017: Matt & Katie – Portrait and Wedding Photography Success with Planning, Systems, Business Fundamentals, Creativity and the Real You

017: Matt & Katie – Portrait and Wedding Photography Success with Planning, Systems, Business Fundamentals, Creativity and the Real You

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I'm really excited to have Matt and Katie on the podcast today. To be totally honest, I don't know a lot about these guys, but I do know that they are super good at what they do as far as wedding photography. I know they're presenting seminars these days as well, but still, shooting is important to them. From what I do understand, Katie is the creative one, and that's the business side of the equation there. Now I don't know if I've got that exactly right, but I'm going to find going to find out today in our interview. So welcome to the podcast, guys.

Matt: Hey, Andrew, it's great to be here.

Katie: Yeah. Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: So guys, do you want to just maybe give us and the listeners a little bit of a rundown of, sort of where you guys are based and what you do? You know what your business is made of today?

Matt: Yeah, for sure, we both were based in Toowoomba for quite a while. Katie's born and bred from Toowoomba and I grew up in a little town outside Toowoomba called Crow's Nest. So we, Katie's been a photographer for close to 10 years now. Even though she's quite young, she's 27 and so it's interesting for her to be almost, in some ways, a veteran in the industry, but be so young, and I think sometimes people aren't quite aware of how long Katie's actually been a photographer. I've been a photographer for a much shorter period of time. My background was in video production, and then I saw the light and came over to photography because it's so much easier than video.

Andrew Hellmich: You got upset a few videographers with that comment.

Katie: No, I think he's upsetting the photographers.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, yeah, true. So in regard to your business today, how much of it is sort of workshops and training, and how much is wedding photography and whatever else you guys do?

Matt: This year, we're shooting a lot less to create more time for the teaching and the education side of what we love to do, but also to create a lot more time for Katie's charity work that she is doing now. It's kind of hard to make time for all of that when you're shooting 40 weddings a year.

Katie: Yeah, we just found that when you're shooting every single weekend and an opportunity came up to go overseas, if you, if you had a wedding booked-in, you just weren't able to go. So that's kind of why we've changed our focus a little bit and just met super, super passionate about helping other photographers as well. So he's super keen on the teaching part. But again, we, we both still love shooting weddings.

Matt: Yeah. And so that makes this year kind of a very different year for us. Last sort of three years, since starting Matt and Katie Photographers, we've been shooting about 40 weddings a year with that. And it's just, I know, I've just really found that, you know, I love photography, and we've found that we're good at it, but just really found that because of photography, we've been able to live a pretty amazing life, and our passion for helping others, we kind of feel, in some ways, it's almost a responsibility. It's something that we should do, that, you know, we could keep shooting 40 weddings a year for the next 20 years, but we have the opportunity to hopefully help hundreds, possibly even thousands, of photographers because of what we've learned over the years, and we kind of feel it's an important thing to do is to pass that knowledge on to others, so that they have the same opportunities that we've had to use photography to live a pretty great life, whatever that is, for everybody.

Andrew Hellmich: So okay, then, so what about, what would you say to the photographers out there that are, that have been established for quite a while, and they're seeing that so many other photographers now are going into that workshop thing, and they seem to be cashing-in on other photographers rather than pursuing their craft. Like, are you sort of getting that vibe from any other photographers?

Matt: Definitely, like, it's definitely interesting to get that reception, but I totally understand why we get it, because Matt and Katie Photographers, as it exists now, has only been around, like, we're coming up to three and a half years. Like we launched it in January of 2010 and so I totally see from, you know, long-term photographers, why they would kind of be maybe a bit suspicious of it. But the interesting thing is, is, like we started working for ourselves seven and a half years ago, prior to that, Katie studied for two years and worked for a couple of years as a press photographer. So Katie's almost, you know, for nearly 10 years, been a professional working photographer, making all of her income from photography. I started out with my video production company eight years ago, and so for seven and a half years now, we've been working for ourselves with no backup plan, which is always a good motivation to make things happen. And we've been fortunate enough to go through quite an interesting journey with our businesses as well, like starting with my video production company then Katie's portrait business, which was quite successful in Toowoomba. Then we launched a business called Shadow Play, which is the two of us teaming up, me to do video and Katie to do photos for weddings. And then three and a half years ago, we switched everything up just to focus solely on weddings and relaunched again as Matt and Katie Photographers, and so it's often when we get criticized because we seem new. It's exciting for us now, as we get these opportunities to explain to people that you know, we're not exactly new at this like we have made a hell of a lot of money from working for ourselves over the years, and I think we have a lot more experience and knowledge than I think a lot of people give us credit for.

Katie: I'd agree with that. I get that because I'm young. People don't think that I know what I'm doing, but having been doing it for 10 years, I kind of think, well, what else do I have to do to have had experience. It's like, I've done press photography, child portraiture, from newborns and families, you know, doing weddings, and now I'm doing a lot of the stuff overseas. It's like I've had, we've both had such a wide range of experiences and I just don't, I don't understand how people can make that judgment that we don't know what we're doing, or, you know, we're newbies, because if they actually got to know us, they'd know that we're actually not newbies.

Matt: I also understand, because there are, in many ways, you know, there is, unfortunately, the good and the bad when it comes to teaching and speaking and all of that sort of stuff. So I am, in some ways as suspicious as many long term photographers are in terms of, you know, it's, I guess it's like anything. There's good photographers out there and there's bad photographers, and there's ethical photographers and there's dodgy photographers. I think it's the same in like the workshop speaking arena as well is that, you know, there's some people who possibly shouldn't be charging money for their photography. And just the same as that, there are people who possibly, you know, shouldn't be putting themselves in that position as a teacher. It's definitely something that we take very seriously, the responsibility of actually teaching. And it's kind of, you know, a little quote that I like is our industry doesn't need more rock stars, it needs more teachers. And that's kind of the angle that we come at it from. It's like, if I'd never started my first business with my video production, I was actually halfway through my teaching degree at that point in time, and kind of had to make this decision to, you know, finish that off, or, you know, take, take that, you know, step out on my own. And I guess, also something a lot of people don't really know, because we don't talk about it very much, is, my mum was a teacher. My dad was a pastor. They were also missionaries for a lot of years in Papua New Guinea and Arnhem Land, and they really lived a life, you know. They've been married, you know, just over 50 years now, and they've spent that whole time serving others and my family as well, like my brothers and sisters, have always worked in jobs that are really giving jobs and helping other people. And so I guess from my point of view, it's like I almost don't really have a choice, you know, it's so in my blood to help other people and serve other people. And the combination of photography and business and speaking and doing all of that sort of stuff is ultimately what I found in the last sort of year or so, really is me finding my purpose on the planet. And so it's interesting to get criticized for that, but often I find that have to give people the benefit of the doubt that they probably don't know our history, they maybe haven't even looked into our history, and we often get lumped in with the fluffy rock stars who possibly shouldn't be, you know, being given the responsibility of teaching. And so it's quite interesting when you take our actual experience into consideration, take, like my family history into consideration, when you look at all of that, it 100% makes sense that this is the next step for us to take.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure, and look, to be honest with you, when I asked the question, I really wasn't directing it to Matt and Katie Photographers as teachers. It was more that I get this vibe that the more established photographers out there are saying to all the people that are going into training and teaching photography have got this attitude of "Why the hell are you guys teaching all the newbies, all the stuff that we've taken years to learn, and they just come in and flood the market and wreck it for the rest of us that know what we're doing."

Matt: That's an interesting take on it as well, I guess, because, like, I jump first to you know what we just talked about, because we do get a lot of criticism leveled directly at us, but I can like, I almost feel like, when we do our workshops, I feel like they should be packed out with photographers who've been in the business for more than five or 10 years, because the newer photographers, I think, have such an advantage in the sense of coming into the industry now. So many new photographers, they'd literally get to stand on the shoulders of everybody that's come before them. And it's often, I often, like, my heart goes out to established photographers and long-term photographers, because the changes that have come through not just film to digital, but it's like we often joke that, you know, Katie's at least had the experience of running a photography business pre-Facebook, you know, because with her portrait photography business, there was no Facebook. We used to advertise in a thing called the Yellow Pages for crying out loud. So I really feel and like we've had at our workshops photographers and I've personally coached and mentored photographers who've been in the industry for 10 years and are really struggling to evolve and adapt and compete, not just with new photographers coming into the industry, who are getting you know, you can blame the openness and everything that is going on in the industry at the moment for that, but I'm actually really thankful for it, like I know Katie had such a hard time getting help and getting advice when she was first starting out.

