041: Steve Saporito – The Doctor of Portrait Photography Success… Is In Session

041: Steve Saporito – The Doctor of Portrait Photography Success Is In Session

Andrew Hellmich: Alrighty, I'm super excited to welcome Steve Saporito to the podcast today. He's better known as the portrait doctor. Steve comes from an accounting background before he moved into the photography industry. He's owned and managed successful portrait studios around the country, before becoming a full time portrait studio training consultant. Since then, he's opened and designed over 30 different studios for his clients, and he's trained many photographers to consistently achieve $3,000 plus average sales. Here's what clients, Mike and Janelle Beveridge had to say about Steve. "All of the changes recommended by Steve have cost us very little in dollar terms. You don't need to completely turn your business on its head. You simply follow his proven formula and you'll see an increase in your results." What an awesome rapt. Steve, welcome to the podcast.

Steve Saporito: Thank you, Andrew. I'm really excited to be here.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, just give us a bit of an idea about your background. You, so you started in accountancy, and then what happened after that?

Steve Saporito: Well, accounting was, for me, there's a foundation that I wanted to use as a starting place for business. And from there, I was asked by one of my clients, to do a feasibility study on opening a photographic studio in a major shopping center. So I suppose that's where it all began, in that all my exposure to photography as a business began, in doing that feasibility study for him. And it was, it came, every all the numbers came out positive, and it was all go, all steam ahead. And from there, he ran it for two years and made quite a bit of money, and wanted to get out. So that was my intro, I gave up accounting and started a photographic, my photographic career, but I've always been in the business of photography, as opposed to physically photographing. So I hired photographers, and I had makeup artists, and I was the sales person at the time, but then hired them because I couldn't be in more than one place at one time, obviously, as the business grew and we had multiple stores.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay, so you telling me you can have a successful portrait photography studio without being a photographer?

Steve Saporito: Well, that's what I managed to do. And to be honest, I think, you know, sometimes we need to take our photographic hats off and really look at the business from a business point of view, as opposed to the photographic side. And that tends to, tends to achieve much more financial success.

Andrew Hellmich: So jump from that, that owning that first, so that first studio that you did have, did you actually buy that same one that you're, the guy set up?

Steve Saporito: Yes, I bought it from him, and paid a heap of money for it and I think that the necessity to pay, because I was in a shopping center, shopping center rents, which, when I sold it, was somewhere around about the 20 something $1,000 mark a month, you know, to come up with that monthly rent bill and as well as staffing, because shopping centers were seven days a week by the time I sold it, by the time you come up with the numbers for rent and then for wages, it's just the money that I needed to turn over to in order to make a living, which at the time, was unbeknownst to me, that most people thought it would be impossible to turn over those sort of numbers from a photographic studio.

Andrew Hellmich: But you did it.

Steve Saporito: Yes, in total ignorance. Which was great! Which is great. I didn't really, because I never considered myself to be a photographer. Although I did photograph and I can photograph, I haven't ever considered myself to be a photographer. I've always considered myself to be in the business of photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so fast forward to today. What is a normal week or month sort of entail these days for you?

Steve Saporito: Oh, me and the Virgin lounge are best friends, seems to be.

Andrew Hellmich: When you say Virgin lounge, you're talking about the airplane.

Steve Saporito: Yes, the airline, not somebody status. The airline, yes. So my normal week up until probably two or three weeks ago has been maybe two or three states, different states in a week. And I would visit clients which are photographic businesses. And my clients range anywhere from somebody that wants to build a franchise to somebody that has a camera, wants to operate a business out of the boot of their car. I have lots of clients that we transform their garages and a room in their home into a base where they can photograph and do design consultations with their clients. And usually we start with, you know, producing product for them and just building the systems for them. So I spend a lot of time in the air, and all of my training is done on site.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so, okay, let's talk a little bit about improving our business because I know that's what the listener wants to hear. They want to hear some tips and ideas of what they can implement, and maybe where they're going wrong and how they can improve their business. So let's say you turn up to a new client today. Yep, what's, what's the first thing you do when you turn up to start assessing things?

Steve Saporito: I walk in and just have a look around and see what's on display. So if there is a physical space where they're working from. We always, I like to meet in that space, because usually it has all of the signs of why they are or are not making money. So usually what that person complains the most about is what they have on display or obvious to their clients when they first walk in. So, for instance, I had a client who engaged me and said, "People in my area only want discs. They will not, there is no way that anybody in my geographical area or any of my clients will buy product as in printed product." And then when I went to visit them, I looked around, and right in front of the screen where they were viewing were CD cases with beautifully printed covers of all the different options of different CDs that they could possibly buy, and very little, very little product. Usually, I have a strong belief that our clients are a total reflection of who we are, and usually whatever issues clients, as in photographic studios, have, it tends to be issues that they have about themselves or about their business. It's something that they focus on a lot, and it tends, tends to translate to the clients as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Let's talk about this, this particular client, if you're okay with that, because we don't know who they are.

Steve Saporito: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: And so what's, okay, so they got a pile of fancy, great looking discs. There not many images, I guess, on the wall, and not many large prints. Is that what you are saying?

Steve Saporito: Well, there's another trap that you just fell into, is that you referred to what we produce as images.

Andrew Hellmich: Instead of photos or framed prints?

Steve Saporito: Well, images has an undertone, or almost an assumption that it is in a digital format, and that is one of the banned words for one of my clients. And we cannot, well for any, for all of my clients, we cannot refer to what we produce as an image, because when you refer to your work as something like artwork or, you know, when you're talking about, you know, collection of photos or photography, there is a much higher perceptual value associated with that than producing an image, to our clients. And our clients' perception is their reality.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so back to this, this photographer that you walked in, and she's got these fancy disc cases. So what has she got on her or he got on their wall?

