PBX426: Sarah Louise Jackson – How to succeed in the profitable genre of building and architectural photography

PBX426: Sarah Louise Jackson - How to succeed in the profitable genre of building and architectural photography

 

Andrew Hellmich:Today's guest has been photographing buildings for 25 years. Yes, I said buildings. She's a construction and architectural photographer based in Melbourne, Australia, and some of the services that she offers include still photography, drone and aerial photography, time and Hyperlapse and snappy videos, with a very long list of well-known clients. A few that you may know of include McDonald's, John Deere, Air New Zealand, Costco, David Jones and so many more. Now, in addition to her fantastic photography, she also has a podcast. It's titled Adventures of A Construction Photographer, and I'm talking about Sarah Louise Jackson. I'm rapt to have her with us now, Sarah, welcome.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Thank you. Andrew, thanks for having me on the podcast. I'm very excited, a long time listener and, yeah, happy to..

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. That's so cool. I mean, so you know how the interviews run, and we've actually chatted quite a bit too, during the vlog challenge a few months ago. So I'm really familiar with you. I'm not 100% familiar with your work, but I've got an idea about it. How did you get into construction photography?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Well, to be honest, it was by accident. I wanted originally to be a landscape photographer, and my husband, or boyfriend at the time, now husband, was starting his apprenticeship in carpentry, and his boss at the time asked if I could go and photograph some of their projects, and alas, I fell in love and haven't looked back since.

Andrew Hellmich: With him or the photography?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Well, both.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So were you actually, were you a landscape photographer and making money from it at that time?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I was a struggling landscape photographer. I mean, this was fairly early on in my career. I think I'd only been photographing for about two years, something like that. I was actually trained, believe it or not, as a wedding photographer, then sort of jumped ship and changed to commercial. .

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you started photographing for your boyfriend's construction company with a carpentry company

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: And I'm guessing they paid you for that work. Is that, when you got the idea that, hey, this could be a new avenue or a different avenue for me?

Sarah Louise Jackson: 100%, so I was always uncomfortable photographing people. I'm a fairly shy personality, and I just get incredibly nervous, especially on a wedding day. And then when I started doing the buildings, I sort of went in, I thought, "This is great. I don't have to talk to anybody. I can sort of go about my business, and I got paid, like, pretty well for it. So, so I'm on to something here." And, yeah, so, I mean, it's such a cool, cool job. There's no two days of the same. One day I might be photographing a shopping center. The next day it might be state of the art operating theater or a restaurant, or some cranes being put up. It's just really, really cool in terms of the variety of stuff that you get to shoot.

Andrew Hellmich: So cool, I want to ask you more about the actual work that you do, and also the fact that you're a woman in what I'm guessing, you know, maybe in the beginning, maybe not. Maybe I'm totally off base here, but it sounds, well I thought it would be a very male dominated genre. But let me just take you back to, You said, when you started photographing for your boyfriend's boss or doing that construction work, in a very early days, you were paid pretty well. So how did you even know what to charge back then? Was it an hourly rate? Did you give a quote? How did you do your pricing back then?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so I've never sort of charged by the hour. I've always charged by the amount of images that the client ends up choosing. And it's just, I guess, something that I just really discovered by fluke. I just asked the client, sort of how many images that they might like. And there's a organization called the Master Builders Association of Victoria or Australia as well. And they have, like, a little bit like we have the AIPP Awards, they have the Master Builder Awards, and they had a requirement that you had to have 14 images. And so I just basically came up with a figure for images, and I've been charging like that way ever since.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, then, so back then, would it be like an architect or a builder that would employ you who wants to enter this competition?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes. So I mainly photographed for builders. So it was builders at the time. But of course, there is architectural awards that run also, but I've always erred on the side of the builders.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so back then, I know this is going back a long time, but let's say you I'm a builder, and I call you up. I've seen your portfolio. I like it. I want to enter these awards. I'm after 14 images. I'm guessing you would shoot a lot more. And then would I pick the best 14?

Sarah Louise Jackson: That's exactly right, yeah. So I would normally go to a project and photograph anywhere from sort of 30 to 100 photos, to be honest. And then they are able to pick the ones that they think sort of reflect the project the best. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And then, do you remember what you charged back then?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so I was a little bit clever about it, I think. So, I sort of had, I guess, a staggered approach. So one to five photos, six to 12, and then 13 to 30. And I think back then I was charging about 1500 something like that for the 13 to 30 images. So that was the one that was chosen. Always chosen because we had to have a minimum of 14.

Andrew Hellmich: I love how you did that. So already back then, you were pretty business savvy to because I think most new photographers would start at a package with 14 or 15, and you've gone straight for the 13 knowing they need 14. That is so good.

Sarah Louise Jackson: I guess it's just sort of something. When I did my photography course, I also did a business marketing course alongside so the school that I went to for my photography offered the business marketing course also.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, okay, again, like, I just can't understate how, like, that is such a smart thing to do for such a new like an emerging photographer in that space. I think most photographers would be scared to do what you did. I love that you did that. Were builders saying to you, "Hey, can you throw in an extra photo for the package below?"

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, that's the wonderful thing about builders, is that, I don't know how to explain it, but they are happy to sort of, they don't quibble about price often. You're there to do the job. If you deliver, they're very happy at the end of it. And I've not had on many occasions, anyone sort of quibble about price or anything like that in the past.

