023: Sonia & Padraic Deasy – The Secret To Portrait Photography Success is Know Your Numbers

023: Sonia & Padraic Deasy – The Secret To Portrait Photography Success is Know Your Numbers

Andrew Hellmich: All right, I'm really excited to have two photographers, or a photography partnership on the call today, all the way from Ireland, Sonia and Padraic from Deasy Photographic. Now, the interesting thing about these guys is they are working in a climate of a severe economic downturn. And the interesting thing as well is I've actually contacted a few photographers in that area to try and come on the show. I've either had no reply at all, and I even had one photographer say "Things are so bad here, I'm hoping to learn things from your podcast, rather than come on there and share what I know, because things are that tough." Now, today's guest, they are thriving. Now, not only are they thriving with their own business, they're actually teaching other photographers how they work and how to be successful when times are tough. So welcome to the show, Sonia and Padraic.

Padraic Deasy: Hi, Andrew.

Sonia Deasy: Hi Andrew. Thank you for having us.

Andrew Hellmich: It's a pleasure. Now, Padraic, am I saying that right?

Padraic Deasy: You're saying it perfect.

Andrew Hellmich: Now, do you want to give listeners a little bit of an idea about where you're based, and a little bit how your business is structured, what you guys do?

Sonia Deasy: Okay, so we are based in a small town outside of Dublin. So the population in our small town, which is called Newbridge in Kent Kildare, is just over 22,000. We specialize in portrait photography. So that is all we do. We don't shoot weddings, we don't shoot commercial photography. We only shoot portrait photography for family and children, that is it.

Padraic Deasy: And it's studio based portrait photography as well. So our catchment area is about 150,000 people, but we've got direct access to the Dublin market, which is a population base of about a million but our direct core market, which would account for about 40% of our business, is local business, which is the 22,000 people.

Sonia Deasy: Also, we're a second generation business. So we have, our studio has been here in the town of Newbridge for 30..

Padraic Deasy: since 1981

Sonia Deasy: 1981

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, we're also the studio is located in the heart of the thoroughbred racing industry. So the whole area surrounding the studio is a place called the Curragh, and we have some of the finest racehorse trainers and breeders in the world are located within this catchment area too. So it's a very beautiful area and with a real equine focus.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, so when you say, yeah, racehorse and thoroughbred, I'm thinking, lots of money. Is that the way it is there?

Sonia Deasy: No. Well, a lot of our, we have both. We have customers that have a lot of money, and we have every normal, everyday people that don't have a lot of money. So we get people, we get people that spend a lot of money with us, but we also get the type of customer that comes in to us, does our pre-planning session and decides, yes, they are the studio we want to go for, and we're going to save, and they might save for six months or a year, and then they will come into us eventually.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, wow. So I really want to get all right into the nitty gritty of how the business works and what you, what you can teach other photographers about how to succeed in that sort of climate. So can you just tell me with the setup for you guys, do you do any outdoor portraits? And is, are both of you shooting?

Sonia Deasy: We don't shoot any outdoor at all. Everything we do is studio based photography. So Padraic is the photographer, and I, I do all the sales and the business, and I'm the first point of contact with all of our clients.

Padraic Deasy: We've tried a lot of different models over the years, Andrew, where we've tried lifestyle based location portrait photography, and the climate in Ireland, it's just not conducive to shooting on location. It's very temperamental weather here, and you spend more time rescheduling appointments. So we wanted to build a business model around us and our family whereby we had a real sense of control on our diary, and the only way we could do that was by purely focusing on studio based portrait photography, because most other disciplines within photography just got in the way of us and our family, and we didn't want to be working late at night. And you know..

Sonia Deasy: We're shooting weddings on a Saturday, so the whole weekend is taken up, and you're home late. So really, we decided that studio based portrait photography was the best one for us, and also that is where Padraic's heart is in the studio.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, it's what it's what I do best and what I love best. But now that we have five children as well, and we've kind of built that business model around us, we really see the benefits of just being focused on the studio now, because I can leave here at 5:30 or six o'clock every evening, turn the key in the door, and not have to worry about being gone late on appointments, and we can live a very consistent life.

Andrew Hellmich: I know that all my listeners just hit the back 30 seconds a couple of times. Did you really say five kids?

Sonia Deasy: So we have, we are, we have five kids. Our eldest child is eight, and our baby is, she's going to be three now in September. So yeah, so we're very busy, and we understand.

Andrew Hellmich: So is there anyone else in the business, Sonia, or is it just the two of you?

Sonia Deasy: We have two employees. We full time production manager. He does all of our printing, framing and finishing, and we have a receptionist. Everything we do, we do all of our own printing and all of our own framing and finishing, because we only sell wall hanging portraits. That is all we sell. We don't sell any prints at all.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, I love it. I love that. This is, this is so unique and different to a lot of the stuff that we see here, especially from a family, sort of a business, and park, you say? You said that you sort of, you walk out the door at six o'clock. I mean, realistically, is that? Is that really what happens?

Padraic Deasy: Oh, yeah. No, that is realistic, yeah. Because my diary is so controlled here that we and it can be quite seasonal. So right now, the weather is really good in Ireland, and people are on holiday, so the studio gets quiet for these couple of weeks. So it means that we can manage things very well. So I'm actually taken a lot more time off over these last few weeks, which I can't do with other times of the year. So for example, Saturday is always our premium busy, busy day, and last Saturday was one of the first Saturdays I've taken off in a long time, because my kids are getting to the age now where they're starting to compete in sports and things, and I really kind of want to be around for that. So through using very good management systems and having a really good diary, we manage our days and our times and our appointments. And yeah, it's great. And we've streamlined our business to the point that we, you know, we know what our average sale is. We know what the average time is required to create that average sale, and we then just can limit the amount of sessions we're doing per week and keep focused on that higher average sale. So, yeah, it's great to be able to turn the key at six o'clock and go home to my family.

Padraic Deasy: That's nice. So the studio isn't connected to the house. It's a separate building?

Padraic Deasy: It's a separate building.

Andrew Hellmich: It's a high street.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, we're located in the center of our town, opposite the biggest retail shopping center outside of Dublin, and it's literally five minutes from our home.