Katie: Yeah, when I first started out, I went skipping around to all the photographers in my area and moderating them were older guys, and anyway, I asked for help. And I just got such a, you know, cold reception from them. They weren't interested in sharing with me at all, helping me in any way, shape or form. And I remember one guy saying to me, "Oh, come back to me in five years, little girl." And I just thought, "Oh, like, really?"

Andrew Hellmich: That's hard.

Katie: Yeah. And that's kind of the industry that I started off at, like everyone was kind of kept you at arm's length, and was like, you're on your own. And while he's now not doing photography anymore, because he didn't evolve at the times, I decided from the very beginning that I would be the opposite of that. I don't think that there is anything gained by, you know, keeping things to yourself, all you can do by helping other photographers is raise the bar the whole industry, really, you know, it's, what's that saying?

Matt: Yeah, rising tide raises all ships.

Katie: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I really, I really do. I really do want to jump in and sort of get involved in the stuff that you guys are teaching and that get it, get a good idea of what photographers are missing out on and that you guys cover in your workshops. But Katie, can you give me just a general idea of what you guys cover that say maybe other photographer trainers or teachers wouldn't provide in their courses?

Katie: Okay, yeah, I think the way we approach our workshops currently is a really good way of looking at it. Matt's come up with this concept of looking at your business as links in a chain. And through doing this, it's, I guess it just breaks it down, that whole overwhelmingness feeling that you get as a photographer of "I don't have clients, why?", and there's just so many areas that you could look at that don't you know, you got so many things to focus on, and you don't even know where to start. So looking at it in little bite size chunks, and being able to break it down and look at each little individual area of your business is the way that we sort of approach things.

Andrew Hellmich: So are you guys actually teaching people how to shoot better, or how to run a better business

Katie: Both, yeah, so we do some, yeah, some of both, mainly the business stuff currently, but definitely teach how to do the posing of a wedding day and that type of thing, which I think as both a new photographer and an older photographer, both can benefit from seeing how other people shoot.

Matt: And we often say that, you know, it's everything that we cover is what we wish that we had have known when we started out. But we come at it from a very much of a I'm a problem solver by nature, and I find that the majority of photographers, and especially you with Katie's experience of it was interesting for us to me be running my video production business as Katie was building her photography business, and me being able to come of jump in and help with, like my problem solving and analytical skills to complement Katie's, you know, creativity, because, you know, it's, it's not a new discussion that photographers are mostly creative people and not necessarily problem solvers and analytical thinkers. That's not really news to anybody. And I found all of that sort of problem solving and helping Katie with that sort of stuff, and that's really the approach that we apply with our workshops is, it is so overwhelming, even with the you know, avalanche of free information that's available, I think that makes things overwhelming in its own way. And photographers don't really know where to start, and so we've spent a lot of time and with the way that my brain works with problem solving and analytical thinking, is just breaking photography businesses down into bite sized chunks so that we can give people really practical advice and really practical solutions to grow the business that they want to grow, which will ultimately give them the life that they really want.

Katie: I guess Matt's got a very different personality. We're pretty much polar opposites in personality. And I'd say that, like 99% of photographers are like me, and I call myself a la de da personality, you know, super creative. But when it comes to running a business, when I first started out, I was absolutely clueless, but very, very stubborn, and don't like being told what to do. And when I started my kids photography business, Matt offered to help me, and I was like, "No, I'm doing it my way." And you know, I constantly had I was putting in so much effort and spending hours and hours on each shoot and not having a very good return. And one day, I think, I spent about eight hours, all up from shooting to editing to the client, meeting with one family, and they walked away buying three, five by seven prints. And I think I had just that was when I had to swallow my pride and go to Matt and say, "Okay, you can help me now."

Andrew Hellmich: So just okay, were you guys already married at this stage?

Katie: Yes, yes, no, we Matt quit his job as his previous job, like, a couple of days before I got married. We both started our businesses then. But anyway, I went to Matt and I said, "Yeah, you can help me now." I'm very stubborn. We call it the Finn Stubborn Street, which is my maiden name. Anyway, he was able to come in and sit in on a sales session appointment of mine, and when, when it finished, he kind of went, "Oh, okay, do you want some feedback?" And I was like, "Not really." But he pointed out all these things that I was made such sense, but never occurred to me as a creative person. And in my next sales session went up to 1500 and then I was consistently doing over $2,000 per sales session after that. So I think he's been my secret weapon, if I'm honest, because he's super smart and can break things down like that, whereas I'm the super, super creative one, then I just like taking pretty pictures.

Andrew Hellmich: So Katie, can you talk me then through that point where, you know, when Matt sat in and it didn't go too well, what were you doing then that wasn't working?

Katie: Everything. I was, very close, first that, my first problem was I didn't actually have half the sample products on my price list. And it took me a while to work out why people weren't buying the things was because they couldn't see them. He pointed that out to me. It was very interesting, because at first I bought the, I had an image box from Seldex, and I had two on my price list. I had the small image box and a large image box. And anyway, I only had the sample of the small one, and every single client that I had come through would buy the small image box, not the large image box. And I never stitched the dots together that it was actually because they could touch and feel the small image box and the big image box they couldn't even see. So why would they fall in love with it if they can't even see it? So once we got a sample of that, every single client went up to the large image box, and I just felt like a bit of a goose.

Andrew Hellmich: That's great. And so what other changes did you make after Matt sat in on that appointment?

Katie: We did basically an overhaul of our whole strategy towards sales sessions. I'm pretty much like the least salesperson person, a person there is. I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to making people, I was the opposite. I probably give away more than I would actually sell, because that's my personality. But he made it really easy for me and basically scripted the whole sales session. So you know, it wasn't me selling, it was just me guiding the clients through the sales session? And I guess that took a lot of pressure off me, which was a good thing.

Andrew Hellmich: So just tell me then, are you the one doing the sales now to this day, or does Matt do the sales and you do the photos?

Katie: Well, now I guess we both do it. Yeah, we're mainly shooting weddings now, so not doing so many portrait sessions anymore, but either of us can tackle a portrait session, sales session with no problems.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so sorry, Matt said, what tips or, you know, I guess I'm looking for some, some genuine advice that we could give to listeners that are shooting portraits that are just like you and me. You know, I I'd love to give my stuff away, and I have a real problem selling it. And I know lots of photographers are in the same boat. So you know, how do we get past that?

Matt: Yeah, my advice is, and what really helped Katie? Because, you know, Katie's not a business person, not a salesperson, not really a confident person, like struggles with issues of anxiety and things like that. And so basically, what we've come to realize is that what makes us scared of selling, like the number of photographers you talk to, "I don't want to do in person sales, because I don't like selling", and that's a natural response, but I always look at it and go, "Well, why don't you like selling?" And it's because, generally, it's a fear thing. And then it's thinking about, well, what causes the fear, and ultimately, what causes the fear is unpredictability. Okay, so whenever we walk into an unpredictable situation, we can't help but feel nervous or a bit scared or fear. And so what my goal became was, "Okay, how can we make our sales sessions as predictable as possible?" Because otherwise it's just completely random, and you're walking in there, whether you're an established photographer, a new photographer, and the clients are in charge of everything, the clients are guiding the sales session, and you're just trying to keep up and react. And so we sat down, and I asked said to Katie, and this is what I would recommend to every single photographer to do. I said, "Okay, if you had your way and you had your ideal scenario, what products would you have your clients leaving with, in order to reach your ideal sales target?" And so we sat down, and, you know, we talked about, and Katie said, "Well, if I was making 1500 to $2,000 from every sale, I would be absolutely pumped." And then we sat down and said, "Okay, well, what products can we sell in order to hit that sales target, and how can we then guide every single client towards that goal?" And so my advice to every photographer out there is sit down and work out what your ideal sale would be, based on your numbers and your figures and your overheads and all of that sort of thing, and then sit down and go, "Okay, well, what combination of products can I guide people towards in order to hit my, the dollars of the sale that I want to make.", because there's no point in talking about, like a discussion of pricing, because that's always the first question that photographers always ask is, you know, "How much should I charge for XYZ product?" My recommendation now, our recommendation is start with a strategy first, because once you get the strategy lockdown of "I want to sell people an image box or an album plus a 20 by 30 inch canvas, and I want to try and do that every single time", then you can play with the actual numbers and the dollars to increase your price over time or tweak that. But if you just start with dollars and don't have a firm foundation of a strategy, then you're just going to be fumbling around and the clients are going to control everything.