Andrew Hellmich: This is sound like a pretty cool genre to work in.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: So I do want to fill in all the gaps, but let's just fast forward to today. Can you give us an idea of your revenue today?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so I'm pleased to say that I'm in the six figure category. I feel very blessed to just be able to do what I do each day. I just love it so much, and to be financially rewarded, I guess, is just..

Andrew Hellmich: So good.

Sarah Louise Jackson: I feel like I'm living the dream.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. That is so good, like I know when, like six figures gets thrown around a lot these days, let's say it was 100,000. I mean to me, that really means your take home pay is closer to 50,000 is that what we're talking about 100,000 or more?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, it's more than 100,000.

Andrew Hellmich: Over 200?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Over 500?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: That is amazing. That is amazing, Sarah.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: You must be so proud. That is incredible.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: How many people are in the business?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Would you believe that it's just myself, my accountant and I do have some people that I sort of collaborate with occasionally for video editing and capturing video, if it's something that sort of I feel bit out of my depth with.

Andrew Hellmich: So are they like contractors that you use?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes, and I do find a friend. So through the Australian Institute of Professional Photography, made many a friend over the years. So quite often I'll collaborate with the legendary Mr. Tony Knight or some other friends in the industry as well, but essentially, it's just me, myself, and I in the business.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, amazing. You know, you're just blowing the minds of the listener right now. Incredible. So I said in the intro that you do or offer a whole range of photography, I understand what drone and aerial photography is. Is the aerial photography is that from helicopters or airplanes?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, it is mainly drone. Certainly in early years it was from out of a helicopter. But now it's typically all drone now, which is just, it's just such a minefield and so much fun. I just absolutely love seeing the different vantage points from the air, the bird's eye views.

Andrew Hellmich: I imagine there must be a lot of compliance and hoops you have to jump through to be able to use a drone, particularly in Melbourne, in the city. Is that right?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. So there absolutely is, as of February this year, you had to fly for reward. You have to have an accreditation, you have to have your drone registered. You have to have a REPL license, and beyond that, to fly in the city, you have to have a REOC license, which is mandated by CASA which is a Civil Aviation Authority for the Australian Airways. So that is a process. You do have to sit exams for that, and it's definitely a process, but well worth doing. I feel it's sort of going to be the way of the future, I feel.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, and I'm guessing then whatever the costs are that are involved in getting those licenses. You know, they pretty much pay for themselves. I imagine once you start getting work.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Absolutely, absolutely. I think to get your REPL license, you're looking at about 3000 something like that, and then probably about another two and a half to get the REOC license.

Andrew Hellmich: Are these annual fees?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, no, it's a once off, once you've got the license, you've got it.

Andrew Hellmich: That's not too bad.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. And then with the other photography, again, I understand time lapse, that's where you set your camera in place for a certain amount of time, and you capture a frame every so many seconds or minutes or hours. Is that right for time lapse?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yes, that's right. So essentially, you have a camera that's fixed on site, that sits in a weatherproof box, and it has a little computer in the box which tells the camera to fire every 10 or 15 minutes, or you can do it even sort of every few minutes, if you like. And that sits on the site basically for anywhere from sort of six months to two years, however long the project runs. And then at the end of it, you create a video which shows sort of from beginning to end of the progress of the build.

Andrew Hellmich: So with that system that set up is this like a regular SLR in there, and how do you go about changing batteries?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So it has power to the unit, or it also has a solar function, so the solar unit can actually power the camera. You don't need the highest quality camera. It's currently, I've just got entry level Nikon cameras inside the box, because the quality of the files don't need to be huge. They're actually quite small, to be honest. And yeah, just all those images sandwiched together sort of create this amazing little ant style video of the building being built.

Andrew Hellmich: I've seen the videos. They're so cool. So I'm guessing so you would set the camera to manual focus, use a reasonably wide lens. Is the exposure always auto, with a fixed ISO and fixed white balance?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. So it's important that you have it on a manual because, well, if it's indoors, you just have it set on manual because the light doesn't change too much. If it's outdoors, you would have it on an auto setting, having said that the software that you used to create the video does a really good job at sort of balancing out different lighting conditions.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it okay, because you're shooting JPEG files by the sound of it.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct. Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Wow. Okay, so that time lapse. What's hyperlapse?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Hyperlapse is time lapse on the go. So I like to just sort of as a behind the scenes sort of situation. When I'm working, I'll have like a GoPro that's set to time lapse, and I'll be walking through the projects, so I'm moving while the camera is also capturing sort of the time lapse. Okay, it's actually fixed to you. Yeah, I'm just holding it in my hand as I'm walking. So it's sort of like a moving time lapse through a building. Or you can do it from the air as well. So if, for example, if a crane's lifting a concrete panel into place, or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Or you might fix it to the concrete panel.

Sarah Louise Jackson: The drone will sit in the air, for example, and capture the concrete panel being lifted by the crane into position, and it will be just sort of hovering around as it's all happening.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. This is such a whole new world to me. So these are probably really basic questions.

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, no, no, not at all.

Andrew Hellmich: And then snappy videos?

