014: Anni Payne – Photography Business Success and Lifestyle by Photographing the Way You Want

014: Anni Payne – Photography Business Success and Lifestyle by Photographing the Way You Want

Andrew Hellmich: I'm so happy to have Anni Payne from Milk and Honey Photography as my guest on the podcast today. It's taken a few tries and a little cajoling to get Anni here, so I promise to be extra nice. And there are so many reasons I've tried so hard to have her on the show, and they include the fact that Anni has been in business for a long time. She's based in one of the most expensive areas in Sydney, and I'd love to know how she does it. And to me, I see Anni's work, I see Anni as an artist who uses photography to express herself, and not someone just doing photography to have a business. And I think there's a big difference. And if you ever get the chance to meet Anni, there's something very special about her. She's engaging in a way that makes you feel important, special, and that you really matter. And she's the reason I became involved with the AIPP Council years ago, and I'm sure she's the reason the AIPP was flourishing at the time that she was a New South Wales president. Anni, it's so good to have you on the show. Welcome to the podcast.

Anni Payne: Thank you, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, that was short and sweet. That's very formal.

Anni Payne: Thanks for asking me.

Andrew Hellmich: It's my pleasure. Do you want to start off by telling listeners a little bit about your business and where you are based and what you do, you know what part of your business is portrait, which, how much of it makes, is made up from weddings. Just tell us a little bit about what you know about you and Milk and Honey Photography.

Anni Payne: Sure. Yeah, so Milk and Honey Photography was established in 1996 and we are presently in a home studio in an old corner shop, an 1892 building on a corner in Roselle. And we have the business downstairs and we live upstairs. That's Matthew and myself and our two small children. And so Matthew is the other director of the company and photographer as well. And at the moment, there's just the two of us and also Laura, full time, who works with us in the studio.

Andrew Hellmich: So what are the roles of each of you, do you and Matthew both shoot weddings and portraits?

Anni Payne: Yeah. So the business, well, for mostly, has been 60 to 70% weddings, and then sort of 10 to 20% portraits. And the other part is corporate portraits, that kind of thing. So I tend to think that mostly it's changed a lot over the years. It continuously changes, but mostly out of the 15-16, years we've been in business, that the weddings have been my kind of side of things, and the portraits are run by all of us, really. And then Matthew's, he does most of the corporate work, that kind of thing. Even with portraits, I guess, Matthew's the first one that will go out and do the actual shoots. And then Laura and I will run the studio, as far as dealing with the clients and sales and following up with the clients, all of that kind of thing. So we're all photographers. We're all capable of doing all of the roles, but mostly we try to get Matthew out of the office and on the streets taking photos and yeah, Laura and I run, run things from there.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and so when, when you're shooting weddings, Anni, do you take Laura with you, or does Matthew assist you? Or second shoot?

Anni Payne: So the structure of the weddings is that Matthew and I are the first shooters, so always be one, one or the other of us on a wedding. And then Laura is our, our first second shooter, if you like. So she'd be the one to team up with whoever has a wedding first, and then we have a group of other freelancers that mostly have worked for us for a long time in our style, and they would be the other ones that team up with us. So we only ever would take two weddings on a day, two weddings on a day, and then so Matthew and I'd be the first shooters, and then we'd have the second shooters coming to work with us.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. And how would you, how would you describe your style? Because I see it as very arty and very creative. And like I said, to me, you guys seem like artists that use photography to have a business, not, not the other way around.

Anni Payne: Yeah, thank you. Maybe, maybe because we're not so good at business and kind of comes naturally, but, or flows naturally, but, yeah, I think that our style has a very flowy feel to it. See if that's, if that's a good description, very, we do base it on photojournalistic kind of ideas, although we do have quite a strict kind of shot list that we make sure we're getting as well that we've developed over the years through experience of knowing what people want and also trying to combine that with being completely creative on the day, but also making sure that we're ticking boxes and keeping everybody happy as well.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you guys, are you guys booking more weddings now than you ever have? Or are you seeing a downturn in the industry and business? What are your thoughts on that?

Anni Payne: We've seeing a huge downturn in booking weddings recently. It's been very up and down over the years, and it's, it's very hard to kind of predict, I find. I think 2007 was our biggest year, where we shot almost 80 weddings. And then the other years since 1996 have really ranged from 20 weddings to 70 weddings, kind of things. So it just depends. But we, we don't necessarily want to have more and more weddings as the years go on. We kind of fine tune how we present ourselves to really get the weddings that match us and that work with us. So yeah, we just aren't really out to get numbers. We're out to get, to find that right match between the clients and us and then, and then take it from there. So at the moment, wedding bookings are pretty, pretty slow, different to before. So we're sort of turning our energy to other areas so that we can still get the, get the right weddings and have those when we when they come in, but if they don't, then we have other areas to keep the business running. So, yeah, it's a constant, constant, changing business in that way.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. I think everyone, particularly in Australia, is finding the same thing, and I'm sure it's the same, you know, all around the world with weddings. So how do you combat the downturn in the bookings. Do you then raise your prices to keep the income steady?