Katie: And I think..

Matt: Does that make sense?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Totally, yeah. It's a great way to approach it, fantastic.

Matt: Yeah. And because that's what I always find, like photographers are obsessed with photos and pricing. You know?

Andrew Hellmich: How much is an eight by 10?

Matt: Yeah, how much is an eight by 10? And I prefer to say, "Well, what do you actually want to sell people? Like, how much do you want to make? What do you want to sell them? What do people actually want to put in their home?" And we kind of, whenever we talk about portrait sales, we kind of try and challenge the traditional thinking on portrait sales. And because the traditional thinking is, you know, you got to have a projector. You've got to show those images to clients really big, so that they buy big. You know, it's buy big or go home, type of mentality. And what we found one was, not everybody can fit a giant 30 by 40 inch canvas or bigger into their home, and not every client is actually comfortable with having themselves that big on a wall. So we're actually, a lot of photographers are trying to sell a product to people that they don't actually want. And so we sat down and thought, "Okay, what's a sized canvas that every single home can fit? Whether they're a young couple who's just got married and they're in a tiny little unit, or whether they're a family with a bigger, more modern home, what's a size that every single one of them can fit?" And we actually went to friends’ houses and looked around and asked some questions and did our research, and we just came up with a 20 by 30 inch canvas. No matter how small your house is, you can feature a 20 by 30 inch canvas somewhere in the home as a minimum. And then we thought, wouldn't it be great to also offer some type of keepsake product, like something that's not necessarily on display all the time. And we came up with the idea of the beautiful image boxes from Seldex and an album from Vision Art. And so then what we did was we sat down and said, "Okay, let's price those two products exactly the same." So an image box or an album are priced exactly the same and contain exactly the same number of photos. Okay? So Katie would then do the usual slideshow using ProSelect, which is like the go to awesome program for portrait sales, and would show them the slideshow. Mums would cry. Everybody would love the photos. And then Katie would walk through her products, and she would show them the image box. They touch and feel it. They fall in love with it. They'd ooh and aww over it. Then she'd show them the album they'd touch and fill that Ooh, and aww over it. And then Katie would take them off them, and then say to them, "Which one do you prefer? Which do you like? The image box or the album?" And of course, most dads who are in the sessions, what's the first question they're going to ask?

Andrew Hellmich: How much?

Matt: What's the price difference? How much? And I said to Katie, what you say every single time is they're both priced exactly the same, and then shut up, because then you don't have to say a price. And then their decision comes and then say, "Well, which one do you like?" And then their decision and their discussion as a couple comes down to, "Well, I like the box because we could display the photos, you know, you know, on the walls. We could have leave some in the image box." "No, I actually prefer the album because, you know, just so we've always had photo books since we were kids, and my mom and dad always had photo books, and that's what I want for our kids." All of a sudden, they're rationalizing in their own mind why they like that product, and essentially, they've already bought it. So in the, in marketing speak, or sales speak, or whatever, you know that's a soft sell, they've made a soft commitment already to a product. And then what you do is, then, as you're going through and choosing their favorite photos, you've got a goal to aim for. So see how we're talking about guiding, even though there's some like psychological salesy stuff in the foundation and in the script and that kind of thing, ultimately just guiding people to where you would like them to go. Because both are beautiful products, the image box and an album are gorgeous, and it makes their decision. What I love about that approach is it makes their decision about personal preference. So does that make sense?

Andrew Hellmich: It does. Yes. Even though the album would cost the studio, say, twice as much, or maybe three times as much as the box, you still price them the same price to the client.

Matt: Yeah, that's right, because then they're not thinking, the less they can think and use their imagination, the better. Because often what happens a lot of, lot of portrait photographers, and I saw it with Katie when that, you know, I sat in on that first session. A lot of portrait photographers are making their clients, forcing them to make a lot of decisions. And what happens is the clients get decision fatigue, and by the time the photographer gets around to the client making like money decisions, the clients are worn out. Their brains are a little bit fried because they've been making fairly emotional decisions, like choosing their favorite photos of their kids. I don't know, do you have kids, Andrew?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I do. I've got two boys.

Matt: Yeah. So I think put yourself in, you know, that situation of having to choose photos that you're so emotionally attached to, you know, it's tough, you know, and you're choosing between ones that you're keeping and ones that you're not going to keep, so bringing that kind of product choice decision earlier in the process, and giving yourself kind of something to aim for means that they've already kind of made a purchasing, a soft purchasing decision before they're too worn out from the whole process.

Katie: Sure, and obviously it's, it's super important to have the product that you're trying to sell there in the studio as well.

Katie: Yes, as I learned.

Andrew Hellmich: So, yeah, so guys, I just want to ask Katie a quick question. But can you just make sure that Katie's as close to the mic as you are?

Matt: Yeah, I'm a bit, I'm a bit..

Katie: Matt's a lot louder.

Matt: I'm allowed.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so, Katie, where, before you met Matt, then so you were happily on your way with your own business. Is that the way it was?

Katie: No, actually, when I met Matt, should I tell a story of how we met?

Katie: Yeah, you got to now.

Katie: Okay, so Matt and I got we started dating, engaged and married, all within three months.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, super quick.

Katie: Super quick. Well, um, yes, yes, and no, I had actually had a crush.

Matt: You obviously haven't met me, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: I've watched a couple of your videos, man, I know you're a smash.

Katie: I actually had a crush on Matt for since I was in grade eight, but he didn't know I existed.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry. So you guys went to the same school together?

Katie: No, no, he was actually the computer nerd at our school. I went to an all-girls school, and he was, like, the only guy in the whole school that was under, like a no, 50.

Matt: And before, like I am, I am not a pervert.

Andrew Hellmich: Hang on hang on, hang-on!

Matt: Because I need to clear that up. There's a nine year gap between Katie and I.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Matt: But when she was at the school, I didn't know that she existed.

Katie: Honest, but he didn't know I existed, but I just had this massive crush on him, and so I'd sneak into the library just to look at him, because his office had a glass window and I could look in. And Matt also volunteered on the local radio station, and he had a show called Matt on Monday.

Matt: Matt on Monday.

Katie: And I would tape Matt on Monday, and I'd listen to it Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I was pretty much obsessed with him. One day, I was listening to Matt on Monday and it was Valentine's Day. And this is me in about grade 10, now fully in love with him still. Anyway, I was listening to Matt on Monday, and he proposed on air to a girl.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh really?

Katie: Yeah, I was gutted. I cried, asked my mum. And anyway, I moved on. I dated another guy named James, who's really nice, he was fine. But anyway, after, I don't know, after school, I, you know, I went and studied photography for two years at the TAFE in Toowoomba, and then I was actually a press photographer at the time when Matt actually turned up to my cousin's house one day, and I'm like, "Hey, how you doing?" He's like, "Good." And I'm like, "Aren't you married?" And he was like, "Oh no." He's like, that "That whole thing was a prank." "But that wasn't funny." And he's like, "Yeah, well, I know that now." He essentially had taken himself off the market. It wasn't April Fool's Day, it was Valentine's Day, and no one got the joke.

Matt: With the 20, with the 20 people that listened to my radio show. I took myself off the market.

Katie: So anyway, then I was like, "Sorry, do you want to get married?" And he said, "Gee, you're forward." And they said, "Okay, you have no idea." And three months later, we're married.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, so you still had a crush on him?

