010: Sally Sargood – Wedding and Portrait Photography Success Coach to the World

010: Sally Sargood – Wedding and Portrait Photography Success Coach to the World

Andrew Hellmich: Hi, Sally, welcome to the podcast.

Sally Sargood: Hi Andrew, thanks.

Andrew Hellmich: It's so good to have you on. I've been, I follow you through Instagram mostly, and I've always been around you at different seminars and workshops. Over the years, you seem to have been in the industry, or certainly, as long as me, probably longer, and I'd love to find out a little bit about that journey and also about what you're doing now. You're happy to talk about all that stuff?

Sally Sargood: Absolutely more than happy to help out.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. So, do you want to tell everyone what you're actually doing now?

Sally Sargood: Sure, at the moment, I'm actually, I've started my own consulting business. It's called ineedasally.com. The name mainly came about because over the years, particularly, actually through my time working with Jerry Ghionis, he would explain what I did with him within the business, and people would always say, "I need a Sally". And so I, it was a little bit of a joke initially, to register the domain name. But in the end, when I did decide to go down the path of doing consulting and helping others, their response to that name was very positive, so I actually went with it. So now I'm consulting, helping people in the industry, anything from photographers starting out, right through to suppliers and vendors, just using all the knowledge that I've gained over 23 years and helping others.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. So, when I said it, I was following you on Instagram, it looks to me like you're leading the most amazing lifestyle. You seem to be jet setting all over the place, mixing it with the top photographers around the world. And, you know, just living the dream, is that the way it really is?

Sally Sargood: I guess it is. That's always what I wanted to do, even when I began in the industry, working in the lab back when I was 18, I wanted to, to know the people I admired. I wanted to actually get inside their minds. I wanted to, to rub shoulders with them so some of their magic would rub up on me. And I love having my finger on the pulse. And that, that to me, is a worldwide thing. There's different things happening in America, in Europe, in Australia, and I think we can all learn from each other. So, part of it's just feeding that desire of mind to want to know what's going on everywhere. And part of it's just the need to want to share it with everyone as well. So I mean, it's fun, and if you can do it, why not?

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, I agree totally. It looks amazing. Look, I'm still, I'm still I'm just getting a little bit of funny noise coming through your mic Sal, can you..

Sally Sargood: Okay

Andrew Hellmich: Can you hold the microphone just off your scarf or off, I think it's rubbing against your clothing.

Sally Sargood: Yeah. Is that better?

Andrew Hellmich: That's perfect. That's great. So, let's talk about how you got to where you are now, because, like I said when I, when I ran into you at all the different seminars and workshops over the years, I didn't know you're an actual photographer. But following you on Instagram, it's easy to see that you're a super talented photographer. So, when did you first get into the industry, and when did you first pick up a camera?

Sally Sargood: I was actually, I think, 15 or 16 in high school, and I did my work experience at a photography studio in Wodonga. I wanted to be a photographer. I actually wanted to be a newspaper photographer, and was actually disappointed when I was placed in a wedding portrait studio. But very, sort of over that week or two that we had work experience, I came to enjoy the social side of it. And even after work experience, I continued to work part time in that studio, where I would work in the studio Saturday mornings, doing production work, and then I would assist at weddings in the afternoon. We did deadballs. They taught me studio lighting. So right from those late teenage years, I began learning about photography. Having said that, I actually wanted to be a retoucher. The more I learned about what was going on, I actually really enjoyed that was back in the days, mind you, before digital, when retouching was done with a paint brush. And I was fascinated by the process. So, once I'd finished my high school VCE, I actually had an interview with the lab that the studio were using in Melbourne, and the same day, I had a job interview at the lab. And I had two interviews at universities, one at RMIT and one at Bundoora. And the job interview was first, and although they actually didn't have any positions available, I finished that interview, and I decided that I wanted to work and I didn't want to go to university. I'd actually rather learn hands on and..

Andrew Hellmich: So, was that The Edge?

Sally Sargood: No, that was Nulab before The Edge.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, right, okay.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, it was, I mean, that was 1989.

Andrew Hellmich: So you had an interview with Michael Warsaw?

Sally Sargood: No, I actually had the interview with Wayne Padley.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you came back.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, it's way back. And I love the fact that, that I was 17 then, and Wayne interviewed me, and I still see Wayne to this day. And whenever I go into The Edge, I still catch up with him, so it's really nice to keep that contact from that long ago. But so, yeah, I think about two weeks later, he rang me and said he had a job as a printer. And I think four weeks after that, I started, so I was 17, moving from the country down to the city, and they put me on a printer that printed five-inch proofs of film. And for the first two years at Nulab, I actually was printing, and then went into customer service, and then went into a role of a client liaison, sort of dealing with the more sales and marketing side of things. So ,I was actually at Nulab for seven years.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so any regrets at that stage of not going back to uni or you were just entrenched in the photography industry and just loving it?

Sally Sargood: None at all. At the same time too, I think about 12 months in, not even maybe six months in, I, a friend who I'd met at the lab. He was assisting at weddings for Robert Piccoli Studio. So he took me along one night, they had training for assistance, and he took me along, and I thought that would be something I'd love to do. I adored Robert's work, and started assisting at the Piccoli studio on weekends as well. So I had the, I had, you know, the bonus of what was happening at the lab and learning and I think what I really enjoyed about working at the lab, particularly as a printer, was that I got to see so much photography. And because I was printing proofs as well, it was an entire wedding that I would see. So the work coming through inspired me a lot. I got to see who was doing what, and Roberts work, particularly with work that I really enjoyed. So I was very happy to be able to go and work part time at that studio as well assisting. And I think the most interesting thing during my time at Nulab was it was a time when digital was being introduced, so I got to see that whole transformation from a lab point. And that was, I think that was that was very concreting for me to learn it from that end, rather than from a photographer's end. I also found by working at the lab I, I had, I was enjoying learning so much about photography that it had put on hold my desire to be a photographer. And the more I even moved into customer service and marketing, the more I was learning again and marketing involved going to a lot of seminars and things like that. And so my path had shifted from being a photographer quite early to wanting to help photographers and learning as much as I could to help other people, and even my role as a client liaison was a lot of it was troubleshooting. A lot of it was actually helping photographers in their studios get to where they needed to be, helping them get their work through, to keep their customers happy. If they had problems at the lab, I was actually there to assist them in eliminating any of those problems. So I think a lot of that started out quite early.

Andrew Hellmich: So imagine you would have been pretty flat-out when, when digital sort of was introduced through that, through the industry?

Sally Sargood: Yeah, it was a learning curve for all of us. And the way that I remember digital being introduced, Nulab got a retouching machine, so digital, initially was a scanning and scanning and manipulating thing, as opposed to a shooting thing. So it was all about, you know, the ability to add clouds to a picture if you needed them and thing, and to actually be able to remove prices digitally, as opposed to with the paint brush. And once we all grew to accept that change, then they introduced the digital cameras, and scanning became more obsolete, and we started to shoot digitally and that kind of thing. And I do remember, like, if everybody involved, it was a learning curve, but we all worked together to make it work.