Anni Payne: I think that that's not really a realistic way of combating it. I don't really think, that'd be, that'd be nice, but I don't think realistically that the market can bear that at the moment, and that the consumer is running it, is kind of controlling where that's going. So I don't really think raising prices is solving any problems at the moment. I think it's more staying true to who we are and what we do, and not compromising on quality or trying to, trying to compete with, you know, all of the other photographers, or trying to match what they do, to keep, you know, to keep in there. I think that it's about just remaining true to ourselves and to still find those clients that are right for us. And then obviously we still need to pay the bills, so finding other ways of doing that so that, yeah, so that we can keep the quality and the way that, you know, keep doing what we love doing, instead of trying to change to suit what's going on in the market.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you say, you know, doing other things, is that sort of doing more corporate work, doing more portraits, things like that, to supplement the income?

Anni Payne: Yeah, exactly. And I think that over the years we've wanted to do all different things, and we have done different things, but because weddings have always been very successful for us, we've never really, we found that naturally, the easiest way to put our energy and our budget and everything into weddings, so we've really concentrated on that in the past, whereas now we're sort of forced to look in other areas. Sorry, I've just got a client who's come to the door.

Andrew Hellmich: That's okay. We can, we can, we can include them in the interview.

Anni Payne: Oh, sorry, don't do that.

Andrew Hellmich: That's fine. No, I'm pretty sure you right to keep talking?

Anni Payne: Yeah, Laura has got it under control.

Andrew Hellmich: Good old Laura. When we were talking about doing this interview, originally, you, I mean, you were almost, I wouldn't say negative, but it was like, you know, it's so, the impression I got was you were thinking that it was so tough for new starters in the photography industry, you know, if you were to start again today, or if you know what you know today, then you were to start again. Would you go into photography as a business?

Anni Payne: Yeah, ahh..

Andrew Hellmich: Is it, is that a curly one? Is it?

Anni Payne: Yeah, it is a curly one. I think that, you know, and I have a, have a group of mentees at the moment, through the AIPP, who are asking a similar thing. And, you know, some of them have really good jobs that they're considering leaving to build a wedding and portrait photography business. And I, I, you know, fear for them. I sort of feel a little bit like, you know, "I hope that you're doing this for love, not money, because it is, it is pretty tough at the moment". And it's changed a lot and so I think that, yeah, people need to kind of assess whether it's really the right way to go for them. And I admire that. I think that if you, if you kind of know that it's a tough industry, and you choose to go into it, that does prove your love for it, and you know, that's awesome. I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't do anything different. I'm, like, had a career that I absolutely love for over 20 years. So, you know, I'm really lucky. There's not many people I know who absolutely love their job. So, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change that.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, the way I see it, I mean, I almost, I almost see it as a perfect time to have a job and shoot weddings as well as, I mean, for an example, I was looking at a Canberra photographers website just last night, and she was charging four and a half thousand per wedding. That was basically a shoot and burn package, and you get all the images in a proof book. So to me, I mean, that's pretty minimal work after the wedding, and that's a four and a half thousand dollar day. I mean, why not have a three-day-a-week job and shoot your wedding on the weekend?

Anni Payne: That sounds great in theory, if you charging that kind of money for a wedding. But you know, is it sustainable? When you really look at all of the costs, it's really, it's pretty expensive to have a photography business. Even if you do have another job and you're just doing it on the side, you still have to have a lot of equipment and be able to maintain that. And you know what, if you're sick and you've got to replace yourself, and you know in, there's still a lot of, a lot of things to think about. And I think that if you're just doing that for the money, then you still need to think about all of those things and have a bit of a long term plan in place to maintain that look.

Andrew Hellmich: I'd love to go into a little bit more of the marketing and sort of what you guys are doing these days. But I'd also really like to hear about how you actually got started in photography. So when, when did you first go into business?

Anni Payne: So I studied scientific photography at RMIT as a Bachelor of Applied Science degree, majoring in photography back in the early 90s. And, yeah, so that was, that was in Melbourne, and that was the only place in Australia where the course was offered as a science version of photography, science degree in photography. So we all ended up graduating in Melbourne. And so the jobs in Melbourne were pretty limited in that area. So it ended up getting a job as a medical photographer in Sydney, which was a great job to get straight from graduating as a full time medical photographer in a teaching hospital situation.

