037: Jean Smith, Sell The Portrait Photography Hi-Res Files? Hell Yeah!

037: Jean Smith, Sell The Portrait Photography Hi-Res Files? Hell Yeah!

Andrew Hellmich: So just before I introduce Jean Smith, I've got a special thanks to Lisa Easter who actually recommended that I get in contact with Jean for the podcast. Here's what Lisa told me, she says, "Jean does an excellent job of telling the story in a creative way. Every week, when she sends her blog and I open my email, hers is the first one I check. It's like Christmas morning. I can't wait to see her images." So once I received that email from Lisa, I did go and check out Jean Smith Photography, and I was not disappointed. I knew as soon as I saw her blog and website, I had to get her on the show. Now, she's an on location portrait photographer based in Michigan, USA. She's a mother to four boys. She's married to Travis, who also has his own separate photography business, and they have a very, very cool looking blog and website. But more importantly, and I think more interesting to us, is the fact that Jean happily sells her digital files. She doesn't do in-person sales, and yet, she has a really successful business. Jean, welcome to the podcast.

Jean Smith: Hi, Andrew. How are you?

Andrew Hellmich: Really well, really well. Thanks for coming on.

Jean Smith: Thank you. It's good to be here.

Andrew Hellmich: Now I actually said "They and you, and talked about you and Travis." So is it your business, or is it a family business?

Jean Smith: Actually, I know this is, it kind of people automatically assume that, because we are both photographers, that we are a husband and wife team, and although we do work together sometimes on weddings, and we actually do work together on commercial projects, but we own completely separate businesses. So he, he does more commercial photography and videography, and I am, and I do more portrait photography. So we have completely separate businesses. So we work together, where we guess, we work alongside each other, but we own completely separate businesses.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Okay, so what happens when the phone rings at your studio, at your, is it your house, or is it an off on-street studio?

Jean Smith: We do both. We have, we have two studios, and we also work out of our house. So it's kind of a mess, a little hodgepodge, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So different numbers for both businesses? Or do you just ring up and it's whoever answers, it's Jean Smith Photography or Travis Smith?

Jean Smith: Totally separate contact information for both businesses. I mean, we are, we are, like, 100% I mean, it's funny, because sometimes people will contact me and be talking about his business, having no idea that we're married. And so, I mean, that's happened more often than not. So, yeah, it's completely separate.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Okay, and I really, really am happy to hear that, because I really want to focus on the portrait side of things. I know that's what, what you're so well known for, and that's what you also teach, don't you?

Jean Smith: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. So do you want to give me and the listener a little bit of an idea of where you started and where you are now business wise?

Jean Smith: Sure. Where I started, just really quickly, in a nutshell, I, I mean, I've always taken, taken photos just as a hobby, and I've always loved photography and fine art, and, you know, any, any kind of artwork, I've just always been really fascinated. I kind of took it a step further. We had the chance to move to China back in 2006 and I got, I guess, what you'd call, a decent camera. And I kind of just, I just, it just became, like a huge obsession, passion, and I just dove right in. Learn everything I could, studied everything I could. And I started my business probably, probably about a year, a year after that. So I started officially when we moved in, moved to Michigan, and that was, gosh, six years ago, I guess. So I've been Jean Smith Photography for about six years now.

Andrew Hellmich: What about the growth of the business? How has that sort of progressed over that six years?

Jean Smith: Okay, well, I mean, I started out very, I want to say, like everybody else but not, just you know, just how, just how you're feeling like you're just, you're self-employed. You feel like you're grasping. You feel like, you know, I'm never going to make this, am I, I mean, this is, I mean, it was a crazy thought to me that I was doing something that I absolutely loved. And that people were going to pay me money for it, and that, you know, in my mind, it wasn't worth it to me unless I was making a certain amount of money. So I just was trying to figure out how I'm going to get from point A to point B, you know. But just again, the whole entire time, mind boggling that people were paying me for this thing that I love to do. So it did, it did start slow, and it took me about six to nine months to really start to pick up. And then about from the nine month to two year mark, I was just insane. I was crazy, and I realized my prices were, were too low, which was awesome because, you know, again, I was still trying to get from point A to point B. So that's when I just kind of made a change, and I raised my prices. I accepted less sessions, but, you know, it's more I just trying to go more over quality rather than quantity. And I just started raising my prices. Kept raising about every six months until I got where I am today.

Andrew Hellmich: I really want to go back and look at that A to B transition. So can you, maybe give us an idea of where you are now? So do you know what your average portrait sale is?