Andrew Hellmich: You mean the different labs or the lab and the photographers?

Sally Sargood: No, I think the lab and the photographers and the camera, camera manufacturers and the whole industry was sort of unsure about how to implement this change. But like I said, the, the outlook was very positive, and I do remember, though, we were at an AIPP conference when they first showed us a presentation of digital photography. And I'll never forget, I was sitting next to David Oliver, and David, you know, always has been such a purist, and they were showing us what digital photography would be able to do. David land across me said to me, "It'll never take off".

Andrew Hellmich: I can't wait to have him on the podcast and mention that to him.

Sally Sargood: I'll never forget, so and I still remind him of that too. But yeah, it was, it was such an interesting time to go through that and to sort of, and everybody embraced that change, I feel. Although it was kind of a slow shift, in the end, people started to sort of scan film to get used to it, and some people were quick to embrace it. And some people kept shooting film until they felt they kind of really had no choice, almost.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah.

Sally Sargood: But yeah, it was, it was a fun time.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I can imagine would have been. It would have been exciting, that's for sure. I mean, I came in, I mean, I made that transition, and I think I was, well, I was only really getting started then, and, I mean, I was happy to make the change, and I, gave us almost a head start on some of the guys that were more established, that were hanging on to the film days.

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So what happened with you then? So after seven years, you're at Nulab, when is it? What happens after seven years?

Sally Sargood: I, actually, I, I took a three month sabbatical to go and go to Perth actually. I, a lot of people were going overseas at the time, and I didn't want to go overseas and spend 12 months overseas, so I just decided to take three months off and live in another city. That's all I really wanted was to go and live in another city. And three months turned into 15 months in the end. And while I was in Perth, I started working with Tony Hewitt at his fabulous wedding and portrait studio in East Fremantle, which I loved and that was an interesting transition, even for me, to go from working in the lab to working in a studio and see how it worked from the other side of it all. And I actually remember even saying to Tony, I was doing some of his portrait sales back then, and I was struggling with selling a five by seven for $55 when I knew it only cost $3.50. And so I remember saying to him, "I don't think I can do your selling." And he said, "You don't have to sell. You just have to give advice, you know, give your opinion to the people." And I think about six months later, after spending time in the sales room and actually seeing the impact the photos had on the people and how precious they were to the parents and the family and everything, I remember a lady walked out with a couple of 20 by 24's and some 11 x 14 and a holly for eight by 10's. And she spent about $2,000 and I went upstairs and I said, "Tony, you got to put your prices up."

Andrew Hellmich: How things changed?

Sally Sargood: Yeah, so it's the ability to see the value in what was actually being produced had, you know, had a big impact as well. And I learned a lot from time and working in the studio. He's a great mentor. He's actually been a great friend and given me lots of great advice over the years. So that was a very educational, fun and interesting time that I had in Perth while I was there.

Andrew Hellmich: So did he actually hire you for a customer service and sales role, or were you going to be shooting?

Sally Sargood: No, that was as a studio manager kind of role, yeah, not, not as a photographer, again, that I, kind of had put all of that on hold, and having said that, I was shooting, I think it was actually probably might have been when I came back from Perth, I did start shooting weddings.

Andrew Hellmich: For yourself?

Sally Sargood: Actually, for other photographers. There were a couple of photographers in Melbourne who, you know, were booked on certain weekends, and had asked if I wanted to shoot weddings for them, which I agreed to. And I mean, that's probably only a handful of weddings that I did like that. And the reason I steered away from that in the end, was I photographed a big Greek wedding. I was probably only early 20s and..

Andrew Hellmich: Scary?

Sally Sargood: Well, it wasn't actually. I didn't go into it scared at all. I didn't think about the fact that it was a big Greek wedding or anything like that. I thought, you know, I actually knew I could handle it. The thing was, is that, and this is gonna sound really strange. I, it was the first hot day coming out of winter that we'd had, and I stupidly wore a dress, and it, it was a long dress, and it buttoned up. And I, I had, I did a really great job shooting the wedding. The family photos, I found very stressful because I'm not tall, and I was a young female, and I was trying to direct all of these family members, and that can be tiring. And there were so many family groups that it was, you know, quite exhausting, but I got through that. That was not a problem. But I do remember I was squatting down to do a wide shot with these palm trees, and as I stood up, the buttons on my dress popped. And I had to get safety pins and did them up. And I got to the reception and fixed it all up. And I, luckily, we had a lot of time. So, I had time. We actually had time to stop for coffee and things like that, so it was all good. But I remember driving home and I had a splitting headache, splitting headache, and I thought to myself in the end, "Why am I doing this? Why am I putting myself under all this pressure and all this stress?" And I, I actually, I didn't find it enjoyable, and I think that was just the pressure I was putting on myself. I did photograph a wedding last year. I photographed my cousin's wedding, and loved every minute of it. And that's probably just come with wisdom and age ,I think.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's funny that you say that you did enjoy it, because I think a lot of photographers, when they start they don't enjoy it, but they feel like they have to make themselves enjoy it, rather than finding another way to enjoy their photography, or..

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Another business idea, you know, you don't. It's not for everyone, is it?

Sally Sargood: It's not, and it for me, it was purely that, it was purely that I didn't feel good at the end of it. And again, if the photographer, I still see her and she still comments and says, "The couple was so happy, you did such a great job." But for me, it was just a feeling at the end that I didn't want to have again. And it was different to the feeling that I got from helping other people. So I think when I compared the two, it made me realize that if I, that perhaps wasn't the path that I was ready to go down right now.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Sally Sargood: And I personally don't. I think that it's good to be able to make that choice, because you do have to, you do have to enjoy it, because you know that rubs off on your clients the whole experience.

Andrew Hellmich: Certainly.

Sally Sargood: But, and in the end, too, if that's going to be the main source of your income, you do want to be able to make that enjoyable. So, yes, I did dabble in weddings. I then, I guess I was second shooter for a friend of mine as well. She started shooting weddings, that was again when the film days, she'd shoot color and I'd shoot candid, black and white, because I guess I'm more of a documentary photographer then, than an instructor, I'm not so much. I can direct people without a problem, but I just, I really enjoy documenting. Again, though, having said that when I shot my last wedding, I surprised myself as to how I shot it, but some, I enjoyed the days where I didn't have, she gave me five rolls of black and white film, and I had to take the candid, and that was perfect for me, so..

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds nice.

Sally Sargood: Yeah. So, I, I the whole time, I guess that I was doing this work through the labs and at the studio, I did keep my eye in with photography and still do.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Sally Sargood: it's, it's because that is, I mean, that's the entire reason that I started doing what I do. Having said that, it doesn't mean that it has to be my main source of income, but I can still work within the industry.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Let me take you back one second. You said, or a couple of minutes, you said, there, "When you're shooting the family photos of the big Greek wedding, you said you were short, which made it difficult?" So, is that, because they were being like, you were getting bossed around, you didn't have that, you know, that, that tall sort of presence?