Steve Saporito: Well, first of all, the room was orientated in a way that wasn't conducive to people buying and almost every studio that I walk into, usually the setup for clients looking at their photos isn't great, so we design, redesign the room to make room for the product. And she was, we removed all of those discs and CDs, and she was in the middle of doing a design consultation with one of her clients when her first Canvas set arrived from the printers, and the client was like, "Oh my God, what are they?" And she quickly unwrapped one, and she sold a $5,000 piece of artwork that day and hadn't even unwrapped it.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Steve Saporito: So, you know her previous story that none of her clients would buy wall art or would consider buying anything that was printed was more about, you know, what she was showing and what she would allow her clients to buy. And I find a lot of the times when I'm there for the design consultations, it's almost as if, as photographers, we bully them into buying what we are comfortable with and stop them buying what they're what they really want. And most people are after something to put on the wall when they first call us, and then all those subliminal messages that we give them along the way, about our images, and about, you know, disc and, and you know, that discussion of well, sometimes that you know, the photographers are bringing up the discussion of the disc leads them to buy disc, because we've confused them so much along the way.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you suggest photographers still sell a disc of images or just totally take that out of the equation altogether?

Steve Saporito: I don't think you should promote it. I don't think it needs to be something that's on display. I mean, I've heard, I've heard of people, you know, framing a disc and saying, you know, "This isn't a product that we sell. Look how bad it looks in a frame." I don't think it's something that needs to be on display at all. I think that if you are going to sell a disc, then make it a product, and make it something that is valuable. So that way people are paying a reasonable amount of money for that as a product. Now, ideally, you know, what are we selling our clients, you know, where is the value in what we sell? It's certainly not in the paper, and it's not in the ink, it's our expertise and the way that we create that piece for people. Why is that any different whether it's in a printed format or in a digital format? So the same amount of work, and you know, finish should go into anything that goes on disk. So we should be finishing everything, and we should be charging a reasonable amount of money for our efforts.

Andrew Hellmich: So, realistically, a disk of high res files that are finished and retouched should be 345, $1,000.

Steve Saporito: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay.

Steve Saporito: It should be sold at a premium to what you would sell an eight by 10 for, purely because it is, you've sold the copyright, basically. So there's part of that intrinsic value needs to be added to, to the price of that disc, or of those images. So I think that a lot of people, a lot of people don't see the value in the disc. And for me, my heart breaks to see discs go out. So, you know, my core belief is that if you really want something of value, then it should be up on the wall. Because really, how long does the disc last? Two years?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Steve Saporito: Three years?

Andrew Hellmich: Who really knows?

Steve Saporito: Yeah. So, you know, I know when we've done backups, it's always the one that, always the one that you need that fails, and some of those are six months old or a year old. So that must be happening to our clients as well. So, I don't feel right charging somebody $3,000 for something that I know is probably only going to last six months. Their belief may be that they now have control over the backup, but most people don't understand how to back up photographic work anyway. So really, the best way to have that and preserve that, that piece of artwork that who you've engaged a photographer to create for you is to have it printed, because then it's controlled all the way to the end.

Andrew Hellmich: I totally understand, and I agree with what you're saying. I know that the listeners like nodding, yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand. I get this. But how do we, how do we encourage our clients to see things the way that we see them? I mean, we want them to have a wall print.

Steve Saporito: Well, to be honest, most of my the client, well, all of the clients that I trained don't have the issue with disc because we remove it totally from site, and it's almost like a car yard. Yes, they sell, they sell the base model with plastic hubcaps and cloth trim. But do you put that out on, do they have that on display in the showroom? No. So you know, if we're not tempting them and making it easy for people then to buy wall product, then they just won't. And I've found that most people, a lot of people, default to asking for a disc because we've confused them so much along the way by making the selection process difficult, by being unsure, because we don't want to guide them throughout that selection process and creation of wall art for them, they default to, "Well, I'm not sure, so can I have a disc?"

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, let's talk about that process. Let's say we've redone our studios, that we've got some great product on the wall. We've got 20 by 30s, and 16 by 24. We've got some canvases. We've got our.. it looks we've got the stuff on the wall that we want to sell. We've got no discs inside.

Steve Saporito: Okay, can we, can we go back?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, yeah, sure.

Steve Saporito: Okay, so 20 by 30 isn't big.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, all right. 40 by 60?

Steve Saporito: Size is relative. You know, 40-60 is yes, but my belief is we need to come up with solutions for people. So it's not just about selling art photo, it's finding a solution for people. So when you do portraits, where do people tend to want to place their portraits, when you sell it to them?

Andrew Hellmich: I would say the lounge or the living room.

Steve Saporito: Lounge or the living room, and where in that living room do they tend to put it? Is it near any furniture, or is it where?

Andrew Hellmich: I would say it's above, like a buffet, or it's going to be where you can see it from the, you know, the dining room table.

Steve Saporito: So above the dining, so it'll either be above the dining room table or above maybe a couch or something like that, you're saying?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, for sure.

Steve Saporito: So we need to find solutions for that. So a 20 by 30, and usually, you know, these days, people have modular couches and there's, you know, they're 3-4-5 seater, seven seater couches. They're substantial pieces of furniture. So realistically, a 20 by 30, above that size couch is going to look ridiculous. So coming up with a set or a collection of canvases that would suit the types of areas that your clients want to place product is the answer. So we should be selling a set of photos that work well in the areas that our clients want to place them. So understanding your clients and knowing, you know, having a solution for all of the places that they would tend to display artwork is the key to having the right product for a client.

Andrew Hellmich: How do you get to that stage, though, with a client? Because I'm guessing that most studios will open up something like ProSelect, they do a basic edit, and then we start narrowing it down to a few images, and then we work out how big we're going to print them.

Steve Saporito: Andrew, you've got all this limiting, this limiting language that you keep throwing at me all the time.

Andrew Hellmich: That's a good thing. I don't do sales in my business.