Jean Smith: Sure. Um, I, my goal is to, well, the way, the way I run things is, is I had to decide at some point as far as my portrait side of my business is, is I had to say, "What is the least amount of money that I ever want to come out of a session with?" I'm not saying that's my goal point, but what's the least amount of money that I want to make. And so I kind of reversing the numbers, and, you know, figuring out how many hours I work compared with editing, driving, shooting, whatever it is that goes into it. I decided that $750 was the least I ever wanted to make. Again, not my goal. So the way I set it up is, is I have a $750 deposit to book with me, and that's a 350 session fee and a $400 credit for them to use at time of order. Again, like I said, that was my minimum. I don't, I don't call it a minimum, of course, I always hated the idea of a minimum order, so I said it was just more of a deposit. And so again, what that does for me is it guarantees a certain amount of money right up front, and also weeds out the people who are, I don't know, how do you say that? Not interested, you know, maybe just looking for a quick photographer, not really wanting to hire me for me, or not invested in it, or not my client. You know, my target client market, however you want to call that. So that's my minimum. And then my goal is to be anywhere between 1500 and 3,000 is my goal.

Andrew Hellmich: Are you hitting it regularly now?

Jean Smith: Yeah, I'd say, I'd say my average is, is probably about 23.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. And how many shoots would you, are you aiming to book, or do you book each week?

Jean Smith: Honestly, this is, this is where, this is one of those A to B type things is. I used to be, I've never been like a, you know, I mean I don't know. I know people who own studios and who shoot a lot in studios. I imagine they are cranking out 10, 20, 30, 50. I don't know, I don't know how many they're cranking out. I've never been a studio photographer. I only shoot in my studio out of necessity or out of, you know, for a certain look or for commercial shoots. I just don't shoot in my studio very often, I'm more of an on location photographer. So of course, that takes more time. You have to schedule more time for travel, stuff like that. So I mean, when I was at my crazy busy, when I thought I was just gonna, gonna go crazy, I was probably shooting maybe six or seven times a week. And so now I'm to the point that I don't schedule more than two sessions per week, which, I mean, is awesome, because I'm making the same or more amount of money than I was when I was shooting the seven. And if I have a wedding, which I limit to 15 weddings a year, then I only make sure I'm only shooting one session per week. So, and then, of course, that leaves room for, you know, the random things that come up, commercial things that come up, or, of course, my personal work, which I think is crazy important. Because that was something that went away for, I don't know, three or four years, just because I was too busy, too stressed, you know, everything going on, so.

Andrew Hellmich: I've got 1000 questions that's popped into my head with all of that. Looking at that transition, when you initially set that, well, I guess when you first started, you didn't have that $750 minimum spend. How did you introduce that? And was that a scary thing to do?

Jean Smith: Oh my gosh, yeah, that's actually a great question, because again, I've never believed in a minimum, and I don't fault anybody who does. But just from my own, my own personal point of view, I just felt, it always felt forceful, kind of felt a little cheesy, kind of felt like you have to pay me this much. I don't know, it just felt wrong to me. So I even, even when I didn't, even when I just had a session fee of 250 I mean, it's, I think it started at 150, 200, 250. So even when I was at a session fee of 250 I never had a minimum. And that was the, that was the problem is that, you know, I was still getting like, a little like a lower target market, you know, who would only order $200 or, you know, whatever the amount was. And so it's like I just felt like all those hours had just been sucked away from my life, you know, so, so, "Oh my gosh, original question."

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so when you made that transition to go to that, that minimum?

Jean Smith: So the jump, it was terrifying. My husband has a grad, a graduate degree in business and so he's, he honestly is the one who's behind the scenes always coaching me with everything. I give him credit for everything my business. So he's been telling me forever, "You need to do this. Don't be afraid, you just got, you've got to do it." I mean, just, "You got to make the jump", you know? And so, I mean, literally, overnight, I just jumped and I just changed it to 750. It was terrifying, I lose all my clients. No one's going to contact me. No one's gonna book me. And honestly I, no one has blinked an eye. I mean, it's been, it's been crazy. So I just switched this next year for my session fee, or I'm sorry for my deposit, to be 750 with a 350 session fee, $400 credit. When I started it, it was 250 session fee, $500 credit. So, so what that does for people is, is they're thinking, "Okay, 250 session fee, that's cool. I can totally do that." And then it's almost like, when they're ordering, they have this extra magical $500 because they paid their session fee, who you know two to six months ago. So, so in their mind, if they're willing to invest in me and when they want me as their artist or their photographer, or whatever you want to call it, then that initial money wasn't that huge, huge of a deal. Because, yeah, it's a lot to pay up front, but they knew they were invested, and they knew what they were going to have that money to spend at the time of order. Does that make sense?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, definitely it does. So I'm really interested, because I know that I'm guessing or assuming that your photography didn't really change from when you were 200 to $1,000, your work didn't change. It just, you changed your prices.