Sarah Louise Jackson:
Snappy videos. So that was something that was born out of COVID. To be honest, I was grounded and couldn't work, and I thought, well, I've got to sort of pivot here, or do something that I can do from home. So that happened just out of out of fluke, and that was just an idea that I came up with to create videos of people's projects. Or if people wanted to send me some products, I could photograph them in my studio at home and then create marketing videos for them.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you're basically trying to keep yourself employed while you're working from home.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. Had time on my hands. I was a bit bored, and came up with snappy videos.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. You know, when you learn something, let's say you're talking about time lapse. I imagine there was a learning process. How confident were you with how to do a time lapse before you put it on your price list and actually started charging clients?

Sarah Louise Jackson: To be honest, Andrew, I was so nervous. I think I got asked to put one on a project, the first one that I did, and I really didn't know what I was doing. I got the time lapse camera, I think, about 24 hours before it needed to be put onto the site. And so I don't think I slept in those 24 hours, I sort of did everything I could to learn it fast. But the company that you buy the equipment from just so helpful, Photo Sentinel, their name and the guys there are just absolute legends. They'll always help you out with any questions.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. Okay, so you went and said, so you actually charged a client for the very, you didn't even do a test run. You actually bought the camera, sold it as a going as a job, and then installed it.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes, yes. I mean, I did do a little test run at home, but, yeah, no, I jumped in with both feet.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I love to hear about how the process from start to finish, and I'm guessing things have changed. You know, as your business has grown these days, how do you attract clients? Or how do clients find you?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So to be honest, most of it is actually word of mouth.

Andrew Hellmich: These days.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, it is. It's a lot of referral based, or someone might move from one company to another, and you're fortunate enough to be taken along for the ride. In the past, I guess, in terms of marketing tactics, I actually applied a lot of sort of things that I've heard on your podcast, to be honest.

Andrew Hellmich: In your world.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so, I mean, back in the day, I guess the way, sort of, I started building my client base was using a gift card system, and so I would send out a letter with a gift card to companies that I'd like to work for, sort of like a trial basis. Let's do one shoot together, if you like it. Let's, you know, continue to work together, if not, well, unlucky, but yeah. So that was sort of how I really started, was with gift cards.

Andrew Hellmich: The gift card that you started out with was that, like, uh, did it have dollar value?, or was it let me come in for one hour and then you shoot for two hours and try and do an upsell? Like, how did that actually work?

Sarah Louise Jackson: It did have a dollar value. So I think the first gift cards I did were $550 and a shoot cost 650 so they weren't actually getting anything for free. They still had to pay a little bit. And I think that's important, because, you know, if you're just offering up yourself for free, there's no sort of, I guess, investment on their side. They're not invested in the process.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure.

Sarah Louise Jackson: So, you know, it can just be a small amount that they have to pay to sort of appreciate the whole situation.

Andrew Hellmich: So on the gift card, Sarah, did it actually say, you know, gift voucher, 550 and then do they have the price? Or you just sent out the gift voucher?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. No, no. It was quite a structured letter saying what would happen along with a price list. It wasn't like they didn't know what they were getting into.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, there's no sense of bait and switch.

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, absolutely not.

Andrew Hellmich: It was, this is a voucher, but you're still up for $100?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And then was the idea then, to make an upsell afterwards, if they were happy with the images?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Not on the initial shoot. No. My goal is that I want to work for your company. And I guess that's something else that I should mention is that once you do start working in the construction field with a company, it's generally a long relationship. It's not sort of like once turnover.

Andrew Hellmich: Because they need images for every single job they do. Don't they?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct, yes. So most clients are sort of 10 plus year clients.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. Wow. So do you still have clients today who got in on the gift voucher system?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I do.

Andrew Hellmich: That's amazing. That's so good.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah, no, um. And look, even to this day, like if there's a client, there's certain companies that I guess I'm see as a milestone that I still would like to work for. And if there's been any sort of contact, I'll send them a gift card just to say, "Hey, it was great to chat the other day. Here's the gift card for your first shoot." And it's just, I don't know. It's just a way of trying to get your foot in the door, I think.

Andrew Hellmich: I like that. So if you would even send out a gift card today, would you have had to have had a, you know, a personal connection with the person you're giving it to? Or would you go and search them out on LinkedIn? Would you find the Facebook profile and target them that way? Like, how do you get that voucher into their hands?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So yeah, I mean, stalking on LinkedIn is great, but generally, I'm only sending gift vouchers to people that I've had an email from that have said, "Hey, we're interested in having a shoot with you. Our project's two, three months off", and then I'll send them a gift card, sort of. In that time just to, I guess, seal the deal, hopefully.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I like it. I like it. I love the approach. Let me throw another scenario at you, a hypothetical. Let's say it's an existing client, someone you've been working with for a while, and they call up, I'm guessing they give you a call these days, and they have a new job. Like, do they say, "Sarah, can you give us a price? Or do they just book you in and say, ticking off, here, can you be here on this day?" Like, what happens these days?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so generally, most clients know what they're in for. So I still, still charge the same way. I have the staggered fees, and they know that what those rates are. And then, so they'll just ring up and say, "Hey, we're coming to completion on this project. Can you come out on this day and take photos?" So the other, other flip side of the coin is, if you've got a time lapse project, and these projects, they run from anywhere up to two years. I normally quote the time lapse projects just depending because they have, might have variables about how many cameras they want.

Andrew Hellmich: So you might have 2-3-4 cameras for a time lapse.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct. Yes, just depending on the size of the project. But sometimes you can't, sort of capture everything from one perspective, I guess.