Andrew Hellmich: Hang on, this sounds so far removed from wedding photography.

Anni Payne: I know

Andrew Hellmich: So what do you, what are you actually photographing as a scientific photographer, is that bodies? Operations?

Anni Payne: Yes, yeah. So the job was, the title was medical photographer. But basically, back in those days, there was a whole, it was called medical illustration unit, the department that I worked in, and so we had three photographers in there, graphic designers, medical illustrators, who illustrated by hand, amazing and, you know, we used to copy doctor's scans and that kind of thing. So we used to photograph everything associated with the hospital and its teaching hospital, so it was connected to the university and many hospitals. It was the whole of the South Eastern Area Health Service, and it was just an awesome place to be trained as a photographer, because it wasn't just, it was operations, it was dead bodies. It was specimens. It was skin, photographing people's skin, all of those things that were very medically based. But it also ranged right into aerial photography for the hospital. You know, they were building new buildings, and I did an aerial kind of time lapse sequence for them. And then it was also like the Children's Hospital, all the PR work. So Humphrey B Baer came to visit the kids and the Queen and, you know, just amazing, amazing range of work that came from that. So it was really great grounding for me, and it really suited where I'd come from. I really enjoyed science and maths at school, but then I loved photography, so it was a perfect combination of those things. And yes, I did that for nine years, and absolutely loved it. So I was full time at the beginning, and then I became like the senior photographer, and then worked part time. I'm like, sort of like, downgraded my job, not downgraded but like, did less and less hours while I was building up Milk and Honey Photography on the side.

Andrew Hellmich: So Milk and Honey was the very first sort of business venture you went out on your own with?

Anni Payne: No actually, so I had a business called Moo Photography.

Andrew Hellmich: Moo, as in, 'moo cow'?

Anni Payne: Moo cow, yep, because I disliked cows, and I had a business card with three little cows on there that said Moo Photography. And my parents still wear the little caps that say photography on them. It's very embarrassing. And then Deb Joyce, who also had studied the same courses as me at RMIT, she had come up to Sydney, and also was working in the same department as a medical photographer. And so her and I, sorry, she had a business under her own name, Debra Joyce, and Debra means queen bee. So she had a bee on her business card, and I had cows on mine. And then we joined together to make Milk and Honey out of the cows and the bees.

Andrew Hellmich: That's beautiful. What a great idea!

Anni Payne: Yeah, so that's where milk and honey came from. And so that was in 1996, so we're both working as medical, gory medical photographers out the front, and then doing pretty weddings out the back. So yeah, it was..

Andrew Hellmich: That's great. So what? So what happened then? So is Deb still part of the business? You didn't mention her earlier on?

Anni Payne: No, Deb, so that was in 1996 and then in 2000, Deb moved back to Melbourne. So both originally were from Melbourne, and Deb, through her family circumstances, decided to move back to Melbourne. And we did continue to try to run Milk and Honey Photography Melbourne and Sydney. So for a year, we did do that. And so we set her up in Melbourne, because we both set up Milk and Honey in Sydney together from scratch, you know, over a slow period of time, we tried to do that for her in Melbourne as well. And we did do that. It was difficult to run it as Milk and Honey Melbourne and Sydney. But yeah, yeah. And then we decided to sort of split that partnership and Deb continue to run under her name, so she still has Deb Joyce Photography in Sydney, I mean, Melbourne. And, yeah, so Milk and Honey..

Andrew Hellmich: So, so just let me interrupt you for a sec, so you guys actually formed a partnership?

Anni Payne: Yeah, partnership, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So would you, if one of your mentees is asking about forming a partnership with a friend or another photographer, would you say that's a good thing to do, or would you advise against it? And why?

Anni Payne: Yeah, that's really interesting. It definitely had its ups and downs. We called it the divorce when she went to Melbourne because, you know, it's very difficult to have everything entwined together like that, and then to separate and to have to, you know, think about the logistics of that and ow that all works. That was, you know, a big learning curve. We were only, you know, in our early 20s, and sort of learning lots of things. So, yeah, it was, it was great. I mean, it was, it was difficult, but it was also very, yeah, it was a great learning curve. And Deb and I were great friends before we started the partnership. And we still are really great friends. And I think that, you know, that's real testament to our friendship. And I, I think a lot of people say that, you know, "Don't go into business with friends", but I think with Deb and I really worked particularly well because we had very, when we first started up, especially, we had very different things that we liked or that we were good at that were very complimentary. So I was good at doing the books and the invoicing and that kind of thing. And Deb had great skills in marketing, and she'd, she'd worked for a studio in Melbourne with a wedding and portrait studio, so she had great skills in lighting and posing, and so we had very complimentary skills that we could bring to the business. And I think having two of us rather than doing something on your own was very, it was great, great motivator and a way of, yeah, really getting things moving, you know, being inspired and motivated all the time and working together to make that happen. So, yeah, definitely couldn't have done it without her. It was, it was a great partnership, and just due to the circumstances of her moving, it needed to separate. And that's probably good timing as well. I think it's great to have journeys and then, you know, and then they need to move on at different points. So I think that it was, it worked out really well in the end. And you know, we're awesome friends still, and you know, we've had that experience together, and we can both have our own businesses. Now we can call up anytime and share anything with each other and ask each other anything, and it's great to have that as well.