Sally Sargood: Well, it was more, I think it's more that for me, I was in my, I think I was about 24 and I felt like a little girl.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay.

Sally Sargood: Um.

Andrew Hellmich: Because of the way, it was your own perception, or that's the way you just felt, because it was overwhelming; was a big group. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Sally Sargood: No, I think it was more, more my own perception than what was happening. But again, I think it came down to experience and wisdom. I felt that I believe more than they thought that, if that makes sense.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it does totally. Yeah.

Sally Sargood: Yeah. I and, and two, I mean, you spend 45 minutes, and I say yelling at people, and I don't mean yelling at people, but directing people in large groups who really aren't taking much notice of you. And I think that's probably what it is, as much as that I felt like because I was a young, short girl, people weren't noticing me as much as if I was, you know, a tall man yelling.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, for sure.

Sally Sargood: But yeah, I, that was just a bit daunting for me. But again, I, you know, part of I think what comes with a lot of this too, is just persistence. And I know if I had have kept doing it, that I would have overcome that within six months.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, like I said, "No need to though, because you're doing all the other things, and you stay."

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: In the industry, doing what you love in and..

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Getting a better feeling from it.

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're back in Melbourne, you're shooting for some friends and doing, doing bits and pieces. Then what's the next sort of part of the journey?

Sally Sargood: The next thing I did was, when I came back to Melbourne, The Edge was just starting up, The Edge Photo Imaging, and they literally had just more or less opened the doors. They'd got all their machines and staff in place to print. They were ready then to get some business in the door. So they employed me, more or less, with that role, to, you know, to bring the customers in and look after the customers and get business happening.

Andrew Hellmich: So Sally, did you know someone at, starting The Edge?

Sally Sargood: Yes, Wayne. Wayne Hadley, who had interviewed me back at Nulab.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So did he, did he come after you, or did you? Did you go seeking out the job?

Sally Sargood: No, I think we were in contact still. Niels and Wayne started the lab together, and I'd worked with both of them at Nulab. They'd probably left Nulab while I was working in Perth, and they had started, they had decided to open up this new business. So because I knew what they were doing, and it was time for me to come home from Perth, it was kind of just a mutual conversation that we had, that I was coming home and I would need a job, and they needed someone to help them with the lab. So it was kind of just one of those things that fit in, and, and it was great. It was really good to watch that go from infancy to, and it was, it was set up as a boutique style lab. So again, it was, it was back in the, in the film. Film was still dominant then, and they wanted to offer clients this little extras, like if you wanted something special. It was very much a can do, "Yep, we can do that.", because we wanted to be a smaller lab. So it was, it was a different twist on things. And again, I think that was where the real kicking in of the digital photography started to happen where the digital cameras were more introduced and becoming more popular. So it was during more my time at the Edge that I started to see film drop off.

Andrew Hellmich: And how long were you there for?

Sally Sargood: Seven years. It seems to be the magic number.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So, and is it? So you're in a customer service role there, doing what you pretty much what you're doing at Nulab and at Tony Hewitt's?

Sally Sargood: Yeah, very much, very much, dealing with photographers. Having said that, again because it was a small lab, we all did a bit of everything. So if things were busy and they needed me to jump on a printer and print something I could do that, but mainly dealing with sales and customer service and that kind of stuff as well. So it and, you know, I think over the years, the seven years that I was there, the, it grew, we got to a staff of about, I think, 25 at one stage, and, you know, a great customer base and all that kind of stuff. So it was, it was really exciting to be involved in that. And, and again, a great learning curve to see the implementation of the digital photography coming in more and more. And how people handled it, I think was very, you know, very interesting too.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so I think that was around the time when I was getting going, because I knew your name was popping up there at The Edge. And then I'm pretty sure shortly after, well, after that seven years, you started working with Jerry full time. Is that right?

Sally Sargood: Yes, yeah, I went from The Edge to, actually, I went to, I started at XSiGHT. They needed a receptionist at XSiGHT Photography and Video. So, I started as a receptionist there. And so..

Andrew Hellmich: Hang on, hang on. You've got all this experience and so you applied for a receptionist job. Was that, did you have, was that because you'd seen some of his work coming through the lab, where you knew this was going to lead somewhere else?

Sally Sargood: Well, actually, Jerry wasn't a client at The Edge for a long time. I met Jerry, he did a studio, a seminar tour, and The Edge actually sponsored it, although he used a different lab. So, I got to go on this seminar tour, and got to know Jerry and he has such an interesting mind, an incredible drive, and he's such a, I mean, apart from a great friend, he's, he's great to be around. And so I liked his energy and his way of thinking, and we kept in touch again, as I said, although he wasn't a client at the time. Eventually he did become a client at The Edge. And it was soon after that, actually, that I went over to work for him. I started as a receptionist though at XSiGHT as a foot in the door. I actually, I looked at Jerry and what he was doing. He was starting to do more and more seminars. I could see he had a lot on his plate, and I decided, in my mind, he needed a personal assistant.

Andrew Hellmich: Not a receptionist.

Sally Sargood: No, but you got to start somewhere, don't you?

Andrew Hellmich: Definitely, that's awesome. So you obviously, you had it. You had that vision yourself. You knew this was going to lead to other things.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, yeah, and so..

Andrew Hellmich: And so how long did that take to, before you off the reception desk?

Sally Sargood: I can't remember. I think, I think I was on the reception desk.

Andrew Hellmich: A week?

Sally Sargood: No, no, probably 12 months.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, okay.

Sally Sargood: If not longer. But I mean, that was great too, because I'd seen Jerry do his seminars, and he'd say all the things that you know he would, he would say to people inquiring on the phone and in the sales when he was doing an inquiry face to face, little things that he would say to help book a client. And I'd sit back and listen and go here, right? You know, I couldn't comprehend that it would actually work. And so, I started as a receptionist, and so I was actually taking the phone calls and remembering all the things I'd heard Jerry say, I would start to say them, and they worked. And he was in London at the time doing seminars, and I would actually call him up in London and go, "Oh My God, Jerry, this really works." And I was fascinated. I really was. I was amazed that all of these things that I'd heard him say, it was really great to see it actually come to fruition before your eyes.

Andrew Hellmich: So were you skeptical when you actually heard him talking?

Sally Sargood: I was, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool.

Sally Sargood: Yeah. And I actually, not only that, I also thought "That I couldn't say that if it were me." And so that was the interesting part as well. You would be speaking to a client, and it's almost like a door would open and they would invite you to say one of, you know, these great things that Jerry did. And I'd sort of throw it out there, and all of a sudden this response had come back, and I'm like, "Wow, that worked."

Andrew Hellmich: And just like the script.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, exactly. And he had a manual that, you know, was all the things to say and everything and, and it was exactly that. And like I said, it did work. He talks a lot about often booking people on the spot. And my very first face to face inquiry, I booked them on the spot.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome.