Steve Saporito: Well, you know, first of all, we never narrow down. Because if you teach your clients to narrow down, they get really, really good at it. So they should be choosing their favorites from what you show them, we should already know before you've even taken a photograph, where they're going to, whether they believe they want to hang or display artwork.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, in your experience, are clients, will they happily come forward and say, "I'm thinking above the lounge in the lounge room."

Steve Saporito: Yes, if you can inspire them enough to have photos done through the booking process. So if you are really good at asking really great questions about their family, about their relationships, about who they are and what they value, then suddenly they get totally inspired by what's possible and what you can create for them. Now, if they absolutely, absolutely desire what you are going to produce for them, they will find somewhere to display it, and they will be definite as to where it's going to go. So finding out about, you know, their two year old and asking them something like, "Okay, so, you know, imagine Timothy when he's in a room, all by himself, just playing beautifully. And if he was all by himself playing beautifully, what would he be doing? And as you look at him doing whatever he is, that he's, you know, playing, he might be playing blocks or something, what are some of those expressions that you love the most? What is it that you love about that part of his personality? What are some of those things that you love?" And then you begin to have a conversation about what's important to them. They find somewhere where they would like to hang that. And then you start to shoot for purpose. But I think that a lot of the times when I first started, start working with clients, they're shooting aimlessly without purpose. They don't have the product in mind that they're shooting for. They haven't asked the client what style home they have. They don't know where it's going to go in their room, and they've picked up a camera and started shooting blindly, not knowing what the photographer, what the client's goal is. So it's very easy then, if you have all that information to then shoot with purpose and create artwork that is meaningful to these people. If that's the case, the clients get inspired, and they happily find lots of places to put up, to place their artwork. And it's not uncommon for people to buy three or four different sets for their home from one sitting.

Andrew Hellmich: You're almost building, well, it sounds like you're building up an emotional attachment, or you're building this emotional attachment between the client and the images, sorry, the prints, the photography.

Steve Saporito: Even before it's been shot. If they can visualize what we're about to create for them, suddenly you have a client that's invested or vested in what you're about to do for them, and they totally, totally get excited about having their photos done. And we even go to the lengths of speaking to their partners, the husbands, to find out what he values. And you know, would like to have out of a photo shoot. Because really, if you ask any woman how she sees herself and what her, you know, what are some of her best points, then ask her partner, usually those two stories don't correlate, because women naturally aren't graded, you know, seeing what's beautiful about them, and you know, what a part, what parts of their personality that you know deserve to be, I suppose, immortalized by the artwork that we can create for them, and they're their own worst judge, I suppose. So involving their partners means that we're now shooting through two sets of eyes, through hers and through his, as well as the photographers. That's three and he, he's involved in the process. So then that way, when we get to the point where we are selecting their favorite photos and creating wall art, we're not ambushing him into a situation where the only time we've ever looked at him is when it was time to hand over the credit card, which is a huge mistake.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. I mean, this all sounds like a pretty perfect scenario. I mean, it's pretty rare that I think most photographers get to talk to the husband as well as the wife, before the actual photo shoot. Normally, we're meeting the guys on the shoot.

Steve Saporito: Well, that's only because you don't demand it before you shoot them.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're saying, organize a pre consult?

Steve Saporito: Well, you could either do it on the phone, or you could do it, or you could do it as a pre-consult, but for those people that believe they need to speak to their partners before they can take a photograph, then it happens.

Steve Saporito: Okay, all right, very good. Okay.

Steve Saporito: It's almost like saying, "I'll do the wedding, but we're not going to wait for the groom to arrive." Would you do that?

Andrew Hellmich: Well, no, but I can, I can honestly say I've done, I've shot some weddings where I haven't met the groom until the day of the wedding. I don't like it, but it does happen.

Steve Saporito: So who allowed that to happen?

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I mean, I guess we say, "Look, we really want to meet the guys. We really want to meet the groom before the wedding day." And it just sometimes it just doesn't happen. They may be away working interstate, they don't get back until the week of the wedding, and all this sort of stuff, so.

Steve Saporito: So, but there's always phone, there's always Skype. I mean, we're doing it right now.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, for sure. You really think it's important to have that, that connection with the mum and the dad before the shoot. If the dad's going to be there for the shoot.

Steve Saporito: Absolutely. And you know, you would encourage them to be there, because these days, most people are so disconnected with their families, and they're so disconnected with even themselves. You know, you go to a restaurant these days and, you know, mum and dad are sitting there, and the kids have their iPhones or their iPads, and they're sort of playing in their own little world, and mum and dad are on Facebook and they're out for dinner.

Andrew Hellmich: It's ridiculous, isn't it?

Steve Saporito: It is. And I think that if we could somehow reconnect families along this journey and add value back to our clients, because there's a lot of guilt out there, there's a lot of dads out there that are working ridiculous hours, that do work interstate, that are jumping on planes, as I do, you know, and I totally get this, you know, we're putting a lot of work into what we do and sacrificing time with our families, and there's a lot of guilt associated with that. And to involve them in this process and make them feel valuable and to find out what they really enjoy when they get time to spend with their kids, and when they get time, you know, to be with their family. You know, there's lots of times even I'm guilty of this, we sit at the table and, you know, my daughter's looking up at me wanting attention, and my brain still on the client that I left in Sydney or in more in Perth or in Adelaide, and I don't even notice. So if we could, through this, I suppose booking process be asking questions that are going to make them present and make them take notice, even, even if it's for that time leading up to the photo shoot, and we can engage them and create a total photographic experience whereby they're experiencing their family and those connections are becoming sensitized to that again. Then we'll not only are we producing meaningful artwork, but we're also reconnecting families, and if we can put a testament up on their wall as to how, you know, who, who they really are when they do spend time with their family, then to them, it's a constant reminder of that connection that they have with their families, and to me, that's valuable.

Andrew Hellmich: Let's jump forward, Steve, let's say that we've had this amazing shoot, and we even talked to the dad beforehand, but he can't make it to the sales appointment. Mum's coming on her own.