Andrew Hellmich: So hang on, Anni, so you told me all the good things about a partnership. What about the divorce? The split? Was it, you know, I'm taking the couch and you can have the fridge?

Anni Payne: Yeah, it was, I think that there had to be compromises on both sides. It was, it was difficult for Deb, you know, she didn't really, it wasn't entirely her choice to leave Sydney, and things were going great with Milk and Honey, so it was difficult for her to have to, you know, make that decision and leave this business that she'd successfully built up over four or five years by that point. So I think that was hard for her, and that's why we tried to continue to both have Milk and Honey the name but it didn't really work out that way. It felt it was, yeah, it was too hard to continue down that way, because we were going in different directions. The business in each state was at different spot, so it was the best thing to kind of split at that point. And then, you know, it seemed right for her to have to give up the name, because I'd had it for longer in Sydney. So that was a difficult, difficult thing to do. There wasn't a lot of money in the business, because we'd built it up, you know, by using our time mostly. And so, yeah, it was hard to, we tried to buy the same amount of equipment each so that we're leaving on an equal level. But, yeah, I think at the end of the day it was, it was more, it was more difficult for Deb, because she had to, you know, leave the business where it had grown from, so.

Andrew Hellmich: So did you? Did you have a, like, a payout figure that was agreed to with your partnership agreement? Or how was that written up? Did that all come into play?

Anni Payne: Because there wasn't a lot of money in the business at all at that time, because we'd just grown it organically, and we were still working part time at the hospital and building up the business on the side. So there wasn't like, there was this pot of money that we could, it was more based on the time that we had put in over the years, and we'd, we had measured our time that we'd spent on the business. So that was good to have that in the partnership, knowing, you know, how much time. So there wasn't people, one of us going, you know, like, "I've spent so much more time on the queue", you know, we kept that very, very professional and all on paper and that kind of thing. So, yeah, we just kind of had to. There wasn't like a big payout or anything like that. There was, it was kind of like just a really amicable parting of ways, although it was, you know, difficult to do that, so.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so what about advice then, just for someone thinking about starting a part starting a partnership today, yes, no? Have a solicitor do up and draw up an agreement. You know, what advice would you give?

Anni Payne: I think, always have a solicitor involved. Always have or even, you know, just between the two of you have it done in writing, so that if things do go pear shape, there's a, there's a clear kind of out for each party, and never assuming that, you know it's always going to go well, or that people might not have differences, or it's often also just to do with a life path. I mean, you know, like having children and moving states or change of career path, or, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, important to have agreements and to think about the possibilities of what can go right and wrong, and how you're going to deal with that. And I think also just being adult about it, and being professional about it, and seeing the benefit and a bit of give and take in there as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Yep, sure, look, I'm in exactly the same position as you were. I've got a business partner, Natalie, who runs the Newcastle Studio, and she just had a gorgeous little baby boy. And so, yeah, things, things are changing in her life. So we have to reinvestigate where the business is going in Newcastle. And, yeah, see what happens there. So it's interesting to hear what you, how you guys split, and how amicable was it sounds. Sounds like it all worked out well.

Anni Payne: Yeah, it feels like it now.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you haven't mentioned Matt yet. So does he come into the business after Deb leaves?

Anni Payne: He married into the business.

Andrew Hellmich: These gold diggers, hey!

