic thing is that I always talk about, and you may remember this in the workshop that we discussed, that we spend our lives as photographers immortalizing moments for other families. That's what we do for a living, and we take away moments for ourselves. So, the way we look at it, and especially the last couple of years, where we have a lot more clarity, that we immortalize moments for other families to actually have and protect moments of our own, not take it away.

Andrew Hellmich: So, how did you get to that point? Like you're talking, you're making a reference back to a few years ago. Did something happen that you said, "Right, that's it. I'm changing the way I live and work."

Jerry Ghionis: Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, both Melissa and I were married to different people, and you know, certainly there's no disrespect to our former partners. 'Attention please.' Oh there we go. 'System is now complete. It's now complete.' So, for those of you listening, that was our apartment manager of a building basically testing the speaker, the fire alarm. So, just so you know, if you're listening, we are safe. If something happens, I'll run at the door and I'll, we'll be okay.

Andrew Hellmich: I thought it was God coming down, getting on the podcast.

Jerry Ghionis: You, it could be. The Force is strong with me, but going back to what I was saying before, is that, you know, we both were married before, and you know, I certainly think that part of being unhappy in my marriage arguably also helped me be successful in what I did, because I found that, you know, the value that, I didn't get value at home. So, I found, I found value in the industry, and you know, the chicken or the egg scenario. Arguably, if I spent more time at home, would I have still been in that situation? I don't know. All I know is that everything that you do, and I don't necessarily believe that it happens for a reason. I think that we just have to learn from our mistakes and learn from our successes and live the best life as humanly possible. And when we got together, I mean, we're completely compatible in every way. I mean, you know, physically, emotionally, you know, business wise, there's so many things and reasons why we fit so much like a glove. So we made a promise to ourselves that we're going to keep each other in check to make sure that we never sabotage our time together and our life, because you only have one life, you might as well live it, right? So, that was basically it. And, you know, every so often, not often, but every so often, the computer literally be open and 7:30 comes and we say, "Look, you know, life's too short. Put it down." And I think that, like, for example, at the moment, apart from probably what you know, that I'm involved in the things that people are visible to people, I'm literally in the midst of about four or five pretty big projects. Now, I probably would have achieved them by now, in my different, my former life, the problem is that I would have had no life. So, now I'm like, "You know what? I'll get to it. It'll just happen. It doesn't matter, like it doesn't really matter." Nothing matters other than health and happiness. You know, everything else is second to that, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Hallelujah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Family first.

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Let me take you back to the present, Jerry. What, if you're talking about your business? How would you divide it up between shooting, weddings, workshops and training and products? Percentage wise.

Jerry Ghionis: I'd say it's, it's about 50-50, that, yeah, I'd say it's about that. Certainly it's in and around about that percentage, I have made it a true profession out of teaching. It's not just, you know, me teaching a lazy seminar every blue moon, you know, it's become, it's become its own brand, and it's become its own industry in terms of what we've been doing. So, I, and now as a couple, we've taken it very seriously. You know, it's the responsibility of teaching is not a light one. We take it very seriously, as you know, we're one of probably, well, in fact, I don't know anyone else in the world that does a five day workshop in photography that's as intensive as ours. And really, because we, we couldn't possibly give you any less experience of that kind of type of workshop, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, now that they're amazing, they're full on. They're just, yeah, like I said in the intro mate, they really are life changing. How, how then, or why then do you still shoot weddings? If the teaching part is so successful and so good and you enjoy it so much?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, now it all comes back to it, like I love it. I absolutely love photographing. It's in my blood. I'll never stop doing it. I remember, in fact, this year, we've made a promise to ourselves. In fact, we're leaving for LA in a couple of weeks, and we've moved to this brand new place, and it's a sort of a rooftop apartment, and there's an outdoor shooting space. And it's been my dream to have that, and we finally got it, and I want to shoot more for myself. So, you know, when I say more for myself, I certainly I do shoots for myself, but you know, they're infrequent, and a lot of its paid work and all those kinds of things. So, I want to go back to the time when I was 15, when I'd walk the streets at three o'clock in the morning just to get the right fog. And that's in my blood that'll stay in there forever. I mean, you know? So, when the curtains comes down, when the, our society is offline, when all that stuff has been and gone, and said and done, the fact is that I'll still be photographing, and I don't care if I have an audience, and I'll do it for myself. And that being said, whatever I'm teaching, I need to be relevant. So, you know, I believe that it's, it's, almost insincere to teach without practicing it yourself. And it's one of those things, you know, I find that many of us, we first just want to make it, and it's a three M's, we want to make it first, right? And then you want to matter, like you want to make a difference with what you do, and then you want to master and I think that that's a never ending journey that we have as photographers and as teachers, you will never stop mastering your craft of teaching and photographing. And like I said, I will never stop photographing, even if I went blind, I'd still photograph I think, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Very cool. Mate, can you take us back to the beginning and how you got started? Because from what I remember from, I think it was one of the very early seminars I saw you speaking at. It might have even been an Albums Australia one, years and years ago. But if, what I remember is you started in a half a little shop that was attached to a butcher?

Jerry Ghionis: No, so, it was a chicken shop, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Chicken shop

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, my brothers Nick and John, that they opened up a chicken, a charcoal chicken, takeaway food store in the northern suburbs of Melbourne, with Fairfield. And you know, back then, we lost our family home to the recession. It was a really tough time. I mean, interest rates back then on some rate on accounts, were like 28%, so, I remember my parents being overseas trying to, you know, do business to save the family home. And I was pretty much from the age of 12 to 18-19, I pretty much remember me being mostly home alone. And I remember one day going home and the locks were changed, the bank took over the home. I had to break into my own house to, you know, change my clothes and move all the furniture into the garage because they couldn't lock the garage. It was a funny little thing to it. And it was a really tough time. So, back then, I was also getting married for the first time. I got married when I was at the age of 20, and it was, what I do. I worked for someone else for a few years, but they were paying me nothing. I didn't really get the respect, I think, and I decided to spread my wings. So, my brothers owned this, this chicken shop, and they had this really big store in the corner of this street. And I thought, being a corner and a separate door and a window on the other side, I thought, if I can actually build a wall in this storeroom, it could literally be an entry to a little, a little area that I can see clients. And I thought, 'Fantastic. I'm close to my brothers. We can hang out. And we my family had businesses there as well, so life was good.' So, that was in 97 we basically built that studio. And my first year, I shot 25 weddings. My second year I shot 50, double my prices. I went to 100 weddings, and then double the prices again, and went to 100 weddings a year again. And that was in the old days of film. So, it was a very full on time. And I always found getting the work in pretty easy, but it was tough, man. It was a tough, tough time, but also very exhilarating, because I found that business was really more creative than photography. You know what you can do with strategizing and challenged of finding new work and maximizing sales. I always found very, very stimulating.