Steve Saporito: I would delay it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so don't do it.

Steve Saporito: No.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Can I, what about if she says, "I just want to come in and have a look at the photos."

Steve Saporito: "I'm really excited for you. But you know what, we don't want to take any of that excitement away from David, either, do we?"

Andrew Hellmich: Nice.

Steve Saporito: "Okay, so how about we appoint you for when he is free next?"

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, in a couple of weeks.

Steve Saporito: That's cool. Well, usually that would never happen, though, Andrew, because the clients are so excited all the way through that most of them, I've had clients that you know when you talk to them over the phone and they want to book on the same day and come in and have their shoots done. So it just doesn't happen. I think it's a reflection of, you know, how excited you can genuinely be for them, and whether you engage them all the way through. So that sort of scenario doesn't tend to happen because they've been engaged all the way through.

Andrew Hellmich: So it really starts at the beginning.

Steve Saporito: It does totally, totally from the beginning.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, let's say you walked into the to a studio and they look like they're doing things right. They're taking your advice and talking to the dad and things, things are going well in the shoots. What do you say when you look at someone's price list, when you walk in, they're doing the other things, right? What do you look, what are you looking for?

Steve Saporito: Normally, they're not doing anything right until we've looked at the price list. Usually, when I'm looking at a price list, it's so complicated that the photographers actually struggle in explaining to me how it works, and I've looked at thousands of price lists. And, you know, whenever I walk into a studio, usually that is the most confusing part of the entire process. There's so many options, there's so many different price points, and there's so many variables. So to me, you know, one huge thing that I look to do is simplify.

Andrew Hellmich: What does the perfect price list have in it?

Steve Saporito: Well, the perfect price list is never shown to the client in a portrait situation, to start with.

Andrew Hellmich: How does that work?

Steve Saporito: Well, we should be, we should be confident enough to tell our clients how much something is. To me, when I look at somebody's prices, you know, I've been in the industry for 20 something years, and half the time I don't understand it. So imagine what, how our clients feel, and whenever they're not sure, and whenever they are feeling confused, they will default to a disk. So in order for us to avoid that, we want to try to keep it as simple as possible. And when you think about how much things cost us to produce from our suppliers, there's not a huge difference in printing, say, a 16-20 and a 20 by 24 like, what's the price difference, really?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, not a lot.

Steve Saporito: What? Five bucks, 10 bucks, something like that?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Steve Saporito: So, you know. And then as far as a frame goes, if you were to frame a 16-20 as opposed to a 20 by 24, what's the difference in price there?

Andrew Hellmich: Probably 20 or $30.

Steve Saporito: 20 to $30. So why do we make it so hard for our clients? Why not say to them, "Look, I've taken all of that way, I'm happy to absorb the cost. You can order anything for your wall up to this point, and it's only whatever you decide it is."

Andrew Hellmich: Are you talking about, even starting at the smallest size, all the way up to these you know, 40 by 50s, 40 by 60s, or?

Steve Saporito: 40 by 60 would break that point where, you know, it would probably cost a lot more to frame up a 40 by 60. But you know, anything, anything up to about a 20-30, 30-40, the price difference between a 16-20 and, let's say we started a 16-20 because that's really the smallest. You know, if you're talking about a piece of wall art, really, a 16-20 sort of on the smallish side anyway, so let's just pick that. But some people would say 11 by 14, but let's just pick a 16-20 so the difference between, you know, printing and framing a 16-20 as opposed to a 20 by 30, there's not a lot of difference. So why? Why make it hard for clients by charging an extra, you know, four or five steps along the way, when the cost to us is negligible, why not just allow them to choose what is going to suit their room? Otherwise we end up in a, you know, "Well, if I went down a size, how much would that be? And then if I went down another size, how much would that be?" And it becomes almost like they've done a trip to Bali, and they're bartering. Sorry, not bartering, haggle.

Andrew Hellmich: So really, you're just saying, "Look, it's the same price. It's the same price. So choose what suits your wall. It's all the same price."

Steve Saporito: Well, when you think about what we charge, where is the real value?

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. I mean, using your analogy of the disc and the cost to work on the images, I mean really any print is basically valued at the same cost.

Steve Saporito: Any photograph.

Andrew Hellmich: Any photograph.

Steve Saporito: I'll probably be slip up too now, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll be waiting.

Steve Saporito: So you know, the real value in what we do is in our expertise. It's in our lighting, it's in our posing. It's the way we see things. It's the way we compose that piece for people, the printing, the framing, is negligible compared to the retail price of that product. So if it's going to cost you 30,40, 50, even $60 difference between the largest size and a smaller size, why go through and can, you know, make it a decision for clients, why not just make it the same price?

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. I like it. Let's stay on this, on the topic of pricing, what are your views on packages? I'm probably using the wrong term here, packages or individual prints.

Steve Saporito: I don't know whether I can say this in the radio, but anyway, what does the word package mean to you, Andrew?

Steve Saporito: Well, it means that we're going to get a collection at a reduced price.

Steve Saporito: Yeah. So you're selling something for what?

Andrew Hellmich: Well, for less if you package it all up together.

Steve Saporito: So the focus is what?

Andrew Hellmich: I guess it comes back to price.

Steve Saporito: Yeah, so who's focusing on price? You or the client?

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so don't, don't use packages.

Steve Saporito: Well, I don't. I think for weddings, people are up a package, package focused. But as far as portraiture goes, which is, you know, what my specialty is, I think if, if you are truly creating a custom product, and you are truly designing an experience for somebody, and you have done your best to get into the mind of each of the people that are involved in this family. You know, even if you're shooting a couple, I know that you shoot weddings. So you know, when you're shooting a wedding, or you're doing the pre-wedding shoot, or the engagement shoot, whatever you want to call it, previous to the wedding, as a portrait shoot. You know, there's, from a couple's point of view, there's, you know, her perception of who she is, his perception of who she is, her perception of who he is, his perception of who he is, her perception of them as a couple, and his perception of them as a couple. And all of that needs to be taken into consideration when you're photographing them. So if you're creating this custom shoot, this custom experience, where does the con, you know, why would we be focusing on discounting and price and all that? Why wouldn't we just be focusing on, you know, what's important, which is, you know, capturing their relationship. And if we are customizing that for people, why would we be discounting it? Does it make sense?