Andrew Hellmich: You mentioned numbers, and I know that listeners are always very keen to hear some numbers, because I guess then they can place, you know, they can understand where your position in your market and compare themselves to you, and then, and then take that advice on board that you know that you're gonna give out about how you run your business. So how, or how many portraits do you shoot per week?

Padraic Deasy: We have two different key areas that we focus on. One is our high-end family photography, where we're looking for a higher average sale. So for that, we were averaging about six sessions a week, and we've a target average sale of one and a half thousands euros. But we also have a Simply Friday program that we run and that runs every Friday, and they're kind of limited half hour sessions, and they're only available for individual children from the ages of eight months up or sitting up independently. And we do six to eight sessions of those per week as well. And the average sale from those is 350 euros.

Sonia Deasy: That's Simply Friday program that Padraic is talking about is the program that we introduced when the downturn happened here. So we found we, you know, our portraits are overall was expensive. We put that's that, we pride ourselves on our printing. We print on Hannah Mullen museum grade paper. So we use the highest quality products to frame and finish our portraits. So our wall hanging portraits were always expensive. So I know, like Andrew, I don't know about over there, what the market is like, but I'm guessing that when listeners hear the 1500 euro, which is probably 2000 Australian dollars, two and a half Australian dollars, which is a high average sale, but that is our family portrait average sale. And we introduced the second line, which is Simply Friday for photographing individuals when the downturn happened, we discovered that we were saying we were turning away too many people that they couldn't afford coming to us with our first child. Our entry price was too high. So..

Padraic Deasy: Because our entry price for product is 260 euros.

Sonia Deasy: That's our minimum spend.

Padraic Deasy: So somebody that wanted to just, somebody wanted to just have an individual child photographed the entry point was 260 euros, and it was too much of a put-off for a lot of people, so we created a different line of products for Simply Friday that's got a much lower cost of sale to us, and it's got a starting point to our customers, 125 euros. But what we find was, by having that lower price point, it got us a whole new customer base of people that were afraid to come into us because we had this reputation of you couldn't go into Deasy Photographic without spending a minimum of a thousand euros. And when the downturn happened, we had to try and get rid of that stigma. So it was a way of getting people through our doors. But what we found now that we're kind of four, nearly five years into this, what we find now is that having that slightly lower price point, it means people's barriers aren't up as much. And once they have had their session and they come back for their viewing, our average sale is actually higher now, at 350 euros than it would have been when we were shooting just as a la carte, where it was, entry price point of 260, or so.

Sonia Deasy: For an individual child.

Padraic Deasy: Individual child only. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So there's pretty specific guidelines for having that, that Simply Friday shoot.

Sonia Deasy: Absolutely, and that's the only way that that's the only way that it works. We have certain product range for a certain session type and by being consistent and sticking to our guns, "And this is what we do, and this is how we do", and being clear from the outset with our clients, everything we do, we do a pre-planning set, we do a planning session so nobody comes into our studio unless they've done a planning session first.

Padraic Deasy: And that was a key thing we introduced in January of 2009 when the downturn happened here, we wanted to introduce something that was going to distinguish us, or set us apart from any of our competitors in the Irish marketplace, because nobody was offering a planning session, and we were finding that people were suddenly questioning our prices, questioning our service, questioning everything.

Sonia Deasy: Well, they wanted to know, "What am I going to get if I spend 1500 euro?" Because you have to remember, Andrew, before this, people were coming in and we were getting, I mean, without ever having a pre-planning session or anything like that, they were spending between 4-5-6, 7000 Euro ago without even thinking about it. So it was crazy.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, when the downturn happened, then we discovered, okay, the way to go is we have to insist on a planning session. And we insist on a planning session, and it works every single time. We're upfront with our client, we're upfront with our pricing. Padraic knows before he goes into a session what that end result is going to be and what that client is eventually going to hang on their wall. And it also the clients understand that what they're going to get for the 1500 euro and they appreciate what we do, and they appreciate our professionalism,

Padraic Deasy: But we're also under really focused on our numbers. We understand our cost of sales, and we could see instantly when things started changing in our economy, what cuts we had to make. So we were prepared. We cut what we needed to cut, and we did it very fast. So we were able to keep, keep a profitable business without losing any money.

Andrew Hellmich: Let me cut in there. So when things were going good, and, you know, people were spending thousands without questioning anything, how, how long after the downturn, or how far into the downturn, did you realize that you have to make some changes. And what did you see as a sign? Did you just see less bums on seats or less turnover?

Padraic Deasy: What we started seeing straight away. It was September 2008, in 2008 we didn't we did numbers in this business that you can only dream about. And I remember, except we were on holidays in September. Oh, wait.

Sonia Deasy: And we're expecting a fourth. Remember what number I was expecting anyway.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm surprised you know what day of the week it is, Sonia.

Padraic Deasy: We were on holidays in Spain, the two of us, and I remember being stuck to CNN and CNBC just watching the financial crashes happening in America with the different banking institutions. And I kind of said," "Okay, a lot's going to change now. And we noticed by October and November, and things started changing a lot. And then by December, we were expecting a huge bumper Christmas, and it just didn't happen. And we said, "Okay, there's something major is going to happen." So instantly, by January and February, it was really by February, we said, "Okay, things are changed now."

Andrew Hellmich: What did you see? Did you see less bookings, or less spending?

Sonia Deasy: Less bookings and a drop in the spend.

Padraic Deasy: The average sale, dropped massively. And the numbers of sessions, but dropped as well. Now, because we were averaging

Sonia Deasy: At that time, we our average sale was three and a half 1000 euro.

Padraic Deasy: and we were doing 50 to 60 sessions a month.

Sonia Deasy: We were doing huge..

Padraic Deasy: Huge numbers, yeah.

Sonia Deasy: So in me, and at that stage also, we were doing those numbers, and we were doing that turnover with only two extra staff that we have now. So we, there was six people in total, including the two of us, and now there's four people, including us. So we just, because we knew our numbers, we knew ,we, Padraic actually studied under Anne Monteith. I don't know if you're aware of PPA, the benchmarking system.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm aware of PPA, but not the benchmarking system.