Andrew Hellmich: So, let me just jump in. So, were you XSiGHT Photography at this stage?

Jerry Ghionis: No, I was a different business name. I was Foto Forte. So, photo spell with an F and forte. So, what you're good at and that kind of thing. And I, you know. It was, it was a good name for its time and I, but there was one time where I looked at I thought, this does not, it doesn't really, I can't see this name up in lights, in the sense that I don't think it can grow as much as another name would. And basically, the catalyst behind rebranding and expanding was that I went to a Gold Class movie theater. So, for those listeners out there who don't know what that is, and in Australia, we have a Gold Class movie theater, which is like, rather than seeing an auditorium of 300 people, you sit in auditorium with maybe 30 people with recliner chairs, and you can order food into the film and alcohol and all that kind of stuff and obviously you paying about double for the experience. So, after the my first movie that I saw in Gold Class, I literally walked out and I said, "Man, I've got to give my clients a Gold Class experience." So imagine seeing the best movie that you've ever seen in Gold Class with experience. So that was basically it. Now I, my brother's landlord, which became my landlord, I convinced, took me a year to convince him to build a second level above the studio, and then another year to build it, and then I needed a new name to go with the vision. And believe it or not, I was playing Scrabble one day, and the expensive letters of the highest point letters in Scrabble was like the rarest ones, like X's and the J's and the Q's and the Z's. And I thought, wouldn't it be cool to call my studio with, with the letter X? And then if you look in the dictionary, that a lot of the letters, a lot of, there's hardly any words with starting with a letter X, but every time you think of an X word, it's actually with an 'ex'. And then I started rattling off all these names that would be good and Excite came up, and I thought, "Wow." I as soon as I saw it, I spelt it without the E, with the X and sight, as in vision. And then you add them together, and then I knew that I had this powerful brand that would be more recognized than my previous brand and that was it. And we might we're off. And that was, that was around about 2000-2001.

Andrew Hellmich: Now you said there that you were, when you're in the chicken shop, you're doubling prices and doubling again and still getting all these bookings. And that's when you found that you had that, that knack for business, or you love that, that business side. What were you doing back then that was getting you these bookings?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, look, there was a few things. I mean, even I was back, oh, literally, I was at the back of a chicken shop. I mean, it actually looked pretty cool. I don't know if the guys out there know what corflute is. Corflute is like a translucent material that sign writers use where the light, you can see light through it, but you can't see through it. So, when you walk into the studio, studio, let's call it a glorified bedroom. Two of the walls were corflute with a aluminum strip with six by seven inch holes cut out of it. So, I actually shot a pretend wedding on transparency. And then I had this fluorescent light behind these translucent, this corflute and transparencies. And then I had a metal plate framing them with a TV embedded to the wall. So already it was actually, it was a sexy studio, and to be honest, I can't believe I don't even have a photograph of it. I was there for quite a few years, but I don't have one image of that damn place, so it's a bit of a regret of mine. But other than that, it was great, and I found I had a really good knack for people. I mean, I've always had fun with people, and I don't. I don't take life too seriously, as you know. When I need to be serious, I am. When I have a laugh, I do. So I found that I really got people to trust me with my empathy and my human and certainly, the work matters. I mean, you know, there's many people that will tell you today that the work doesn't matter. You can be decent and you can run a successful business. Well, that's true. But can you run a more successful business with photography? Absolutely, you know, I'm one of the people that will tell you that the actual work matters, the craft, the lighting, the posing, the storytelling, the emotion, that matters. I mean, too many of us are getting complacent and lazy with our photography and lazier than the way we overzealously Photoshop that it's become an epidemic, I think, in our industry. But part of me is actually very happy, because there's a whole new generation who shoot glorified snapshots that slap a texture over them to make it look interesting and it makes the likes of me, who know the craft, and many others, of course, who that stand out, you know? So from that perspective, it's not a bad thing.

Jerry Ghionis: So you are getting bookings then, based on your work, and obviously that the studio looked fantastic. So you weren't doing things like email marketing and Facebook and things like, things that guys are doing today. I know you were big into magazines, but I don't know if it was already at that stage.

Jerry Ghionis: Well, it certainly wasn't that stage. I mean, really, there wasn't, I mean, there was no, I mean, there was no email back then. Oh, there was email, the web, yeah, it was growing in popularity and all that kind of thing, certainly. But we didn't have the Twitters and the Facebooks and the Instagrams and all that kind of stuff that we do now. Yes, marketing, I marketed the hell out of my business. I mean, even when I was busy, I marketed. I always, I always think of marketing like an exercise bike. You can jump on an exercise bike and ride the hell out of it, and then all of a sudden the momentum is building so much that you realize the wheels are doing the work, and then your legs are just following with it. And then you, many of us, what we do is when we market ourselves. Well, we jump off thinking that we can have a holiday, and then realizing you go back to that exercise bike, as a metaphor for your business, of course, that it slows down. And with all the workshops that I do, I'm telling you now that most people, all they do is have a decent website, they have a blog, they have Facebook, and that's all their marketing. And then they blame the recession. You know, I'm sorry, but you suck. You know, like it's your fault, it's your problem. If that's all you do, that's not enough. And you might think, "Well, wait a second, it worked last year, or it worked three years ago." Well, well, that's different. It could have been a combination of elements that make you feel that it's that, that all you have to do is that. I still believe that you have to be in front of people. I still believe that you have to be out there, promoting yourself, hustling, you know, all that stuff. You know that that's, that's what it's all about.

Andrew Hellmich: So, so back then, it was, with a magazine sort of doing the biggest thing for you then?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, that got me, that got me known very quickly. So at the start of my career and my business career, I decided to actually acquire the back cover of all the popular bridal magazines, at least in our state, and a lot of them were taken. But I asked for the first, for the first right to be able to acquire the cover if that person that was on there, backed out. So my foot, my first year, I ended up getting three covers of magazines. And at my peak, I think we had about 11, 11 covers of magazines. And I mean, even like the local soap operas on TV, like Home and Away Neighbors, the characters would get married holding a bridal magazine, and because on the back cover, the word and the name XSiGHT was like on TV for like minutes, which I couldn't pay for that product placement, even if I wanted to. So that was part of it. I mean, you know, associating myself with bridal fares, I brought it was to a certain extent, reception venues, dressmakers, car people, florists, makeup. I mean, you name it. I knew them and that they all knew me.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, then so you move upstairs to above the chicken shop.