Katie: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: That is awesome. Yeah. You know, from you, it sounds cute and sweet, but it was the other way around, it'd be like scary.

Katie: What's scary? What was scary, there's a music festival in Toowoomba called Easterfest. And when I was a press photographer, I got to play with this, I think it was 400 mil lens or something like, it was massive lens that was, you know, nearly bigger than me. And I had to carry it on around, on a monopod, because I couldn't use my arms to lift it, was so heavy. Anyway, two years, no two or three years after I married, I was looking through some old Easterfest photos, and I brought up these photos that I'd taken of Matt through the crowd, and Matt walked in, and he's like, "Oh, when you take that?" And I'm like, "Oh, I think it was 2003 " and he was just looked at me, and he was like, "What? If I didn't know, if I wasn't married to you, I'd be so freaked out right now." And yeah, so I am a stalker.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Katie: What was the question?

Andrew Hellmich: That doesn't matter, so I also read Matt that Katie was your first girlfriend. Is that right?

Matt: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. That is awesome.

Matt: A late bloomer, Katie calls me.

Katie: The question, I think, was, was I running my own business?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, instead of jumping into that look, so I've got a little bit of the story. So you finish school, you go to, you study photography, you become a press photographer. Is that for a local newspaper?

Katie: Yeah, yeah. I was the youngest in the photography team. I worked with Kev, Nev, Dev and Deb.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. Did you have a nickname too?

Katie: No, no, I was just Katie. I just kind of rectify everything happening there, but it was a great job, and it really, I really thankful for my time as a press photographer, because I learned so much, each day you turn up and you were thrown into every different situation that you could imagine. You sometimes have eight to 10 jobs on one day, and you'd go from like a house fire to the mayor's office to photographing a baby koala. You know, it's, you really were challenged and as a photographer, and you had to sort of come back with the shot no matter what. And if you didn't, you get in trouble, and so I always got the shot.

Andrew Hellmich: So and why did you throw that in? Or what was the progression?

Katie: I love that job, and I love the people I worked with, but I guess seeing Matt, he quit his job at the school that I attended, he quit his job as a computer nerd, and..

Matt: I quit it voluntarily as well.

Katie: And he started his video production business. And I guess just seeing him running his own business, thinking, "Oh yeah, I'd like to work for myself as well. "And I guess we both set up on our own separate paths, even though we're married, and it took a while for us to come together, and when we work together, as you know, Matt's a videographer and me as a photographer, it still wasn't super great, because it's like, who wants to be married to a videographer, joking. But when he became a photographer and we're both working towards the same goal, it definitely became a lot easier. But I wouldn't change any step in our journey. It's definitely everything.

Andrew Hellmich: So Katie, so you, you guys get married, and then you, you leave the newspaper job, start your own business. So is that as a, you're just shooting anything and everything, or have you got a target in mind? You thinking, I want to be a wedding photographer or a portrait photographer?

Katie: I had no idea what I wanted to do. I can be quoted saying "I would never touch a wedding with a 10 foot barge ball", which is kind of funny now that I'm a wedding photographer, but the idea of shooting a wedding freaked me out. So I actually got asked by a friend if I had any photos of newborns to put in baby shop. She just opened a baby shop, and I said, "No, I don't have any, but I will." And so I rounded up friends with babies and photographed their little ones and put canvases on the wall in this baby shop, and before I knew it, I kind of had a fully-fledged kids photography business. And it was, it was great. I wouldn't say that I'm a naturally good newborn. You know, some people are super maternal, like I've seen Kelly Brown with a newborn, and she just sort of picks it up, falls asleep. Like my newborn sessions are like the total opposite. I think I cried more than the baby afterwards. It was kind of a disaster. But I guess that comes from not really thinking about where I wanted to head. I just sort of found myself in newborn photography, and it wasn't until later on that they sort of found that I kind of wanted to go back more into photographing things, a bit more documentary. And we did that with kids photography, sort of approach for a bit, but then we started shooting weddings together. And yeah, it takes a while to come to work out where you want to go with your photography. And we finally found out where we're to be good.

Katie: So what I'm wrestling with is, I can imagine your parents, and I don't want to act like I'm your parents. So you guys get married.

Katie: Yep

Andrew Hellmich: You both quit your jobs.

Katie: Yep

Andrew Hellmich: You've got no business direction whatsoever.

Katie: No

Andrew Hellmich: What were you thinking as a married couple, seriously, what were you thinking?

Katie: Yeah, with no plan B. I guess "we weren't thinking" that doesn't sound good.

Matt: I am like I had a plan at least.

Andrew Hellmich: Did you tell Katie?

Matt: Because I was fortunate enough, like, my boss at the school was just awesome. Like, I really credit him for allowing me to get into video production in the first place. And I kind of set myself a six month plan. I dropped back to part time at my job to give me, you know, four days a week with a real job, and then one day a week to kind of work on my business, plus weekends and spare time. And so I had that kind of six month period that I set myself the task of making as much from my video production as I was in my day job. And to take that even further, what I did was I would transfer my regular pay straight away into another account, and I set myself the rules of not being allowed to touch it. And so if I had a slow month with my video production, I ate magic noodles and had to just suck it up. And so I kind of just flipped a switch in my mind that. Like, if you want to, you know, possibly because at that stage, it had been nearly 10 years that I'd been working at the school, so I was ready for something new, and that little, that little exercise of that six month period and fortunately, what happened was, you know, quit my job, and then the first three months of the year, which because I didn't have much experience, and I was working with, you know, corporations and business, nobody like they hardly do anything in January and February, and so my newly launched video production business just took a nosedive. And fortunately, I had that buffer that I'd set aside from the money from my day job for us to fall back on. And then I just look at it as you know, after three or four months, the nose dive kind of pulled up, and we haven't looked back ever since.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome, awesome. So then, so you guys went into business, then together, after a while, shooting weddings together. That's right?

Katie: Yeah

Matt: Yeah. So we went from I was doing my video stuff. Katie was doing her portrait stuff, and then we kind of thought..

Katie: Matt got sick of doing commercial video stuff and decided he wanted to be a wedding videographer. And when your husband wants to be a wedding videographer, you have to be a wedding photographer. I took up weddings even though I said I'd never do it. But I actually enjoyed shooting weddings, and even at the start, I found it scary, but it's definitely something I know. I just love wedding days.

Andrew Hellmich: So can you give me an idea of what one of your first packages were and how much?

Matt: Yeah, when we launched Shadow Play, which is the complete like, as you get to know us, like, is the complete opposite of Matt and Katie, it was all kind of ..

Katie: What we thought we should be

Matt: Yeah, what we thought we should do, like, at the time, like the real kind of icons were, you know, Jerry Ghionis and Yervant and Rocco, and that sort of much more kind of epic wedding style. And so we kind of thought that that's what we were meant to do. But in terms of pricing, we were very much encouraged not to, you know, not to start doing weddings. And we were told, you know, "Whatever you do, don't come into the market and be cheap."

Katie: And don't undercut other photographers.

Matt: And that was really drilled into us right from the get go. So at that point in time, Katie had shot one wedding for a friend for free, and another wedding for another friend for $250 back in the day, like shot half on film. And Katie was ready to retire after doing that as a student. And so we came into it, and the very first wedding we booked as Shadow Play was for $8,800, without video. That was just photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. How did you do that? Yeah, how?

Matt: Just like, it was crazy. We had a $13,000 package at this time, and this is the difference between Katie and I. Like, Katie always says that, well, what do you always say about confidence and talent?

Katie: You've got more confidence than talent, confidence.

Matt: Because you got, like, knowing my history with my video production company, like I was pulling gigs, like, for, you know, corporate businesses for $20,000 for, like, a corporate training video when I had never made a corporate training video before in my life, and I just backed myself at being able to figure it out. You know, I was very good at communicating value and creating perceived value, and then I would figure out how to deliver on that afterwards.

Katie: In saying that I wouldn't recommend that to photographers. We probably went about it the total wrong way. It's good to come out and not undercut other photographers. I was just terrified of that because there are a lot of cranky photographers in our area that were almost like threatening, you know, like you don't want to undercut them or they'll eat you alive. But in saying that, I wouldn't recommend that for newbie photographers to come here and at that level and charge that. I'm just lucky that we, we had a year, we had a year, and I could back myself in doing that as well.