Padraic Deasy: In 2008 I'd spent a lot of time in America studying with a lady called Anne Monteith, and she does an amazing gorilla management workshop, where it teaches you really to focus on cost of sales, your general expenses and your net profits, and just the breakdown of that within your business. So we were lucky in that we knew how we could make our products more profitable. We knew which are our most profitable products, but we had also said about streamlining everything in 2008, so we had a very profitable product range, and we knew the key areas that we needed to cut. And they are, unfortunately, were two staff members.

Andrew Hellmich: So huge expense.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, they were a huge expense. So what we had also said about in 2008 we had said about streamlining our business to the point that, you know, it's really, really streamlined, like, as I said earlier, I'm gone by six o'clock in the evening.

Sonia Deasy: And I also, I work from, I drop our children to school, and then I collect them at three o'clock. So I work from Tuesday to Friday, from 9:30 to three, and I work all day on Saturday, so.

Andrew Hellmich: So you run a tight ship.

Sonia Deasy: Yes.

Padraic Deasy: It's really special. Yeah.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Can you give me an example of a product that's not profitable or wasn't profitable after the downturn, and then an example of a product that is more profitable?

Padraic Deasy: Well, a lot of products that we, there's a good story around how we got to the point of really streamlining our products as well, because Sonia joined this business in 2006 and at the same time, we bought my parents out. We bought their share out of the business, and we bought the property in the building from them, which was in the peak as well.

Sonia Deasy: At that time, Padraic's parents were working in the business. As I said already, it's a second generation business from his side of the family.

Padraic Deasy: So you joined the business 2006 and at that stage, we had a price list that was about six pages long. We had like 10 different frame options and portrait and landscape versions. And it was just..

Sonia Deasy: So when I first started here, Andrew, my job was I always knew was selling. So Padraic brought me upstairs to the viewing room, sat me down and said, "Now here's the price list." So I picked up the price list and asked him, "Okay, you read that price list back to me?" So he read the first page, and then he turned it on to the second page, and he looked at me and said, "This our price list." And I said, "Yeah, that's your price list." And he said, "How are the girls selling from this?" And I said, "I don't know Pad, but I am not selling from that." So I ripped it up, threw it in the bin and said, "You don't even understand your price list. How do you expect me to understand your price list?"

Padraic Deasy: So we said about simplifying it. So what we did was we focused on we actually went out and we bought a square digital back so we could capture all of our images square, which straightaway got rid of portrait and landscape versions, and then we got rid of all of our frames, and we just settled on two different frame types, a black one and a white one.

Andrew Hellmich: Is this the way you're working now? So everything's shot square?

Sonia Deasy: Yeah

Padraic Deasy: Everything's shot square. And all of our products are square, except for one panoramic shape. But we also had albums and prints and different things. We got rid of all of our albums, because when you start looking at the cost of sale of an album, it's the labor cost is the expensive part of everything, and the amount of labor that was required to produce even 18 to 20 images that go into an album, the cost of sales skyrockets. So that was a product that we just scrapped straight away. Equally prints, because again, the time goes into retouching an image. It's a labor cost time and it's just not a profitable product for us either. So we got rid of any print sales, and we don't sell digital files, so they're not a product that we offer unless it's for a commercial headshot for a client. But that's the only exception.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, you've got, you've got everyone's head spinning at the moment. You just said a whole bunch of things there. People ask him about that. So hang on now, do you shoot color and black and white or just black and white?

Sonia Deasy: No, we have three styles. This is, this is kind of the basis of everything we do starts from our three styles of portrait photography. So our first style is our contemporary style, which is shot on the high key white background. The second style is our classic style, which is the dark background. And then our third style is our signature style, which is the only style we do available in color. So the contemporary and classic is only available in black and white, and the signature is only available in color. So that's really, that's the crux and the basis of everything we do. So once somebody understands that, then you can, we can, you can move on to the next phase, which is the product range.

Padraic Deasy: That's really helped us streamline our business as well, Andrew, in that when I go into a session in studio, Sonia touched on this earlier, when I go into a session in the studio, I know what style I'm shooting for. I know the client is going to be dressed appropriately, and I know whether to going with an a la carte picture. So either an individual framed image or a grouping of a collection of framed images.

Andrew Hellmich: Have you actually done the sale? Have you almost done the sale, even at that pre-planning session?

Sonia Deasy: Yeah. So we, we don't, a lot of people shoot to sell. So I suppose we, I sell first, and then he shoots. And that's the way we work.

Andrew Hellmich: Literally, sale, you have a budget and a style and a size.

Sonia Deasy: Literally, no, he knows walking it in. He knows before he walks into that, that into his studio this customer is going for, say, our collection, which is urban elegance, a single panoramic flanked by a 12 by 12 inch image on either side. He knows exactly that. That is what I'm shooting for, and I need to get those three images.

Padraic Deasy: So we don't engage in a thing called speculative shooting, whereby we're going in and we're trying different combinations of family groups. We have pre-committed to shooting specific groups inside of the immediate family, maybe the mom and dad and maybe their children. So we don't go in and try anything else, because they know the minimum they're going to be spending for an extra image. They know how much.

Sonia Deasy: That's 260 or, but the other thing, I think, which is really important, in our business is you have to remember, like for me in the sales room, that when you're selling everything that you're showing them, it's an emotional sale. So the moment you start showing people something that they never really wanted, or they never, you know, discussed with you, maybe a Dad and son, or they find it very difficult to say no to that image, and then they feel obliged, and they feel, they kind of feel hard done by that. "You shot that, but I didn't really want it, but it's of me and my son, and I can't leave it behind. So the likelihood then is that okay, you're never really going to see those customers back again, and you'll get a bad name. So we don't do any of that.

Padraic Deasy: We try not to engage in pressure sales.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, everything is upfront.

Padraic Deasy: Because when they come back to the viewing then Andrew, they're just, their barriers are down. They're completely relaxed. They know they've gotten comfortable with a particular price point at home, not in the viewing room, and you know, you're building on that long term relationship with the customer, and that's how we can get a very strong referral based business, and how we've built long term relationships with our clients.