Anni Payne: Yeah. So Matthew has a background in film, and has a, he went to the film and television school, and so he came from that film background, so he'd done a little bit of photography, but not formal training in that area, but definitely from a creative background with a great art history kind of knowledge behind him. And I met him through my old boss from the hospital. So I went to do a photography job there and met Matthew. And you know that professor's history, but yeah, so he started to, when we started going out, he, you know, started to love photography, and he started to work with us as a shooter, as a second shooter, I guess. And yeah, he loved it. So he was interesting. He came from that non, not technical, technically based background in photography, but just purely from a visual, you know, kind of perspective. And so that's why I do say that I taught him everything he knows. I think technically I did, but I mean, you know, technically, I kind of took him on as like an apprentice kind of role, teaching him about apertures and that kind of thing. But he definitely had the eye and artistic approach, which is a great kind of raw place to come from, actually, that uninhibited kind of approach. So yeah, so he did that, and then he started to love photography. He was, he was doing writing of film as well, and had gone freelance by that stage. So film doesn't make any money. You need to work as a photographer to supplement that. So that worked out really well. And then at that time, when Deb left to go back to Melbourne, you know, did work, work out quite well that he kind of slotted into the business, and he started out more taking on like a separate role to Milk and Honey, where he was doing focusing on corporate portraits. He's he likes adult kind of corporate portrait kind of area. He likes that area very much. So, yeah, he, he was doing that. And then, and then we kind of found, so in 2004 we were married, and so he was getting more and more involved in the business side of things. He's not very into or he's not very natural at the running of business as far as invoicing and that kind of thing goes. So he's, that's why I was saying that Laura and I keep him out of the office, because he forgets the invoice. He undercharges people, but he's very, very good photographer, so we like to get him out and about. And, yeah, so that's all kind of grown very organically, and then in 2006 we had our first child, so that really turned things around a lot, because where the business had been mostly on my shoulders at that point, you know, all of a sudden, I needed to be a mum and find a way to sort that out. And we had five employees at that time. So it was a, it was really probably the busiest time of Milk and Honey, and yeah, so that was that was very difficult in, it wasn't very, we didn't kind of plan the difference in structure of Milk and Honey. It just happened quite organically. So then Matthew, at that point, needed to step in quite a bit. And that's when the, it turned from being mostly about my business to being jointly with him. So, yeah, it was, it was a good time to make that happen.

Andrew Hellmich: Did you step right out of the business and let Matthew look after the accounts and invoicing and billing and that sort of thing as well? Or were you still shooting or doing some paperwork?

Anni Payne: I was, I was still doing everything, really. Will say to me, like, "Oh, how long did you have maternity leave?" And I just like, "I didn't have any maternity leave." I can't remember not working. I obviously had to slow down. And we did have, in the studio over in Balmain, we did have a cot and a pram and a basket under the desk with a baby in it most of the time. So yeah, we worked around that. And it meant that Matthew and I were sharing the care of Etty, our son, and then Odette later on. And yeah, so we just, we just kind of, yeah, worked around it, and then worked around them, and maybe worked at night, you know, to be able to do that. So again, it just like everything that's kind of happened with Milk and Honey, it has happened quite organically, and I know we're still going, so it's kind of working.

Andrew Hellmich: So at that stage, you're in a studio in Balmain, so you're not living there. It's just, just a studio. You've got five employees. You're doing 80 weddings, or, I think it was seven or 80 weddings thing, things are on fire.

Anni Payne: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: And then they take a downturn.

Anni Payne: Yeah. Well, I think that they, didn't really take a downturn that year.

Andrew Hellmich: No, no, sorry. So further on in your stories, because now, because you've moved back to Roselle, you work in a home based you do have got one employee. So what, what happened through that period? Was that a change in the industry, or was that you guys, was that an organic change, or was that you guys taking a different direction?

Anni Payne: That kind of change from then to now has been, not based on a downturn in business. Actually, that's been more based on where we feel comfortable, and we, when we had those employees and started having babies as well. You know, it was very stressful. I found it very stressful. I found that it was, it was about managing staff and, you know, making sure there was enough work coming in to pay everybody and pay everything and the bills. And so it was very, very stressful time. We were really busy. We had, yeah, that was like our busiest time. We also did a book project that year, and had over 100 portraits involved in that as well. So we weren't slowing down business wise, but we were, because of starting a family. And it was, yeah, it was not very, it wasn't very pleasant, it was quite stressful. And so I found that we naturally slowed that down, which, and sometimes it's because, you know, staff have left, or that kind of thing. It hasn't been really a conscious decision, but it's been more like, "Oh, you know, that feels, that feels better, that we're, we're not having to pay so many people", or that, you know, there's different things going on that are, that are difficult. So, yeah, it's very organic. We were living in a tiny flat in Elizabeth Bay, where we had both, both the children there, and we had quite a large studio in Balmain, and the balance of family and business started to feel wrong, you know, it's like we had this tiny place where we were living and growing a family, and then we had this really large studio. So it, where we're paying, you know, rent that was going higher and higher, because it's on the street of Balmain. So it felt like it was the right decision to start to think about changing where we were living and way and combining that maybe with work or just like balancing out what we were in our home life and our work life. So yeah, that organically happened, and then we, we found this corner shop, and it, again, felt right, like everything in my life. It sounds like it has happened quite organically, even studio. Someone was asking the other day how, how I found it, or did I do studies in the area as to which area you know, to go into. But it really was just that we loved the building itself. Wasn't even an area we were looking in. So again, that just happened organically. And then, yeah, so the building that we're in at the moment, same thing happened. We were looking for two weeks thinking about what was going to be the next move, and found shop, and that felt right, so we went with that. Yeah, that has been how we kind of make decisions, but it seems to have worked.