Jerry Ghionis: Uh-hum

Andrew Hellmich: And then for me, is that when you build your purpose made studio?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, yeah, pretty much. So what happened was that, yeah, but 2000-2001 we built that second level and then finally we made that, that Gold Class theater and red carpet, six beautiful couches, big screen, surround sound. And don't forget, right, this is like, about 12 years ago now, and we were the only ones doing it. I mean, this was full on. I mean, we were doing video as well at the time. It was, it was an amazing experience. And we saw up to six couples at once. So it was a, it was a really full on time.

Andrew Hellmich: So you had six other photographers and videographers, you know, ready to go?

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah. So what happened was it we do, like, a half an hour audio visual, and then, you know, we'd have photographers there on the night as well as videographers, and a photographer or videographer who was free for that particular wedding, we would see that client. That's what would basically happened. So after the audio visual, we would split up, of course, they'd be holding their favorite beverage, like a champagne, a coffee, cappuccino, soft drink, whatever they want. And we were booking them like I was going out of fashion, I mean. I remember one day I booked about, I think it was about 11, 11 out of 12 bookings on one day. And I was pissed off that I didn't book that 12th one, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: So, so you got it's going crazy. Things are just going, you know, off the Richter scale. Business is good, you know. Where do you go from there?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, well, that's the thing is, I guess it depends on what you want. I mean, back at the time, of course, as you may or may not know, my brother, Nick is also very successful in his own right as a photographer and as a business person. And he bought into the business, trying to think, when he bought the business, I think 2003 or something like that. So certainly we, you know, we, we held the reins of the brand together and then he acquired all of it in about 2007 but, you know, we, it was great, like it was the energy was incredible. I can't even tell you that the energy was incredible, you know. And at our peak, I said, we're doing about 300 weddings a year with all our photographers combined. And where do I, where did I go from there? I guess, so they said, where do you go from there?

Andrew Hellmich: Why not? What was, I guess, I'm trying to get into your head here. So when things are rocking, you just on fire. Are you looking to just keep going the way you are? Or do you think all of a sudden, you know, 'I want to change direction. I want to do something else.'

Jerry Ghionis: Well, you know, look, I did that for 10 years, and it was great. I guess that what happened was part of you, part of you gets shared around when you have that many employees and that many responsibilities. You know, I'll be shooting a wedding on Saturday, and I'd worry about four other weddings happening at the same time that someone wouldn't break their leg or the car wouldn't break down on their way to their wedding. And, I mean, there's all these things that you just, you just got to think about, right? Because a wedding you can't, you can't replace or redo. So it was a, I found myself as a business owner, with that many, much responsibility I'd have to put out spot fires pretty much the whole day, every day, and that's just, that's the nature of a business. And it's a nature of, I mean, I call myself a small business, but it was a big business for our industry.

Andrew Hellmich: Definitely.

Jerry Ghionis: So I just, I guess I just got, I want to say impatient. I didn't, the energy that I wanted to put in there. I didn't feel anymore. And also, at the same time, I wanted more time as well for my, for back then, my family, so to speak. And I was also teaching. I found a big love for teaching. And of course, I found that it was very hard to do that while I'm actually held week in, week out for the whole year at this particular studio, although certainly we know I did it and taught, and I even actually sacrificed my month off that we had every year to teach, because I just loved it so much, so. And that's what's pretty much happened there. A few other things combined, but ultimately, I just moved on because I wanted more time, and I didn't want that responsibility anymore, and I just wanted a new challenge, and hence, you know, moving on and then opening up a more boutique brand in the, in Docklands, right?

Andrew Hellmich: So I actually interviewed Sally Sargood last week, and her episode is coming out on Monday.

Jerry Ghionis: Oh, really.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, and she mentioned that when you went out onto your own, so I think that the story goes that you sold the business to Nick your brother. Is that right?

Jerry Ghionis: Yes, that's right.

Andrew Hellmich: And then you started Jerry Ghionis Photography, and you doubled your prices so you could do less weddings. Is that true?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, you know, we started at about three and a half thousand dollars at XSiGHT, and we probably averaged six to seven. And then at my current studio, we started at 7000. Now, we average about 20. That's pretty much what we're at the moment.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so if I come in to book you for my wedding.

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Is there packages these days for you, or is it just a flat fee? How do you work out your pricing?

Jerry Ghionis: There are collections, you know, we start at 7000. No one pretty much books in the $7,000 price. It's sort of like a price that's there so it can at least be attainable for some, I mean, most of the time we get rejected because of our price, although people love the work and almost, I mean, pretty much we've, we've looked at our averages for the past several years, and it's around about the $20,000 mark, which we're really proud of. Because the funny thing is that people think that, you know, we only do high end weddings. And I don't even know what that means, high end. High end, as far as I'm concerned, just means that you find couples to pay you more. And ironically, our clientele hasn't changed. It really hasn't changed. You know, the, in the sense that, you know, I, we still do suburban, working class families and corporate couples, and they're no different to who we used to photograph, and we're basically, I know this sounds really funny, but who knew all you have to do to actually make more money is charge more? Yeah, it's such a stupid thing to say, but if they love your work and they want you and you are a certain price, and they have no choice. So if they get it, if they get a $7,000 collection then, and they want a big, beautiful album that I've pitched to them, well they're going to have to spend more money on extra sides. And they know this for a fact. There's no hiding what we you know, what we do, what we charge, or anything like that. And we tell them, you know that most people end up spending around about 20 plus. And we, we sort of like train them to think like that. We develop them, they're almost like their mental muscle memory that that's what they should be looking at. And would rather put people off and not book us, so that when they do book us, there's no surprise that it will be X amount, you know. So.