Sally Sargood: And, and so it was, it, that too, even though, you know that role as a receptionist was more than just a receptionist, and I learned equally as much from that, that experience as I did, sort of, you know, working with Jerry as his personal assistant, I'm glad I actually did start as a receptionist.

Andrew Hellmich: Because you got to see how the whole thing worked from the ground up?

Sally Sargood: Yeah. And I mean, really, in a studio, that point of contact with the client. You know, XSiGHT was a big studio. There were, I think, probably four photographers at the time, and there was video as well. So, my role was that first point of contact for all customers to come in. Now even then, we know moving to a boutique studio with Jerry, where it was just sort of a smaller group, which is him shooting. Having had that contact with the customers was invaluable, because it is so important that first point of contact. So, it was good to have started in that position.

Andrew Hellmich: So let me guess. How long did you stay with Jerry for? Was it seven years?

Sally Sargood: I got to six.

Andrew Hellmich: Did you want to hang on for another 12 months?

Sally Sargood: I wish I could have but, yeah, no, I got to six years with Jerry. But I mean, and same thing again, I think I've been very lucky with all the jobs that I've had that they've, they've all grown like I said, we started at XSiGHT and during that time working there, and I think I pretty much got into the role of being Jerry's assistant by that point. He was doing more and more educational stuff. He was still trying to juggle, I think at the time, although he was only in Australia, maybe six months a year, six or eight months a year, maybe he was still shooting 60 or 70 weddings and doing seminars and doing so many other things. So, he then stepped out of XSiGHT to set up Jerry Ghionis Photography, where he more or less, I guess, doubled his price and shot half the amount of weddings.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Sally Sargood: Lightening up that workload a lot, but, so that was a lot of then going from a big studio with, say, four photographers to a smaller boutique studio that was much more high-end and at the same time working on his educational products, his websites, and organizing all the workshops and seminars as well. So still everyday learning, you know, learning more and more about the industry and becoming involved in what was going on.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, I imagine that would have been a pretty exciting time to sort of going through that growth with Jerry and doing the traveling and the seminars and things. So why, why leave there after six years?

Sally Sargood: In the end, I found he was traveling more, and I was back in the studio more. I'm very much a people person, and found that I was spending a lot of time on my own in the studio, which wasn't really me. It didn't suit what I was all about. It took me a long time, you know, I hang on to it for a long time because the good, you know, the traveling and the amazing things about the job were incredible. But the six months of the year that it was just me in the studio, I actually probably even got to a little bit longer than that, was in the end where I kind of went, "This is actually isn't me", a little bit like the Greek wedding, you know. It, I just got to the point where I was sitting in front of the computer on my own for a whole day, and it just wasn't conducive to my personality.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. So, is that, is that when you hatch the idea for 'I Need a Sally'?

Sally Sargood: Well, to be honest, not really. My last hurrah with Jerry was at WPPI. After WPPI was when I officially left. And I took a month off to hang out in New York, as you do, to sort of think about what I was going to do next. And that, at that WPPI convention, I actually, people would say to me, "So what are you going to do next?" And I'd say, "I'm not sure. What do you think I should do?" And I'd actually put it out there, and everyone came back to me and said, "Well, you know, it's obvious, you need to, you should be consulting. You should be offering your services to photographers." And I guess by the time I came back from that trip in New York, I had then hatched the idea to start up I Need a Sally and start consulting for people.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you come back after your month off, you kick it off. How do you start getting clients?

Sally Sargood: Well, thankfully, I had a lot of friends in the industry, and I guess too, initially, Jerry still needed a Sally.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're one of these people that leave and then..

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Consult back to your old employer and charge double.

Sally Sargood: And The Edge needed a Sally too.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic.

Sally Sargood: So a lot of it, in the, you know, well, actually, probably the first 12 months was as much how I, you know, still did a little bit email marketing for Jerry and The Edge and just help with little jobs and projects here and there. I, then and I, and again, used the contacts I had. Tamara Lackey, she's a photographer in the US. She came out to Australia and wanted to do a seminar tour that was probably only six months after I'd started my business. And I actually organized that tour for her, the logistics and all the organization, organization of that. So then even going on tour with her, got me out there to talk to a lot of people about what I was doing. And I find it's always a case of when you can talk to people face to face, or any kind of engagement with people within the industry, just starting a conversation even, I think the fact that a lot of photographers are sole operators, many of us actually work on our own, that what so many of us need is just someone to talk to and advice. We can get so caught up, either in what our position are doing, or what what's going on In the industry, or what's not happening in the industry, or what the consumer is saying, that you can get confused, and sometimes it's good just to stop, and actually.. and I find it myself just working on my own, that, you know, I can be doing something on my website or anything, and I'd love to have someone to turn to and say, "What do you think," you know?

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Sally Sargood: And so, I think many photographers study that in, well, actually, even just in business in general, like to have that ability of someone to talk to, some advice to get, "Am I doing the right thing? Am I on the wrong path? Is this something I can be doing better."

Andrew Hellmich: So you say, you're saying that you basically then transition from seeing that these bigger clients, you know, like, is it Tamara?

Sally Sargood: Tamara.. yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry, Tamara and Jerry and The Edge, then you started seeing sort of more of the smaller operators?

Sally Sargood: I did, yeah, and I think it's still even a mix of both which I love, that I can actually at the moment, even some of my clients are just starting their businesses, wanting to, like from the very beginning. "How do I get clients? What should I charge?" That sort of thing. I've, some of what I do is project management. Like, for example, I set up The Edge to be a distributor for White House custom color, and they're press printed products in America, which I loved, and felt like it needed to be easier for Australians to be able to order those products. So, I spent probably six months working on that project as well, and it just seems to be the smaller studio consultations are often a two-hour Skype appointment. Sometimes it can be a full day in studio that I'm doing so it can sort of fit in. I allot my time to different things and can juggle different projects, which I really, I like that, it keeps the scope and the focus of what I'm doing a lot broader.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So what are some, I mean, generally speaking, what are some of the things you're seeing amongst the, I guess, the smaller photographers you know that the one-man bands that work from home or a small studio? What are you seeing as a trend that things are doing, people are doing wrong, or that they could make better?

