128: Raymond Hatfield – Making the Leap to Full Time Photographer

128: Raymond Hatfield – Making the Leap to Full Time Photographer

 

Andrew Hellmich: This is an interview I've been waiting to do since the start of the podcast. Today's guest is longtime listener and supporter of PhotoBizX Exposed, Raymond Hatfield. I've been chatting to Raymond via email on and off since the show started. He was actually the photographer who inspired me to have my email signature done a little while ago. Anyway, Raymond recently told me that he was getting ready to quit his full time job and go full time with his photography business. He's recently made the leap, and he's here to share his experiences. Raymond, welcome mate.

Raymond Hatfield: Oh my gosh, powerful. Andrew, that was amazing. That was so awesome. Thank you so much for having me.

Andrew Hellmich: That's my pleasure mate. So you're not actually at home at the moment. Where are you?

Raymond Hatfield: No, no, right now. I'm taking a nice stroll. I'm back in where I grew up, Northern California, so just enjoying the weather.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. And so where's home for you?

Raymond Hatfield: Home right now? Where I guess my market is, is Indianapolis, Indiana.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And is that for the people that don't know that area, including me, is that a big city?

Raymond Hatfield: Well, I guess it was voted by Forbes as the next big city, but it really hadn't taken off, supposedly, since the Super Bowl came a few years ago, and now it's just blossoming and growing exponentially. So it's been fantastic.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so it's a good time for you to be kicking off the photography business.

Raymond Hatfield: Excellent time for me.

Andrew Hellmich: So give us a bit of a background, Raymond. How long have you been shooting for, and what has been your full time day job up until recently?

Raymond Hatfield: Sure. Well, I always knew that I wanted to do something, I guess, photographically. I went to school for cinematography, and I quickly learned that it is nowhere near as creative as a job that I had hoped that it was in high school, where all that I had to do was make a short little movie, and then I wouldn't have to write an essay, and I'd still get an A on it. But after I went to film school, there was a lot of unions, like the writers had went on strike and the actors had went on strike as well. So nobody was working in the industry. And in LA, my apartment, my rent was $2,100 a month, and you can't afford that on a $0 income. So I had to move back to Northern California, where I grew up. And I met up with a local photographer who shot weddings every once in a while, and I followed him around, and I just absolutely fell in love with it. But part of the problem was, obviously, is that I grew up near Napa, and Napa is a huge wedding destination location, and therefore, because it's so pretty, there's a lot of photographers out here. And at the same time, I had met my now wife, who grew up in Indiana, and her family was going through some issues, so we decided to move back for a little bit, with the ultimate goal of still returning to California and hoping that the industry would be better, and I'd still get into film, but after moving out there, completely fell in love with it. It's an entirely different way of life. It's very relaxed. People are very friendly, and we decided to stay so I figured, all right, what am I going to do to make myself happy? There's no film industry, but I love photography because I always kept a camera around to keep my, I guess skill, sharp, and it was just kind of a natural progression. I got into that, and then it just blew up from there.

Andrew Hellmich: So were you actually making money from photography as soon as you moved to Indianapolis, or did you have another job to support it?

Raymond Hatfield: No, no, when I first moved out here, because I really didn't know anybody, I had actually sold all my camera gear, now that I think about it, right before I moved, which was a horrible decision, but it was all but it was all kind of entry level gear, but I just took a job at some local factory. That was the worst thing I've ever experienced in my life. And I somehow survived two years of that. And in that time, I think that I only shot two weddings, so 2012 I had shot two weddings. 2013, at the same time, my wife was going back to school to become an RN, and she was pregnant, so we had our son, Charlie, who made it very difficult, I guess, to leave the house at first to shoot weddings. So in 2013 I shot zero weddings.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, wow.