Andrew Hellmich: So why not? Why don't you recommend it to new photographers now?

Matt: I, well, I think, think we came out charging too much, like we developed a reputation, and that the feedback that we got from people that we asked when they wouldn't book us in the area and amongst you know, because, you know, Toowoomba is not a real big town, we found that we had developed the reputation of, I, you know, Matt and Katie, or Shadow Play is awesome, but expect to pay through the nose for them, which is fine, but finding 40 couples a year who want to spend, you know, almost a starting price of $6,000 for photography when you are just starting out is quite a difficult ask.

Katie: And you put a lot of pressure on yourself as well.

Matt: So it's kind of, it's that sort of, you know, supply and demand and economies of scale and all of that kind of, you know, nerdy financial talk that comes into it as well. And so we found we weren't, and this is the other thing is, we might have been charging a lot, but we didn't have a freaking clue what we were doing. That's the thing. And so I see photographers criticized for both, you know, criticized for not charging enough, and then criticized for, you know, writing checks that they can't necessarily cash.

Katie: Lucky we could cash in.

Matt: We were just fortunate that we had a year before we started shooting those weddings. And you know, we're, we're able to pull it off. But so that's, that's the, that's kind of the flip side of it.

Matt: I've got a couple of questions, so just tell me. What do you mean by you had a year? What? Why did you have a year?

Katie: Until that, that really expensive wedding, until we shot it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay

Matt: Yeah, because, you know, you book a wedding and then it's, you know, six to 12 months, away. So, yeah, that's what I mean by we had a year to kind of figure it out. But it, um, it puts so much pressure on us, and we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as well, and we didn't have the systems in place in our business, and so we just found ourselves in just a miserable place of getting behind on processing the photos, getting behind on delivering albums. And so here we were charging this, you know, quite large sum of money, and then taking four months for people to see their photos.

Katie: We made a lot of mistakes, but you know, as I said, I wouldn't change any of the mistakes that we've made, because we can use all the mistakes that we've made over the years to help others not make the same mistakes. So I guess it's all learning curve.

Katie: Sure. So Matt, I want to, Matt, I want to ask you about communicating value. I want to know what you mean by that and how to do it. But before that, Katie, can you for overseas listeners, can you just describe Toowoomba for us? You know how big it is, and just give people an idea of what we're talking about?

Matt: Speak slowly.

Katie: Toowoomba is a big country town. It's about two hours inland from Brisbane, and, yeah, it's big country town. It's the type of place that you couldn't go downtown without bumping into every second person that you know. And how many people would there be?

Matt: Like, it's like, probably 130,000 or more now, but back then, yeah, 100,000.

Katie: Yeah. So, yeah, big, big enough, but that you have a cinemas and stuff. But that's small enough that if you duck to the shops and your PJs, you would totally get caught out.

Matt: And then, so well, most of your weddings in the early days in Toowoomba, or were they, did you drive to Brisbane?

Katie: Actually, yeah. In the early days, there were a few in Toowoomba, a few in Brisbane. But it didn't take us long to be shooting all over the place. We've shot, we've shot from Mission Beach to Melbourne and all around Australia and quite a few number of overseas weddings. But in the beginnings, I think it was definitely more locally based.

Matt: Yeah, because we never really market ourselves as Toowoomba photographers. And yeah, just early on, we just found ourselves like we were contemplating moving to Byron Bay at one stage, because I think we were down there every second weekend, and we just kind of, and I think with that kind of pricing at the time, that was like three or four times what many photographers in Toowoomba were charging for a wedding, there would have only been, you know, a handful of photographers kind of ..

Matt: We weren't shot and burn $250 wedding

Matt: Yeah, yeah. And so I think we very much priced ourselves like that first wedding. We talked to the couple, and they were choosing between us, Excite and Studio Impressions.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, right. So looking at the big names around.

Matt: Yeah, and looking, you know, they obviously had that kind of budget, and that was kind of a rarity in Toowoomba at the time, for people to be kind of hitting those numbers, like there were definitely some, but not very many.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I'd imagine that with your work and the way you guys shoot. I mean, between those, you and those other two studios, .your work would certainly stand. Each one of those is different type of work, isn't it?

Matt: Yeah, and we are probably the cheapest by comparison as well. You know, like that's, yeah, at $8,000 we're possibly a bargain for them.

Andrew Hellmich: And so what do you charge now?

Matt: We list our starting price on our website at 2800 but that's just for coverage of eight hours, and us turning up to the wedding to photograph it and then, but our actual starting price, and there's very good reasons why we do it that way, our actual starting price is 4300 and includes the eight hours coverage, plus a minimum of 300 high res images on a disc.

Andrew Hellmich: So you are actually doing shoot and burn if someone wants it.

Matt: Yeah, last year, we did 20 weddings for 4300 and they just got the disc and 20 with an album.

Katie: Out of the, sorry. So 20, just run those numbers by me again. Sorry, 20?

Matt: Sorry, 20 weddings that you could class as a shoot and burn wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: And then another 20 with an album.

Matt: And then another 20, so 40 total.

Andrew Hellmich: Split right down the middle.

Matt: Yeah, it was interesting when I looked at the figures, because just one of those discussions on Facebook, "Nobody wants albums anymore." Everybody wants the disc. And it's interesting to go back and look, and I think if we're in a different situation, because for the last few years, we've only met clients over Skype as well. So that means that we don't actually get to put a beautiful album in their hands and they get to touch and feel it and fall in love with it. I think our numbers for albums would be a lot better if we, you know, if we had that possibility. But shooting so much outside of Toowoomba really meant that, you know, we didn't get to actually meet a lot of clients in person, and we would just do everything over Skype.

Andrew Hellmich: So would you actually show the client the album on Skype?

Matt: Yeah, and we would, we would, um, we would have a video that we could send them. We basically thought we can't put it in their hands. What's the next best thing is to create a video of it and some nice photos of the album as well. And Katie would do a little bit of a price is right demonstration on Skype as well. But that doesn't really tend to do it justice.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. All right, Matt, you've got to answer this question. So communicating value. So what do you mean by that, and how do we do it?

Matt: For sure. So ultimately, whether clients are going to pay you what you think you're worth and what you're charging comes down to creating perceived value. And early on, the reason why we're able to kind of kick start things pretty well with Shadow Play is, and I can say, I'll send you the link so you can have look at it, maybe link it to people who want to check it out. And it's a little bit, you know, people might giggle at it now.

Katie: I do giggle at it.

Matt: And Katie giggles at it now, but we created like an absolute killer promo video, and that's what people would see before they would come to see us, and we would also play it to them as well, in that, you know, the consultation when they're coming to check us out. And so we were able to through that probably look like better photographers than we actually were at the time, but it created a lot of perceived value. I think there's, you know, in the last couple of years, I've just seen a lot of photographers who will buy, like, a Pro Photo Blog and whack that online and maybe put a tree logo on it as well, and then kind of scratch their head as to why the business isn't coming in. It's ultimately photography is not a necessity. Professional photography is definitely not a necessity. And so if you want to sell something to people, that isn't a necessity, it has to be a want. And in order to get people to pay the kind of money that most wedding photographers want to make, we have to communicate a very high level of perceived value, and we can do that through having a kick ass, well designed, attractive, easy to use website. Whenever I'm coaching people, or whenever we talk to our workshop attendees. Because when you look at it like most photographers are going to be putting in quite a lot of marketing effort into their business. Often that will be a mixture of free marketing and paid advertising. And oftentimes what happens is photographers are putting in all of that effort only to have people land on a website, which is that's the purpose of all of the marketing is to get people to visit our websites these days, and then the visitors land on the website. And the website is average. It looks the same as everybody else. Maybe it's hard to use. It doesn't stand out. It doesn't create an impact. And all of those hours and hours that they've put into their marketing, and lots of dollars that people can tend to put into advertising is all kind of negated by a website that doesn't do the job for them that they really want it to be doing. So, you know, those are a couple of ways for perceived value, but whatever the implementation of it is, whether it's a video or a kick ass website or a really great About Page, or having 20 years of experience or having awards, you know, there's a long list of things that contribute to perceived value, and we have to tick as many of those boxes as we possibly can. And so with Shadow Play back in the day, we just thought, "Well, we're completely new at this. We're competing against, you know, so many other photographers, not just in Toowoomba and in Brisbane." So we have to come up with things that we can do to communicate that perceived value and that video that we had really did an amazing job for us, even back then, at communicating that we possibly had the experience that we didn't actually have at the time, but our perceived value was through the roof, even though we didn't have a clue what we were doing.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so I love everything that you've just said then, and I can see that you guys are doing that with your video and obviously with your website too now. So what about listeners to the podcast that they've got some awards. They know they've got great camera skills. They can shoot a wedding. Well, they've been doing it for a while. They know they're better than the other guy down the street. How do they get that across to the client that's coming to see them without looking like a tosser. Like, do we have to go and make a video and have the video, like you don't want to start talking the third person, because that sounds ridiculous, too.