Andrew Hellmich: So when do they start hearing about this $20,000 figure, is that on the phone when they ring up to make an inquiry?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, you know, these days, we generally email a price list to most, and for those people who are happy to get, you know, happy to get back to us, we see, here's the thing, right? We're not available most of the time, because in Australia, we're only available four months of the year, and the rest is in the US and abroad. So it sort of limits a lot of people. But most of the time, they hear about our prices straight away. Then when I talk to them, if I'm doing an in person inquiry or a Skype inquiry, as we're doing now, for example, then I will, I will let them know with those words, I'll say, "Yes, most people spend around about 20 plus", and that's the thing, there's some people that are happy for that as well, because there's some people that, and by no means am I saying I'm the best, but some people perceive the best to be expensive, so that if you're not expensive in their mind, then you know, then you're no good.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Jerry Ghionis: And there's some people that will just do that and that's just the way it is, but certainly, you know our quality is right up there, and we keep it consistent, make sure it's all beautiful and give them a great experience. But it really has increased the last couple of years to get to that point.

Andrew Hellmich: So it sounds to me they're like, your clients aren't getting shoot and burn packages.

Jerry Ghionis: I have never done a shoot and burn. I have not done one in my career. Have we done one, actually? Think about it, no. Not even for a photographer, right? Yeah, yeah. Actually, that's what Melissa is reminding me, that basically, you know, they say, "Well, look, we, all we want is a glorified shoot and burn." And I'm like, "Well, you can have a shoot and burn, or you can have a shoot and burn for the same price as at least any album. It's inclusive." And of course, everyone's gonna get an album. I mean, I believe in albums. I just don't believe in the shoot and burn. I think it's a, I think it's a ridiculous notion. I mean, when you think about it, right? We are the first digital generation. We are the first digital generation, and there is going to be a gap. I mean, if, let's say something, something happened, a meteor came down from frigging heavens and it was a big magnet, basically, and all the hard drives in the world crashed, you would, you would not know that our generation existed or grew up.

Andrew Hellmich: No, I agree. It's sad. It's sad.

Jerry Ghionis: You know, and you know, that's, if you're going to get away, if you're going to basically hire me to photograph your wedding, then don't waste my time or talent by not getting an album. It's a waste. I'd rather spend time with Melissa and have fun. Why would I just take all these amazing shots and then you get a, you're going to print them on your own printer, or go to Kmart for God's sake. I mean, it's ridiculous.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, let's take it back then to the actual listeners and a little bit, because you're teaching the people down in the trenches that are probably a lot less price-wise than you are, and you must be hearing about all these shoot and burn packages. What do you say to those photographers that are heading down that road?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, here's the thing, right? I don't want to be cynical about it. I guess. Here's the thing, that there is a market for that. There's no question. There's a market for that, okay, so let's get that straight. I mean, if Melissa and I were getting married and we couldn't afford more than a $500 shoot and burn photographer, who the hell we're going to book? We're going to book a shoot and burner, right? No problem. That's totally fine. And quite simply, from another perspective, if I needed to feed my family, and all I knew is, remotely my, the only skill that I had is to photograph, then would I be doing a shoot and burn for 500 bucks in a weekend to feed my family? Of course I would. There's nothing I wouldn't do.

Andrew Hellmich: Uh-huh

Jerry Ghionis: Now, let's, let's take it beyond, I mean, let's take it beyond that. Let's, let's go to the Maya photographer. Let's talk about the, you know, the target Kmart photographer. Let's talk about the Maya photographer. You're right. And for those American listeners, let's call it your Macy's crowd. So to speak.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect. Yeah.

Jerry Ghionis: What I'm trying to say is that I think that many of that Macy's credit going down to the shoot and burn where, if you literally put yourself side by side with your competition and said to yourself, "Okay, my competition is only offering a shoot and burn, but I want to at least give them an album." And you know, yes, they beat you with price, because there's no nothing else but shoot and burn, but you beat them with your albums in there. You beat them with your personality. You beat them with your experience. So I'm just saying is, if you can't beat them on value, then beat them elsewhere. And I can guarantee you that if you do what you do well, then you will. And it's education. You know, there's, there's so many people that don't educate their clients as to the importance of an album and the importance of what it means and the longevity of it. And of course, we're going to rattle off the cliches that we all know. But there is a way of doing that and convincing people as to exactly what you charge and why you charge what you do. But my advice to someone starting now in the industry, if you're headed down that road, I'm gonna say to you, don't, don't feel bad about it. We all start somewhere, right? Like we all started very cheap. Maybe back in my day when I started 20 years ago, I think my first package was about $1,100 when I started, and that included, like, a small little album or something like that. All I'm saying is that we start that way. We've got to get experience up. We've got to get some weddings under our belt and so on. If you want to end up charging a decent amount of maybe getting to your Saks Fifth Avenue crowd and your Neiman Marcus or your Barneys, then the problem is that you set a precedent for all that you do for your clients, that when friends of theirs come that they're going to expect a similar thing. So there's going to be some time in your career that you have to draw a line in your sand and start believing in yourself, believing in what you do, charge accordingly and obviously with experience and repetition and practice, all that will surmount to this, this incredible business, and to be able to charge accordingly for it. Because there's some photographers that tell me, "Well, no, there's no, the recession seemed hard in our town. We're all saturated. We're the biggest, we have the largest volume of photographers in the world, in our city." Well, you know how many times I've heard that all over the world? It's incredible, you know, like, I just believe that if in your town, there is expensive, there are expensive restaurants, there are expensive cars, there are expensive clothing stores and all that kind of stuff. I tell you, there's a market out there. There's money. And where there's money, there's people actually going to want to, you know, get a beautiful album and invest accordingly. If your work looks like everybody else's, If your experience is like everyone else's, then of course, they're going to just judge you on price, therefore be paying less, you know, so beat them somewhere else is what I'm saying.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, I can tell you exactly what I'm seeing in my area, and I'm pretty sure it's being reflected, certainly all around Australia and I imagine in America too. But I've seen that Macy's sort of brand of photographer that you're talking about, that average good photographer that were making a good living and charging good money with albums are now starting to drop those albums out of their packages. They're starting to do the shoot and burn. They're starting to chase their tail and compete on prices. And that's, is that what you're seeing too, through your classes?

Jerry Ghionis: Man, we said everywhere. I mean, I can tell you how many countries we went to last year, and all the cities we went to all around the world. And everyone, everyone's doing the same thing, everyone's scared, everyone's putting their prices down, excluding albums, all that kind of thing, and even, let's just say, let's say, if you did that, at least charge good money for it. You know, I mean, don't go out there to waste, you know, like, waste your time and talent for like, 500 bucks. Don't get me wrong. Like I said, there was a market for that.