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah. But because of, I guess, exposure that I got from the two weddings that I shot in 2012, people became interested, and then I just hated my factory job so much that I thought I have to go hard at this. I have to do everything that I can to become successful and just do what I love to do. So that's exactly what I did. I slowly tried to learn some SEO, learn marketing. I made myself a Facebook page. I thought I had this idea that if I do it the way that I want to do it, I'll succeed. I don't want to have a Facebook page. I don't want to have business cards. I don't want to, you know, even have client contact. I just want to show up, shoot a wedding and then leave. But very quickly, I found out that you don't book very many weddings that way, so you have to play ball a little bit. So in 2014 I ended up shooting eight weddings, and then this year I have almost 20.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. That is awesome.

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, it's been great.

Andrew Hellmich: So when did you leave the factory job? Has that been your sole job or your only job up until now?

Raymond Hatfield: No, no, I hated that so much that I took another job at the nation's largest trucking company. So it's kind of still nowhere related to photography. But I liked that, because that meant that when I would go to work and I would just loathe my job, which everybody does, all that I would do is think about photography and think about how I could better myself and my business to get to a point to where I don't have to show up and wear the suit and tie every single day.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Yeah, I totally get that. Okay, so when did you actually give notice? Was that recently?

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, it was just a few weeks ago. Actually, the transportation industry, I don't know if it's just here in America, but it's so secretive, I suppose, that when you put in your two weeks, they just make you leave right there, because they assume that you already have some sort of other transportation job, and then they don't want you to share secrets. So they let me go right there at that moment, which I timed perfectly, because I had three weddings back to back to back. So that was excellent as well. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect, mate. I know you're out walking. I'm just starting to get some interference coming in. Are you walking under some power lines or near a tower?

Raymond Hatfield: Probably, like I said, it's that old HP building. So let me see if I can walk across the street. It's a little more residential.

Andrew Hellmich: So just for the listener, I asked Raymond, has he got somewhere to sit quietly to do the interview? And what did you say you prefer to be walking because the creative juices flow better?

Raymond Hatfield: Oh, absolutely. Science, you know, proves the same thing. And if you say otherwise, then I don't know, you just don't enjoy being a human, I guess.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're doing this on your phone. You haven't got a laptop strapped to your chest?

Raymond Hatfield: Right, right? As scary as that is, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, I really want to go through the, I guess, the process. So you mentioned your gear. You know, in the beginning that you sold all your gear had, which was entry level stuff, you make this decision to go full time. When do you start building up the gear, and how much gear do you think that you're going to need to go full time?

Raymond Hatfield: Oh, geez. Well, everybody, in the beginning, when they decide to do photography full time, everybody has this like gear fascination, and they have to have it all. They have to have the best cameras, the best lenses, the best everything. And of course, I fell into that trap. But having a limited budget, you can't afford all that, so you just do what you can. So I started off right when I moved to Indiana, I bought a Canon 40D, which, even at the time, was a bit of an older camera, 10 megapixels. But I figured, you know what, I'm just getting into this, and it'll be fine for the time being. I had a, you know, I had a 51.4 and one of those crop sensor 17 to 55/2.8 and that's all that I had. And then slowly, as you know, as weddings got more intense, I figured out what other gear I needed, and needed a better flash. And then my flash died on me one wedding, so maybe I need another flash. And then suddenly you figure out that, you know, it heats up. Maybe I should bump up the ISO. But the ISO is horrible at, you know, 1600 on the Canon 40D. So at that point I realized maybe it is time for me to upgrade my body. And then I got the Canon 5D Mark II. Even though the Mark III was out, I rationalized it by saying, "You know what? At one point, this the Canon 5D Mark II was an industry standard. So because of that, I'm going to put my faith in it, and I'm just going to go with it." And I bought it, best decision that I ever made. I got it and a 24 to 72.8 for just under $2,000 and the guy who owned it before used it only for video, so it had under like a thousand to shutter clicks.

Andrew Hellmich: Actuations. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: There you go. Yeah. So it was fantastic. And it wasn't until just two weeks ago that I picked up the Canon 5D Mark III, and once again, best decision that I ever made.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, mates, we still got that horrible noise in the background.

Raymond Hatfield: I guess I could go home try to connect your Wi Fi and give you a call back. Would that be any better?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, for sure. We can try that. For sure.

Raymond Hatfield: I'm sorry about this.