Andrew Hellmich: So what are they actually buying at the end of the day? Let's say there's a multi camera time lapse. Are they buying a video from you at the end of the day, are they buying all those digital files?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, it's rare that they want the digital files. Essentially, it is a video at the end. But the other thing about it is that so the clients get access to a gallery, like a website dedicated to them, so that all the, I guess, vested interested parties can see what's happening on the project on a daily basis. It's also beneficial for them from a security perspective or a safety perspective. They can see, "Hey, this person was on site on this day", or, you know, things like that. So all the people that are involved in the project, not so much the contractors, but the builder, the architect, the client, they can all sort of have access to the gallery and see the process from the other side of the world, if need be.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, so now you've lost me a little bit here, because that means you would have to, and maybe this is done digitally. Do you have to pull the cards out every day and upload them to this website?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, no. So the images are sent from the little box up into the cloud.

Andrew Hellmich: This is a magic box, unreal.

Sarah Louise Jackson: It's magic. Yeah, they go up via Dropbox, or you can nominate a cloud service of your choice. But I use Dropbox, and they all just sit in Dropbox as well as it also saves them to an SSD, so you have sort of have redundancy.

Andrew Hellmich: Inside the box?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct. Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so these boxes, these aren't cheap, are they?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, they're not, but they pay for themselves.,

Andrew Hellmich: Are we talking 10 grand for a box?

Sarah Louise Jackson: It's not quite, well, yeah, you probably are looking at about 10 when you've got the camera and the lens in there as well, just under 10 per box.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And then do you get a notification if, for some reason, something goes wrong, or the photos aren't being recorded?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so within sort of an hour or two if, for example, if somebody's knock the lid, or there's an internet interruption or something like that, you do. You get a text message and an email to say, "Hey, you know, there's something not right here." And then most times it is something silly, like somebody's unplugged your power cord or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, have you had those messages and had a panic like in the middle of the night, thinking, "Oh my god, I gotta get down to the site."

Sarah Louise Jackson: I certainly, yeah, I would be lying if I said I haven't, but in saying that, you've got so many images, 1000s and 1000s of images, so if you know, you miss a couple hours or even a day or two, unless it's a really special milestone day. It's not going to sort of matter too much in the scheme of things.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Got it. Okay, so I'm the builder. I'm calling you for a time lapse job, and it's going to run for two years. How do you price that?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So I price it on a monthly sort of service fee. There's a setup fee to go out and install the cameras. That can be a little bit of a process in terms of, if it's a building in the CBD, you might have to arrange access within, like a neighboring building, and your mounting cameras sort of on the roofs of other buildings in the CBD. So that can be sort of a bit of a process to get sort of permits and things like that. So, yeah, so there's the setup fee, there's a monthly fee, and then there's a fee to remove the cameras, and then a final video fee for the project, I guess, show fee.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So a job like that, if it's a multi camera, a two year time lapse. I mean, I'm going to be up for tens of thousands, surely.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct. Yes, you are.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So this is a pretty big investment.

Sarah Louise Jackson: It is, but I guess in this, I mean, these buildings are, you know, 50 million plus sort of build. So, yeah, it's not, not out of, out of their realm, I guess, to facilitate these sorts of things, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: No, not at all. It's such a small percentage. But I guess from a photographer's point of view, it's like, wow, like it's it is another world for us.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: But maybe not in the building industry.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, I guess I wish I'd been doing it sooner. But..

Andrew Hellmich: Sarah, what about like a more regular day, or what I'd call a regular day where you know, you've got to go in and photograph the end of a job. Do you have an art director? Do you have architects on site saying they want these particular photos? Or they just say, Sarah, just go and do what you do.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. So to be honest, in most cases, it is 'Sarah, go and do what you do.' If it's a new client, sometimes they might sort of come and meet you at the site, but normally I would show up to the building. I might get a little walk around at the start with one of the younger members of the team, and then they sort of leave me to my own devices. I don't bring assistance. Yeah, the less people around, to be honest, is better, because being on a construction site, there's a lot of safety and regulations around safety, so I don't want to be a nuisance to people. I don't want to be seen to be sort of taken over in any sort of way. So I do work very sort of autonomously and quickly and quietly.

Andrew Hellmich: So you, you wouldn't be using any supplementary lighting, are you? Is it just tripod and camera?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I don't Yeah. So my outfit, I have a Think Tank camera bag, which is on a belt system, which houses my camera body, two lenses, and then I have a tripod. And then, of course, the drone is always in the in the car.

Andrew Hellmich: So it's really, it's like a wedding photographer's kit. You're pretty light on.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah, very light on. It's just not a situation that really lends itself to you. Certainly wouldn't want to be leaving anything on the floor that someone could trip over or, yeah, lots of moving parts. You've got machinery moving about, cranes moving about, things like that. So you just have to be very mindful of having a small footprint, I guess.

Andrew Hellmich: So, do they generally, the builder do they have someone with you, you know, watching where you go, making sure you are safe, particularly if there are cranes and deliveries and things happening?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. So I do have safety certification that I can actually work on building sites unattended, but if I'm not, most times there is somebody with me on a construction site. If it's a building that's been completed, I'm pretty much they'll give me a swipe card and say, 'go for it.'

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, and with the two lenses that you mentioned, is one of them a tilt shift lens?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Actually, no, I do have a tilt shift lens, but my length of choice is actually a Nikon 14 to 24 mil. It just can get me out of pretty much any situation. And then I have a 24 to 70. So that's more, if somebody, you know, they want a shot of a builder on site, or a portrait on site, or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Got it? Wow. So you really had traveling like, so you fixing perspective and things like that in post, are you or you just don't need to?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes, yes. In most, most cases, post is perspective and color balance, okay, things like that.