Andrew Hellmich: That's lovely. Now, talking about your photography now it's totally nothing sort of adds up to me, because I described your photography as natural, as artistic, as creative, and you've told me you studied scientific photography. You taught Matthew all the technical sides of photography, about apertures and settings and things like that. You sound very analytical. So where does all this creative side come from? Is that something you were taught?

Anni Payne: I don't know if you can really be taught that. I think that you have to build it within yourself. And I think that you know you can have, you can have two sides to your brain, Andrew, you can be technical and artsy. And so, yeah, as I was saying with that course, originally, the course I did at RMIT was really made for me, because I was always, like, into science and maths and but the side of photography as well. So it's great combination to have both of those. So, yeah, I think it's important for a photographer to have both of those areas of skill. It's the only way that they can really grow as a photographer. Stuff should come, should be learned so well that it's just second nature and isn't really thought about. And then, and then you can concentrate on the creative side of things and let your, you know, artistic side come out.

Andrew Hellmich: You were one of the photographers that held on to film, I think longer than, longer than most photographers. Would that be fair to say?

Anni Payne: Yeah. So, yeah, we felt like we were the dinosaurs there for a while, being the only one shooting film.

Andrew Hellmich: So it's funny, you say dinosaurs because I thought you would. You know, I see you more as holding out because you love the feel and the look of film more so than holding out for the because of the change.

Anni Payne: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. We weren't convinced with digital for a long time. I found the colors that I was seeing, the greens and the over sharpness and the kind of qualities of digital that, I thought was first being presented, just really didn't do it for me. And the depth and the warmth of film was, you know, it was great. And we developed a beautiful, a fantastic system of over many years. And yeah, we certainly weren't seeing anything that was tempting away, tempting us away from that for a long time. So, yeah, it felt right to hold on to it and until, until it felt right to move on from it. So, yeah, that's what we did.

Andrew Hellmich: So you guys are 100% digital now?

Anni Payne: We are for business. We still have an old Hasselblad film camera, an Xpan and a few cameras that we personally use for personal work. And I did a photograph to Christine the other day, where the father of the little girl who was to be christened loved film, and heard that I had an Xpan, so I brought that out and did a roll of film there. So, yeah, but, but generally, for business purposes, we don't use film.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. So talking about business, what are your findings working now for Milk and Honey Photography, as far as getting bookings, where do most of your bookings come from? Let's talk, say, let's talk weddings first.

Anni Payne: Yeah, it's such a web at the moment of where they come from. I think that it's very hard to define more than ever, because it used to be, you know, which magazine is working, kind of thing. But these days, it's like so many different points where, where the people can be coming in. And I think, as always, it's about the client seeing your name in more than one area, maybe like, if a friend tells them about us, and then they see us in a magazine, and then they see us on a blog, and that's great. There's three places where they'll be very likely to want to book us because they feel that trust and like where we're being, you know, we're around and, yeah, so it's, it's hard to kind of pinpoint it down to one area. We do advertise with a couple of the blogs, the wedding blogs, and we're still in print, in one of the magazines, paid for paid advertising. And then we do have a lot of word of mouth as well, which is nice, and yeah, lots of little bits and pieces, but I think probably from the blogs and from word of mouth would be our strongest avenue of clients at the moment.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you do you measure traffic from those wedding blogs?

Anni Payne: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Through how? I don't want to put words into your mouth. I was about to, you know, suggest something, but I was quite curious, how you do, do it?

Anni Payne: I've Google Analytics, and we have someone who helps us with that side of things. We do find it hard to kind of find the time, I guess, to really research it all. So we have a marketing and business expert that helps us and kind of points us in the right direction of what's working and not working. And, yeah, really, I really want to get hooked on wanting to look at those analytics. And I love it, how people do that and say, "Oh, this. They looked at this page 100 times, and this and that", but I haven't quite got hooked on it yet, so I kind of need someone to point it out to me still.

Andrew Hellmich: It is. It's amazing what's available there on Google Analytics. I mean, like you said, you can see how long they've been on there for, how many times, and where they went afterwards, all sorts of things. So it's, it's pretty cool.