Andrew Hellmich: No, it's all good, so good. I'll talk to you in a minute. Okay, so we've got you back after we've taken you back home to get a better connection. We got rid of that noise. So that's great. I think the last question I was asking you, Raymond, was about your gear, and you made these big decisions to go with a 5D Mark II, and now the 5D Mark III, and you were saying they were good decisions to make.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, you know, I thought that they were good decisions, or I think that they were good decisions, rather, because I upgraded with my experience. So I started off with the 4 DD, which is, you know, a prosumer camera. And then, because I still wasn't a full time wedding photographer, I got a used full frame camera, which was great. And now I finally bought myself a brand new one that weddings are taking off and that I can justify the price now.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure. So those first couple of weddings that you did photograph, they were with, you know, a lot less a camera gear than what you have now.

Raymond Hatfield: Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. It was literally one body. It was a film body, just in case the 40 D died, and, you know, two lenses, and that was it. It was very bare bones. And I think that was good, because I always tried to buy as much gear as possible. I loved having all the newest, cool tech stuff. And that's one of the things that I always loved about photography, is that it has all of those cool, fun tech things but having to bring very minimal gear and deciding, you know, what is most important, was great, because now I just literally have a fanny pack with two other lenses in it, and then another camera body in the car, just in case something goes wrong.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. So you still pretty novel with the way you're approaching it.

Raymond Hatfield: Yes, yes. And now, obviously this approach to bringing as little gear as possible has really made me take an eye for the new Fuji system for sure.

Andrew Hellmich: You won't be the first, that's for sure.

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Talk me through, I guess, some of the conversations that you had with your wife when you were, you know, looking at going full time leading up to giving up the full time job.

Raymond Hatfield: Well, you know, a lot of it is, I had a full time income, and it was a very good income, and I legitimately liked my job at the trucking company, but deep down, it didn't make me happy. It didn't fulfill this need that I've always had, or this desire since, you know, high school, to create, whether it be images or, you know, moving images in video. So she's always known that I've wanted to do this, and that's actually how we met as well. We met while, while I was in film school, and she had similar interests as well. So she's always been on board with me. She always has known that this is my true passion, and that this is what makes me happy, and she's always been right behind me 100% of the way, every single time, telling me to go for my dream. So she has been perfect in that aspect. But of course, there's a lot of things that you do have to take into account. Money is the biggest one, and the weddings that I have for this year don't equal up to the income that I had at my trucking job. But where we save money is obviously in childcare. If I would continue to work at that job, we'd have to pay for childcare, which would diminish how much I'd bring home, equaling what I'm going to take home this year just from photography. So it made sense just to make the jump right now.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Oh, that's good. So you actually did the sums, and things did add up once you looked at the finances, it certainly wasn't a blind leap, because I imagine you've got expenses.

Raymond Hatfield: Oh, 100% you know. And one of the great things about photography is that, you know, it's, it's a relatively cheap business to start on your own, even just having a few $2,000 cameras and a few $1,000 lenses and a few flashes, still much cheaper than having to buy, you know, like a repairman's van and then fill that up with tools. So, in that aspect, I've been very lucky that my passion just so happens to be something that relatively cheap, I guess, in terms of owning a business. But as far as personal things, you know, we own a house, so we do have a mortgage. But growing up here in California, I thought that I'd never own a home, but moving out to Indiana, I mean, we bought one right away, and it was just one of the best decisions. But even still then I've also been very lucky that my wife is a nurse, and she makes good money as well. So everything did add up, which I've been very, very happy about.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good. It's so good. So when you were looking at this, I guess this lead up to leaving the full time job, and I guess it was in the back of your head for a little while. Did you have a number of weddings that you wanted to see on the books before you make this jump?

Raymond Hatfield: Well, yes and no, the short answer is, yeah, I wanted at least 20 to do. But the reason why I quit much sooner than that was because the new program that my wife is in for school, her schedule is completely different. So because of that, is the reason why we would have to have child care. If it would have stayed the course and she would have had the same schedule as she did before, I probably would have stayed until the end of the year, waited out through winter and quit this time next year. But, you know, luckily I didn't have to do that

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, okay, and what did work say when you gave you notice?