Sally Sargood: Um, I think, well, I think part of it is a lot of people are, tend to be looking at what a lot of people are doing out there and trying a little bit of everything instead of actually listening to themselves. I've actually heard photographers say like someone was saying online one day "That you shouldn't put your prices on the internet." The very next day, someone else said that you should. And these people are going, "Oh my goodness, what are we meant to do? They just said that we should, and someone else said that we shouldn't. What are we supposed to, what are we supposed to do?" And I'm like, "You're supposed to do what you think is right." And I think a lot of people are just taking what they're being told is verbatim and then wondering why it's not working. And I think a lot of it is because it's actually not coming from within. It's almost like, it's funny, I watch The Voice, and I see when someone gets up on The Voice and just sings the song of another artist, like the other artist does, they don't go through they don't succeed. But when they get up and they sing the song with their own twist to it, or it actually comes from a deeper place from them, and they believe in it, and things like that. They're the ones that get through. And I think it's the same with the photography, that you really need to, you can't just regurgitate what other people are doing. You can't just copy what other people are doing. It's actually got to really suit you. You need to tailor-make something to suit who you are, what you want to do, why you're doing it, and all of these things and I don't know if it's an overload of information or if it's just a hunger for people to learn more, but I, you know, I'd like to see more people actually focus on their own particular style and their own particular business, instead of trying to do what everybody else is doing.

Andrew Hellmich: So, I'm not sure I'm getting this. Are you saying that you're talking about things like price lists or the style of shooting or logos or the way they set up their websites?

Sally Sargood: Well, I could say pretty much everything. A lot of it to a degree, the way they're shooting, yes, the way they run their business, their pricing, yes. It's if the guy down the road is doing it, a lot of people think that they should be doing it too, and then they're wondering why they're not getting any work. And at the end of the day, if we all offer the same thing, you know, it just makes it difficult for the consumer to choose. They don't know the difference between the two. I think even a lot of the time, you know, it's hard now for, a photographer needs to stand out from the Uncle Bob. And the more we can do that, the more it'll be easier for the public to notice the difference between a professional photographer and either just doing it themselves, or getting family to do it, or something like that. And I really think what you do needs to represent who you are from a shooting point of view, from your, your logo, your brand, the way you sell, it all needs to sort of fit in more and come, I think, from, from your personality. And I think clients will notice when it does, when it all gels, when your logo matches your personality and your shooting style, and it all fits in. Then it, there's just something subconsciously that makes sense, as opposed to when it's a mishmash and people feel like you're just sort of putting things together for the sake of it. But it takes time, I think, to develop that.

Andrew Hellmich: So as a consultant, then Sally, let's say, I mean, I'll use myself as an example here. Let's say you come into my studio and I say, "Look, you know, things are going okay, but I want to be better. I want to be charging $1,000 more than I am." But no one else is in my area, and the clients say that what I'm offering in my packages are the same as what other people, other photographers in the area are offering in theirs. So how can I put my prices up by another $1,000?

Sally Sargood: I think, and again, this is probably one of the major things. I think "You need to educate your client why you're different and why what you do is worth $1,000 more than what anyone else is doing."

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so how do I do that without sounding like "That's salesy."

Sally Sargood: Okay, you need to, you need to believe in yourself.

Andrew Hellmich: I do. I know I'm the best.

Sally Sargood: See you believe that what you do is a thousand dollars, worth a thousand dollars more than what the guy down the road is doing?

Andrew Hellmich: Damn right.

Sally Sargood: Okay, so why do you believe that, what is it about what you do that is better than what he's doing? And I would actually ask you to write that all down. Is it your experience in the industry? Is it the fact that you offer better service? Is it the fact that your work is just better? Whatever it is that you think is the reason that you're worth a thousand dollars more than the guy down the road, if you truly believe it, then you convey that to your client, you should be able to sell it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So when you say, convey it to my client, is that in a meeting, you know? Is that on the phone, is that on my website? Is that when they come in for an appointment, like, when do I start selling the fact that I'm better.

Sally Sargood: Well, okay, educating, not selling.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, when do I start educating?

Sally Sargood: The minute you think you're selling it, it's a different thing. You're educating them. I think all of the..

Andrew Hellmich: So Sally, sorry you just cut out there. Just after you told me that I shouldn't be selling. Or as soon as I believe that I'm selling, I'm going..

Sally Sargood: So, yeah, if I think you need to start with that, educating the client from the very beginning. And if it's the website they're going to, it needs to be conveyed on the website. And start educating them all of those things about you that makes you better, a $1,000 better. You put that on the website the way your website looks, needs to look more expensive. But at the end of the day, it's all of those things, the reasons why you are better. You can value it on the website. I find it's much easier to do it in conversation. So ,on the phone, when you're talking to the client and the inquiry again, it's the things that make you different, the things that make you stand out, the things that should make them spend $1,000 more. You need to tell them what they are. Same thing with the face-to-face consultation. Again, if they come into your studio and everything you know, the service they get is exceptional, and those reasons why you are better come across again. Then at the end of the day, if they can see that they're getting value for money, and they believe that you are that $1,000 better, they'll invest that money in you. And it's and it's even, I mean, like I said, it's educating, not selling. Everything that you say, if you actually believe it, your client will understand those reasons.

Andrew Hellmich: Uh-huh.

Sally Sargood: If you say it's because, you know, "You've had 20 years’ experience in the industry, if it rains on the wedding day, that's not a problem for us. You know, we've got some, we can deal with that. We've done plenty of weddings in the rain that's no worries", and just little things that will give them the confidence that by investing in you, and it's not spending, it's investing, that it's actually they will get their thousand dollars’ worth. And it will be a better investment for them than if they don't spend that money. I think too a lot of the time we focus too much on the dollar value and not on what we're giving them. I mean, it's, it's a constant that every, everyone says that the house burns down, what's the first thing that they grab? And it's their photos. And they can, you know, they don't blink about spending $3,000 on a big screen TV, yet they're worrying about spending another $1,000 on their wedding photos? And their wedding photos, it's not about today or tomorrow. Is not the reason they're spending money on their wedding photos. It's about 20-40-50 years’ time. It's an heirloom that they hand down to their, their children and their grandchildren. I mean, I'm, and if you can actually draw on personal experiences, I think that's even better. Like, I personally have two photos from my parents wedding, and what I wouldn't give, what I wouldn't pay to have a whole album. I wish they had an album. And I wish they'd actually invested the money to have an album so I can look at more than two photos from my mom and dad's wedding. And I think if you know, if you convey the importance of what we do again and educate your client, that you might understand, you know, perhaps money's tight and might have a new house and all this kind of thing, but it's an investment for the future, for their children and grandchildren, and you know, what's $1,000?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure. But the other argument then too, from them, you know, from a lot of clients these days, especially as well, you know, we're going to have them on disc, because just about every photographer now is supplying images on a disc, and the, and the standard argument is that, "Well, we'll get an album later. You know, we'll do it some other time. We've got the disc. We know we've, we have got the photos."

Sally Sargood: I, well, I mean, you've got to go with it. I think for a long time, a lot of people, especially us old fashioned people, resisted with the whole disc thing. I believe the key is to give them an incentive to get the album now. To offer the disc, I mean, I firmly believe in offering the disc at a price. And I could probably give you an example that's more suited to portraits than weddings.

Andrew Hellmich: What is?