Andrew Hellmich: But then, don't you struggle then, Sonia, with doing an emotional sale, if they haven't actually seen the images yet, you're doing a sale on spec?

Sonia Deasy: No, because I'm showing them absolutely the opposite, because I'm showing them these images that have lived up to all of the expectations I've told them. I've told them in the planning session, you know, Padraic will make you look the best that you can possibly look. Wait till you see the slideshow of images, all of our, we heavily edit all of our images. So in the slideshow, we're only showing the very, very best. All of the images are pre-retouched. So normally, the client is not seeing more than 12 to 14 images. That's all we're showing them, but we're showing them 14 absolutely jaw dropping images.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. Now look, I tell it, but at your planning session, you're talking about doing a, you might do a sale of, say, a 1500 euro sale. Padraic knows exactly what he's shooting, but at that stage, they're committing to, say 1500 euro before even seeing their own images.

Sonia Deasy: Yes, but we have a guarantee. So I would say to all of our clients, "We have a guarantee. If you don't like your images, we will reshoot your session. If you don't like your framed and finished portraits, I will give you all of your money back", and that's our guaranteed. So if somebody's committing absolutely to spending 1500 euro, they want to know what if I don't like you? You either, no, I'm not, but absolutely. How many times has that happened in here? It's never happened because we're, we're, you know..

Padraic Deasy: See, we've built, we spent, spent a long time working on our reputation, and when our clients contact us, generally speaking, 80% of our business is referral based. So if some it's kind of friends of customers or family members, and they've seen their work firsthand. We haven't had to do anything to sell the quality of what we do to our customers. It's our customers are doing that for us, and purely on the relationship that we've built with them and on the quality of our working in their homes, so they know if they're going to contact us, how much they're going to be spending.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, and also then Padraic, so for listeners, if they're wondering why I'm struggling with Padraic name, it's actually spelt P-A-D-R-A-I-C, That's right, isn't it?

Padraic Deasy: That's perfect. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So now, Padraic, you mentioned cost of sales a few times there. Now do you, are you aiming for a percentage for your cost of sales?

Padraic Deasy: Cost of Sales guideline for a retail studio is 30% but we actually, depending on our products. Some of our products are actually as low as 16% which is exceptionally low and we kind of, when we started working at our pricing, we were working on the guideline of the 30% but we discovered by streamlining things as much as we have, by only offering two frame types, by, you know, having very distinctive styles within our photography means we can cut back on the amount of time that's spent in editing, and we've really streamlined it as much as it can be. So some of the products that are in around the 16 to 22% cost of sale, they're specifically at that cost of sale, and we push those particular products. So when you look at our price list, these are kind of featured products.

Sonia Deasy: They're the most profitable products are priceless or will always be in the middle of our price list.

Andrew Hellmich: So the middle option.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, so I and also, for me, when I'm selling, I know what my most profitable collection is. That's the collection I push. I know what my most profitable A La Carte size is and that's what I push.

Andrew Hellmich: Now for listeners that aren't sure about cost of sales. You're saying that, say if a client is spending 1500 euro, if you've got a 30% cost of sale, it would actually then cost 500 euro to produce those prints or images or that collection.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, but the important thing that most people forget about in the cost of sales, you must include, it's not just the material costs, it's the labor cost involved in the production part. So if you're spending an hour, like for example, it takes us nine hours, 40 minutes to produce an average.

Sonia Deasy: His very exact.

Padraic Deasy: An average sale of one and a half thousand euros. Okay, we can break it down specifically into different areas, but the biggest expense to us is the editing time that's involved in it and the framing labor cost, so but it's what photographers kind of tend to look at is the print, the cost of the print, maybe the cost of the framing, maybe your storage media. So whether you're using a Raid server or it just, you know, standard backup CDs, or whatever you're using, they all carry a cost and to archiving and producing those particular images. But for us, again, it's back to the biggest cost for anyone is the labor cost. So sometimes it might not take you an hour to do an edit, but we kind of break it down into 15 minute segments, and then that is a multiple that you have to look at. So what you do is, depending on what the cost of sale works out at, and we tend to work in a multiple of about four, three to four, depending on the costs that are within your own business, your cost to sell.

Andrew Hellmich: Multiply that by three or four to give you a price?

Padraic Deasy: What you do, theoretically, what you do is you, once you've once you've determined what your cost of sales are for, the easiest way to do is break down your costs for a month, so any production related costs for a month within your studio, so your lab bills, anyone that's involved in production, so their monthly salary, and work out what percentage of your total sales that is for the month. So let's say, for example, you end up at 30% and you divide the 30% into 100 so it's, you know, it's roughly a multiple of three then, but your cost of sales be lower or higher, and whatever you divide it into is your multiple.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I'm a little bit confused.

Padraic Deasy: It's easier if we say, let's say it's 20. Say, let's say your cost of sale comes in at 25%, divide 25 into 100 and that's a multiple of four. So then what you do is, if you have a product that costs you, let's say, 25 euros to produce, you multiply that 25 euros by four, and you get your record, that retail price, which would be 25 by four. And what's that, a 100 euros?

Andrew Hellmich: A 100.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, that's your 100 euros, and that will cover your general expenses and your net profit and owner's compensation.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so if you're operating at that percentage, and if you can, if you can make that better, then you're going to be more profitable as a studio.

Padraic Deasy: I'm going to make more money. Yeah, so the percentages were balance out then, so you end up with a net profit, because the guideline for your general expenses is 40%, so 30% for your cost of sale, guideline for general expenses 40%, and that leaves a further 30% for the owner's compensation and net profit. They're all based on the PPA guidelines benchmarking program, which is, you know, I encourage all of your listeners to try and get their hands on it. It's on their website, and it's very informative, but it's a great benchmark for any studio just to see how you're performing against the top 500 performing studios in America.

Andrew Hellmich: Excellent. I'll put links to that in the show notes for this episode. Now, one other thing that you did mention there was the digital files or the digital negatives, and you said there's no question you don't give those away, or you don't sell those.

Padraic Deasy: No, because it's not a product that we actually sell.