Raymond Hatfield: Well, they all knew, you know, obviously wedding photographers like to show off their stuff. You know, as creative as we are, I guess not to toot our own horns. But you know, things get out, and people know, and they want to ask, and you know, when they say, "What are your plans this weekend?" And you say, "Well, actually, I'm shooting a wedding." You know, they want to see your work, and they get interested. And the job that I had, you know, we were very close, and everybody was super supportive. So again, I was just incredibly lucky to have that support at my job, to quit and just follow exactly what it is that I wanted to do. But you do feel bad. You know there's that part in the back of your head that feels bad for leaving your family of co-workers, and you're now friends, to have them make up your slack, because the positions that we had, our work was our work. It couldn't just be pawned off onto somebody else, and that's what it was going to have to do. But what you have to, you know, ask yourself, is, is what's more important? You know, you have to look out for yourself, and looking out for others is a very good thing. But when it comes to, I guess, following your passions, you have to be the number one person who you think about and your family. So making that decision was as much as it sucked for them, I had to make it.

Andrew Hellmich: I was gonna ask you about fear. But just before we get into that, What's your wife's name?

Raymond Hatfield: Stormy.

Andrew Hellmich: Stormy. That's awesome. So, yeah, so there must have been a conversation at some stage, you know, dinner or lying in bed that you said to Stormy. "Okay, I think tomorrow's the day I'm going to hand in my notice."

Raymond Hatfield: No, it was all her decision actually, I was still, you know, par for the course to stay until this time next year. You know, she handles most of the finances in the house, and she said, "You just need to quit. This would be better for us", because we worked opposite schedules having a child, that way we wouldn't have to pay for child care. So we worked opposite schedules, we rarely got to see each other, and this way afforded us being able to spend more time with each other. I mean, I can't remember the last time that we had a home cooked meal together and sat down together and got to eat it. So it was hard. You know, there was a lot of times where it was hard on our family life. So making this decision was ultimately her idea.

Andrew Hellmich: So this is much a lifestyle decision for you guys, as well as a financial and business decision. It sounds like it's a good thing all around. When Stormy said to you, "Okay, Raymond, you need to chuck this thing in and go full time with the photography." Did your heart take a leap? Were you thinking, "Oh, crap, I'm scared, or this is awesome?"

Raymond Hatfield: Of course. Well, it was both. You know, it has to be. Of course you're gonna think, can I really do it? I don't have enough weddings on the book. I'm still, you know, on the seventh page of Google, like, how are bookings coming to me? And you're trying to figure these things out, and you know, if it's a good idea. But ultimately, like Kristen Kalb said, "That's just your brain being an asshole, and you got to do what you know you feel is right, and you got to take the leap." So that's exactly what we did.

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. That's so good. All right, you said earlier there that you didn't want to have a Facebook page, you didn't want to have business cards, you wanted to do things your way. Why did you want to take that approach?

Raymond Hatfield: I don't know. I think it was just because, you know, in high school I was and I think it's something that just creatives do. They don't like to brag about themselves, they don't like to share their stuff, I guess. But it's the ones who do that are truly successful. You know, there's a difference between bragging about yourself and being proud of yourself and marketing. You know, marketing, that's the only reason why I have a Facebook, you know. And I enjoy making those connections. I enjoy sharing what I post. I like people liking my stuff, as selfish as that sounds, I like it when people like what I do. And ultimately, making a Facebook page was a great decision in that aspect. And because of Facebook, whether it be through Facebook ads there for a while or just through mutual connections, it's gained me a few weddings. So anybody who doesn't get a Facebook, just think of the profit that could be lost there.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. All right, let's go back to you had these two weddings in the bag. You don't shoot any weddings the year after.

Raymond Hatfield: Right.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and then you go to eight and then 20.

Raymond Hatfield: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: How did that happen?