Andrew Hellmich: So, and I'm looking at like on your Instagram feed, it does look like some of these shots with a telephoto lens. Do you have that like in the car, and bring it out on special occasions?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, a lot of the shots on my Instagram are taken with a phone. Believe it or not.

Andrew Hellmich: Get out. Wow, so you must be pretty damn close then to some of these things.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Sarah Louise Jackson: It's pretty cool. Some of the access that you get, I really do feel like sometimes I'm giving the keys to the kingdom, and you get to peek behind the curtain. I mean, I've been like inside the Tiffany and Co safe and operating theaters, and the room where AFL was dreamed up.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. So I'm guessing on these jobs, when you're shooting stills, then you're capturing in raw?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I am, yeah, always in raw.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and so you come back after a shoot, do you do all your own post processing then, or is that outsourced?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, I do it all myself. A lot of the projects that I shoot can be quite sensitive. So I've always been a little bit nervous about sort of sending stuff out.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry, Sarah, sensitive in what regard?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So, for example, a project that I recently worked on is where the cloud lives. So I'm talking about search engines, Internet search engines, and they're very, very secretive, I guess in that arena, that things aren't shared publicly or aren't available to be stolen or anything like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so there's a lot of sort of sensitive projects that I would feel nervous about having out there, so I'm a bit of a control freak in that manner.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Some more security side of things?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So you come back then to your, is it a home studio, or do you have an office?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so I've got a little studio at home. We live in the Dandenong Ranges in the mountains and, yeah, just got a little little space at home that's detached from the house that I work in.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Okay, so you come in, you download your raw files, you do, you edit, I guess you do a cull and edit, and then did you say you upload to a site for the clients to get access?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so I just create a PDF for the clients to make their selections. This is for just normal still photography, and then once they've made their selection, that goes via Dropbox to them. But for the time lapse, there's a website, their own dedicated private password website that they can see imagery on.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you say their own private website. Is this like a Pic-Time or PixieSet, or is it something that sits off your website?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, it's a website that's really organized by the software that you use for the time lapse cameras, so it sort of sits side by side alongside that software, and you can create password protected websites from that software.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you'll upload the time lapse videos there and the stills?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. So the stills, it's basically like a gallery system, so they can flick back to a date and have a look at what was taken on that day. But in terms of downloading, they can't actually download anything from that site.

Andrew Hellmich: They have to come back to you for that.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct, yes, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: All right. So can you touch on the contractual side of things, like, are you issuing, I'm guessing, not copyright, but unlimited usage rights? Can they use the images as they see fit, or does the pricing change as a result of how they want to use the images?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so I basically just provide an unlimited usage agreement. I know a lot of photographers do get caught up on copyright, and I've always erred on the side of, I don't want to make life hard for my clients. I don't want to, I guess, be painful for them. So, you know, if it's an image that I think, you know, I could sell across the board, then maybe we might have a negotiation. But generally, I just give them an unlimited usage agreement.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so in that contract, they sign a contract, right? Am I assuming correctly?

Sarah Louise Jackson: More often than not, it's me signing a contract for them.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, okay.

Sarah Louise Jackson: So it might be an NDA sort of agreement or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, I'm just curious about the copyright. So does it say somewhere that you retain copyright and they have unlimited usage rights?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, so on the bottom of my invoices, I've got, like, a little disclaimer that says that they can use the images as they see fit, but that I do retain the copyright.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Because in Australia, for the listener, just to be clear here, if you're employed as a photographer to produce a set of images for a client, that client automatically owns copyright, unless you retain the copyright or they sign it over to you. Is that correct?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Well, to my knowledge, that's how it works in the wedding and portrait industry, but in the commercial world, my understanding is, and it may have changed, I haven't looked into it for a few years, but that the photographer retains copyright.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, it's different with commercial photography.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah. It certainly has been in the past that the photographer owns the imagery, whereas if it's got a person in a person's face, then they own the image, and you have to ask for your copyright back.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so, and the reason I was asking this line of questioning is I was curious if clients ever say, "Hey, what's this about copyright?" But I'm guessing that never even comes up then, if it's standard practice.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, it's funny. It's becoming more of a thing. So quite often, if you have a few different parties involved in the project, they'll see the images from the builder, and they'll get in touch and say, "Hey, we'd like to use some of the images. Can we get copyright? Or can we, is there a usage fee, or what have you", so that it is becoming more known in the industry, that they do have to ask your permission, whereas once upon a time, you'd see your images everywhere and couldn't do much about it once they're out there.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so talk us through that situation. Let's say you do a job for a builder who's building something for, you know, a warehouse for Costco, and you, you go and do all the photos for the builder, but then Costco turn around and they want to use the images for something else. Would that happen?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Um, not, not too often. Occasionally, that's happened in the past. I did have a scenario quite a few years ago where I did I photograph a university for the builder and the architect somehow got his hands on the images from someone in the building team, and next minute, that photo was in The Age newspaper on a Saturday, sort of raving about the architect and they hadn't credited the builder. Needless to say, the builder wasn't too happy about that, being that they'd paid for the images, but yeah, in most cases, the builder will say, "Hey, our client's interested in having, you know, a few copies of these photos." And in the interest of relationship building, I usually say, yeah, just go for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, right. Because, again, you want to make life easy for your client and get extra work, because these relationships can go on for decades potentially.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Correct. Yes, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, let's say I was a wedding photographer, report to photographer, and I did something like that. There's going to be a hundred maybe even thousand other photographers out there going, "Andrew, you are crazy. You're devaluing the industry, you shouldn't be doing that." Is that happening in your world, too? Is there a lot of other photographers in your genre, you know, setting standards or pushing people to uphold standards?