Jean Smith: Right. I mean, I mean, granted I feel, I mean, and I hope I'm not the only one who feels this, but I feel like every year, even now, you know, six or seven years later, I still feel like my photography evolves on a yearly basis. You know, I look back at last year, the year before, and I still feel like, I mean, so I feel like I'm becoming a better artist every year. However, you're totally right. I still have the same style, the same reason people come to me now as they did then. So it's just that's the whole point is that I was so busy with, you know, all of these people who are willing to pay that. So why am I busting my hinny? I'm working all of this for a lower price, you know, when, when I could just raise my prices and weed out the people who aren't really interested in investing.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Jean Smith: In me, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: That makes total sense. And look for the listener, in front of a computer or you're listening right now online, you should pause this podcast interview for a second. Jump over and check out jeansmithphotography.com because Jean, your work is simply amazing. It is gorgeous.

Jean Smith: Oh, thank you. Wow, thanks,.

Andrew Hellmich: I really want to talk about your photography in a little bit, but just tell me. So are you the one that's taking the calls when there's a portrait inquiry, when someone rings up to book you?

Jean Smith: Okay, you ready for something else, it's embarrassing? You're gonna, you're gonna tell me that I'm a bad business person because I already know what's coming. I don't actually list my, my phone number anywhere. Just because I feel like that became such a time suck for me. That, I mean things that could be answered on my own time and do the same job in an email than what a phone call was when I was getting phone calls all day, every day. When I am a business owner and I do work a lot of hours and I pride myself in my business, but I am a mom, and that is super, super important to me. So when I'm getting phone calls during dinner and during soccer and during all these times that was, that was really kind of stressful on me. And I started, started, I call it things that suck my joy. And that was something that was really, really stressful for me. And so I just got rid of my phone number completely off of all this content. And honestly, I have, I haven't had a single problem with it. So I do all communication via email. And then, of course, you know, like, when session time comes, I, we, we trade phone numbers. And or if someone says, "Hey, it's really need to talk to you", I'm like, "Great, here's my cell phone number, give me a call." So that has been something business wise that I know it's such a tiny little thing, but that's something that I've changed. But, so anyways, to answer your question, I do all inquiries. My husband, he actually has somebody who does that for him, and again, that's well, he says "Jean, you've got to give that up. You've got to give up. You don't need to be spending time doing that". For me, though, I actually like it. I like answering emails and kind of getting to know people a little bit. It doesn't, doesn't, you know, bug me, too bad. But yes, I do handle all inquiries and everything that comes in.

Andrew Hellmich: This is awesome. I've never interviewed or spoken to a photographer that does not have their phone number listed that just goes against all the rules. I love that.

Jean Smith: I know it does. It goes against all the rules. But I will tell you what, I have never had one person complain about it or comment on other than to say, "Hey, I would just rather talk about this over the phone." I'll be like, "Great. Here's my cell phone number. Give me a call. These are the times I'm available." And they're like, "Great." And we talk, and it's awesome.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're telling me that you're a mother, a wife, a business owner, and you still have a life.

Jean Smith: I'd like to have a life!

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Well, so I guess I'll just reword the question I had coming to into my head, was, when you get an inquiry and an email inquiries, the first thing I'm imagining is, "Jean, how much is your photography? We love it. How much does it cost?" What's your response to that?

Jean Smith: Yeah, I mean, really that that's what it comes down to. I mean, I have a lot of return clients, which is, you know, a huge compliment, and I love it, and it's amazing. So, but for the people that, that either I haven't seen for a while and are coming, because I still continue to raise my prices every six months, so they are going to get a new price if it's been a while, and new inquiries, basically I just handle and say, "Okay, great. I would love to discuss, you know, I'd love to discuss this with you. My session fee is $750 and it includes this, and you can click on my full pricing list here." Again, you know, I do have people who write back and just say, "You know what, I'm sorry, you know, I, we, you know, it's a little out of our budget, blah, blah", and I am, I do not think that I'm too good for anybody. I do not think, you know, I totally understand everybody has a budget, you know. So, so I just very gracious, and I'm like, "You know what? You know, I'm, you know that, that bummer. I'm so, you know, bummed that we won't be able to work together. I hope to maybe work together in the future", you know just so I don't know it's just, it's just either people are like, "Great, let's do it", or, you know, just like, "Oh, you're a little bit out of my budget", you know, and I'll be like, "I'm so sorry. You know, I would have loved to work with you". But I don't know it's just kind of, it's kind of one of those, I used to have a really hard time saying no or feeling bad about that. But it's, it's just, it's, I guess it's just business. I don't expect other people to give me discounts or lower their prices, you know, just because maybe they're not in my budget. Do you know what I mean?