Andrew Hellmich: It does. It totally it does.

Steve Saporito: So the minute you talk about packaging, automatically, you're basically almost saying, "Well, let me show you a package." And it's almost like slapping them across the face and saying, "Ignore all that emotion. And you know, that connection we've created for you. Now, let's, you know, have I got a deal for you?" Let's focus on the price.

Andrew Hellmich: What about the photographer that wants to reward their client for spending a lot?

Steve Saporito: Absolutely, you could do that, and you can, you can do that by value adding rather than discounting.

Andrew Hellmich: So include an extra product or upsize or something.

Steve Saporito: So if you were to include an extra, even if it was an extra 16-20 which may have a perceptual value of $800 or $500 or $1,000 wherever your price point is, to a client, rewarding them with that extra $1,000 has a lot more perceptual value than that couple of $100 you're going to take off as a discount.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, for sure. And what about the client that says, you know, "We've picked our favorite half a dozen images, we're getting large wall, wall art. And, you know.."

Steve Saporito: Well done, Andrew. Well done!

Andrew Hellmich: "We're really happy, but we just want the rest of the photos. We love them all."

Steve Saporito: Fantastic. Do you know what? I've got the perfect product for you. Let me show you one of our albums, or one of our portrait boxes.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so, we, it's important then for us, what I'm understanding is to have products that can satisfy the client.

Steve Saporito: And to me, that's one of the biggest failings of a lot of studios, is that clients turn up and there's nothing to buy.

Andrew Hellmich: Really?

Steve Saporito: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: You just tell me they've got the most complicated price lists in the world. There must be, there must be lots to buy.

Steve Saporito: But it's complicated in so far as each size is a different, is a different, you know, per millimeter, and then depending upon the frame molding. And then, you know, if you want a double matter, a single matter, spacing or floating, and all of this stuff, you know, is a variable. But really, most people are selling art photo, whether it be framed or whether it be a canvas or acrylic or metal, they're not creating solutions as so far as a collection of photos, this is what would suit us. You know, something that would look perfect above a four seater couch, this would look perfect above a queen size bed or a king size bed. You know, having those portrait boxes available for people to see, having albums that you can show them. You know what an album would look like if you were to put something together. You know, a price list doesn't do that. And we should be, we should be finding out what they want and designing what they, what they absolutely desire, and then customizing it for them in the finish that's going to work for their home.

Andrew Hellmich: So this whole business model that we've been talking about, I mean, it sounds very high-end to me, and I know some listeners, and some..

Steve Saporito: So high-end that it can't be run out of the boot of your car, that's how.. high-end for you?

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I guess what I'm thinking. I see these things on, you know, forums and blogs about mini sessions and trying to pump people through and Christmas specials and all this sort of thing. I can't see this process working for that style of shoot.

Steve Saporito: No. It's, um, I it's, it's more about providing a total experience for people, it's not about volume.

Andrew Hellmich: Does the volume model still work?

Steve Saporito: It does as long as you're prepared to work a lot.

Andrew Hellmich: So you have to work harder or longer or more.

Steve Saporito: Well, it's based on volume. And the thing about photography is that it is very labor intensive. You know, a shoot will take as long as a shoot takes. And then there's downloading, cropping, culling, selection, you know, all the rest of it, retouching, you know, checking the prints when they come back. So there's, there's a lot of work involved in it. And I know I would much rather shoot five clients a week and earn 20 or $30,000 out of all of them than having to shoot 80 people a week, or, you know, 20 people a week.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, well, let's, let's stay with that. What I'm calling the high-end model.

Steve Saporito: What do you mean by high-end? You define what you what you mean?

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I guess high-end is, you know, is spending that extra time. I mean, I don't know many studios. I know there are some, but I don't know many studios that would be talking to the husband before the shoot, would even be doing a pre-consult. I know that, or my understanding is, that, a lot of studios would be taking a booking. Then we meet at the beach or the park or the home, we do the shoot for an hour, an hour and a half, and then we book a sales appointment.

Steve Saporito: So you do turn up to the beach, not knowing, not knowing what they really want. Why did you choose the beach?

Andrew Hellmich: Well, that's what I'm saying. So this is, I'm sure, and I know that some photography studios will have their set locations, their set spots they go to, and it's, I know, I know it's detached from what you're saying, and it's a totally different experience, because it's basically get down there and get some photos.

Steve Saporito: You know what it was, it's really funny, because I had a client, funny, you mentioned the beach. I had a client who was based in the northern beaches, and we, I went in and did some consulting for him. And he had a studio, but he never used the studio, and he absolutely swore black and blue that his clients didn't want any photography done in studio. His clients, because they live on the northern beaches, totally, totally want to be shot at the beach. And love, love those areas where he shoots to meet and nobody wants shoots in studio or in parks or anywhere other than his set locations, which sort of falls into what you were saying before the set location thing. Now, my family and I are not beach people, so I asked my wife at the time to ring and try to book a shooting for us and just see what happens. I said to her, now, you know, you know, I sort of explained to her that, you know, he's, it is by the beach. He'll probably want to book it, book in a shoot at the beach, but I'd much prefer to have a shoot done in studio. So we basically did a mystery call. There was absolutely no way known that the person at the other end of the phone would hear "We are not beach people. We do not want a shoot down at the beach." All they heard was, "Yes, we would love to have a shoot at the beach, and yes, we would want", so I mean, and in that case, we probably would have turned up, and we probably would have gone through the motions, but because nobody bothered to find out what we wanted, there's no way that we would invest a substantial amount of money. We probably would ask for a disc at the end of it, because we didn't connect enough to want to have anything printed. So I know that a lot of studios do that, and almost every studio that I've ever worked with does do that. But when we begin to ask our clients and really begin to listen to what they want and who they are and what's important to them, usually the location becomes less relevant to the client and to us as photographers, as that relationship that we're trying to capture, that interaction. You know you can capture that almost anywhere. And if we're not focused on that human element and focusing on the personalities of these people, then really all they're buying is a landscape, and they happen to be in the shot occasionally, and people won't invest the same amount of money as something that they're totally connected with, that can it totally resonates with who they believe their family is, and represents to them in their heart.