Sally Sargood: But along the lines of, you know, what if your disc is $2,000 or $1,500 to buy the disc of high res images. But for every $500 you spend, you get $500 off the disc. So, if you invest in an album, we'll give you the disc. If you invest, you know, or you can buy the disc for this much but the more money you spend on prints, the more that we'll take off the disc. So ,it's, it's an incentive that, "Of course, we can give you the disc." Some people also actually don't even know why they want the disc. They only actually asking for a disc because they're told, you know, "You should ask for a disc." Some people just want to share it on Facebook or email it to their friends and things like that. So sometimes, perhaps even just offering a low res disc. What if they can come back in two years' time, after you finish the album, all that kind of stuff, and they can purchase the disc then? Isn't it better to get the album now and then maybe just get the disc later on? What if even we charge more for our talent and less for the prints. So, you know what if your, your wedding, you did it at, I don't know, four or $5,000 and that included the disc, but an album was maybe, you know, $800. So, it's, it's a case where you, it, I think it needs to be more enticing for them to want to get the album now.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I do agree. And I think once an album is out there in a client's hands, that becomes such a great sales tool for the, for the photographers, that was..

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: That was how we were getting more bookings than ever, was because of our albums that were out there. Now there's, there just seems to be less and less of that.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, and there is, and people are just sharing it. Like I said, "They're only sharing one or two photos instead of the entire story." I mean, because, again, that's what you're doing as a photographer, is you're actually telling the story of their wedding day, and it's much easier to share that story with others by, by looking at a photo album than just flicking through even, you know, the photos on Facebook or even a slideshow, you know. I think, I think all of these things need to come with prints or with an album. If, not only that, I mean, you probably also know that anyone who just takes the disc, the disc gets put in a drawer.

Andrew Hellmich: It's sad.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, yeah. And, and they would know themselves that. I mean, not only that, to get an album made up, even if they think they'll do their own book or they'll do their own album, it's not easy. The actual, there's an art in telling the story of your day and actually putting the photos together, sifting them out to know which one to tell a story better than others. If you give them a disc of even 800 images, and they need to choose from that 800 to make their own story book. It's not an easy task, and yet, you've had how many years of experience in actually designing these albums. And if you offer that service, I mean, if you know, even again, just pointing it out to them. I mean, I remember having clients who even purchased their disc years after their wedding, just so they can print their own photos to give to family. Actually, I think it was a lot of family in Greece that she wanted to send photos to, and she came back. Hers was quite a big wedding. And she came back, she bought the discs back and said, "This is too hard." She said, "I've got to choose each one that I want out of all these photos." And it's just too, she said, "I haven't got time for this. I'd rather you do it." And she actually bought it back because it is time consuming, and that's why people put it off. And in the end, that's not really fair to anyone. A lot of people are saying that at the moment, we're actually a generation of lost photographs.

Andrew Hellmich: Mm, I'd agree with that. So maybe, maybe it's a good idea for the photographers out there that are just giving away a disc with no album. It would be a good idea to chase up those clients in six months’ time or nine months’ time and send them a reminder email about having a having an album done.

Sally Sargood: Absolutely. I mean, I'd even, I'd be more inclined to give them that incentive now. You know, to when to give to offer the disc if they think that they have to do that to get the bookings and everything. Having said that, I, I don't think, again, I think it's you could easily educate your client that it's a better service for them to spend a little bit extra and get a book purely because they're not going to do it just and you can say to them, "I've seen it before." You know, "People put the disc in a drawer." What if it's cheaper now to get the album than it is in six months' time you know? What if it costs just the same, more or less, to get the album, you know, a good quality album, through you now, then to have to make their own book that might fall apart at the hinges and that sort of thing through a company that they might not know of, you know. A lot of the, we talk about these things as heirlooms, but you want to make sure they're of archival quality, that they're going to actually stay together. They're actually they're not going to fade. They're not going to do all of you know, the binding won't come apart, and if we as professional photographers convey that to our clients, and again, if it's a $1,000 more, I would tend to think that that's worth it.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure.

Sally Sargood: And again, I think we need to, part of the problem is that we need to believe that it's worth it. And I think if you believe it enough, you can easily educate your client, sell that to your client, that it is worth the money.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah. Can I, can I change tack slightly, Sally?

Sally Sargood: Sure.

Andrew Hellmich: Let's say you're going in to do a one of your consultations for a brand new business so that they were making the jump. Well, maybe they're working full time. They're going to go back to part time. They want to kick off this photography business and give it a go. How should someone like that set up their prices? Because they don't have that you know, that they don't have that experience. They don't have the big studio maybe to start with. So how do they separate themselves?

Sally Sargood: Well, I actually find, and it's understandable, there's a lot of people that when they start out, they start shooting for free because they're building their portfolio, so they're doing a lot of the shoots for free, but then it makes it difficult for them. A big question, I guess, how and when do I make the transition to start charging? And everyone's now used to me doing it for free, and it becomes a bigger thing to then suddenly start charging. So I actually think the very first thing you need to do is develop a price list, and if, and if you're building a portfolio, if you need practice one or two things, practice maybe on, on models or family to get you know, go out there and learn and practice as much as you can where it's not actually a client or a potential client, so to speak. If it's a potential client, I've actually said to some people to actually develop a price list, and if they feel that it's still portfolio building, make a little gift card that gives them 50% off, and maybe it's 50% off the sitting fee, or 50% off the print prices, and let your, let your client choose. That way you're educating them that there is actually a sitting fee, and you're actually educating them that these are my print prices, but I'll give you 50% off because I feel like I'm still building my portfolio by doing your sitting. So that then when other people perhaps come to them like, if you did that for one family or, you know, a session, I'm talking probably more about portraits than weddings now.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Sally Sargood: That with their friends come to, come to you and sort of say, "Well, you know, my friends got 50% off." You can turn around and say, "Well, I was just starting out then building my portfolio, but I'm really at a point now where I'm developing my business, and these are my prices." It just makes it that little bit easy. I'm a big believer is if someone doesn't want to pay the prices you have on your price list, you don't want to shoot it.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, quite right.

Sally Sargood: Because you, you end up just working a lot and not making any money. And a lot of people are doing that anyway, and it's particularly hard when you're starting out, I think because you gather confidence by shooting more, and the more customers booking you, the better you'll feel about your own business. So, a lot of the time, it's only natural to, to want to get as much of that in as you can. But 12 months later, I don't think you've done yourself much of a service as well. And I get it from a lot of people that they've got, I mean, some people actually come to me and said, "I'm shooting 150 to 200 portraits a year, but they're, they're not making any money." Not only is it actually they're working hard and not making any money, but they're actually not spending time with their family. So, it's a double-edged sword in that sense. If you're going to..

Sally Sargood: Why aren't they making any money if they're shooting that many portraits?

Sally Sargood: Because they're, part of the reason they're shooting that many portraits is because they're not charging very much.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Sally Sargood: And

Andrew Hellmich: So do you go in and say, "Look, double your prices and shoot half?"