Katie: I just think these days, the way to stand out and find the ideal client is just to be yourself. You know your personality is what's going to draw people to you. You know, because I, you know, most people want to shoot people similar to them. For us, we like shooting really easygoing, laid back, relaxed weddings, and that's because we're easygoing, laid back, relaxed people. Shadow Play was the total opposite of that. Is very, very intense, and not exactly what we should have been doing at the time, but now that we've found where we're meant to be with Matt and Katie Photographers, you know, we are attracting people like us. So I think you know your personality is your secret weapon that a lot of people don't use to their advantage. I always jump on websites, and the first thing I do on a photographer's website is go to the About page, because I want to know who they are. And I think there's too so many photographers out there that aren't even putting out there who they are, and it's like you're asking people to hire you to be a part of the most important day of their lives, and you're not even willing to tell them anything about yourself? So you don't need to look like a total wanker, as you put it, like holding an award on that page, like hey, even though I think you are. But you know, it's like, if you're not willing to share yourself with them, why are they going to connect with you and want you on their wedding day, I think, yeah that's my thought/

Matt: And we very much, especially with Matt and Katie. You know, as you land on our site, the first thing you see is us, and we're not necessarily, you know, we don't recommend to everybody to do that, but we sat down one day and had a chat, and we thought, "Okay, apart from our photos", you know, because we, we don't feel that we're the best photographers around. We think we do a great job with our style of photography, and we do an awesome job for our clients, but compared to the talent that's out there, I honestly, I don't think that when it comes to weddings, that, that we're really up there and we said to each other, said, "Okay, what other reasons can we give somebody to book us apart from our photos?" So and we even said, "What if we didn't even get to show any of our photos to clients? What reasons can we give them to book us?" And that's kind of why we brought our personalities to the forefront, for that reason, and to also help us stand out as well. Three and a half years ago, when we launched Matt and Katie Photographers, we were scared silly about putting ourselves on the front of our on our site, because we thought that people would think that, you know, we're a couple of tosses and up ourselves. And who do we think that we are? But that combination of bringing our personality to the forefront and essentially saying, "Hey, we're easygoing, relax people. We're going to be good value to have around on your wedding day. We're not going to boss you around like your mum and dad's wedding photographer did, and we happen to take great photos as well, and are going to document your day really well." It's kind of that combination of both of those. And when I visit most photographers websites and see that they still just have one photo of themselves that could be used on the dust jacket of their book that they write one day, and it's just a bit of a standard kind of author headshot, or maybe they're holding a camera to remind people that they're a photographer. You can take that so much further to communicate who you are as a person, and your hobbies and your interests and your passions in life, which are going to connect with your ideal clients, passions and interests, and give you something else to talk about, apart from a business transaction.

Andrew Hellmich: Sothis, this is what you're saying that photographers that want to succeed, this is what their website should be doing, even before the client comes to meet them in their in their studio or their house?

Katie: Totally, I don't get asked. You know, "Don't you hate the client meetings for the first time?", and I'm just like, "No", because we're putting ourselves out there. And you know, it's we've got a variety of stuff about us out there, and we're doing so much work before we even get to that point of the client meeting. Once we turn up to the client meeting. It's just like meeting old friends for coffee, or, you know, over Skype for a date. You know, we already have things in common because we put ourselves and our interest out there that they can be like, "Oh, you've got a cat. I've got a cat", you know, or whatever it is. "You like skydiving. I like skydiving."

Matt: And you guys have been trying, "you guys have traveled."

Katie: Yeah and then it's not just about the wedding and the transaction of how much is it going to cost, and this type of thing. They're already convinced that they want you as their wedding photographer. And the meeting is just to make sure that we don't have two heads.

Matt: Yeah. And because, like, a lot of photographers are waiting until the client meeting to bring across that sort of personality and show that they're going to be, you know, easy going on the day, and they're going to be good to have around and fit in with, you know, all of the guests and all of that sort of thing. We decided to bring that to the forefront on our website right from the get go, so that we're kind of, our website is actually doing like 90% of the job for us. And we kind of look at it and go, "Well, isn't that what your website should do?" You know, it's the focal point of all of your marketing and all of your advertising. As a photographer, why kind of let the website slack off and have to pick up that slack later on in the process. So we put, even though it seems a little bit fluffy and silly and all of that sort of stuff on the surface, when you land on our site, it's all there for very specific strategic reasons, with quite a lot of thinking actually has gone into it.

Matt: Honestly, it's a credit to you guys. And for listeners listening in at the moment, you've got to go and check out, check out the blog. I will put links to it in the show note, but you want to tell everyone how to get there.

Matt: Yeah, it's just mattandkatieblog.com.au.

Andrew Hellmich: I did actually go to Matt and Katie. I think Matt and katie.com and I got sent to the blog anyway, so it's pretty cool.

Matt: Yeah, that's right, and like when we talk to photographers, we're like, you know, "We're not necessarily encouraging you to slap yourself right on the front of your site. We're not necessarily encouraging you to make a Glee miming video or put on a wedding dress and make a spoof video. But take some steps from just having one generic kind of standard photo and five paragraphs of text that a lot of people won't actually read and is not connecting with people as well as it could take a few steps from where you are now towards showing more of your personality, showing more of your interests, communicating more of who you are, and then, over time, see how that goes." And because we just made the decision, you know what? There are so many photographers coming into the industry. This is even three and a half years ago. We're like, it is so competitive, and it's going to get even more competitive. Our goal is to stand out no matter what. That's kind of the strategy behind a lot of what we do. And if that means making a spoof video to make fun of everything that we're not as photographers, then that's what we'll do. If it takes putting ourselves on the front of the website, if it takes making a Glee miming video like you would not believe like Glee's not as popular as it used to be. Sorry Katie. But back when Glee was like, kind of massive, the number of clients that in their email that they would send to us would say, "As soon as we saw your Glee video, we knew we had to have you as our wedding photographers." You know, and also, there will be other clients that would look at that and go, "Man, I don't want these idiots anywhere near my wedding."

Matt: Sure. And they're not the clients you want obviously.

Matt: That's exactly right.

Katie: Absolutely.

Matt: Yeah. But our goal was, you know, stand out no matter what. And it's pretty amazing that even three and a half years later, I think you know what we created then, and we kind of feel we should update it, because we're a bit sick of it, but it still works. That's the amazing thing. It still works.

Katie: Actually funny, because we made that after we'd just gotten back. I think it was in London or something. And you know, when you arrive home from a trip to Europe, it's kind of a bit of a downer. So we're just being silly anyway.

Matt: Yeah, and then we just thought, "We'll just then leave it." And you can see, over time, we've added more and more videos there so that people can get to know us even more. And just to connect with people.

Katie: You have to watch someone me pranking my brother. I think it's my all-time favorite.

Matt: So it's all its ultimately about connection. That's why, that's why we do it, connection and standing out.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. Now, before we get to these 10 quick questions, what I wanted to ask you mentioned that the website should be doing all the heavy lifting for you, but you also talked about getting people to the website. Can you give me one or two good ways to get people to the website that you guys are using, or that you're teaching?