Anni Payne: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So is this this business or marketing expert? Is that someone that you pay that you found?

Anni Payne: Yes, yeah. So a few years ago, I was looking for somebody to kind of help out with that side of business, with marketing and mostly to do with social media, I guess.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry, you just broke up there Anni, mostly to do with?

Anni Payne: Social media

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Anni Payne: Some help with, you know, kind of blogging. And we were blogging, but we just found quite it quite hard to get around to doing it. And also, we hadn't really been utilizing Facebook and Twitter and those kind of things very much. So we wanted someone to come in and give us expert advice on what to use, and, yeah, where to go, I guess. And so they came in. Steph is her name, and she's great. And she, first of all, came in on in that capacity to write a fresh business plan, marketing plan, that kind of thing for us. And I found that was really great to reassess all those things and, but in reality, with us being busy a lot of the time and just because we we're not in the habit of following plans like that, we still didn't get around to utilizing all the suggestions she was making. So the next step we did with her was like a monthly, a monthly thing where she would sort of analyze what's happening with, you know, with business and with all the marketing and advertising plans that we've implemented, and advise us on which one was the best one to use, and where it was going, and looking at other areas that we could go as well. So that was great, but again, we just weren't really actually making any changes. So after that, took her in as a capacity where she actually was also helping us implement, so again, a monthly kind of fee where she was giving us advice and then also actually implementing some of those things with us. So yeah, that's been really helpful. And so she'll work alongside Laura to get the blog posts up and running. And, you know, just kind of sort of probing us a little bit to make them happen bit more, a bit faster than they would organically with us.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So is Laura like then, do you have a schedule for her where you expect to see or you hope to see, you know, one blog post a week and two tweets a day and at least a Facebook post?

Anni Payne: Yeah, that's right, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And have you seen any has that helped the business?

Anni Payne: Yes, I think so. I think that that's, it's, it's still pretty hard to measure, even though there's all these measuring tools, I feel like it's hard to measure, because what are you measuring against? You know, like, it's like, is the business better than it was last year? Well, it's different, because everything's changing all the time. So yeah, I think that in this day and age of everyone being all over social media, you do need to be there, but for sure, and you know, keep really active. But whether or not that directly helps the business, I think, is a hard one to pinpoint.

Andrew Hellmich: So it's more about sort of having your name out there and being, you know, recognizable to potential clients.

Anni Payne: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Cool. You haven't mentioned bridal expos? Do you still do them?

Anni Payne: No. So when I was pregnant, we had quite an elaborate bridal fair setup. And Matthew would have to set it all up by himself when I was out of action. And after he did that a few times on his own, he said, "That's it. We're never doing bridal fairs anymore." So was mostly due to him not wanting to do all that physical work over ,it was quite intense during that over one weekend, but I think that at that time they also weren't, they'd stopped working well for us anyway. So that was probably all that was, yeah, 2006 kind of time, but that worked, they'd been one of our big, main sources of clients, yeah, so they changed a lot.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Anni, I've got, I've got a bunch of questions here, but what I mean, what we might do if you're happy to let's jump into these 10 quick questions with 10 quick answers, so I can be conscious of your time. And I think there'll be a few good little, few good little answers in here as well from you. You happy to do that?

Anni Payne: Okay

Andrew Hellmich: 10 quick questions, 10 quick answers, 3-2-1, go. Canon or Nikon?

Anni Payne: Canon.

Andrew Hellmich: What was your first ever camera?

Anni Payne: Box Brownie

Andrew Hellmich: Serious?

Anni Payne: Yeah, I'm old. Well, my dad had one.

Andrew Hellmich: I missed that, so your dad had one?

Anni Payne: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, cool. What's your favorite lens to shoot with today? And why?

Anni Payne: 50 mil, 1.2 just because it's beautiful.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you shoot JPEG or raw?

Anni Payne: Raw

Andrew Hellmich: What was the biggest breakthrough in your business?

Anni Payne: Oh..

Andrew Hellmich: I'm sure Matthew's going to be listening to this, thinking "She's going to say me when I'm married into the business."

Anni Payne: That's it. Thanks for answering.

Andrew Hellmich: Let's say you're in the position of one of your mentees. You're about to start a brand new photography business in weddings and portraits. But you know exactly what you know today. What would you to kick things off?

Anni Payne: I would really make sure that what I was doing was solely coming from me and really thinking about a unique selling point something these days, you just have to be, you have to have something different to the next person, and really stay true to that to be able to survive.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, can I put you on the spot and ask you what yours is? What's your USP, because, I mean, I think I fight with the same thing. I think every all the marketing blurb we read and hear and listen to, everyone, all the experts say you have to have a USP, you have to be able to. separate yourself from the competitors.