Raymond Hatfield: Well, to be honest, a lot of it those first two were just mutual contact. Well, no one was the mutual contact that I shot for, I think it was like $500 you know, the average first wedding that you shoot, and it just went on a disc. The second one was my cousin. She was always behind me, 100% going through film school, and she knew what I put out, so she saw work. And, you know, those turned out great. I shot that one for free. But then, yeah, this eight that was a big thing. You look online more, you look at other wedding photographers, you figure out what it is that they're doing. At some point it becomes a business and it becomes less about the art of photography. So you have to get good at business. And the only way to get good at business is by either one doing it, or two being around people who do it very well. So I didn't know any photographers, so of course, you know, I emailed wedding photographers, asked if I could second shoot with them, and they all said, "Nope, sorry." So I thought, you know what? I just got to do it on my own, you know. So I looked online. I looked at all these resources. I found Creative Live. Creative life is fantastic. It's a free resource that so few people take advantage of. I found even on Reddit, you know, Reddit has a huge wedding photography community, and again, it's like a family of people, and it's great because everybody's in a different market, Miami, Baltimore, Toronto, me in Indianapolis, Atlanta. Everybody's from everywhere. So because of that, you can talk with other photographers who aren't in your market, figure out what's working for them. And then, based on that, you hear that people are listening to podcasts. So you search for podcasts, and then you find the PhotoBizX Podcast, and then that day your life changes. And from the information that you gained from that, you decide you know what, I'm going to become a premium member. And then that day becomes the day that your life changes, and then your business just grows exponentially. I mean, if you I really think that if you take advantage of everything that your guests talk about, there's no way that your business cannot grow.

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. That's awesome to hear. And I didn't pay you for that.

Raymond Hatfield: No, that is absolutely true. I am a die-hard PhotoBizX fan, and it's only because of what I've seen it do for my business. You know, from listening to people like Kristen Kalp, you know, "Go your own way, do what it is that you want to do, be yourself." That's a huge thing that a lot of people don't do. You know, my first website was, my About Me, like every other person's is- I've been capturing images since I was, you know, old enough to hold a camera, and that's what I want to do, and I'm going to make you look so pretty. And it's just horrible. There's no personality, and you're About Me. And then even the images that I showed, you know, everybody, everybody says, "Show what you want to shoot, and shoot what you want to show." And I don't know why, but in the back of my head, I always thought, "You know what, if you're a photographer, you got to be a jack of all trades. You got to, you know, you got to shoot it exactly how they want it." But it sounds like the real happiness comes from finding people who love the way that you shoot. When you shoot, the way that you want to shoot, and you enjoy your job and people like that about you that's not only going to make shooting a whole lot easier for you, but it's going to be a whole lot more satisfying for you. So that's what I did. I went on my website. I changed my About Me to not be so cookie cutter. I took off all the images that I thought were very Pinteresty or cute, that I thought that brides wanted to see, and I picked all the images that I wanted to show, all the images that I want people to like. And since then, you know, on top of David Perez, his SEO, that eBook changed my website forever. I never thought that so much as adding, you know, file names to each individual image as tedious and as much of a pain it is to do that yields huge, huge, huge results just in Google alone. And doing that, as I said earlier, I was on the seventh page of Google. I don't think any bride has ever been on the seventh page of Google, you know, to find a wedding photographer. But if you search for not only Indianapolis wedding photographer, but and I hate to toot my own horn, best Indianapolis wedding photographer, I'm the first human result, and that's only because of SEO. You know, of course, there's The Knot, there's The Wedding Wire and all these other blogs that talk about who the best are, but I'm the first actual human, and trust me, um, I hope that none of my clients are listening to this, but I'm not the best Indianapolis wedding photographer, so that's purely because of SEO and everything that you know your guests, especially David Perez, has done for my business.

Raymond Hatfield: That is so good. That is so good.

Raymond Hatfield: Absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: So all right, I've got a few things I want to ask you, just talked about then, because you said so much. And I love the way you've changed your website and you're showing what you want to show and saying who you really are. It's awesome. So when you shot these first two weddings and then you did nothing for year afterwards, Where were those two weddings? Were they sitting somewhere online for people to see to get the next eight?