Sonia Deasy: So it's really sorted out in the planning session. So any, all of those questions will come up in the session between myself and the client. So if they have any questions, then they'll be asked then, and they will be told that. But you have to remember, when you walk into our studio, all you see on our walls are wall framed portraits everywhere. That's all you see. You don't see any prints. You don't see any small pictures. They're all large enough wall frame portraits. So when a customer walks into us, it's very clear from the beginning what it is that we sell, and they kind of get a handle on it.

Padraic Deasy: So we don't sell frame CDs.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, Sonia, let me be the play the client for a minute. I'm just coming in to book my portrait session, and I'm happy to spend and commit to a $1,500 euro package. Surely I'm going to get my digital files with that. What do you say to me?

Sonia Deasy: Firstly, you have to understand, for us, we print and frame and finish everything. So we're printing your images on a Hannah Muller museum grade paper, which has archival qualities for 100 to 200 years. That's part of our philosophy. We produce wall framed portraits that you can hand down to future generations. Okay? We don't. We're not in the business of selling digital files. So we and we have to protect the way our work is shown. So when I say to our client, you do understand the reason you're paying for what you get. You can see the quality of our work on our walls. They immediately say, "Yeah, absolutely." So you know, if I give you a file, what are you going to do? Go into the one hour lab and print it on some inkjet, you know, printer, you know, what is it that you want to do with them? Most of the time, customers, they don't really, they don't want the, they don't know what they want the digital file for. They just ask the question because they think they must ask it. So what we do is, once we offer a service where, say, if somebody's buying the average sale, which is 1500 that's a collection we sell called Urban Elegance. Those three images in that collection, we will put them up on our Facebook page and watermark them so their friends and family can see them there, if they want to have them like that, but we certainly don't..

Padraic Deasy: But there's, there's one other. We also give them a slideshow once we've gotten to our average sale, we give them a movie slideshow of the images.

Sonia Deasy: All the images can be seen in the slideshow. So the 12 or 13 images that I showed them in the viewing room, we put them on a slideshow disc, and they're presented really nicely. So they get to have that, now they can't print from that, but they..

Padraic Deasy: But we don't, we don't tell them they're getting that. That's just a gift from us that we give them.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, and is that something like Animoto, or something like that?

Padraic Deasy: Exactly. Yeah, we just use ProShow Producer. They've got an automated slideshow producer, and it's kind of like Animoto.

Sonia Deasy: But now, like most of my, in my planning session, people don't ask me for the digital file. It's very, it's actually like if I did 10 planning sessions in a week, maybe not, maybe one out of 20. Maybe one person might ask me, and it's normally, normally the men that ask. To be honest with you, I don't really have many dealings with men. It's mostly women that make those decisions. They come, it's mostly the women that come in for the planning session.

Padraic Deasy: We're spending a lot of time educating customers on the importance of framed wall hanging portraits that digital file, they kind of start to realize pretty quick that a digital image or digital file is not really something that they sell or something that they offer, because we put such emphasis on that finished kind of family heirloom, that it doesn't really come up that often, and I think it's just become a standard question within the industry. Photographers have kind of, and people just expect that they can get a digital file for because they can take them themselves, or do whatever, you know, and handing out digital files. It's not, we can't build a business model around selling digital files because, you know, yes, there's a low cost of sales. But again, remember, you still have to spend time retouching those images and shooting them that, you know, if we were to look for one and a half thousand euros for three digital files, people would laugh at us, but they're the kind of averages that we need to get to have a viable and sustainable business. Very difficult to build a business around just selling digital files.

Sonia Deasy: I always say to my clients, you know, with us, like I have five small children, though, the only images that end up on our wall at home are the ones where I've taken the time to bring my children into the studio, have their portraits taken. They're the ones that end up on my wall, the ones that I take, maybe on my own camera, on my iPhone or whatever. They don't end up on the wall. And women can relate to this, because a lot of mothers will come into me and say, "To have so many pictures on my hard drive, and no one ever gets to see them." And they understand that, but they understand how true this is. So most people can relate to that and say, "Thousands of pictures on my heart, and what am I ever going to do with them? No one ever has to see them."

Andrew Hellmich: I agree. So do you, do your competitors sell or give away the high res files?

Sonia Deasy: We don't know, because we don't really, this is our philosophy, that business is selling wall framed portraits to hand out to future generations, and we have to stick to that, and that's the core of our business. And the minute we start giving away or selling digital files. We have no business.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. I love your philosophy.

Padraic Deasy: But there are a lot of studios and photographers, they come and go, you know, being here since 1981 you know, every year, someone new opens up, but they're gone within 18 months, because they're doing exactly that. They're going in and they're just giving away digital files for, you know, next to nothing, and sometimes you're giving them away for free. So, you know, how can you build a business on that, you can't build a sustainable business.

Sonia Deasy: The other thing for us about digital files is, I mean, who you know, if I, if I sold something for 70 or something and they went away and printed it and framed it and finished it, there's no way that they could do a better job than we can here. I tell them, we're professional. We're professionals in black and white printing. Our printers are calibrated. We, you know, truly are artists.

Padraic Deasy: My background, Andrew, is, you know, being a second generation photographer. I grew up in the film days, and I grew up, I was dragged up in a dark room at once I conceived. So you know, black printing and color printing in the day was an art form, and it was something my heart was always in. And I really, truly understand good body black and white printing, and that's the kind of core photography as well. It was when we went from film to digital, you know, 11-12, years ago. It was a transition for a good 12 months for us, because we were struggling to, we were kind of early adopters, and it was a struggle to get the kind of neutral, high end black and white prints that we were always getting. But, you know, a year sort of that age, this technology improved and improved. So, but we still print on photo based papers, and we, you know, it's still about the high end black print for us.

Sonia Deasy: So the minute, if we, the minute we gave, if we ever did give out a digital file, we'd ruin our business and ruin our reputation, because it's no longer about that wall frame portrait hanging on your wall for future generations, because the likelihood is that whoever you give it out to. It is going to print it on cheap paper. It's going to look nasty. Then they're going to say, DC Photographic did that. But no, we didn't, because we would never give out something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: I was just going to say, I know I can see from there, with the website, your studio is high end, I can see the images are fantastic, that they're gorgeous.