Andrew Hellmich: I do 100% and I think one of the biggest things that I guess photographers looking to put their prices up are scared about is losing clients. So you get that inquiry after you've had the price rise, and all of a sudden you're saying, "I'm sorry, I'm too expensive for you now", and we feel guilty, and we feel like we have to, we have to book everyone that calls. So how did you, you just accepted that? Or was that Travis in your ear?

Jean Smith: Such a great question, because that's something that I battled with, because I develop really good relationships with my clients. I love my clients and I, and I, it's like I really do feel like we're friends. And that was some "They told you before that I have a hard time saying no." Well, I also have a really hard time letting people go, or them feeling like I'm too good for them, which, of course, I'm not, but I don't want anybody to ever feel like that. So I have two ways around this. Number one, I will tell people I don't.. Well, okay, so let me back up. So number one, I offer a return client discount to my, all my return clients. So if they write back and you know, they say, "Hey, well, I would like to book you this year, what's your stuff?" "Here's my session fee. Here's my pricing list." And by the way, "As a return client, you will either receive", and I, you know, depending on the year what's going on. But this is something that a lot of people might not agree with, but I believe in it 100% and it feels it helps me to feel like I'm maintaining a good relationship with my clients. But I offer, I tell them, "Okay, my return client discount. I offer either a $100 credit towards prints products or collections, or a $300 credit towards the digital images." And I know some people are like, "What $300?!, like Jean, how could you do that?" But in my mind, $300, if I'm selling the digital images, which currently, right now, they're $2,000. If I'm selling my digital images for $2,000, $300 out of off of that is not a big deal, and not a big deal all, you know. So, and then the $100 towards the prints, products and collections, which are actually money out of my pocket to print, you know, that's as a smaller deal. So, of course, I want to try to sell the digital images, because it's such a low cost for me. And plus, I shoot in a very lifestyle manner, and so I feel like choosing, you know, three to eight images out of my gallery isn't going to cut it, isn't going to tell the story. My, the whole reason why I photograph the way I do is because it tells a story. So I really try to push the digital images and albums. Or even, like, you know, big collages on people's wall, because that's what my photography is about. I don't have just, like, one, like, most outstanding image, you know that people, you know. I mean, I hope to have an outstanding image in there, but I want to have a whole gallery that people can't say no to, you know what I mean? So anyway, so one is a return client discount, and then number two, for I know that there are a lot of past clients that now, maybe or probably, or whatever, can afford me now. So I'll just say, "Hey, I'm so sorry. You know, that's a bummer to hear. Just as a heads up, I do offer mini sessions once a year. So you know, just stay tuned for that", and I'll, and on that. So what that does is it allows me, again, to give them an option and make them feel like I'm not abandoning them, and everybody's super thrilled about that. And I do, I book, I book mini sessions for usually, I mean, usually my mini sessions are all my old clients, my past clients. So it's, it kind of just makes me feel like I have still this awesome relationship with them. They feel like they have an awesome relationship with me, and it makes everybody happy. So I do, I only do mini sessions once or twice. I'm sorry, once every one or two years. I just don't, I don't do them very often, but I do offer them sometimes.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and what's the mini, is that a half hour shoot? Or what is, what is a mini session?

Jean Smith: A mini session is basically just a very quick session, like a 30 minute session, for like, a reduced price. So, so like, I mean, everybody has, you know, different prices or times or whatever, but I usually do around 400, 450 for 30 minutes, and then five to 10 images, digital images that go along with that. So it's just, you know, take two, one or two days and just stack up, you know, a bunch of sessions back to back and slam it out.

Andrew Hellmich: And do you, do you do that in the quiet time of year for you? Or is it before Christmas? Like, when, when does that work?