Raymond Hatfield: You mean, was I showing the weddings that I shot to get more weddings?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I mean, because, yeah, basically had a year off after you shot two weddings. So anyone, anyone that looked at would think, "Well, hang on, this guy is just a weekend guy, he's done two weddings. There's nothing else to see."

Raymond Hatfield: Well, you know, with those two weddings, and having been a cinematographer, I had always had a camera in my hand, so I had attended weddings, and I had taken a few photos. So I never got any model releases. And I never should have put those images on my website, but I did anyway to make it look like I had more weddings. Because, you know, everybody says, fake it till you make it. And that's absolutely true. I think that's absolutely true. But again, I had a whole section dedicated to, you know, my personal life, which was my cat, you know, going to a farmers market, just all the typical stuff that a brand new photographer has. And it was making the decision to only show weddings, to specialize in just weddings, which made a huge change for me. So I guess, you know, from that point, it looked like I only had six or seven, but again, I wasn't charging $2,000 a wedding. I was still charging, you know, five, $600 to shoot your wedding, and then from there, I had more images to show. But in that year off, I mean, I had this idea that if I put a website out there, people would just start calling me. And that never happens, that never, ever happens. You know, you really have to put in work. It's not just showing up, taking pictures, and then everybody's gonna flock in your direction. And if that is how you know, you got to be a successful wedding photographer, then you have the coolest story in the world. But unfortunately, you know, for me and a lot of other wedding photographers, it's not that easy. So I think that that's good, because that weeds out a lot of people who really don't take it seriously. You know, the people who do have these images of everything that they've ever taken on their website. It's not until you do have, like, a specific specialty, that you know you're going to be taken seriously for that. So in that year that I took off, it was because I wasn't marketing myself. I didn't have a Facebook page, my website, like I said, showed a range of everything. So of course, nobody's going to contact me. Nobody had a way of finding me. It wasn't until I started putting in work specifically just for the website, you know, and another resource, Craigslist in America is looked at as the most basic budget photographer in the world. And you know, if you use Craigslist and it books you weddings, then congratulations, you know, that's awesome. You're booking weddings. But for me, I never wanted to take that route, but I did find a website called Thumbtack. And again, I'm going to get a lot of heat for using Thumbtack from people, because the way that it works is, for those of you who don't know, a bride puts out like an ad essentially, "I'm getting married X date, X amount of people are showing up. My budget is X. Submit a quote." You know, and whatever you want. So I signed up for this website.

Andrew Hellmich: And you booked weddings?

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah. Well, it can be for anything. It could be, you know, "I have a heating doctor that needs repaired, who can fix it?", "I have somebody who needs to paint my house, who can do it?", or "I'm getting married", and they need a photographer, and that's, you know, what I signed up for. And, you know, I get it. A lot of the people who go on those websites are budget brides, but when you're starting out like, that's fine, as long as you get more material to show on your website, because if you go and you shoot the way that you want to shoot, you're going to have images that you can show on your website. And that's what's going to gain to or lead to more bookings. And once I did that, you know, that took off, I booked like six weddings just from Thumbtack. And you know what, from those Thumbtack weddings, I've gotten referral after referral after referral, and that, again, because of you, is customer service. So just leaving them with a really good taste in their mouth is going to make them want to tell all their friends about you.

Andrew Hellmich: That is so good. I want to understand how your website developed. So you started putting these photos up, showing the images that you want to show. And you said that just having a website isn't enough. People aren't going to just come flocking to your website and book you.

Raymond Hatfield: Right

Andrew Hellmich: So you use Craigslist and you use Thumbtack.

Raymond Hatfield: No, no, no, Craigslist.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, you didn't use that at all, like you just used Thumbtack.

Raymond Hatfield: Uh huh

Andrew Hellmich: And did you do anything else? How did you, I mean, were referrals coming from anyone else outside of your clients?