Andrew Hellmich: Uh-huh

Jerry Ghionis: I believe, though, that most people listening to this podcast may not want to be there. They may want to be a bit above that. I'm saying charge good money for your talents, because don't think, because you're not including an album, that therefore the price should be lower. Now, after all, what are you, what are you buying? What is a couple buying? Are they buying paper and cardboard and leather? They're paying for your talent. They're paying for your eye. They're paying for your soul. They're paying for the way you see the world, your craft in using light and shade and sculpting bodies and bringing out humor and empathy and all these things that we do in a beautiful wedding, that's what they're paying for, you know. It's, you think about it, you don't go to Chanel and you're buying a dead piece of cowhide, a cow, you know, cow skin. No, you're buying, you're buying the craftsmanship and what it was put together, the packaging, the experience. I mean, there's all these things that go with it. So I think that we've our vision has been lost a little bit. And you know what? I think, I guess I don't really blame the photographers. I think certainly that a lot of us are misguided. I blame the circumstance. Circumstantially, we are living in an age in 2013 now with like, if anyone over the age of 12ish in a first world country has a phone, which means they have a camera on their person, which means that photography is really accessible to sort of, really, anyone, really, when you think about it.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it is.

Jerry Ghionis: And with these apps that are very easy to use, like Instagram and Hipstamatic and all those sexy little fun things that we use, they can make any photo look interesting. And a note that I said, 'interesting' and not good, because, you know, I go to Instagram sometimes and post something on Instagram, and I look at all the filters, and I click on them, thinking that I should use them, and I'm like, "No, they just make the photos look crappy", you know. So I stick to the original. And that's what I'm saying, is that what's happened is that there's disrespect in our industry now more than ever, because everyone has the tool of our trade on their person and you know, and I think the sign of the times is when just only a few weeks ago, my nephew and niece had their maternal cousins over from London, and we were having dinner all together, and this cute little eight year old boy was sitting across from me, and he says, "You know, what do you do for a living?" And I said, "I'm a photographer." And he looked at me seriously and said, "That's not a real job." And, and he was serious. And I said, well, I go, "Why isn't it a real job?" "Because, well, everyone's got a everyone's got a camera, you know, everyone can be a photographer”, he says. And I'm like, "Really?" I said, "If everyone had a microphone right now, could everyone sing?" And then he giggled nervously, knowing that he was, you know, his whole world be crashing down on him. And I said, "If you had Roger Federer's tennis racket in your hand right now, would you play as well as Roger Federer?" And then he had, finally clicked, you know, because people take it for granted, you know, "Hey, how hard is it point the camera and shoot?", so that the digital era, the digital generation, has demystified the magic behind what we do. That's our problem. There's no magic anymore. Because back when I started, I was shooting with an RB67 in the mirror, with a big Mets flash. I had my light meter, my reflector. It was, there was magic behind it. I mean, no one else could do what I did on that particular day. Then, then when photography started becoming more accessible, like when you could scan film, then it, there was a slow introduction to digital and then all of a sudden, digital cameras came out. Can we trust them? And then all of a sudden, I don't know, 2003-2004 then all of a sudden, anyone could be a photographer and here we are today, right, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah, no, it's, I think it, I think it is harder than ever to, certainly to show that we do something fantastic, and to make sure that we look different to average Joe and, you know, Uncle Bill.

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, yeah. So that's the thing, is that, like, there's never, I believe there's never more important time to learn our craft. Because I know this sounds really crazy, and Andrew, you may remember this in the workshop, is the fact is that what will, what might differentiate you from you and your competition is the fact that you know what you're doing. As stupid as that sounds, that's what might be the difference. You actually know how to light someone. You know what short lighting, broad lighting means. You know what clamshell lighting means. You know how to do corrective posing on in different bodies and body parts, and you know how to tell a story, you know how to dissipate moments like there's all these things that people have never learned.

Andrew Hellmich: But even if we know all those things, how do we get our brides and grooms understand that that's what we know, that's what they're paying for?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, it's teaching them, isn't it?

Andrew Hellmich: At the appointment?

Jerry Ghionis: The first thing is that, well, it's in every way. I mean, here's the thing, right? You look at a bridal magazine today, and what are you going to find? You're going to find 50 photographers. And then there's just one image or one ad that just strikes you for some reason. And here's the thing you might say, "Well, Jerry, people, a bride doesn't know what frigging you know clamshell lighting is, or doesn't know what short lighting is, doesn't know what corrective posing is. What does that mean to a bride?" Well, yes, a bride does not know the difference between good and great photography, but she does gravitate towards well-crafted, beautiful photography. There's no question. A bride will look at 100 websites and then she'll always go back to this one "I don't know what it was, but this photographer spoke to me." Now, when it comes to education, well, I think that your images should say volumes about what you do and who you are, but when I am doing an inquiry, I literally say, "This is what I do and why I do it, and this is what makes me different." Apart from the obvious is because you've called me, and you're actually, you're, you know, you're in my four walls, or we're doing an inquiry over Skype, or whatever it may be. So it's already a, you know, the qualifications that have already there. It's sort of unwritten. It's already there. But when they're physically in front of me, I mean, Melissa was laughing the other day because she literally stumbled across me doing an inquiry, and as I was standing up with the bride, as I was teaching her how to pose and you might say, "Well, why would I stand up and show a bride how to pose in one of the first meetings?" Because pose is normally a dirty word when it comes to brides. Well, the bride said to me, "Jerry, I don't I don't like to pose. That's why we called you." And I said, well, in as much as my photographs look very natural, I do direct a lot of my shots, especially apart from the ceremony, reception and you may remember this line, Andrew, I use that line again, and I said basically to the bride, "As beautiful as you are, I could make you shine brighter than ever before with a simple direction. Would you like that?" And then she basically just said, "Well, of course." And I said, "Well, let me show you what I'm talking about." I said, "If you're sitting the way you're sitting right now, because she was slouched. And I said, your bus will be hidden by your arms, therefore you'd have no shape." Then she quickly sort of sat up, and I said, "Well, if you pointed your toe, bent your knee and shifted your weight on your back leg, and you lent forward, your chin up, I said you'd look slimmer and sexier around your face. Your bust will look fuller, your butt will look smaller, and you'd have beautiful shape to your body." I go, "Well, you can do whatever you wish, but if you're going to hire me to photograph your wedding, I'm going to make it look incredible. So it's really up to you." , so.