Jean Smith: Like I said, unfortunately, I just get so busy with other, you know, other work and stuff that I, for example, I haven't even offered them this year. And I had hoped to try to do it in the fall, but I couldn't. That was, that was wishful thinking on my part, because the fall is so busy, so I'll usually try to do it in the spring. And then, and for example, with my mini sessions, just because, again, I teach at my workshops that mini sessions should not be something, because a lot of people get in the habit of saying, "Okay, Christmas mini sessions", "Fall mini sessions", "Easter mini sessions", "Mother Day mini sessions." And so what ends up happening is all of these people are, are just waiting around for that photographer to offer mini sessions. They're never, ever going to book them at their full price. So I am a huge believer in only offering mini sessions as a very exclusive thing, and also to make them benefit you as well. So for example, with my mini sessions, I am, they're benefiting my clients, but they're also benefiting me. So like my last ones, I did more of like a, it was only kids. It had to be like a themed type or stylized shoot. So each and every, each and every mini session shoot was like a little mini stylized shoot. So the reason why I was doing that is because I was wanting to build up my child commercial portfolio a little bit kind of one of my goals. As soon as my last baby, who's four, is going to be in school next year, or actually the year after, I wanted to start building up a portfolio for that. So, so yeah, there's always a double reason for everything, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Sure thing. Now I really want to get into the sales side of things. But I think for the listener to understand where you're coming from, and you alluded to a little bit before, when you're describing your, your shoots, they really are a collection. It's almost like a, it's almost like a wedding shoot, or a wedding coverage for a portrait session, isn't it?

Jean Smith: Sorry, I'm sorry. Repeat that again.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, like the way, the way that I would describe your, your portrait sessions, they're like, it's not just going out to one location. It feels like actually capturing a story of the family or the child. You know, it's, it's like you're spending, I don't know, it looks like you're spending half a day with these people.

Jean Smith: Yeah, no, and we're definitely not. But that's kind of, that's what, that's how I would want my family to be captured, that's how I think. Like, when I photograph, I think in sort of like a, I don't know how to describe it then, other than like a blog collab. You know, like, imagine, like a, like, on my on a blog, like, how their picture, certain pictures, detailed pictures that go with other pictures. That's how I, that's how I shoot is. That's how I think in my brain when I'm shooting.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so you're, so you're not looking for that one, superstar standout shot. You're shooting for a collection.

Jean Smith: That's natural for me, and that's how I shoot. And, I mean, I'm always trying to get that. I mean, that is that like my clients are just gonna love, or that I'm just gonna love to put on my blog, or, you know, whatever. Of course, I'm always going for that, but it's very natural for me to tell more of a story, rather than to spend 20 minutes on this one pose that's just going to be amazing. Do you know what I mean?

Andrew Hellmich: I do, I do. Okay, so how does the sales session work for you? Is it in person?

Jean Smith: Okay. So, yeah, this is, this is where we get into a complete divergence. Like, for example, my, my husband, again, one of those things he's always talking to me about "Jean, Jean, you've got to do this, you've got to do this", because it's what he does after the shoot. And after we go home, and I cull through my images, this is one thing, and this is a whole separate subject. But things that I did to save my life, to bring back my sanity, and one of them was outsourcing. So basically, I took all the things in my business that either I hated doing or was just taking too much time, and I just completely outsource them. Which is why I actually do have a life again, is because of my outsourcing. But at that point, after I cull through all my images and select my, I will edit personally the ones for my Facebook or my blog, and then I ship all the rest off to be edited. So after that happens, and I get them back, I put them in a slideshow and an online gallery for my clients. So I do 100% of my, of my sales in with through online galleries. And again, that's where I'm saying, my husband is constantly talking to me about "Jean, you've got to do in person sales". Because he does, and he started doing it, probably, I gosh, I don't know, a year ago or so. And he's just seen an, a huge increase in his sales. And he's not even a salesman. He's a business, I mean, he's a finance guy, he's a numbers guy, he's not a, he's not a salesman, nor does he want to be. But it's just, and I fully understand that, and I just, and I, I know the potential for in home sales, or in person sales, whatever you want to call it. But for me, in my life and my business, I have to do what's making me happy, and to do that would, would suck my joy. I just I couldn't go to, go to that number one, because I hate the business side of things. I hate the sales and I'm, and I'm happy the way that I'm doing it right now. Well, I maybe hire somebody to do that in the future, probably, and I'm actually on the pathway to do that right now. It's just a matter of actually giving it up and letting it happen so, but that's how I currently do it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so who, who's doing your outsourcing? Is that, is that someone in Asia, or is it someone in the States?

Jean Smith: Okay, so my outsourcing, the things I outsource are number one, my editing. And I actually just have a fantastic girl. She just does it from her home, 100% sure, I think she was a photographer and, or, I'm not sure, 100% of her background. I just know that she's awesome at post-processing. So I use her, and I also use a company called Fotofafa for my wedding, for like, my big, huge bulk, you know, like, when I'm sending in like, 700 or 800 images, they do all my, my bulk editing.

Andrew Hellmich: What are they called Jean, Photo?

Jean Smith: Fotofafa, F-O-T-O- F- A- F- A. Kind of crazy, they're really awesome. And then I get rid of my album design. I just can't do that. I like I said, one of my..