Raymond Hatfield: No, and that's part of the thing. I mean, my wife, we moved back to her hometown, essentially, and she had a large network of people. You know, she knew a lot of people, and going to school, going to work, she interacted with a lot of people throughout the day. And she was a much larger billboard for me than I was for myself, which ultimately did book me, like quite a few weddings. But I don't want to make it sound like she's the reason for my success, because for those listeners who aren't, you know, married or have somebody who is just, you know, as for them to succeed, as my wife is for me, I don't want them to get discouraged, you know. So maybe I wouldn't be where I am right now. No, I definitely wouldn't be where I am right now without her. But you know, when you book a wedding, it's usually not for another year. So in 2013 I guess, technically, I did book some weddings, but they were for 2014 but it wasn't until 2014 that I shot those weddings that then I started to get referrals.

Andrew Hellmich: For 2015.

Raymond Hatfield: Well, yeah, for actually, later on in 2014 as well as 2015 yeah, and then finding sites like Thumbtack. I mean, I'm just now getting to the point to where I'm shooting those weddings that I got referrals for. So up until this point, it's just been, you know, hustling as hard as you can, making sure that everybody knows that you're a wedding photographer, making sure that you know you post something on your Facebook every single day, and that was a huge thing for me. Like, even if you just go back three months, I guess, and you looked at my Facebook page, there'd be one post, maybe two, from every wedding that I shot. But I went to a Sam Heard workshop, which, if you haven't been, or if it ever comes to you go like, he's a master, and he is just completely transparent, and he will answer any and all questions that you have. He is just a fantastic resource. But, you know, one of the things that he said was, "Stay at it, you know, post every single bit, because you know, people will follow your pages, maybe they won't see the post from yesterday, and they're not going to know every wedding that you shot." And if you just post images saying, you know, like, "How beautiful is this dress.", "This flower girl is so lovely, you know, don't you agree?" Just getting interactions, getting people to know who you are, including, you know, the brides from those weddings that you shot, maybe they'll share that, and they share that somebody sees your page. You know, you never know where these connections are going to come from. So that's a huge, important thing as well. But it's always been that year of 2013 where, I guess, you know, I didn't shoot any weddings. It was still hustling. We were still trying to get these weddings. And I'm just now getting to the point to where I shouldn't say this, but I guess I'm getting comfortable the weddings that I am booking. It's not scary. It's not like that new job feel anymore. It's like, "Okay, this is work. This is what I got to do, and I'm going to go hard at it."

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. That is so good. One of the questions I had down to ask you was about other resources, because I know that you obviously listen to the podcast ,you mentioned Reddit and Creative Live. And now, Sam Heard, when you go to a community like Reddit, when you first turn up there, it's got to be a little bit daunting. And you're saying now they're like family almost. You know, you can go in there and ask questions and get advice and help and give advice. How was that when you first turned up to Reddit?

Raymond Hatfield: You know, I've been on Reddit for quite a while, and I actually just booked my first Reddit wedding. A couple found me on Reddit, which is great, because, again, like-minded people, but if you've never been to Reddit, it can be kind of scary, because it's such a large community. Probably the only things that you've ever heard about Reddit are either bad things or scary things, or how they thought that they identified like the Boston bomber and it was wrong and they arrested like the wrong guy, or something like that. But you have to point yourself in the right direction, and you have to take everything that you hear with a grain of salt, which is why I love listening to as many people as possible. You know, Sal Cincotta, he's a great resource. You know, a lot of the things that he says maybe I don't agree with, I don't agree that it has to be as structured and black and white as he says that it has to be. But he'll say something every once in a while, that it's like, "You know what? I'm going to implement that piece of information in my business, and when I do that, it becomes a hit." So like I said, you have to take everything that you hear with a grain of salt. And I think that the only way that you can learn is through mistakes. So don't be scared to make mistakes, you know. If you go out in this community and you find these people and they say, "You know what, the only way to make money is, you know, by selling albums, you have to hard sell those albums, and that's what you got to do to make money." And you do that, and you find that it doesn't work or that you don't enjoy it. Some people don't like making albums. I didn't enjoy making albums until I found a Kiss Album Builder. It's the best, you just drag and drop it builds an album for you, you know, you can move things around. And now, instead of it taking a week to build an album, I can do it in a day, which is fantastic, but you're not going to find those things until you put yourself out there in these communities and find people and you talk to them, the more that you talk to these people, the more that they're going to trust you, and the more that they're going to tell you. I've spoken with photographers just to say, "Hey, you know what? I just created a pricing guide because I heard Kurt Mastin on your podcast, and he shared his, and I decided to make one for myself." So I reached out on Reddit, well, not on Reddit, but to Reddit wedding photographers to say, "Hey, can you guys look at this pricing PDF that I just made and just give me some, you know, creative feedback." And they did, the changes that they told me to make, some of them, you know, I didn't really like, but others were fantastic. They said, "Make your pricing look much easier. Go from highest package to lowest package. Don't go from lowest package to highest package, because suddenly you become more and more expensive instead of coming less and less expensive." And when it comes to brides booking you, they're going to want to deal, you know, it's all about psychology of pricing, and once you figure that out, then you're good. But if you don't, like I said, put yourself in these situations, you're not going to figure that out on your own, and if you do, then you're just some sort of business genius, which I'm not. You know, I've told you this before, but it's like a lot of us grew up with cameras in our hands and not business manuals. I guess it would be a business manual, if that's a thing. So it's reaching out to these other people and just putting yourself in situations to where you hear what others have to say, and that's when you're going to grow.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I love it. Great advice. And like you said, you can take what you want to take and implement that and throw the rest away.