Sarah Louise Jackson: To be honest, I wouldn't say so. I mean, I pretty much keep to myself a lot, but, I mean, there is a lot of sort of people re sharing and reposting images from Instagram or LinkedIn, which sometimes can be a little bit frustrating, but in most cases, I see you know that people now know, "Hey, you need to get in touch with that photographer and just ask if you can use them." I guess my general rule is, if it's for the builders client, I'll let them have the images. But if it's for, say, a contract on the project, then usually there's a invoice attached.

Andrew Hellmich: From you or from the builder?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, from myself.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so the builder can't give away your images either.

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, unless, unless they've asked for permission, then they're not sort of posting.

Andrew Hellmich: They're not, okay, right. Because that would surely happen. So, I mean, my brother's a carpenter. He does internal fit outs in a lot of big buildings. He often wants photos of his work when it's finished. So if you've got those photos, ideally, he would approach you and purchase them from you, not go to the builder.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. Well, what mostly happens is that they do go to the builder first, and then the builders will then pass on my details, and then they'll come direct.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And then are those prices then for that contractor, the same as what they would be for the builder? Or?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, no, they are less being for the fact that the builders, I guess, copped the cost of my time to be on location, so it is a slightly cheaper rate.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. And in the work that you do, Sarah, are you regularly having to reschedule because of weather? You know, the builder wants blue skies when his cranes are out, or, you know, when he's something happening on site?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes, that is a common occurrence. So it's more due to the landscaping. It's not finished, or they're running a week behind, or something like that. But in terms of weather, actually, favorite to be overcast.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, for sure, you do. But does the builder?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Well, it's just, I guess, teaching them that, "Hey, bright sunny skies aren't always the best outcome"

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. Sometimes they'll say, "Oh, you picked a good day for it." And if it's a sunny day, I'm like, "Oh, no."

Andrew Hellmich: And are you doing things like dropping in blue skies?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I do. I do play with skies quite a bit. To be honest, most of my work is really early in the morning or late in the afternoon. So I like to be on site before the sun's up and photograph the outside as just that first line as it's coming up, or the other side of sunset. And then I'm sort of inside by the time the sunny skies are interrupting the pretty pictures outside.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure. Got it. I just love this. So with the pricing now, so you still like in bundles of image numbers, have your prices changed a lot to when you started?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, I have. I mean, to be honest, I think I'm due for another change soon. Sort of been a bit nervous to take that leap again with the whole of COVID. Then, I guess, just everyone's sort of struggling a little bit. But yeah, no, they're definitely more than what they were when I first started. Sort of, I guess a typical shoot might be, sort of around $3,000 something like that, for just still photography.

Andrew Hellmich: How many images would that be, Sarah?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So that would be the 13 to 30.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, so you still got that same structure exactly.

Sarah Louise Jackson: I do. I do.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah. And I guess I didn't do the whole half daily or daily sort of thing, because normally I'll photograph from, say, six in the morning until 9:30 10 o'clock, and I'm sort of home by 11.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that just in the morning or that a whole day?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, 11am.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, right. Oh, so short,

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah. Unless it's a really big sort of project or a milestone day where they're doing a big concrete pour or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, because you've got kids as well, don't you, and a husband. So like..

Sarah Louise Jackson: I do, I do.

Andrew Hellmich: Is a lot of juggling with family life.

Sarah Louise Jackson: It is, it is. I'm very fortunate. I've got a gorgeous girl who babysits for us, and she'll come at five in the morning, or grandmothers. God bless them. We, yeah, we had certainly have lots of sleepovers. They come and sleep over at our house, actually.

Andrew Hellmich: So that's so good .

Sarah Louise Jackson: Works well.

Andrew Hellmich: Does your husband still work in the building game?

Sarah Louise Jackson: He does. So he works in commercial construction. He's a project director, so he basically sits across a few projects and just mentors. I guess the younger guys sort of coming up on managing projects and things like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. And are you still doing work for the companies that he works for or with?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I do, actually. So the company that he works for is a multinational company, and I do work for their company, but having said that, if I happen to be on one of his sites, it's quite funny. We pretend we don't know each other. Just try and keep it professional, I guess. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I said earlier, and I don't know if I was out of line then when I said that, you know, is it a male dominated world ,the construction photography genre? Is it a genre like, is there competition?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Oh, there certainly is. It's becoming a lot more popular these days with the invention of social media, because especially on LinkedIn, everyone sort of wants a brag praise to say, "Hey, we've just built this", or, "Hey, we've just been awarded this contract." So there's certainly a lot of work out there, I feel, and it's only going to get more. But back to your question with regard to being male dominated, it was when I first started, it was very rare to see women on site. You might see one or two, but now it's actually quite the opposite. It's sort of something that women are really, really getting into. And there's industry bodies, women in construction and things like that. So hands are changing, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: So it's certainly not, no one's surprised when you turn up there as the photographer.