Anni Payne: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Do you? Do you have one like, is there one in your head that you know that, that is Milk and Honey Photography?

Anni Payne: Yeah, that's, that's bad that I don't have one written down to read off to you straight away. But I think that we do have one, and it's, it's what Milk and Honey is, which is kind of, it's organic, it's pretty, it's personal, it's warm, it's unique. You know, I think that, hopefully our, a lot of people tell us, and hopefully, like our branding and our studio and our work all has that same feeling when you're looking at it, and people comment on that when they come to the studio, so that that's what ours is. It's hard to define, but I think that we do stay true to that and that's, yeah, that's what it is for us.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. What software do you use for your batching, editing, renaming, renumbering?

Anni Payne: Well, we do have Lightroom, but I have to admit that I use Bridge more often because I'm more familiar with it and can work more quickly with it.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. Yeah, there's a few photographers that have said the same thing. Do you, do you actually watch what other photographers are doing? Like, as far as marketing and their style of shooting, do you watch? Yeah, are they, are you influenced by other photographers?

Anni Payne: Yes, I am influenced by other photographers, definitely, and not necessarily just other wedding and portrait photographers, and also not in a way that try to copy them all that kind of thing. It's, of course, interesting to see what else is going on out there, but I think it's easier to stay different, if you, if you come up with your own ideas and try to keep, keep your inspiration, you know, from people that are not necessarily in the same industry as you.

Andrew Hellmich: What's the biggest setback you've ever had in your business? You can't say, Matthew again.

Anni Payne: I think this is, this sounds so negative, but it's, it's really not meant to be. But what comes to mind is, is having children, but to be a negative thing, it actually was really good for me in the business sense, because it did stop, make me stop and slow down. And I'd just been going at great speed before that. And you know that, it's what children do to you. They make you stop and smell the roses. And, yeah, so that's been a really lovely setback in the business that made me kind of assess things on a personal level, and not just, you know, continue on this crazy trajectory of trying to get bigger and bigger and bigger and better all the time. So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So is life better for you now than in 2007 when you were doing 80 weddings a year?

Anni Payne: Yes, yeah, definitely.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. If you happy to share it, what's an embarrassing photography moment or stuff up that you've had?

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, spill?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I've got a list now.

Anni Payne: The other day, after shooting for 20 years, I went to a portrait shoot of a family whose wedding I'd photographed, and I was photographing them now with their two boys, and I didn't have any CF cards with me.

Andrew Hellmich: Did you actually get out of the car and greet them ready to shoot?

Anni Payne: Yes. And then I said, "Oh, I've forgotten my favorite lens. I have to go back to the studio."

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome.

Anni Payne: And yeah, so I can laugh about it, because it wasn't a wedding, and I was only five minutes from the studio. But yeah, that's pretty bad.

Andrew Hellmich: What would you have done if I was a wedding? You were at the bride's house?

Anni Payne: I would have called Matthew.

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. All right. Last question, where, where do you see wedding and portrait photography in five years' time?

Anni Payne: I think that there's, there's going to be a big turnarounds in wedding and portrait photography. I think at the moment, there's just this, this flood of in generally, in photography, of everyone being a photographer, and everyone being, not just a professional photographer, but everyone thinking that they're a photographer and that's great, that everyone's loving photography so much. But I think, I hope that it's going to swing around back to people understanding that it's not just about the equipment that you can access, and that it is about having really beautiful craft and understanding light and composition and respecting and appreciating good photographers again. And I'm talking more about the clients, I guess, than the other photographers, but I'm hoping that they will learn from being saturated in photography, that, you know, there's still a reason to employ a professional photographer, and that, you know, they're really talented in their own right.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's tough, isn't? I mean, how it's difficult to like you said, to educate the clients when they all think they're photographers now.

Anni Payne: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Anni, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for spending some time on the podcast.

Anni Payne: Thanks. Thanks. It wasn't as scary as I thought.

Andrew Hellmich: Now, you have to tell everyone where they can check out your work and connect and see what you're doing. Anni?

Anni Payne: Yes?

Andrew Hellmich: I was just asking if you can let listeners know where they can find you and see your work and connect with you.

Anni Payne: I thought you were telling me to tell them where to find you.

Andrew Hellmich: Now, I want to hear about your website.

Anni Payne: Oh, me, me.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

Anni Payne: www.milkandhoney.com.au

Andrew Hellmich: Great. And you're on Twitter and Facebook, and you have a blog associated with the website as well?

Anni Payne: Yeah, and Instagram as well. Love Instagram.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic! I'll add links to all those places in the show notes.

Anni Payne: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: Thanks, Anni.

 
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