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, absolutely.

 
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Andrew Hellmich: Mate, last question for you, have you ever had an embarrassing moment or stuff up that you're happy to share?

Raymond Hatfield: Oh, you know what? Not really. I mean, I've been..

Andrew Hellmich: You mean, not yet.

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. I mean, I haven't really been doing this long enough to experience, you know, the trenches of everyday wedding photography, I guess, you know, I take that back, I did kind of make a mistake, but this wasn't on a wedding day. I once sent, I sent a bride an album, and she okayed it, and I okayed it, but I still should have seen this. There were two things wrong. The wedding date was wrong, as well as the photo in the album of her and each individual bridesmaid, it was like nine separate photos accidentally included the same bridesmaid three times. I don't know how that happened, and she missed it too. So she got it, and I realized that I made the mistake. So of course, I reprinted it, and I had her send me that copy back, because I like the album so much that now I use it to show other couples. They're not going to see the three brides, and they're not going to know that the wedding date was wrong. So I kind of used it as a business expense. But as far as being there on the wedding day, well, you know, I called out a deceased father once, and a recently deceased father, you know, and I should have known, because the bride brought that up in my, you know, month before questionnaire.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, right.

Raymond Hatfield: And I guess I just forgot, in the heat of the wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: That happens.

Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, you know, I'm listening to a lot of your guests. I'm bringing multiple pairs of pants. I'm bringing, you know, I'm preparing myself because I know one day it's gonna happen.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, man, you know what? I've got a full change of outfit now in my car. Ridiculous.

Raymond Hatfield: It's genius. That's exactly what I should do.

Andrew Hellmich: You know, that's crazy, and I only wear black underwear now.

Raymond Hatfield: Oh, that's a great idea. Now I have to go to the store.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, it has been an absolute pleasure. And like I said, I've been looking forward to doing an interview like this

Raymond Hatfield: Oh my.

Andrew Hellmich: With a listener that's made the jump, since I started the podcast, it was a dream back then, and so good to chat to you, mate.

Raymond Hatfield: Wow. So I am a dream guest. That's a weird thing to hear. You know, you have all these huge guests on your show and such powerful photographers that, you know, when you asked me to come on the show, I did a happy dance right there in the middle of the living room, and my wife just thought that I was crazy. So this has absolutely been fantastic. You know, I just want more people to do what it is that they love, and if hearing what I do to get to that point or hearing what others do to get to that point pushes them over the edge, then I'm happy.

Andrew Hellmich: That is awesome, mate. We, myself and the listener, we are barracking for you, mate and wishing you every success and looking forward to following your journey and via your website and what you're putting out there in your photography as well. So again, thanks so much.

Raymond Hatfield: Thank you so much. Absolutely. I really appreciate everything that you've done for the photography community, Andrew, I really appreciate it.