Sonia Deasy: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: How did, how was the business affected when you brought in the Simply Friday packages, and how do the high-end customers react?

Sonia Deasy: Because it's a non-competing session type. So the high-end ones are family portraits, Simply Friday you can only have a Simply Friday session every Friday, it's a half hour session, and it's only for individual children from eight months plus or that are sitting up independently, so it's only individuals.

Padraic Deasy: So we actually found Andrew was our high-end clients were delighted that we'd introduce a new program because they don't wanted something whereby they could bring their children into us a lot more frequently and have them photographed on an annual basis, because they didn't want to be coming in and spending, you know, a thousand euros every time they're coming in to have their child photographed. Now, we had a new program for them, and they've all started creating kind of collection, their own collections on walls at home.

Sonia Deasy: So in Simply Friday, we've three sizes. The first size is 125, your second size is 150 and third size is 175, now it's a non-competing product range with our family photography product range, so it has a different look to it. It's single matted, and the frames are skinnier, and the sizes are different. They're smaller, so it's non-competing. And also, because it's non-competing in the session type, it's only for an individual, and that's why it works. So one thing that we never do is we never, ever discount our family portrait photography. So those high average sales, because that's our core business, and that's where we make our most money.

Andrew Hellmich: So if someone has two kids and they're coming in for this session, would that have two separate sessions?

Sonia Deasy: Yes

Sonia Deasy: Exactly yes.

Padraic Deasy: And we've got, we've gotten all the questions, "Why can't we have our two children together?" And you know, it only works because it's back to streamlining it, it'll only work. We can only make it efficient and a 30 minute session, if it's an individual child, and again, they have to be sitting up independently, because if they're, you know, they're younger than that, it's a longer session. It takes more time. So we've kind of streamlined the posing, the time that's required, the amount of images that we show, and the editing time that's involved in it, and then, like we've already discussed, the product range that's offered from it.

Sonia Deasy: But it also, it comes back to educating that customer. So it's my job to educate our clients. So I will explain to our clients that it takes longer to shoot two children together. "Can you appreciate that?" And they say, "Yeah, absolutely. I understand that fully." So they understand. And once you can explain to your clients the reasons why, then they will appreciate that and they will understand.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I think it's great. We do. I love it. It sounds like it's working fantastically.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Now, I normally have a segment with that 10 quick questions and 10 quick answers. Are you guys ready to tackle these?

Padraic Deasy: We'll try. We're a bit slow though.

Andrew Hellmich: You can, you can fight each other to answer, or you can take turns whatever. We can both answer 10 quick questions, 10 quick answers, 3-2-1, go! Canon or Nikon? Might not be either with you guys.

Padraic Deasy: Well, it's, it's half Canon, half Hasselblad .

Andrew Hellmich: Is the Canon for the Friday sessions?

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, it is. And for more contemporary family photography, where it's a lot more engaging and interactive, where the shoots are much faster and ..

Sonia Deasy: Handheld.

Padraic Deasy: Yes, it's handheld, then, because the classic style is very slow, controlled and much more engaging, and that's more suited to the medium format camera.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so with your medium format stuff, you're shooting on a tripod?

Padraic Deasy: It's on a camera stand, the camera can go up and down very easily from a low to a very, very high.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure. Another one for you, Padraic, favorite lens and why?

Padraic Deasy: One of my favorite lenses is the 210 millimeter on the Hasselblad, which would be about a 180 on a Canon or on a DSLR, and I use that lens predominantly with my signature style. The reason being, I love the compression that gives, and it also gives that real sense of connection with the customer or with the sitter in the image. And, yeah, mainly from the compression point of view.

Andrew Hellmich: And are you shooting everything in JPEG or RAW?

Padraic Deasy: RAW.

Andrew Hellmich: What's, I was going to ask, what's the biggest setback you've faced along the way through you, you know, through the business, but I'm guessing is going to be the financial downturn?

Padraic Deasy: Well, it was that but equally..

Sonia Deasy: You know, the financial downturn forces you to do to think outside of the box. So, like we have a, we have another business, which online business, see this photo..

Andrew Hellmich: What's the other business?

Sonia Deasy: It's an online photography business where we sell photographic accessories, and we sell folios and mats, and we sell, you know, boxes so and that force, that business came around through the downturn, through forcing us to do, to think outside of the box, and what else can we do? And it's and we ship all over the world.

Andrew Hellmich: So what's the name of that business? Sonia?

Sonia Deasy: So it's, it's seamlessphoto.com, S-E-A-M-L-E-S-S, photo.com, and we ship, we, you know, we ship into Australia as well. We ship everywhere.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. So that was, that all came about because you saw a drop in earnings, and you had to, you had a lifestyle that you wanted to sustain?

Sonia Deasy: Yes, exactly, exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: What's one thing you've done along the way where you can look back on and you think, yeah, that was a good decision. That was a big step forward.

Padraic Deasy: Sorry, Andrew, can we go back on the previous question?

Andrew Hellmich: Sure

Padraic Deasy: Actually, it was the question about kind of, you know, what were the major setbacks or challenges. You know, the economic downturn being one challenge. The other major challenge we face in this business that most people don't face is from the transition from one generation to the next. And that was, that was a really big, it was really tough time for everyone involved in our business, because, you know, the business comes to a point where someone either has to sit, take a back seat and someone else takes control. Or what was happening us was there was too many chiefs and too many people trying to control the business. So we had to, this was before Sonia came into the business. So, you know, before she could come in, we had to actually sit down and come to a final decision whereby we, my parents, could retire out of the business, and I could take it over or and they would continue to run this business, and I would go away and set up my own business. And you know those, when you family involved in in a small business like that, it's very challenging. It's very difficult, and, you know, it was quite an emotional time for everyone involved. But you know, we're really happy now that we've, you know, we're kind of a good few years gone beyond that, and my parents have created a different life for themselves now outside of this business, and we were very lucky that we were able to do it in a very positive way. So that was a major challenge for us all. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I think any family would struggle with that. Now, you got to tell me, does your mum and dad, are they still giving you advice on how to run the business?

Padraic Deasy: Oh, yeah, you know, they're well aware of the challenge that we're facing Ireland with our economy at the moment, and they're very much "Would you not try wedding photography again? Would you not try.." My dad "We used to do this.."