Andrew Hellmich: Is this portraits or for weddings?

Jean Smith: Both.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, so you do, you do albums for your portrait clients?

Jean Smith: Oh, yeah, definitely. So I, for me, the things that I want to sell the most of, I mean, I don't even want to really personally, I don't like dealing with small prints and, you know, stuff like that. My goal is to sell the digital images and albums. Those are my two biggest and, of course, I love, you know, bigger, bigger things like big canvases and standouts and stuff like that. But albums are albums, and digital images are my main, my main goal. So I sell a lot, I mean albums for weddings are almost, you know, 90%. And then for wedding or for portrait clients, it's, you know, I sell probably, maybe about 75% albums to my clients. So I outsource all of my, my album design, to a company called Align Album Design, and they take all the information, they let me approve it first, and then they, once I approve it, then they and the client makes all the changes to that company. So it's really awesome on my part that I just have to wait until I get the final files to order it.

Andrew Hellmich: Just let me, so let me understand this. So you, you do the shoot, then you bring everything back in, you edit, get rid of any duds, then you send that, the files to be retouched, to, to the girl, the local girl. Then with those files, they'll go up to Align Album Designs, they'll design an album, and then that comes back to you, and you upload that to a gallery for the client. Is that how it works?

Jean Smith: Well, okay, so the album is a whole separate thing, you know? I mean, because they've, I mean, that's like, they've been, that's like a separate company I'm working with too to do it. But yes, like, once I get the images back, either from Fotofafa, or from my, from my girl, my editing girl, then that's when I upload them into a slideshow and an online gallery, yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so if the client wants to, they can either order from that online gallery. If they want an album, do they actually pre-purchase the album, or do they do design an album first? How does that work?

Jean Smith: Oh, okay, no, I see what you're saying. Okay, so, so, yeah, so the album, the album doesn't come until after they've received their gallery of images. So from their gallery of images, it's a built in shopping cart. And then they can, they can order, of course, whatever they want in there. But I, how do you say it? My pricing heavily lends to albums and to digital images. Does that make sense?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. You encourage him to go that way.

Jean Smith: I offer incentives. For example, if they spend over, I can't remember what it is, I think if they spend over $1200 and they get the digital images for 50% off, which is a crazy amount of money for them, but that's an extra $1,000 for me.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Jean Smith: So, so that, so I off, I, my pricing, you know, kind of, kind of lean to albums and digital images. Of course, I offer all that other stuff, but yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, got it. So once, if they choose album in the shopping cart, then you'll go away and design an album, or you're..

Jean Smith: Right, right.

Andrew Hellmich: Align Album Design people. Okay, got it.

Jean Smith: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So let me just, let me just quickly change gears, quickly with your.. it's going to sound strange when you go back, back quickly to mini sessions. How do you get in contact with those clients to let them know you're having mini sessions?

Jean Smith: Okay. Well, honestly, um, I mean, I mean, I definitely do every time, okay. So, so, going back to, like, the very beginning, I go through, I use a client. What do you call it, a studio management system, client manage? I use a company called ShootQ. Whenever anybody writes in, I mean, I just use a normal Gmail account, and when everybody writes in, that information is automatically imported into ShootQ. So I already have every, all my clients information into ShootQ and I'm, you know, you can take it as heavy or as light as you want, as far as how much notes you're taking or adding reminders, you know, all this kind of stuff. But anyway, so when it comes time for a mini session, really like a newsletter through that. But honestly, social media is much, much better word than anything. Social media is definitely my best form of announcing or resources or anything like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, love it. Now, before we go down that road, and I don't want to go down there with you, tell me about the digital files. Now most photographers, or a lot of photographers, are preaching that the fact that portrait photographers, particularly, should not be giving away digital files. And here you are, you actually, you structure your price list to make it to incentivize people to buy them.

Jean Smith: Yes, I know, I absolutely know that. And I've had this discussion with so many people about. I mean, it's almost like the discussion of Nikon versus Canon. Digital files, you know, versus selling out or however they want to, however they want to call it, you know. And I totally and I do understand it. I do understand their reasoning for it. Never felt that way. It's not like I was one way and then I just decided to go this way. It's like I've always felt, I just don't have a problem with selling my digital images to people. And I think, I think, and I don't want to put words in their mouth, but I think maybe one of their biggest issues is just they're feeling like people are going to manipulate their artwork, and I get that. Or people are going to print their artwork at a, you know, a crappy lab, or something like that. And I'm sure there are a lot of different factors that go into it. But I mean, for me, I just feel like, again, I don't want people just to have three images from my, from the way that I shoot and the way that I, but my pictures have to, you know, all come together. I don't want them just to beg photos and get those printed, I almost feel like, "What about all the rest of them?" Like they're missing out on all the rest of them. And so what I do is I just heavily educate, educate my clients on where to print. And again, I am a very easy going, relaxed person. I am not, you know, a crazy person about "You cannot, copyright data." You know, I'm not like that. But I heavily educate them on, you know, where to print, be print, and just as far as you know, as far as the copyright, basically, "Please do not alter, manipulate or sell my images", you know. So, yeah, I know, I do know that that's a big debate, and I totally understand where they're coming from, you know. And I've just, I've just never really shared that view. I, and it's not, it's not just a "Hey, I want to make lots of money type thing." It's not that at all. I just truly believe, like when I, family pictures taken, I want those digital images. I want, I want them, I want to have them forever and ever and ever.