Sally Sargood: More or less, yes, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Sally Sargood: Well, I do. I got a client in New York, and she came to me. She's got two kids. She was shooting 200 boudoir shoots a year out of her bedroom at home. And she was, I think her average was about four or $500. Now, that might sound great to many, but that's, that's a lot of work. That's for boudoir shoots in your bedroom a week, plus all the post production, plus all the sales, plus the time it takes away from your family. You know, she said, "I'm not, I’m just not making for the work I'm putting in, I'm not making any money." We actually ended up tripling our prices.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, overnight, just like that.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, to the, and she was great, because to the point where I think her session fee for a boudoir shoot, we made it about $450. She emailed me the next day and said, "I don't think it's enough." So even her whole mindset had changed. She knew what she was putting into it. Having said that, when the months to follow, she was sending me emails to update, and she said, "I just did a $1,200 sale. I'm thrilled." "I just did a $1,600 sale." And the beauty was, it was about 10 months later, she emailed me and said, "I just did a $5,800 sale." And if you add on the $500 sitting fee, I said to her, "You just gone from 600 to $6,000 in 12 months."

Andrew Hellmich: Amazing.

Sally Sargood: And she was, she was only shooting 90 to 100 portraits a year, but that left her more time with their family, and her income was more from it. She'd actually tripled her sales and half the amount of portraits she was doing.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect.

Sally Sargood: And it was a lot of things. It wasn't just her pricing. She also was just actually putting the, the proofs online, and she went to in-person sales, which I think makes a big difference as well.

Andrew Hellmich: So is that, am I right in saying that a lot of the Americans, a lot, a lot of the photographers in the States, are only coming over to face to face sales?

Sally Sargood: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, why is that? They must do a lot of, so it's all online, or it has been up until now?

Sally Sargood: Well, actually, no, no, no, not, not everyone. And I think you'd actually find that a lot of newbies here are the same, and a lot of it's similar to why people are asking for a disc. It's like, "Really, do we have to come back in? Can't you just put them online because we know it's possible?" And I think it was even more so in a studio in a place like New York, you know, it's like, "Really, I have to come in to see you again? Can't you just post them?" And, you know, to keep the customer happy, they'd say yes.

Andrew Hellmich: And never see a sale.

Sally Sargood: And never see a sale. And I think that to a degree, there's, you know, there's been some people here in Australia doing that, although we are quicker to embrace the in-person sales, because it's one tradition I think that's been going on for so long that has kept up in the industry. But, yeah, it makes a huge difference, purely from an educational point of view. Again, it's educating the client that you know. I mean, imagine if you wanted to get a book, and you had no one there to help you choose the photos to put in the book, or, you know, which ones you want to put on the wall. So..

Andrew Hellmich: We've sworn over and over again, never, ever to send a disc here, that the client has to come in. We've done it a few times, it just never works.

Sally Sargood: Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like, if for any reason, the client lives in the country or is in a different city and can't come in. You know, with Skype, you can do, you can share the screen.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Sally Sargood: There's so many different things that you can do and still run a program that assists with in-person sales, like ProSelect, which I think is fabulous. And, and actually run that on the screen and have the, have the sales consultation with your clients still, so that you can be there to help them, to choose and educate them. Like I said, it was those words of Tony Hewitt way back when I was in the studio. "You don't need to sell. You just need to give them advice." And I think that, that's, you know, that's always something that's stuck through with selling portraits.

Andrew Hellmich: That's true.

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Can I, can I throw one last scenario? Yeah, I know I'm keeping you now.

Sally Sargood: No, no, that's cool.

Andrew Hellmich: Let's say you're going to see another photographer. And this photography is established. They were, but they're struggling now. They're getting less bookings. So this opposite, I guess, to your New York client, where she had lots and lots of bookings, so she could triple her price. What I'm seeing is a lot of photographers, because they're getting less bookings, they tend to drop their prices, and they end up chasing their tail. Yeah, how do we get out of that? What would you advise?

Sally Sargood: I'd probably advise a similar thing you know..

Andrew Hellmich: That's scary now, because you, you know, my sole income is my photography, I'm getting less bookings. And you're saying, to double my prices?

Sally Sargood: Well, it…

Andrew Hellmich: I want to.

Sally Sargood: It doesn't even have to be double your prices. It has, at the end of the day, the thing, particularly with your pricing, is that you need to believe in your pricing, and that is ensuring that you're not charging too less, and you're not charging too much. You need to feel very comfortable with what you're charging, and I think that you can actually feel as bad about it if it's like, "I'm just not charging enough for this. It's not fair, but I have to do it to keep my business running." I don't think that's being true to yourself. I think that you really need to, if you feel you're worth more charge, then you need to charge that. And if that means, like I said, let's just use the figure $1,500 at the moment, it doesn't mean you have to go to 3000 maybe go to two, two and a half. You don't have to, have to double your prices, but increase it to what you think you're worth. And I mean, at the end of the day too, it depends how, if you had to lower your prices to the point where you're not making money, really is that what you want to do? Do you want to be doing this and not making any money out of it? I think the primary thing you need to do is make sure that you get earning a good living out of your business.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Sally Sargood: Now, I would say, and again I'd say, still, it comes back to educating a client the reasons why you would cost more and giving that, that sense of value to what you do, what is your point of difference? Why would you be more than the guy down the road? But I truly believe so much of it is believing in yourself and what you do, and believing in your worth, and educating your client to that, selling that to your client. It's I, I see people out there actually with weddings burning a disc for $1,500 and they think they're doing the right thing, because, well, at least I called it and color corrected it, and I'm now giving them the disc for $1,500 and I don't think that's doing your client a very good service at all, because in the years to come, you know, they've got a disc. I'd much rather have, you know, an album as well. You even only have to look at that. Did you see that British photographer on the TV recently and all over the internet who had cut their heads off, and like the couple was suing the photographer because they weren't happy?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, yes.

Sally Sargood: With what they got.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes.

Sally Sargood: And too often, this sort of thing is happening as well. How many brides have you heard with horror stories that you know "I booked my photography was $1,500 and again, I just keep using that figure."

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Sally Sargood: "But, you know, and I'm really not happy with it." You get what you pay for, you know? And if, if you can actually project that, and like I said, a lot of the time, is just believing that you're worth more and knowing that you can give them the guarantee of the professional service, the professional quality. These are your wedding photos, you know, I think instead, we're listening too much to the negative things and to, and a lot of it, I think, is even just blaming. We're blaming different, different things that are happening in the industry. And I think we can actually pick it up and turn it around if we all actually started, like I said, "To stop listening to what we think the client will pay and actually started believing in the worth of what we offer." And, and I think that would be the road I'd go down as and, you know, what's really interesting, I hear so many photographers actually say, wedding photographers establish studios. Say some people actually even put up their prices because they want to do less work. But they start booking more work. I had a client in Dallas. They've been in, they've had a studio for 15 years. They increased their price. They actually even then, made a top package price list that was almost unlimited, that was a, you know, a large amount. And they started booking people on that package as well. So a lot of the time, you know, it's, it's what we think a lot more than what our clients are thinking. So it's, it's just a matter of switching that around. I even actually had a client in Miami. She made a top package $12,000 and she said to me, "If I ever sell one of those, she said, I'm having a party." I saw her 12 months later, and she'd sold four.