Andrew Hellmich: So what about then these photographers that want to do these mini sessions and these promos? And you know, is that just a, just a bad idea altogether, or is there, is there a place for that?

Steve Saporito: Well, there's a place for, I mean, different businesses run in different ways, and, you know, it's a way of injecting cash flow into a business. A lot of the times, whenever I've heard of people doing that, it's, it's usually to fill in gaps or to fill in perceptually bad times of the year. But with portraiture, there's no real bad times of the year. There's only times of the year where you need to mark it more than others. So you know, it's not seasonal at all, not in Australia, anyway.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay, that was a perfect lead into my next question. Market, marketing, how, how do we find these, these perfect clients that want to spend these, you know, these thousands of dollars with us?

Steve Saporito: We need to create them, the client? Well, to a degree, I think that first, I mean, first of all, we need to know that a lot of people that do portraiture also do weddings, and have started in weddings, and many don't really differ the type of marketing that they do. So for weddings, people are already in the market for a photographer. The ring goes on the finger. They've gotten engaged, and they're seeking a photographer for their wedding. With portraiture, it's quite the reverse in that with portraiture, it's something that they're gonna do or something that they were meaning to do and should get around to at some point. But unless you're actively marketing for them, and you're really almost tripping them over, they don't stop to do it. So having something that is offer based, having something that you know is consistently out there and you're going out to meet the people, needs to happen in order for you to find those clients, then it's your job "to educate them along the way on all of the things that they need to consider before they have a photo shoot done, you know, like, you know, "Have you looked at your child in the last six months or 12 months? And can you describe to me, you know, what are some of those things that he enjoys doing? Or, what do you enjoy doing with little Timothy when you get alone time with him? You know? What are some of those things that you know, when you have alone time, do you spend time doing or would you like to spend more time doing?" So in that way, we almost, I suppose, creating clients, because they now need to start searching for all of these answers, and from that, because we're adding so much value back into their relationships and into their families that they are happy to invest.

Andrew Hellmich: What about actually getting that phone ringing or the emails coming in? What have you got a couple of concrete things that the listener can implement into their business to help with that?

Steve Saporito: I think working with strategic, strategic alliances seem to be, you know, one of the things that give you consistent bookings. Working with other businesses that also seek the same type of client that you're looking for, so people that have discretionary income available to them, so that's income that they don't have to necessarily spend to survive. So if you were to set up a strategic alliance with a jeweler, whereby, you know, and it needs to be win-win, so maybe you would approach a jeweler and say, "Hey, it's coming up to Valentine's Day. Funny enough, it is, you know, we should be planning now for Valentine's Day. It's now November, and in most cases, most of most of the clients that I work with have already got their Valentine's Day thing done. So it's almost on the lead up. So, you know, planning ahead is essential." But you know, working with the jeweler and saying, "Hey, you know, what if, for every ring or piece of jewelry that's bought over a certain amount of money on the lead up to Valentine's Day, if you could offer those people that bought that a gift and it basically, it's some sort of a certificate whereby they could come in and have a photographic shoot or photographic experience with a leading photographer." That alliance, if it's nurtured well, can bring in, can bring in bookings, and realistically, a studio these days, they need at least seven different lead, lead sources or ways of different, I suppose, avenues that people are coming in, into the studio.

Andrew Hellmich: So not seven different strategic alliances, but seven different avenues to get the phone ringing.

Steve Saporito: Yeah, yeah. So it doesn't need to be seven different alliances, but there needs to be seven different, I suppose, sources, whereby they're sourcing people that may be interested in photography. So I think, you know, the first thing we tend to do when I walk into a studio is, you know, "Are you doing any networking? And, you know, join a BNI group or, or join, you know, call the local Chamber of Commerce and find out what networking groups are happening in your area. There's lunches or dinners, or, you know."

Andrew Hellmich: Do they really help?

Steve Saporito: Absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: How, how do they help? You know, a little old portrait studio, you know, working from home, and you can rub shoulders with, you know, the local Chamber of Commerce.

Steve Saporito: Well, they'll they can put you in in contact with, you know, some of the networking groups that are happening in your area. So there'll be lunches happening. There'll be, you know, particularly for you know, women, there's, there seems to be even sort of women's lunches that support home businesses. There's even home business networks. And you'd be surprised at how doors open when, it's not so much rubbing shoulders with but a lot of people are seeking to increase their networks and markets as well. And your clients may use some of their product, well, some of the services that they provide, as well. So it's got to be win-win. And you know, if there is, I don't know. Let's pick something that actually happened. Okay, so we went to one and there was a guy running a mechanic. He was a mechanic, and he only serviced, you know, mainly BMWs, but he also did Audi as well. So his specialty was Audis and BMWs, but it was from, he did it from his own garage. It wasn't at home, but it was, you know, in industrial state, it wasn't BMW. And he provided an alternative to, you know, what the luxury car service centers provided. And he had some great clients. You know, when they came, when they came in, and they had a major service with him, he would then give them, he would then give them something from us, that worked really well. We also met at the same thing, there was a lady from a dental surgery, and it was just the local dental surgery, and we set up an alliance whereby, I think that she said that they had 10 people, 10 kids a week that had their braces off. So they, you know, they also did, what do you call it? Orthodontic?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, orthodontic work.