Andrew Hellmich: Another booking

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, I mean, and I haven't shown a single photograph yet, so what I'm doing is I'm actually being brutally honest as to what I do and why I do it, because that's what I do best. I bring out the best in people, not just with their work, but in people, you know, that's what I do for a living. So, and that's what I'm saying, is that, you know, you have to educate people. Have to educate them. Not only it's about everything, about who you are, why you are, the way you are, your work, what you're doing, all the financial implications. I mean, you know, I found that once you do that, it makes for a very easy communication and easy relationship, and life is good. So we're thankfully, we've got to the point in our careers that we can charge what we charge, we can do what we do. And we have to go, I'm telling you now, we have to go through a lot of people to get the 20 weddings a year odd. Because one, we're not available for most weddings because we're either in America or Australia and vice versa. Two and then two were too expensive for them, but we have to go through a lot to get to that point. So the ones that we get into the door or over a Skype inquiry, we treat them like gold and make sure that that's just the that's just the way it is.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, let me just ask you one more question before I take you into the 10 quick question segment.

Jerry Ghionis: Sure

Andrew Hellmich: With all the clients that you're seeing through the photographer, clients through the classes. I mean, you talked earlier about sort of getting onto the back page of magazines, and there wasn't so much to do with email marketing and websites. What do you see today as the photographer? What should they be doing to get their name out there, to show their work off, to get in touch with those brides?

Jerry Ghionis: One word

Andrew Hellmich: Give it to me.

Jerry Ghionis: Everything.

Andrew Hellmich: So Facebook, Twitter, Instagram..

Jerry Ghionis: I would, I mean, look, I would do everything. I mean, I'm in a bit of a different position in my career, where I don't really market at all. I mean, I do have a website, and I have one magazine here in Melbourne that I advertise in to remind people that I exist here in Australia. Certainly, I mean, you know, I've developed relationships and stuff, but I if I was as hungry back then as I was now, if I wanted to rule the world with what I did, I would be doing everything, and I would not putting all my eggs in a social networking basket. No, not at all, because there's going to be someone more handsome, there's going to be someone, you know, tutor with what they say. There's going to be someone that's that has that knack better than me, but, but combined, I mean, I would do a bridal fair. I would do my own bridal fair. I would do same day slideshows. I would be, you know, dealing with reception venue owners. I'd be going to priests. I'd be going to jewelers. I'd be going to cake people, car people, you name it. I would be giving up my work to charity auctions. I would be involved in the community, my religious group, my culture, my religion, my, you know, my nationality, you name it. I would be doing it. And that's what a business owner should be doing. They should be working on the business and not so much in it. So consider yourself an artist on the weekend and a business person during the week.

Andrew Hellmich: It's refreshing to hear you say that, because you know, all too often I think photographers are concentrating 99% of their focus on Facebook, and that's it.

Jerry Ghionis: Well, here's my problem, right? 99% of my friends, so to speak, on Facebook, are all photographers. So I can't even use it because I've used up to two profiles now and I have my other one. So my clients are lost in it. So that's my curse, I guess, which is a bit silly, but yeah, you know, you can't. It's not just Facebook, because it almost makes it too human. You know what I mean? Like, I like the humanity of it, but at the same time, it's human, but it's not. For me, like in this podcast, can you imagine this podcast if it was written down in a transcript? Would you hear my emotion, my enthusiasm, my passion for what I did and what I'm saying? You would not freaking hear anything. So that's what I'm trying to say, is you cannot replace hearing something, you know, seeing something. You can't replace that human element to things. So I'm a big believer in getting out there in front of people and you know what, if you're like that fantastic, because if everyone's doing the social networking thing only, awesome because you will stand out incredibly if you're out there in amongst it. But like I said, man, everything. I would do everything and not only would I establish these relationships, like I mentioned before, I would manifest them no matter how busy I was, I would make sure that I remind people that I exist and I'm good at what I do, and I'm there for them as well. So I always believe that business is about goodness. What can I do for you? I can help you with your clients. You help me with yours, and life is good.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect answer. I love it. I love it. Takes me back to the seminar. That's really good, mate. Are you ready for these? 10 quick questions?

Jerry Ghionis: I'm ready, buddy.

Andrew Hellmich: 10 quick questions, 10 quick answers, 3-2-1, go! Canon or Nikon?

Jerry Ghionis: Nikon all the way. Once you go black, you never go back.

Andrew Hellmich: What was your first ever camera?

Jerry Ghionis: Nick gave it to me. A Pentax MG.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. That's going back. Your favorite lens and why?

Jerry Ghionis: Easily, the 7200 VR to 2.8 it makes everyone look sexy, and it's the best perspective. Anything close to a 50 mil is what I see with my own two eyes. I'm bored of that. That's what I do all day.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. JPEG or RAW?

Jerry Ghionis: Used to be JPEG. I've been RAW now exclusively for several years, because my digital artists say you have to shoot RAW, because that's what I want. We've got more latitude. And then I find out that most of the time they select all and convert to JPEG. I think, what the hell did I just freaking give you RAW for, anyway.

Andrew Hellmich: Let me rephrase that question. If you were shooting for yourself and doing your own work. Would you shoot JPEG or RAW?

Jerry Ghionis: I wouldn't be worth doing my own work.

Andrew Hellmich: Come on.

Jerry Ghionis: Look, I like getting it right in camera, and certainly I never give proofs to my clients in the sense that they're straight from the camera or every, every one of my moves are retouched and color corrected, but I believe in invisible Photoshop. Like you can't see what I've done to it. It's timeless, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: Beautiful. What was the single biggest breakthrough you've had in your business life?

Jerry Ghionis: Breakthrough, okay..

Andrew Hellmich: The big 'the aha moment' when you thought, that's it. I've got this.

Jerry Ghionis: You know what happened? I know, this sounds really funny, but about 2000-2001, I can't even explain how or why, I just woke up more creative. I don't know. Honestly, this sounds funny because I, this a fresh conversation with Melissa, only about a week or so ago, and she was asking me about this as well. Is that I found that, you know, when I came up with the name XSiGHT, and when I invent, reinvented the business, for some reason, just my work just went up a notch. It was this big growth spurt that I've never really got off in my career. So what was the catalyst behind it? It was probably my reinvention of my business. But, like, it's not only, everything just turned to gold. I can't of explain it.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome

Jerry Ghionis: Maybe just my mind. I was ready, emotionally, physically, mentally, creatively, and in all that energy just shifted that one point, you know?