Sonia Deasy: I come from a self-employed background as well. So my parent, my dad, my parents would have been in business. My parents are older than Padraic's parents. So they're, my parents are retired, but both of us come from very similar backgrounds. So actually, in our town, New Bridge, my dad's business is around, was around the corner from Padraic's parent's business.

Padraic Deasy: She's actually my half-sister.

Sonia Deasy: No, so, so, yeah, we come from very, very similar self-employed backgrounds. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: This is a little bit off tracks. But, so what did Pax parents say when you introduced the Simply Friday format? Did that scare them?

Padraic Deasy: No, they don't get involved, really on that level.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. Okay, okay. All right, get back to my other question. What's one thing you can look back on and think, yeah, you know, that was a great decision. We really did take a big step forward when we did this?

Sonia Deasy: I think for us, education is a really big thing for us, and..

Andrew Hellmich: Giving the education or receiving?

Sonia Deasy: Giving the education, but the amount, I've, we have learned ourselves for our own business since we started, education is unbelievable. And every time we give a workshop or a seminar, I learn I come away with so many ideas just from talking to other photographers. And it's amazing how you can take somebody's idea and it's all about the implementation of that idea. So at the moment, we're at the moment, I'm not going to get into it now, but we're working on one an idea that I got at the last workshop we gave in Arizona, and we're starting to work on that now in the next few weeks. But it always amazes me how many ideas there are out there, and it's just, it's just being able to take that idea and put it into action and see it through and make it work.

Padraic Deasy: That's what we're good at, Andrew, is taking an idea and running with it. We can get things implemented, we can put the systems in place and that they're kind of, we're very consistent.

Sonia Deasy: See, it's about being consistent. So a lot of people will say, "Oh, you know, with Simply Friday. You know, Simply Friday didn't, didn't take off straight away. It took a year before we started to get our diary booked up with Simply Friday, because things you find, and especially, I think in small businesses, it takes time for people to find out about that new idea that you're doing, and you need to be consistent, and you need to stick to your guns and believe in it, and then it will work.

Padraic Deasy: And what we found, Andrew, with education and teaching, is that, you know, for me to stand up and speak to a large group was always my biggest fear now that we've been doing it now for nearly three years. But what it has done is it's gotten us to focus on our own business hugely. Because when you have to stand up and teach and talk about what you do every day. You know you better know your stuff. It has really helped us focus on what we do, how we do it and streamlining.

Sonia Deasy: And why do we do it.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, educating for us is, you know, it's a lot about giving back to the industry and giving back to photographers, but we're also learning while we're teaching, you know, and that's, that's really important, that we never, never stop learning, because this industry is changing so rapidly.

Andrew Hellmich: Anyone that tells me it takes nine hours and 40 minutes, so they know their stuff. You got nothing to prove. Look, let me ask you, if you, let's say you moved to Sydney tomorrow, and you had to, you took the family over to Sydney, you're going to settle down there. What would you do in the first month to kick business off?

Sonia Deasy: To kick our business off?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, if you're going to start it, you have to start all over again, from scratch. What would you do to start?

Padraic Deasy: We do exactly what we're doing here.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, we probably, we wouldn't dive in. What we do is we would probably rent a studio, maybe to begin with them. We do exactly what we're doing here because the model works, and it also the model suits our, because we five kids, so we're very busy, and we, both of us, want to see them growing up. And it's so streamlined. We use, by the way, we use Studio Plus that's our diary system, and it's really good. So it allows us to run our studio through a daily diary.

Padraic Deasy: So yeah, so the first thing we do is be, you know, get it, get a good prime location. Next thing would be, have a good management system. We'd set up our own in house printing and framing facility, then we started looking at our marketing strategy. So we'd be looking at where the local big shopping centers or where there's footfall, we put an exhibition stand in there that's manned on the prime dates and prime times. And then we instantly start growing our database, because currently we have a database of about four and a half thousand customers that when we run a limited edition session or any kind of program, we can instantly get high numbers of bookings because we've got such a good database.

Sonia Deasy: I'd also find out in that area where all the mom and toddler groups are, and where a lot of these mom and toddler groups meet for coffee in certain cafes on maybe Thursday or Friday morning, and I get our portraits home there.

Padraic Deasy: But equally, the hardest thing for any studio is getting people through your front door.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah

Padraic Deasy: Find kind of program or any kind of event that you can run within your studio space that will get people into..

Sonia Deasy: Have a look to see your work.

Andrew Hellmich: What do you mean there?

Sonia Deasy: We run a girls' night out. So every two months, we invite any of our clients that have made that average spend, and we invite them to bring a friend with them, and it's a girly night, so Padraic's not invited. I like to keep the numbers small, so be anything between 12 to 15 is plenty for me, because I need to go around and give them that one on one personal attention, and it's a way by that they see our work, and it's, I don't have to sell to them, because they automatically talk about what is on our walls. They have a glass of bubbly. We have either a beautician in doing makeup or hairdresser doing hair, things that women..

Padraic Deasy: Local vendor that you can cross market with.

Sonia Deasy: And she gets business, she's happy, and it lasts for two hours, and it works really well.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, I love it.

Sonia Deasy: And it keeps your name out there in the community as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I like it.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, it's about for us, it's all about making that connection. So it really is about that relationship. And I think, you know, people by people, and if you can get on what people and you like people, you'll be you'll do well, and you you'll be able, your, your, your business will survive.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, for sure, I've got two more questions to finish off. And then I want to ask you about your workshops, because I know you're coming to Australia, and you also do other workshops around the place. Let me ask, what do you guys wear for everyday work? Do you wear? Do you wear a uniform?

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, yeah. Well, we were, we were either black or now we've kind of transitioned into navy. It was always black, and now navy, I think we're changing to navy, but we wear black, kind of casual. So Padraic will wear, say, black trousers and a black shirt, and now he wears navy, Navy trousers, Navy shirt, and I will wear the same navy trousers, navy top. But we always look professional. So we look like, "Hi, we're here. We're ready to do business. We're not hanging around our studio in trainers and short. So you know, we're always dressed for work as professionals.