Andrew Hellmich: I love your point of view, and I love the way that you talk about it, and I love the way you feel about it. And I think it's going to totally blow a lot of listeners minds, because up until now, just about every interviewer, our interviewee, has preached the opposite, so their heads will be spinning.

Jean Smith: I know I believe it. I know I believe it. And I like I said, I've talked to people about it. A lot of people think I'm crazy, but I, but I also know a lot of people that believe the same way as I do. I like I said, "It's just Nikon versus Canon", right?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, let me just change gears again. Online gallery, who do you use for that? And are they any good?

Jean Smith: I actually use a company called Pick Pic.

Andrew Hellmich: Pick Pic.

Jean Smith: Yeah, it's P- I- C-P- I-C- K, or maybe it's P-I-C-K- P-I-C.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll find it. That's fine. I'll put a link to it in the show notes.

Jean Smith: But I, I do love them. I'II, I've been with them for a couple years now, and I really, really like them. I love the built-in shopping cart, and it's, I mean, it's unlimited. I probably have a bajillion and five photos uploaded to there, and they never expire. A lot of companies you have to pay for how much you are uploading to, and it's just a really clean, clean interface. And I've gone through, you know, quite a few of them, and I'm really happy with them, so..

Andrew Hellmich: Beautiful. Okay, social media, does it work for you?

Jean Smith: Yes, I feel like, I feel, I mean, case in point, I have, I just went to a little photographer lunch with some friends last week. And my friend, you know, she just recently is out on her own. She has her own apartment, you know, she basically said, "You never just depending on my September and October for it to, that's my main money maker. That's where I make all my money for the, to get me through the winter." I mean, that's, you know, photographers, well, at least here. I don't know how it is over in Australia. I guess it's always beautiful there, right? But here, I mean, we've got, we've got some crappy months from December through March, you know. So that's how a lot of photographers are, myself and my husband included. We, we work like crazy so that we can kind of just chill through those couple, you know. But anyways, she, she was talking, she's like, "But I don't know the business is just, I don't have anything. I mean, I have a couple things planned here and there, but I have nothing, like, I'm freaking out", you know, and I didn't really know what to tell her in the moment. And I, I went home, and she's like, "I am paying a fortune for Google Ads, and I'm doing, you know." She's like, "Every time I type in my name, or Michigan photographer, I'm coming up one of the first on the list. I don't know what's going on." And so I went home, and just as I like, "Oh, that poor girl, let's figure this out." And so I went home and looked on her Facebook page, and oh, she, she has her personal Facebook page and but she didn't have a business page. So I'm like, "Okay, all right, well, let's go try Twitter, nothing. Instagram, nothing." So I was just like, "Are you kidding me?" And so I called her, and I just said, "Listen", I go. "I know there's a lot of different ways to do this and to market, but quick and fast you need to get your social media go". I honestly feel like because, really I, and I don't, and I'm not saying this to say, "Oh, look at me." Because I think a lot of photographers are in the same position as me. I don't spend a dime on my advertising. I don't have to, because social media does it all for me. And so I mean, like when I barely, when I was barely getting going, I remember I was that girl spending a ton on Google ads. And I'm not saying that that's a bad way to go, especially if you can really do it right and get, you know, SEO and all that kind of stuff going. But social media, for me, has been the number one way for word of mouth, for referrals, for anything. I mean, I, I, like I have, I have a thing on my, like a form that people fill out, and I ask, "How did you find out about me?" or say "I saw it on someone's Facebook page. “I saw it on someone's Instagram." You know, so, so, yeah, social media is a 100% part of my business.

Jean Smith: So what are your two best social media outlets for booking work?