Andrew Hellmich: I'd love to know if you read a book the night before you went to bed that day.

Jerry Ghionis: In the Bible.

Andrew Hellmich: All right. Question six, if you had to start over again today, with the knowledge that you have, but you're going to start over again, what would you do?

Jerry Ghionis: I would be a singer.

Andrew Hellmich: I heard, I heard that you were actually thinking about going on to or trying it for The Voice. Is that true? Is that true?

Jerry Ghionis: That may happen, but not, not anytime soon.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome!

Jerry Ghionis: When I was 15, I wanted to be a singer or photographer and, did we do karaoke at the workshop? We normally do it.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, you did. Yeah.

Jerry Ghionis: I explore my other, my other passion when I can and I share that as well. Look, I said that really in jest. But although there's some truth to it. In terms of photography, would I do anything differently, knowing what I know now? Certainly, I would have a life. Yeah, I would. I would really balance it. I mean, I would really strategize my whole business around giving me a life. And don't get me wrong, I know that you've asked a quick question, but I think it's important. I think many of us, we agree that sometimes you've got to do what you have to do, to do what you want to do. In other words, you've got to work your ass off and all hands on deck to give you choices. Actually, this is quite funny. Melissa is putting some steaks in the barbecue, you have to wait for the barbecue to heat up. So funny, so there you go, guys, I'm having a barbecue at lunchtime on a Thursday, and Melissa cooks, she's the kitchen girl, and I'm the barbecue guy, and I'm like, I'm doing this podcast. I'd like you to actually warm up the grill and put the steak on the barbie.

Andrew Hellmich: In that order.

Jerry Ghionis: So that when I finished this podcast, the steak is ready. Now what she's done, and she didn't. She was told to put the steak on, dammit, half an hour ago, but she didn't and but I love her to death anyway. But what I'm saying is this, I think that many of us, like I said to you, that you know, we feel like we've got, if we can work our asses off to get to the next position, and you do, there's no question. But would I say to have a bit more balance and to give yourself a bit of a balance in what you do? That's where I believe I went wrong. Anything else, I think that's probably my biggest mistake. Everything else, I think was very successful for me, and I was very happy with how my career had evolved and has evolved. But yeah, I just, I've got more clarity now. I guess is the thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, this beauty of hindsight, isn't it?

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, well, you know it's, it's easy after the fact it's always is, right

Andrew Hellmich: For sure. I'm going to skip a couple of questions, because I know we're on a time limit here. Where do you see wedding and portrait photography in five years' time?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, before you, before I answer that question, it's okay now, because the steak is leaving on the bottom, I've got like, 10 more minutes easy.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, great.

Jerry Ghionis: Where do I see photography going?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Jerry Ghionis: Look, it's, I don't want to be discouraging, but it's going down big time. It is going down like a like a freaking rocket.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry, when you say down in what way? The value of photography or the quality?

Jerry Ghionis: There's more, well, it depends on which way you're asking me, I guess. But when I say down, I think that as digital technology improves even more than it already has, which is quite incredible, I think it's going to be harder to differentiate ourselves from, you know, the person who happens to be holding a camera, you know, there's more, there'll be more disrespect given to us. Because, you know, just when we thought that wedding photography was given a lot of respect, because we're always considered the ass end of the professional photography world, and just when that started to get really good, now it's like, "Well, anyone could be a photographer." So that's just going to be become more prevalent. I mean, you know, soon you'll, you know, you'll have, unless it has done already, which I don't know about, but soon you'll be able to just press a button on your camera and it literally posts straight to Facebook, straight to Instagram, straight to all those things. There'll be, you know, very easy, you know, wireless network, shoot to the clouds. There's all these different things that will happen that we all know is going to happen, and to what extent. So you know, the shoot and burn, that the do it yourself bride, is going to be more prevalent. I think, though, that there is, though, and I say this, there will always be a need for a quality photographer who knows their craft and who can produce a quality, tangible, physical album that people will pay money for. I do believe there's a market for that the same way there's a market for Chanel and Louis Vuitton and Hermes in a recession, there'll be those people. I don't think there's an, there's a lot of those people. I think, though, that if we all got together, we all looked after each other, and we all educated each other. It could change. Will it happen? I don't think it will. You know, I've been on the road now for 12-13 years, and I've seen lots of things come and go, and I'd like to think that I've been a positive influence in the industry. But, you know, there's other people like me, of course, as well. There's, there's a lot of people out there, but it's tough, man. I think that those who are going to do it, if you're going to do it, do it properly, learn your craft. Know the difference between good, bad and ugly, and value yourself. You know, value what you do, because what we do can change the world, and it has, you know, like, think about it. I was talking to a bride the other day, actually, this is just before she booked me. I said to her, "Imagine the world without photography. Imagine anything that was shot through a lens did not exist. No movies, no TV, you know, no music videos, no billboards, no magazines, nothing. I mean, we would be living in an emotional third world country", and it really made her understood the value of what we do, among other things that I told them.

Andrew Hellmich: That's true, isn't it?

Jerry Ghionis: Hmm

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, well. I don't know what that says to the up and comers. I mean, it really just, I guess you're saying, just learn the craft. Be good at what you do.