Steve Saporito: Yeah, orthodontic work. And, you know, every week they had 10, on average, 10 kids having their braces off. So to celebrate that moment, you know, let's face it, most of these kids have shied away from the camera for what, two years, three years?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Steve Saporito: And their parents haven't had a decent photograph of them for that time. And it's almost like a rebirth of their confidence, having their braces taken off. So setting up some sort of an opportunity for them to come in, and have some a portrait experience with that studio, was fantastic.

Andrew Hellmich: So Steve, what's the benefit for the dentist or the orthodontist? In this case, because it has to be win-win, you said.

Steve Saporito: It is. And for him, it gives him, it's a way of saying thank you. Because a lot of these parents have invested a lot of money over the years, it gives him a way to stand out and gets people to talk about him for longer.

Andrew Hellmich: So is it a gift from him, or is it a gift from you, the studio?

Steve Saporito: From him.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so it looks like he's paid for the sitting or the shoot and the experience, and he's giving it to his client as a gift.

Steve Saporito: Yeah. So he, he, we've had somewhere that they actually physically pay for these certificates. And we've had some where we really were starting from zero. And initially we were saying, look, here's 30 vouchers. The value is x amount of dollars. We'd love for you to be able to give these to some of your clients. So it depends on where you are in your business. If you're right at startup and you have zero bookings, then we need to do whatever we need to do to get some of these certificates out there. If you're more established, then, you know, charge, charge for them. And there are lots of businesses on the lead up to Christmas now, you know, it's the lead up to Christmas. There are lots of companies that are looking for ways to reward valuable staff members. For valuable staff, you know, staff costs a lot of money to retrain if they lose people. So rewarding those that are valuable to a business usually means that they're also earning a really good income. So for them, they get a way of rewarding them, even if you had to, let's use that really bad word, Andrew, just count that one that you're not allowed to use. But in this case, it's okay. So even if you were to sell a certificate at a reduced amount of money to this business, you know, we've done it. You know, they've bought 20 or 30 of these certificates. They had a face value of $300 each, but they paid $75 each because they bought in bulk, and they ended up with 30 of them. So there's a cash influx for us. And then, as all of those employees come in, they, you know, they usually their top employees, so they're earning really good money and have the capacity to spend, so it works out, it's good value for them, and they have a way of rewarding their team, as well as when they come in. You know, we're also earning money as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so these networking functions and these alliances can definitely, you know, play big dividends if we use them right.

Steve Saporito: Huge dividends if, if we nurture them. And it's got to be win-win. You can't go in there expecting for people to hand over their database, you need to help them in their business. So, you know, a lot of retailers these days are totally suffering because they need to somehow build loyalty. And these days, if a retailer is not building loyalty, then they're going to be out of business, because there's always something cheaper on the internet. So if you could help them build loyalty by working with them and maybe offering, you know, something to their most loyal and best clients, then you're helping that business attain that loyalty and maybe create a higher you know, maybe it's, you pitched at your average sale in that retail outlet is three or $400, what if they got to $400 and once they got to that, there's a reason for them to then spend a bit more, then they would get a certificate from you. So that's win-win.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, sure, they've got a reason to go for the sale, and their clients got, well, that the shop has got a reason to spend a bit more in that shot.

Steve Saporito: Yeah, absolutely. So for them, it helps increase their average. It helps reward loyalty. There might be some clients that have been loyal customers for years. So, you know, they may just invite, you know, send it out as part of their Christmas card campaign. How is your Christmas card campaign going, have you sent out your Christmas cards yet?

Andrew Hellmich: You haven't received mine yet, Steve.

Steve Saporito: Haven't I? What's going on there? You know, and these are all the things that, these are all the things that photographers, for whatever reason, seem to forget. You know, we spend all this time and say, "Oh my god, I love my clients. I do everything for them. And, you know, I really get into their head and know exactly what they you know what they want", and then we don't even send them a Christmas card.

Andrew Hellmich: True, I was gonna say I just come across a new app. Or it's probably not that new from Australia Post, so not relevant to overseas listeners, but you can basically take a photo from your iPhone and send a postcard, and it could be anything, and it goes straight to anyone in your contacts list. It costs $1 it's amazing.

Steve Saporito: Or there's something like Send Out Cards that you can use too. So, you know, can just drop, drag and send it, so.

Andrew Hellmich: No excuse.

Steve Saporito: There's no excuse. You know, Christmas, our Christmas campaign, we used to send out, admittedly, two or 3000 Christmas cards a year because we had quite a large database, and that generated, on average, $60,000 a month for us, for November, December, January, February, until the end of March, five months of the year. So those Christmas cards, you know six, five to three, you know that that would earn us $300,000.

Andrew Hellmich: That's huge.

Steve Saporito: Have you done your Christmas card?

Andrew Hellmich: Stop making me feel guilty, Steve. I'm a wedding photographer.

Steve Saporito: Well, let's see so, so that must mean that you're sending every one of your clients an anniversary card, doesn't it?

Andrew Hellmich: I am, I am, indeed.

Steve Saporito: You are?

Andrew Hellmich: It's a good thing this podcast is for the benefit of the listener.

Steve Saporito: This is true. But we need, we need a subject, don't we? Now with, with those with those anniversary cards that you send out, are you inviting them back in?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, for a portrait shot, and hopefully with their new kids.

Steve Saporito: Yes. Hopefully. Don't forget Andrew, that the first year, the first year anniversary, traditionally, is what?

Andrew Hellmich: I'm gonna walk into a trap here.

Steve Saporito: Traditionally is first year anniversary for wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you mean, like, paper, diamond, that sort of thing?

Steve Saporito: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: It's paper.

Steve Saporito: Really?

Andrew Hellmich: For photography, for us. Certainly not paper, Stevie. Is that what you're suggesting?