Andrew Hellmich: And the other staff are the same in the navy?

Sonia Deasy: Yes, yes.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Great. Sound looks very professional. Sounds cool. What's an embarrassing photography moment or stuff up you can share.

Padraic Deasy: You know, I've been thinking about this, and I can't think of one, but I can tell you a good one about my dad.

Padraic Deasy: Fire away, Padraic.

Padraic Deasy: When I was a kid, I used to on my summer holidays, I used to work here in the studio, so I would always be out at weddings with my dad holding a reflector and, you know, helping out in any way. But one particular Saturday, I wasn't at a wedding here in the studio. And my dad was out shooting a wedding in the town here locally, and he comes running through the front door shouting, because my mom used to work in the business as well. And my mom's name was Sheila. You go, "Sheila. Sheila. Come quick." And everyone went running out see what was going on. And he was holding the back of his trousers. And what had happened was he was on the altar in the church taking the rings pictures, and his trousers’ burst open. He to run out in the middle of the ceremony, and he came in here, and by the time I got to see what was going on, my mom had a stapler and she stapled the back of his trousers off so he could fly back down to the church, and she'd run out and buy a pair of new trousers.

Andrew Hellmich: Is this why you don't shoot weddings?

Padraic Deasy: Pretty much.

Andrew Hellmich: What about you? Sonia, have you had any embarrassing moments in the studio?

Sonia Deasy: I didn't know you're gonna ask me this one.

Andrew Hellmich: That's okay. That's okay.

Padraic Deasy: So no, well, a lot of people think that I am really young, so I don't know, maybe I have a young looking gene, but they never, ever, ever believe that I am the mother of five children.

Padraic Deasy: I didn't either, that's incredible.

Sonia Deasy: I would say an embarrassment for me. It seems I'm a child bride because my parents are Indian, but I was born in Ireland, so I'd say some people think of Padraic's bought me in India.

Andrew Hellmich: I was thinking exactly that. Now, guys, you guys are coming out to Australia soon.

Sonia Deasy: We are, yeah, we're coming out. We're doing three one day seminars. So we're in Melbourne on Monday the 12th of August for a one day seminar from one o'clock to seven o'clock. And then we're in Sydney on the 14th of August, and that's one day as well. And we're in Brisbane on the 16th Friday, the 16th of August, and that's for one day. And then we're flying back into Melbourne on the 19th and 20th we have a two day workshop, so one day will be on the business of portrait photography, and the second day will be Padraic will be doing his lighting workshop on the second day. And then..

Padraic Deasy: And that's a masterclass that will sit 20 people.

Sonia Deasy: And then we have a second masterclass in Sydney on the 22nd and the 23rd of August.

Padraic Deasy: You can see that information if you go to podraicandsonia.com and you go to the seminar section, there's a full link through to all of those dates.

Sonia Deasy: And Sally, I'm sure everybody knows Sally, Sally Sarah, but she is helping us with the tour.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, well, I heard about you guys through Sally from I Need to Sally. And I've actually had Sally on the show before as well. So she's fantastic.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, she is. She's great. And The Edge, The Edge are actually sponsoring the whole tour.

Andrew Hellmich: Great. Okay, well, I'll make sure that I've got links in the show notes to those workshops, and people can get in touch with you and hopefully get involved. Where, where do people, where can they see your work?

Padraic Deasy: If you go to our DC Photographic website. So it's dcphotographystudio.com or.ie is probably better.

Andrew Hellmich: And it's D-E-A-S-Y, photography studio.ie and I'll put links to that as well.

Padraic Deasy: Great.

Sonia Deasy: Cool

Padraic Deasy: There, and you can see the three different styles and how we've kind of broken them down as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's a beautiful website. And like I said, your images are fantastic, and you can see it's all class. And for listeners, I mean, my biggest concern when at the beginning of this interview was I knew that you were presenting seminars, and we talked about this before we hit record. And the biggest concern was having photographers on the podcast that you know, make most of their money from presenting and doing workshops rather than photography. And it's very obvious that you guys don't fall into that, that boat.

Padraic Deasy: We try and limit the amount of workshops that we do to one a month. Now, Australia being the exception, but we've been putting it off for so long, but we're now ready to kind of go there. And this is the quietest August, actually, is the quietest time of the year for us now, because it's very much a holiday time here, and Australia being so far away, you know, we've tried to cram in as much as we can in two weeks. So it's kind of, for us, it's a trip of a lifetime, really, you know. So we're really like going to Australia and meeting Australian photographers, because, you know, most photographers in the different countries that we've been in around the world, they all have pretty much the same concerns. And, you know, we've, over the last three years, we've taught in places like Brazil, America, all over Europe, and we're at the point now where a lot of photographers have actually implemented a lot of what we're teaching in defining their style of photography and streamlining their product ranges and building that long term relationship with their customers. And we get emails on a daily basis from photographers saying that it's working for them, and it's working really well for them and, you know, in the beginning, people would always say to us, "Oh, but that may work in this country. It won't work in that country." You know, we've been in a lot of different continents now at this stage, and it works. You know, once you keep things really tight and you know what your vision is for your business, and you streamline things like we have, it's a model that will work. So, and that's what we really want to share with photographers, and give them some sense of hope and vision for themselves.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, look fantastic. Look I can hear from, you know, from what you've told me just in the last hour, it sounds like it really is all about the numbers and knowing your business back to front. And you know you can be successful if you if you are aware of the numbers.

Padraic Deasy: Yeah, and look, you can be the best photographer in the world, but if you don't know your numbers, you don't have a business. And ultimately, you know it is a creative industry we're in, but it's also it's a business that you're in, and if you don't know your numbers, you won't have a business left. Now, more than ever, you know, there's just so much competition out there that it's just critical now.

Andrew Hellmich: Guys, it's been an absolute pleasure. I know, for Premium Members, I'm going to keep you on the line, but for everyone else, we're going to say goodbye now and thanks again, and hopefully I can catch up with you in Sydney. All right, we'll talk to you soon.

Sonia Deasy: Yeah, thank will be great Andrew.

Padraic Deasy: Thanks, Andrew. Thanks, Andrew.

 
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