Andrew Hellmich: Did you get invited?

Sally Sargood: Well, she hadn't even told me. I'm like, you're supposed to tell me when you did one, you sold four.

Andrew Hellmich: That's unbelievable.

Sally Sargood: So, yeah, it's just, you know, it's a matter of how you work it. That same client, actually, she's a really good example, because she fell sort of the whole thing too, about what am I going to do, everyone else is selling the disc. So she, let's say her, more or less, not really a shoot and burn, but kind of a shoot and burn package was $4,000 or you get album as well for 4,600.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay.

Sally Sargood: That's kind of like, well, what would you do if you were the couple?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so..

Sally Sargood: If you have an ala carte pricing structure, but make your packages so that the next package up is kind of really hard to resist, and that gives them the incentive of having the prints as well. I think that's a really good way to go about it also. So a lot of it is personal. A lot of it depends on the demographic that you're in, the, the your brand, the perception of your business, and all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, if you really wanted to make it happen, I think you can make it happen.

Andrew Hellmich: So I didn't want to ask any more questions. But do you still like this, do you still like the idea of, let's say, these clients that are off in the album for, say, a $600 upgrade, do you still like that idea of, say, having a 20 sided album and then upselling to a 30-40 sided album?

Sally Sargood: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Yep. So that still works.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I believe so.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Sally Sargood: Again, as long as you're educating the client that you're doing that.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure at the beginning of that first appointment.

Sally Sargood: Yes, definitely. As long as I understand that, that 600, I mean, actually, no, that's what she did. I just remember now the $4,000 included the disc plus a $200 credit towards an album.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Sally Sargood: The $4,600 one included the album.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Sally Sargood: And it was a 20 sided album. And, you know, I think more or less, with the first one, she could have spent an extra couple of $100 and got a coffee table book, whereas this one actually wasn't a nice press printed album or something like that. So again, too, you've got to look at the products that you offer to these different packages as well. But I'm a believer that, you know, you sort of say to them, it is a 20 sided album. And for some people, I mean, budget is an issue for a lot of people, and I'd much rather them have a 20 sided album than nothing.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, for sure.

Sally Sargood: And at the end of the day, it's but, you know, you tell them that 20 sides isn't much. And if they've got a full day wedding and a full reception, it's going to be difficult to put all of those photos into 20 pages, so be prepared to actually maybe invest more into more sides and things like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Uh huh

Sally Sargood: So, yeah, I would definitely always do that kind of stuff. You've got to sort of cater at the end of the day for everybody and everyone's needs.

Andrew Hellmich: So the big takeaway is to advise, not sell to our clients.

Sally Sargood: Educate.

Andrew Hellmich: So educate, educate, educate.

Sally Sargood: Educate, educate, educate.

Andrew Hellmich: I need some too, and we educate them to spend on their investment.

Sally Sargood: Yes, yes. Wait, because at the end of the day, I mean, you've got it, you, I believe that's what it is.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, me too. Oh look at, so sad when I see disc going out after a wedding. It's like, "Oh my goodness, what a show."

Sally Sargood: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: After all that.

Sally Sargood: I would draw on that personal issue, the reasons why you feel sad when it's, when you see a disc go out. You know, because that's the sort of thing your client needs to be educated on as well. And even things like the quality of, you take that disc to, you know, somewhere that's not a professional lab. I understand that, that it might not look good, you know, even to get something printed on the wall. And to be honest, I, when I worked in the studio, used to say that to people a lot, was that "You're going to take this to, you know, a big W or something, to get it printed. It's going to come out dark and say a green looking, or something like that." And you didn't want to put your name as a photographer to that print on the wall because it didn't look like you wanted it to look. You know, you don't want people saying, "Well, that's a Jerry Ghionis photo", if it's not printed to his standard. And I think that's a, that's a huge thing as photographers. I think we should want just to actually have control over the finished product that's going to hang on their wall and how it looks because, in the end, if it's not printed well, and it does look like crap, that's going to reflect on you.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure, for sure.

Sally Sargood: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: That is absolutely awesome. Thanks so much for giving out some of your time today. You got to tell everyone how they can find you, obviously on the web, and also your Instagram.

Sally Sargood: Oh, yeah, well, it's super easy, ineedasally.com is my consulting website, and I actually also have a travel website, which is, whereissally.com.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that right?

Sally Sargood: I do. My Instagram is simply sallysargood. Actually, I'm also on Twitter at sallysargood as well. So, and Instagram is a visual diary for me often of my travels, and which is also conveyed over to whereissally as well. Travel photography is actually my biggest passion in photography. I love documenting the places I visit and sharing them with my friends and family. That's actually one of my favorite things to do. But with the consulting I try to blog, I'm going to try to blog more so you'll actually see articles coming up on ineedasally.com where, you know, a lot of the things I constantly think of, I constantly get feedback from clients and people in the industry of what they're struggling with. And if there's anything that I can do to help that's sort of going to help on a general audience, I'll do that. Most of what I do with the consulting is very much tailor made to suit your specific needs. And we all have different needs. We're all at different levels in our businesses, in our photography, and that's why I find the one- on- one consulting a lot more beneficial than actually just giving a general consensus, because we're all in a different situation. So it's much better to do a tailor made kind of thing.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you go into do a consultation, you'll actually be looking at figures, numbers, bookings.

Sally Sargood: Yep.

Andrew Hellmich: The whole lot.

Sally Sargood: Yep, I always, I say that to all of my clients. "How many you know you're doing, weddings and portraits, how many you're doing?" "What's your average sale? What are your strengths and weaknesses", you know. And at the end of the day, with my consultations with photographers, the minute somebody actually books a session with me, I can see a difference already. The action of taking, the actual, making doing something to make a change.

Andrew Hellmich: Taking that first step.

Sally Sargood: Yep, it has, it has an impact immediately. And the, the wheels start ticking, and again, it's a little bit like your photography. The act of making an investment to, to make that change just puts the wheels in motion immediately. And it's, it's great to see that happen, and even after actually consulting with people, perhaps via Skype for a couple of hours, the relationship is maintained then over email, over quite a period of time, while people are implementing this as well. And just that whole, you know, once we'll start moving, momentum picks up and, and it's great to see the results. And, yeah, it's, it's a very rewarding part of what I do.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm sure you would be amazing, amazing at what you do, Sally, it's, it's been great following you on Instagram, and I'm going to put links to all the other places that people can find you, on the show notes.

Sally Sargood: Thank you so much.

Andrew Hellmich: And thanks so much for spending some time with us, Sal.

Sally Sargood: It's been fun.

Andrew Hellmich: Good. I'll talk to you soon.

Sally Sargood: Okay, thanks, Andrew.