Steve Saporito: Exactly what I'm suggesting, and perhaps we could, you know, write something really beautiful in this card and remind them that it's their first, you know, congratulate them on their first wedding anniversary, remind them that the first anniversary, traditionally, is paper. And hey, guess what we do?

Andrew Hellmich: Be nice when I send the groom so he can surprise his wife easily.

Steve Saporito: Yeah, add that on the list, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: I will. I want to be conscious of your time, and I normally have a 10 quick questions for photographers. Now, I know you're more of a business person and a mentor and a guide than a photographer, but can I throw a few quick questions at you that I had written down?

Steve Saporito: Absolutely. You can ask graphic questions, because I do photograph as well, if you want.

Andrew Hellmich: That's okay. Well, I normally have a set 10 questions, but look, I just had a few things written down beforehand. We haven't really got to them. So is it a good time for photographers right now?

Steve Saporito: Absolutely

Andrew Hellmich: It is good. So it's not tougher than it's ever been?

Steve Saporito: It's just different. And I think that people just need to modify the difference. I have clients who, last week rang me, and their takings for the week was $60,000 for the week.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice.

Steve Saporito: So is it? Is it a good time for photography, Andrew?

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds like it.

Steve Saporito: And I mean, you can't go by the one-offs. I mean, you know these people consistently, you know, they did have a good week, but, you know, normal is about 40, 40 grand a week.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic.

Steve Saporito: That's good money, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: That is for sure. What's the biggest problem you see with people's websites?

Steve Saporito: There's, usually the contact information is missing in that there's no phone number, there's no call to action.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you need a call to action and a phone number on every page?

Steve Saporito: Yeah, I've been on two websites looking for a phone number to call, and I can't believe how many websites there are, that there is physically no way of calling someone, and it's very difficult to build a relationship, because photography is all about building relationships over the internet.

Andrew Hellmich: For workflow, what's the best software for selling portraits?

Steve Saporito: ProSelect. Without a doubt, ProSelect is. If a potential client, will not buy ProSelect, I will not work with them.

Andrew Hellmich: That was a leading question, because I actually did know that. I think when I was chatting to Kelly before setting up this interview, your personal assistant, and she mentioned that, yeah, if the client doesn't have ProSelect, Steve will not work with them.

Steve Saporito: Well, they have to be committed to it. If they don't have it now, committed to at least consider buying it and to me, that's a reflection of whether they're actually serious about running a business in photography. Because for me, it equates to 'Do you have a professional camera?' If you don't have ProSelect, you don't really have a professional selling tool. You can't be selling-off Bridge, you can't be selling off Lightroom or Explorer, or any of those sort of programs, which is what a lot of people are doing.

Andrew Hellmich: Should we be showing our clients after the shoot only totally finished photos?

Steve Saporito: Not necessarily

Andrew Hellmich: I was going to ask you, what 'Fired For The Month' is? I've seen you mentioning that on your website and also in your emails to me, 'Fired For The Month '.

Steve Saporito: Fired For The Month, oh.

Andrew Hellmich: What is it?

Steve Saporito: Okay. So Fired For The Month is a new program that I'm running. It's basically where a photographic business engages me, and I walk in and take over the studio. So basically, as an owner, that photographer is fired as an owner, and I go in with Kelly, who is my team, and we go in and redesign the studio. We're in the middle of one right now. So what we've done is we've redesigned the studio, put in a projector, got the orientation of the room right, ordered new product. I've conducted interviews last week and hired people to do the things that the photographer is just not good at. So for the selling and the phone work, and we've done marketing to bring clients into the door, and we've done phone training, so within a six week period, that business should be pumping and making heaps of money.

Andrew Hellmich: I said it to you an email earlier, this should be a TV show.

Steve Saporito: It could almost be. It's almost a bit of, there's a bit of drama. There's been a few meltdowns and like, I'm in the middle of a reality TV show, but it's really exciting to see somebody's life change before my very eyes, and having that day to day interaction with this photographer and their business and the clients, absolutely love so much. Enjoy the experience so much more when everything's laid out and calm, and there's so much to buy. They really enjoy spending their money. Why should we get in the way of that, Andrew?

Andrew Hellmich: I agree, I agree.

Steve Saporito: Why should we get in the way?

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds fantastic. Steve, look, it's been an absolute pleasure. You've shared so much. Where can people find out more about you and what you're doing?

Steve Saporito: On my, if they go to my website, which is www.stevesaporito, that's S-T-E-V-E-S-A-P-O-R-I-T-O.com, it's quite a mouthful, isn't it?

Andrew Hellmich: I'll put links to that in the show notes.

Steve Saporito: If they look on the blog, there's a blog. I'm going to start blogging regularly about how 'Fired For The Month goes, because I'm sure there'll be lots of tips in there for people who are wanting to transform their studios and or, you know, it doesn't relate to a studio per se, but a photographic business.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I think it'd make exciting reading and great videos and photos as well for those blogs. I'd love to see that.

Steve Saporito: Yeah, and I can't wait to hear from you in a couple of weeks. How you, how those, um, how those Christmas cards and anniversary cards got received.

Andrew Hellmich: Geez, you must be a task master for the people that hire you. I feel guilty talking to you.

Steve Saporito: Well, half of it is building accountability.

Andrew Hellmich: I don't like that. I don't want to be accountable.

Steve Saporito: Well, you know, we're all accountable to our clients at some point, aren't we?

Andrew Hellmich: True. True. Steve, look, I imagine there's going to be a few comments and maybe even some questions following this interview. Are you happy to pop back to the show notes and answer those if they pop up?

Steve Saporito: Yeah. Cool. No problem.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic.

Steve Saporito: Send me a link and I'll go there.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. Mate, it's been an absolute pleasure. It really has, and I look forward to chatting to you again sometime.

Steve Saporito: Fantastic. Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Thanks, Steve, bye, bye.

Steve Saporito: Bye.