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, not anymore. I guess back in the day, I can honestly say, like it's only ever been to my advantage. You know, back in the day, I might have had to get in Alimak lift, and there might have been 10 fellas, and all of a sudden it's man and, you know, politeness, but yeah, to be honest, I mean, back in the day, I only ever had good experiences people trying to help me. And I think maybe I got away with a little bit more being female. I certainly got away with a lot in terms of security, like security guards and things like that. I guess being female, and I'm only five foot three, so I'm not, I guess, threatening in any way.

Andrew Hellmich: Not intimidating.

Sarah Louise Jackson: No

Andrew Hellmich: Have you got any stories where you know, you've got your gum boots on and you've accidentally stood in the wrong spot after, you know, during a concrete pour, or you're in the way?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Um, I don't think so. Like, I'm always very conscious of being respectful and, you know, placing myself out of the way. I do have a funny story where I did go to one of my husband's building sites. He was the project manager at the time, and one of the young guys was showing me around, and we went into the lift, and there was a lot of graffiti in the lift, and I started reading a few things, and then next thing I ay, "Ben Jackson is a" and I can't say what it said, but..

Andrew Hellmich: And Ben's your husband.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Ben's not my husband yet. So, I mean, I just laugh, like I just laughed. I thought it was hilarious, but the poor guy that was with me, he just went so red after he realized I'd read it.

Andrew Hellmich: Because he knew that Ben was your husband?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes. Or another time, I was photographing some cranes, and one of the guys that was working on the cranes looked suspectly, like an old boyfriend. And once again, this was one of Ben's sites. And I just thought, "Oh my goodness, this would be a bit awkward", like they're both on the same site. But it wasn't. It wasn't.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Let me just take it back quickly to social media, because I know you know, got your LinkedIn profile. You've mentioned LinkedIn a few times. You haven't really talked about Facebook or Instagram, and you've obviously got a great website. When a new client rings you, do you feel like they're coming via one of those social media outlets, or are they checking you out there? If they've heard about you by word of mouth?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, definitely. I don't play on Facebook too much. My clients that just they're not on there for business. It's LinkedIn or Instagram. I do have quite a strong presence on Instagram, and I do see that there's clients that sort of following along, particularly on the stories, like they're following along on what goes on a daily basis. LinkedIn, of course, is where everyone's playing. So construction is very heavy on LinkedIn, but I definitely think, yeah, you do have to have a presence. You do have to sort of show that you are out there working and pushing boundaries, I hope, trying to keep things a bit interesting. And I know that they love it, you know, give them a mention or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So I mean, you say that they're definitely, they're 100% on LinkedIn, that they're following you on Instagram. So how do you know that for sure? Are they leaving comments? Are they contacting you via those social media outlets?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So certainly, messages on Instagram, and of course, you can see sort of who's watched your stories and things like that.

Andrew Hellmich: You'll check those things and see who's been watching.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, like you sort of have the situation where someone might reshare a post that you've done, they might have worked on the project. And so then, initially, I sort of felt a bit splattered like about that, but then I thought about and I thought, "No, this is an opportunity." So instead of sort of getting upset about it, it's more, "Hey, let's get in contact with them and see if perhaps we can work together in the future on the next project."

Andrew Hellmich: This is, Sarah, this is if someone takes one of your photos and shares it?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: And then will you go over them to that profile and make a comment. Or will you just send them a DM?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Usually a DM, I might like it, like the post, or something like that.

Andrew Hellmich: And then send them a message, hoping that we can work together again in the future?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah. Why not turn something into a positive?

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, and when you do get a new inquiry, is it more likely to be a phone call for you or an email?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Email. Yeah, in most cases it is an email. It's, "I've been talking to so and so they recommended you." I feel like sometimes I'm a little bit awkward when I'm speaking, so I'll usually sort of respond by email and then follow up with a phone call like the next day or something like that. But I've always felt I present better in email.

Andrew Hellmich: So in your world, is that original email? Is that similar to what I would get as a wedding and portrait photography? You know, "Love your work. How much do you cost? How much does it cost to have you come and photograph?" Is that sort of the gist of the question?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, pretty much. It's pretty much the same thing. Or, "Hey, we've got this project coming to completion. You know, there's certain aspects that we'd like to capture. It would be great to have a chat about that and find out some pricing." It's usually that sort of, sort of scenario.

Andrew Hellmich: And then so your initial email back, does that include pricing? Or do you want to talk about that on the phone?

Sarah Louise Jackson: No, I do have a set sort of email that I send back, which I created in Canva.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So it's an image.

Sarah Louise Jackson: It's an attachment. So it's about a three or four page document that sort of says, "Hey, thanks for getting in touch. This is what we do. This is the clients that we've worked for pricing", and sometimes in the body of the email that sort of more specific things to the project that they're discussing.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay. So you're not, you're not, certainly not hiding prices. You're happy to put them out there in that initial email, are you then in that first email, are you asking the client to call you back, or do you say something like, "I'll give you a call tomorrow to follow up?"

Sarah Louise Jackson: Oh, no, definitely. I phone them, these people, they're busy people, and I think it's important that I follow them up rather than the other way.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so that follow up call. Just give me an idea of how that runs. Is it? "Hi, I'm Sarah, the photographer you reached out to." Is that it? And then you go from there?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, it's basically, "Hey, I'm Sarah. Thanks for your email yesterday. Just wanted to touch base with you. So any questions you have, can we talk a little bit more about the project? When do you need the images by?", that sort of thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and do you get the sense that they're emailing two or three photographers, or they're just, they've got your name, they're coming to you. They want you.