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that faces so many photographers is that so overwhelming to know, you know what to do these days, it's almost like we're in the opposite of what Katie experienced, you know, 10 years ago, where there wasn't much information. Now there's almost too much information, and everybody's doing everything slightly differently. But probably our biggest marketing tool that we use is online slideshows. So we use a piece of software for every single client. We make them an online slideshow, which they can watch themselves, but they can also share it amongst their social network. And whether it's an online slideshow or a blog post, what we always encourage photographers to do is give your client something that can go viral in their circle of friends. So it's not going go, a wedding slideshow is not going to go viral Gangnam Style, but it can go viral in their circle of friends and be seen by hundreds of people every wedding, so that, if client, if photographers aren't doing online slideshows, we would strongly, strongly recommend that. We have booked weddings overseas because someone in another country saw an online slideshow from their friend's wedding.

Katie: So are these slideshows just visible to the public, or you have like them locked down for that client?

Matt: They're not locked down, but they are, you know, behind the scenes, so that they're not on the front of our site, and we don't post them on our, on our site, because to have clients or potential clients or visitors to your website watch a 10 or 15 minute slideshow is pretty counterproductive. That's pretty big time investment for somebody to make when they first land on your website. There's better ways to make a first impression than that, but it's just a link that we send to our clients for them to watch the slideshow and then the second usage of them is really awesome. So when we get a wedding inquiry through and they say, "Hey, we're getting married on my mom's farm. We'd love to talk to you guys and see your prices, blah, blah, blah." We can then go into our archive of weddings, pull out a slideshow that's our favorite farm wedding, and we can email that to them in our inquiry response email. So as well as being great marketing for us, as the couple spread the slideshow around all over the place, it's a really good tool that is a booking tool as well, because photo set to music is a lot more emotional than just a stock, standard website or a standard blog post, and the purpose with that is for people to be emotionally connected to the photos. And often the feedback we'll hear from couples once they booked us is that they got emotional or they even cried during this slideshow of strangers to them. And what that does is puts clients in the frame of mind that, "Holy cow, I'm getting emotional and tearing up looking at the wedding photos of complete strangers. Imagine what we're going to feel when Matt and Katie show us our wedding photos."

Andrew Hellmich: I know I've got about a thousand listeners at the moment going, Andrew, ask them the name of the software.

Matt: The best one that we found is there's a few options, but the best one that we found is Sound Slides. So I'm pretty sure it's just soundsslides.com we were using another one called Show It Web up until recently, but I think some kind of update to flash broke that, but maybe it's been fixed in the last couple of weeks, but Show It is they've discontinued it as a product. So Sound Slides is the better option, and it has, can work on the iPhones and iPads and html5. There's also Animoto and a few other options. You can make them in Lightroom now. You can do it in Premiere Pro, all of this sort of stuff, but I just like the simplicity of Sound Slides for it. I don't really like all the crazy stuff that Animoto sort of does, but that's a taste. That's just a taste thing.

Katie: And you can get some really good royalty free music on different websites, like with etiquette music bed.

Matt: Music Bed, Song Freedom, Triple Scoop.

Katie: There's quite a few of them now, so you can, you know, support some smaller artists that have written some awesome songs.

Matt: Yeah, there's this whole cool kind of cottage industry that's sprung up around these, these music sites where it's, it's supporting a lot of really awesome independent musos and giving them a way to get paid for their music, and it helps out photographers and videographers too.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. So what sort of branding should we be adding to these videos? Or do you have the images watermarked? Or is there links that at work on take people back to the website?

Matt: Yeah, with Sound Slides, there's some different stuff that you can do. We kind of don't do a whole lot of branding on it, but there's some cool stuff that you can often do with these slideshows, that when the slideshow finishes, you can redirect people to a web page. So depending on how kind of in your face you want to be with your marketing, you could like just create a page on the back end of your website or blog. That's kind of like, once the slideshow finishes, it redirects that, and it's like, "Hey, like, what you see because you've watched something such as wedding slideshow. Here's a 20% voucher or whatever for a photo shoot with us." So there's some options there. Just like you can add photos, you can add slides that you've created in Photoshop that might have a marketing message on it. You could link people to Facebook, whatever, basically, whatever call to action you want at the end of the slideshow to drive business. You can really do that as well. We erred on the more subtle side, but you can kind of take it as kind of in your face as you want to really depending on, you know your style and approach as a photographer.

Andrew Hellmich: So how do people look at your videos? Know that it's Matt and Katie Photographers?

Katie: The very last slide that comes up has our logo and our website on it.

Katie: And that's it, just the last slide. That's it.

Matt: Yeah, that's it.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So pretty subtle.

Matt: Yeah, like, really subtle, because we, for us, this is the slideshow is always the first thing that our couple see from the wedding as well. So again, because we're shooting so many weddings out of town, that's their emotional payoff for seeing their wedding photos, and we didn't want to be too kind of in your face with that. Plus, you know, because of all of the other things that we're very strong with in our business, we didn't need to be as in your face with that. And it's also, it's at, you know, mattandkatieblog.com.au/slideshows/the couple's name.

Andrew Hellmich: So you host them on your server.

Matt: Yeah. So they're hosted on our server, so they're seeing, you know, Matt and Katie Blog there as well. But we kind of didn't want to take away too much from the clients, you know, viewing experience.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. So last question on the slideshow is, how many photos you're roughly putting in there?

Matt: Our slideshow goes for 13 minutes and 52 second.

Matt: Oh, so a lot of photos.

Katie: Yeah

Matt: So, but that's that works out to be about 160 photos at four to five seconds each.

Matt: Right. Okay. So when you say our slideshow, wouldn't it be different depending on the wedding that you shot or you do, 160 photos for every wedding?

Matt: We aim for 160 for every wedding, because we've got the music tracks that we use. We just use the same ones.

Andrew Hellmich: Yep, got it.

Matt: Yeah, be more efficient.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, totally get it.

Katie: Systemized.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, I like it systems. All right. Guys, are you guys ready for these 10 quick questions?

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. You can take it in turns, or you can fight for them.

Matt: Do we have buzzers? I need buzzers.

Matt: I'll just get Katie to punch you when she wants to answer. All right.

Katie: I like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, guys, here we go. 10 quick questions, 10 quick answers, 3-2-1, go! Canon or Nikon?

Katie: Nikon

Andrew Hellmich: I'm guessing both of you Nikon?

Matt: Yeah

Katie: That used to be Canon, and then came Nikon. So we're both Nikon.

Andrew Hellmich:
Good to see. What was your first ever camera for both of you guys?

Katie: I'm trying to think I had, like..

Matt: If something you had.

Katie: Oh, professional camera or like?

Katie: Oh, yeah, whatever. No, even your very first camera.

Katie: I think I had an old Polaroid camera of my grandmother's, that was one of my first cameras.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice one. I spoke to Anni Payne, her podcast was just released today, and she, her first camera was a Box Brownie.

Katie: Oh, wow!

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. What about you, Matt?

Matt: Yeah, probably some type of just generic, little film camera.

Andrew Hellmich:
Okay, so you were shooting film back in the day?

Matt: Yeah, but not like, just whatever the camera hit, not with any skill, no, not at all. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. Favorite, favorite lens, and why?

Katie: What are you gonna say? 24 to 70? I find the 24 to 70 big great lens for travel photography and also for documentary wedding photography, because it means that you can, I know, stand back, but get in close and then go wide if you need to quickly, rather than having to swap between primes for portraits. So I'd say 50 mil.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, awesome. What about you Matt?

Matt: Yeah. I like the, I like the 24 to 70 as well, just for, because of our documentary style and the travel stuff that we do whenever I travel, it's always 24 to 70 on DSLR.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you guys just have duplicate kits. Or you just share one kit at a wedding?

Matt: We just share. Katie will shoot

Katie: 24 to 70 for the bride.

Matt: Yeah, and I'll shoot 35 mil for the guys getting ready.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Matt: And 50, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: You shoot two primes. And Katie loves the zoom?

Katie: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so Katie, do you go off and do the bride while Matt you go and do the groom, or you go to both together?

Matt: Typically, we split up for that part of the day.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Cool.

Matt: Just it just, it's just convenient, yep.

Katie: JPEG or RAW?