Jerry Ghionis: I'm saying work your ass off. Like here, I don't see anyone working their ass off. What I see is people who happen to be have, hold the camera. They take a pretty picture, they put it on Facebook, they get 300 likes, and all they think, they think now they're really good at photography. They shoot that next friend's wedding, and then what they do is they run a business without being developed themselves. Now, did many of us start off like that? I think many of us did. I think that the difference between you say my generation, and I sound a bit old to you, but the difference between my generation is that we carry bags for two years before we photograph a single image. That's the difference. I can honestly say to you, you ask 50 new photographers in a room, how many times did you go on to a wedding before you shot your first one professionally? And I'm telling you, most would say not one. And that's the problem. It's like, imagine this. Imagine, right? You go to a gym, you've barely worked out once, and you expect muscles, and then you say, "Oh, screw it. This is all too hard." Then someone offers you a job to be a personal trainer, right? And then you become a personal trainer, and then you're overweight, there's no definition. You're unhealthy, and now you're actually doing this for other people, as in, whether it's in a teaching perspective or whether it's in a photographic perspective. In photographing for people, you need to be developed yourself. You need to be a walking, living, breathing example of a true craftsman. And that way you'll have longevity, and that's what I'm talking about, because anyone can create a business with good marketing skills without being, without a good product. But if you want to be around for 20 years or 30 or 40 or whatever years, I'm telling you, you've got to know your shit, and there's no other way, way of saying it. You've got to know your craft and that way you can walk into a wedding, no matter what it is, and feel incredibly confident that you'll do a great job, they'll be happy. And you know, how rewarding is that, you know? Otherwise, that there's so many people I see at my workshops and in my seminars, and they tell me they've shot 10 weddings and I'm like, "I can't I really. I feel bad for your couple.", and I don't care whether you pay 200 bucks for the wedding. You know, I really feel bad that there's some people out there that, and I don't care what, this is the thing, guys, I've not those are listening out there. I don't really care about what you charge, because there's plenty people out there making great money that aren't charging much in many interest industries. I care though, that if Brad work is going out there in our industry, then that's giving us a bad name. And therefore, why would they hire a true professional who charges a lot of money? Why would they? Because this is what you're going to get from a professional, because the minute you charge something for something, what you do, you are considered a professional. And so work your ass off, and, you know, relentlessly and get some runs on the board. You know, go assistant a photographer, get out there, you know. Hold bags for a year before you pick up a single camera and take a picture and get to know how the photographer works, what they say, how they say it, how they articulate, what they do, how they finesse, and all those different things. So for those things, that's what I'd love to. I'd love to for, you know, you guys listening out there to really, you know, retake it seriously. Otherwise, you'll be one of the very many that, sadly, I don't know about you, mate, Andrew, is that I don't know about you, but are you hearing lately, a lot of people on Facebook saying I've decided to stop photography and go, go get a real job?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I actually talked about one just on the last episode of the podcast. He was a great photographer, but went out of business.

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, yeah, so, but, you know, it's, but sometimes I even say that we, we don't have to run the business. This is the thing. Many people think they just have to own their own business. If you're a creative and that's all you are, and you don't have a head for business, go work for someone. You can still be a photographer. Don't, don't count that out as an option, because most people do. Go to a busy studio, put your hand up and say, "I'm happy to look after you and work for you. I'm not going nowhere. Pay me good and I'll stay." You know, I say, if you can get $1,000 to shoot a wedding for a photographer, and you shot 30 weddings, or 40 weddings a year. That's $40,000 for a one day work a week. How many photographers are making 30, $40,000 in this industry? Not many. You know what I'm saying?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's a great way to look at it.

Jerry Ghionis: Have the whole weekend freaking play video games or something I don't care, like, go to the gym. You know, become a personal trainer.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolute gold mate, it really is. How can my listeners find you and get involved and learn more about what you're teaching?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, look, there's, there's many, sort of many arms to our tentacles, to our octopus, so to speak. But probably the best way to learn more from us is, is my educational website, the Ice Society, and that's I-C-E Society. So we have a website, isoc.com, and from there you can basically join. And every single month we release new content of shooting with me at different weddings, porters, fashion, boudoir and different marketing tips and advice and different things. So thankfully, this year, we've had our five year birthday of teaching online. And obviously, you know, people may know that I invented the ice lights, which we also, we love, and it's a beautiful quality of light there as well. And there's some amazing projects that we're working on at the moment that you guys will know of in the next sort of, probably few months that are that's very, very exciting. So look out. Look out for some on Facebook as well. Please add me on the fan page. So if you go to jerryghionis.com Add me on Twitter. Add me on Facebook, and love to keep in contact with the audience, would be great.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll add links to all those different places. Mate, I know I didn't actually ask you about the ice light. Is that? Is it the same as a video light?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, yeah, a video light. I mean, many people as we know, a video light is a continuous light source. The ice light is a continuous light source. It's LED. It actually emulates window light beautifully. It has two qualities of light, because when you hold the light vertically, it's sharper and more specular. If you hold it horizontal, it's softer, it's dimmable. The battery is built in, and it's beautiful. And for those people out there who want to see more of the ice light, I've actually created a free photo sharing website that you can jump on for free. And if you own one, you love it, you can share images that you've taken with it. And if you don't, obviously just can be inspired by those images there. So it's called theiceculture.com, so theiceculture.com and it's a cool place in, like I said, people just share the images. You can see metadata, and you can ask comments and questions, and it's a great resource.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal, unreal. I know you said you got four or five projects going, and I know I'm going to let you go in 30 seconds. You're going to give me hint on one of those projects?

Jerry Ghionis: Well, all right, I will. You may know that, I will.

Andrew Hellmich: Thank you.

Jerry Ghionis: I will. Some of your listeners, and obviously yourself, you may know that we do pickpockets, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Jerry Ghionis: So pickpockets is basically like a deck of cards that relates to a facet of my work. And it's, it's, you know, I've had them now for several years, and I think since 2005-2006 and they've been amazing. You know, we've had 10 titles. We've had like, almost three print runs at the moment, and I released one of them as an app a while ago. And due to a lot of reasons and a lot of pushbacks and time constraints and all that kind of thing, we finally are going to release them all on the App Store and also for Android so, and it's going to be part of an umbrella app. So in other words, can you imagine, imagine a library of photographers with their titles within an app that will be released as well, the titles will be very affordable, literally, a handful of dollars per title, and the original title will be free. So you can actually see a sample of a handful of shots of every photographer's title. And I believe it'll be the staple for people to be, to have on their person for inspiration and education for a very long time. So that's, that's one of them.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Well, you let me know as soon as that's out, and we'll definitely promote it here on the podcast.

Jerry Ghionis: Thank you so much, man. I appreciate that.

Andrew Hellmich: Jerry, thanks for your time. I can't hear the steaks burning yet, but I'll let you go and enjoy that lunch.

Jerry Ghionis: Well, actually, no, like you will, but let me, let me just prove it to you. So you know, I'm not talking crap. Can you hear that?

Andrew Hellmich: I can. I can hear the sizzle.

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah. And now what she's done, she's made that the rookie mistake. She's made the rookie mistake of actually putting a steak close to the edge, which, as we know us men, that doesn't get the most amount of flames. So baby, I love you. You're awesome. I mean, literally, you can do no wrong, but until this moment..

Andrew Hellmich: We'll have to call the title of this podcast 'Cooking with Jerry.'

Jerry Ghionis: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, thanks again for your time. Jerry, I really appreciate it.

Jerry Ghionis: No worries, man. Be cool. Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay

Jerry Ghionis: Thanks guys, thanks, everyone!