Sarah Louise Jackson: I think, I mean, I'm, I'm sure that there is probably, you know, a bit of price shopping around, but generally, most people are coming to me because they've seen the work, or they've been referred by a friend within the industry. So they've got a little bit of knowledge about sort of how everything works anyway.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, got it. And for you in your world, is the same for me, where if I'm booked for a wedding date, I'll try and refer a friend, a photographer that I know, like and trust, to the client. Do you do the same thing?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, definitely, definitely. There's a few photographers here in Melbourne that are certainly people that are very happy to recommend.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. That you would be happy to.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah. There's a couple of gentlemen, and they know who they are, that are just invaluable. And I've got the greatest respect for.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, nice. So good, Sarah, I love this. What about for the listener that's just heard you talking about your amazing job for the last hour, and they're thinking, "Oh, look, I'd like to give this a try." First of all, is it a good idea? And where would you start? Would you start with domestic type building builders and architects? Would you go straight into high rise?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, I probably would start with sort of the smaller contractors, and they might be a little bit more approachable in terms of, they might not have a lot of content, or that they're putting together a website or something like that. So that's where I'd start. I'd start perhaps, you know, finding companies, if you're watching things on LinkedIn and you say, see a company that you know you'd like to work for, there's no harm in getting in contact and putting yourself out there. I just think every time I've done that, it's paid off.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure, and sending a voucher.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, like, it's scary, but I don't know. It's just it has always paid off.

Andrew Hellmich: I like that. And would it be a good idea to say if you did some research and knew that say the Masters Builders Association were having their awards, could you leave with something like that? "Hey, look, the awards are coming up."

Sarah Louise Jackson: Absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: "Your building looks amazing. Not sure if you have a photographer yet. Here's a voucher."

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, or, you know, if it's something in your local area, "Hey, I've been watching this, this building go up, you know, I'm a photographer. I'd really love to capture it for you", something like, you know, along those lines.

Andrew Hellmich: So good, Sarah, you have been amazing. Where is the best place for the listener to see more of your work and follow along with what you're doing?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I definitely say Instagram. Yeah, that's where I sort of play the most, I guess, which is sarah_louise_photography, or LinkedIn. My LinkedIn handles really, really long and drawn out, but that was something that I think I got from one of your podcasts in that..

Andrew Hellmich: From Jeff Brown, yeah.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah. Very clever, very clever.

Andrew Hellmich:
Cool. He's coming back on because I think there's been quite a few changes with LinkedIn. He's coming back on to talk about the updates.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Great. Oh, I'll listen to that.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So I can see I'm looking at your LinkedIn. Your LinkedIn profile is Sarah Louise Jackson, - Construction Photographer - Drone Pilot, R, E, P, L.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it, optimized to the hilt.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Look, Sarah, I'm going to add links to those profiles in the show notes so listeners can follow along. I haven't asked you, I don't even know, but do you mentor in this stuff?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Look, I'm happy to, I've, I guess, had a little bit of that over the years, students sort of coming and spending, you know, a day or two here or there, but, yeah, it's something I'm more than happy to do. I'd like to do a lot more of it.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. All right, like I said, I'll add your details and links in the show notes so people can follow up with you if they want to take that further.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Great.

Andrew Hellmich: Just to finish off, Sarah, what's your next dream piece of equipment?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Um, oh, goodness.

Andrew Hellmich: Is there a list? Or have you got your eye on one thing?

Sarah Louise Jackson: Well, I do want to upgrade some of my Nikon cameras up to the Z series.

Andrew Hellmich: Z series. Yeah.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah, but probably my next thing will be one of the bigger drones.

Andrew Hellmich: So what are you flying now?

Sarah Louise Jackson: I'm flying a Mavic Air 2, but I have got a license to fly up to a 25 kilo drone, which is basically used for sort of farming and mining and things like that. So that's probably what I would really like to get soon.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So what do you get with that size drone?, I mean, you get a better quality camera. Do you get to fly further distances, higher, what's the benefit?

Sarah Louise Jackson: So you can do things like crops spraying.

Andrew Hellmich: A photograph, a crop being sprayed.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Well, no, they actually have the facility to put, like, tanks on them. So the drone can be used instead of just photography. You can be, you know, spraying vegetation or things like that. There's so many different uses

Andrew Hellmich: So you would actually come up with other commercial uses for the drone in addition to photography.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Absolutely, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: All right. Well.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, I think drones are just the way of the future. They're incredible. What's being done with them already and I think it's just going to go on and on.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, because I know they've been using the power line industry for inspection and cleaning and even putting out fires now, like they're incredible.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely an industry that's going to grow and grow, provided people are safe and respectful of the air ways.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Well, that's why you need all those licenses, yeah.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Look, Sarah, I'll leave it there. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing all that, you've blown me away. What an amazing business you have. And again, like massive thanks for coming on and sharing what you have.

Sarah Louise Jackson: Andrew, thank you so much. It's been an absolute honor. And I love your show, and I just feel very, really, really blessed to be asked to come on.

Andrew Hellmich: My pleasure. Thank you, Sarah.