Katie: RAW

Matt: RAW

Andrew Hellmich: It's the way Katie said it.

Matt: That's just because we're crap and we need to fix it up. Isn't that why you shoot RAW?

Andrew Hellmich: What do you think? I probably already have an idea of what Katie's answer is. What do you think was the biggest breakthrough in your business? For you?

Matt: Katie marrying me? Is that the answer? No. Biggest breakthrough? I think, I think it was really when we discovered, like, who we actually were as photographers, because we, you know, the meandering journey that we've talked about in this five hour podcast so far is, yeah, like, we put ourselves through a lot of stress and a lot of heartache because we were doing what we thought we should do. But it was also very different time. Like, it's a lot easier these days to come out of the box and kind of know who you are as a photographer, because the industry has matured so much. But I think that, that was a big thing, and it was like when I very first picked up a camera, when I bought a 5D Mark II to shoot video, went to America and found myself just shooting photos. All of the photos that I took were street photography and documentary photos. Yet for the next two years of our business, we were doing a style of photography completely the opposite to that, and was almost fighting against what we both naturally did when we used a camera, and it was when we figured that out that was just a game changer. When we're like, "Hang on, why aren't we just shooting documentary type photos for our clients?"

Katie: I think that came after I actually ended up collapsing from exhaustion and ended up in hospital. And that one for us was like a bit of a king hit, and really made us sit down and think about everything, everything in our business and our lives, and that's when we realized that we're so off-track with, you know, our, you know, our photography style, and who we were as people, and everything was put into question. And it was a really good way thing that happened, or this horrible thing that happened, but it, it definitely gave us the chance to take a step back and really look at things and head in the right direction, I guess.

Matt: Yeah, so I guess, I guess you'd, I guess you'd sum that up as, you know, finding our definition of success.

Katie: Yeah

Matt: Because I think our industry's definition of success is not often, possibly what it should be. You know, fame and fortune and making lots of money and being busy isn't actually success if your personal life isn't kind of going well. And that's kind of what we found that with Katie's collapse was, you know, our definition of success was so far out of whack, it's not funny. And since that kind of recalibration, having the right kind of definition of success is an absolute game changer for us for sure.

Katie: Cool. Katie, you move Matt away from that mic and get in a little bit closer yourself.

Katie: Okay, sorry.

Matt: Sorry.

Andrew Hellmich: That's all right, if you, so this one's for Katie, if you had to start over again today, start a brand new business a photographer, knowing what you know now, what would you do differently?

Katie: Oh, gee, I probably wouldn't start if I knew what I knew now, I probably wouldn't start at all, because I think it's good to go in naive and make all the mistakes. But if I knew, no, I don't know. I probably, no, I think we keep reinventing ourselves, and I am sort of starting a new journey at the moment, and that's using my photography to help others and doing a lot of charity work. And so I guess I would probably maybe have headed off in that direction a lot sooner.

Andrew Hellmich: Really, but then you could never make a living out of it if you're just doing charity work.

Katie: No, that's why you have a husband. No, I think you can, I know maybe being more. I know you can do weddings to support your charity work.

Andrew Hellmich: I thought you would just say, charge more.

Katie: Yeah. Charge more.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, guys, What software do you use for your batching, editing, renaming and renumbering?

Matt: Lightroom to process the photos and then Photoshop to

Katie: Photo Mechanic to pick the photos.

Matt: Yeah, Photo Mechanic to pick the photos, Lightroom to process the photos, Photoshop to run a black and white batch. But if you want the specific answer to renaming photos, I use Photo Mechanic to do that.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. That's what I used too. There's a few people using it. It's cool.

Matt: Yeah, it's cool. Like, it's a bit weird at first, because it's maybe not as streamlined as Lightroom is, but it's just super-fast.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that's awesome. Do you guys, do you guys still watch or look at what other photographers are doing, or you just block it out?

Matt: We both got a different answer to that.

Katie: Yeah, we're very different when it comes to this. I'm pretty much live on, well, I live in a bubble called My Katie Happy Bubble, and I really don't have many things inside my bubble, except for like my cat and my mom and Matt and I tend to block a lot of what's going in the industry out, because I find it, I know I find that if I'm constantly looking at other people's stuff, I'll compare myself to them and then probably feel pretty crap. So I don't, I don't pay that much attention at all. In fact, I won't look at anyone's website until I've met them in person. And that doesn't matter if that's like Jasmine Style or Julian Beatty. If I haven't met them in person, I'm not looking at them, so.

Matt: Yeah, and I'm a bit different where, you know, with doing a lot of, you know, the teaching and speaking and coaching and that sort of stuff, you know, it's important for me to really keep in touch with what's happening in the industry, but I'm definitely susceptible to comparing myself to others as well, so I try to do that as little as possible, but I like to keep up with what's going on and who's the hot photographers at the moment.

Katie: And so Matt keeps in touch, and I just keep myself under a rock.

Andrew Hellmich: You guys are a perfect couple. This is my last question, guys. You might have to think for a second What's your most embarrassing photography moment or stuff up? If you happy to share one.

Katie: Matt's or mine, because Matt's is pretty funny.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, let's hear yours first, if you've got one, Katie.

Katie: Oh, I can think of Matt. I can't think, oh yeah. Okay, so mine, mine was horrible. Actually, in we get the client to fill out a part of what is the special details of your day. And this one couple had written, we got a vintage mirror and with our names etched on it. Anyway, the groom walked in to the church, and I was walking backwards, and all of a sudden, I accidentally knocked over this vintage mirror. It was on a metal easel, and I bumped it, and I wasn't even aware it was there, but as I turned around seeing it fall, I thought, "Oh my goodness." Anyway, thank God it didn't smash. I have no idea how it didn't smash, but it was so embarrassing. And then the rest of the time, the mother of the group grooms walking around going, "Oh, just watch out for that mirror. The photographer just knocked it over." And I'm like, "Oh, gosh." I could have, I could have curled up in a ball and died, but God, it didn't smash. That would have been like the worst, because, like, people who are superstitious, smashing a mirror just before the bride walks down the aisle, probably would not have walk down at all.

Andrew Hellmich: That's worth it. That's worse than a rainy wedding.

Katie: Yeah, it was behind me a lot more now.

Katie: A great story.

Matt: Mine. I just I split my pants and had yellow jocks.

Katie: In the middle of the ceremony.

Matt: In the middle of the ceremony, I was climbing up a little hill behind the bride and groom, and during a really quiet moment, crouched down and just, and then there's nothing I could do. The groom actually swung past. I had to put up with it until after the family photos and everything, because there was nothing I could do. And the groom kindly got a spare pair of pants from his hotel room for me, which I think I still have. I never gave him back.

Andrew Hellmich: So what do you do now then, Matt, do you take gaff tape with you and wear black undies?

Matt: Don't wear the yellow undies, and lose weight, that was probably what caused it.

Andrew Hellmich: Guys, I love it. You've been so generous, guys, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and having a chat. Just let us know one more time how people can find you, guys.

Matt: Yeah, mattandkatieblog.com.au, is where we're at. You can learn a bit more about Katie's travels and stuff that she's been doing in Nepal. And if you want to learn from us, there's links there as well to the For Photographers section also.

Katie: Or you can google Matt and Katie. We're the most popular Matt And Katie is in the world.

Matt: There's this other couple that there are…

Katie: There is another photographers called Katie and Matt Photographers, right? And they're over in Texas or something. And I actually wrote to them, like, "Hey", and they never wrote back.

Matt: Yeah, I think, I think she's the smart one, and he's..

Andrew Hellmich: Katie..

Matt: I almost said "She's the smart one and he's the good looking one." Would have been a double insult. It's not what I mean. I'm gonna stop talking.

Katie: Just shut up.

Matt: Maybe that's you can erase. No.

Andrew Hellmich: We might keep recording.

Matt: Well, we fight, it's the real Matt and Katie.

Andrew Hellmich: Guys, thanks again.

Matt: Really great. We really enjoyed that, and we appreciate it that you would want to talk to us.

Katie: Mate, it's a pleasure. Thanks guys, so much. Both of you.

Matt: Cool, have a good day.

 
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