Jean Smith: Facebook is still number one, and then Instagram. And I don't heavily use Instagram for my business yet. However, the word on the street is that being, to Instagram and I mean, just for example, I was photographing, and this has been, I've had several people say this to me, you know, with different people. But I was photographing a high school senior, you know, a couple months ago, and I just said, "Okay, so what, you know, do you have a Facebook account, you know? So I can", you know, I always get permission to tag and to do all that stuff." She's like, "Oh, I don't have a Facebook account anymore." I'm like, "Oh, you know your parents, yeah." She's like, "Oh, no, I just took it off myself." I'm like, "Why?" She's like, "Oh, Facebook is only for old people now." That's how I was like, "Wow, okay." And I'm like, "Are you serious?" She's like, "Oh yeah, all my friends have canceled their Facebook accounts." And I'm like, "Well, where is everybody now?" And I said, and she says, "Instagram." So I mean, I know that it's, that things are going to keep shifting always. I mean, there's always going to be a new something, but I do, Facebook is still number one for me, because that's still, you know, I'm still marketing the moms, kids and stuff. You know, that's still my number one. But Instagram is sure up and coming. And I just say to anybody, don't underestimate Instagram for building your business.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll just dive a little bit deeper quickly into Facebook before we get into these 10 quick questions, because that's what you're using now, and that's using now, and that's definitely working. How do you, if you've got a Facebook page and you're photographing a client, you really can't tag from a, from a business page. So what are you doing there to let them know that the images or images on Facebook?

Jean Smith: Right, right. I usually do, I always, either before or during the session. I'll just say, "Hey, are we friends on Facebook yet?" You know, so I'll usually make sure, and they'll be like, "No", and usually by the time I get home, they've already friended me. So I always make that just a part of like, our final parting words is that we're friends on Facebook, so I can then tag them, and if for some reason, for some reason that we don't, which happens, then I literally just email them and give them the link and say, "Hey, just posted a photo from your shoot" or whatever. And I, and even though I don't believe in blogging or Facebooking everything, I believe only in blogging Facebooking what you want people to see. You know, as far as the kind of artists you are, I think everybody feels like you have to blog every single shoot they do, every single, I don't really believe that. But I do at least get some kind of sneak peek, a photo up on Facebook or photo on Instagram, something to, so, you know, because they're super excited and they want to see something, you know. So I do try to get at least something up for them, and then, of course, they go and share it on their page or whatever.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so for a client sheet, where you only put one of their photos, or a bunch of their photos onto your business page. You won't put them onto your personal profile.

Jean Smith: I post probably in one year's time, there's probably 1% of the content on my personal page is photography. And again, I know people are kind of like, you know, "What?!" Like, they all intermixing. You should be doing that. And I think, you know what I don't mix my personal life and my business, I really don't. I'm just one of those people. And if I feel like there's ever a time when business is slowing down or I'm struggling, then I'll start putting it out there as well. But I haven't felt a need to do that. And I'm just more of a, I'm a very social person in real life, but when it comes to my family and like me and stuff, I don't like mixing the two of them, so I keep everything just on my, on my business page.

Andrew Hellmich:
All right, are you ready for these 10 quick questions?

Jean Smith: Yeah, let's do it.

Andrew Hellmich: 10 quick questions, 10 quick answers, 3-2-1, go! Canon or Nikon?

Jean Smith: Nikon.

Andrew Hellmich: Favorite lens, and why?

Jean Smith: Oh, don't ask me that. 24 to 70 2.8, I've loved it. From gaining a lot of people don't get it because they're prime lens users, but I'll tell you what, I am a wide angle shooter. You'll see it from the, any moment you'll look at my stuff. And I, the 24 and I just like having the range I can go from 24, I shoot it either 24 or 70.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Do you shoot JPEG or RAW?

Jean Smith: RAW

Andrew Hellmich: Have you faced any setbacks in the, in the years that you've been in business?

Jean Smith: Oh my gosh, where's some wood, I need to knock on it. I feel like I've been very blessed, and I haven't faced, I haven't faced any, any large setbacks. But I'm sure everybody has trials, and I'm sure it's coming my way, just not yet.

Andrew Hellmich: That's great, lovely to hear. What's one thing you can look back on in your journey so far and think, "Yeah, you know that's when the business took a good step forward. That's when we became more profitable, or I started getting having more time to myself and my family." Like, what was something that you did to get that feeling?

Jean Smith: Honestly, and I already touched on this. I tell people all the time that my breaking point, I remember sitting in front of my computer one night, I don't cry. I'm not an emotional person. I just handle things. I'm a fighter. But there was one night I remember, I just broke down in front of my computer, and I was bawling. I need to either quit photography or I need to change. And, and I at that point, I thought I hated photography and it was all photography's fault. But I realized it was just, I had allowed myself within my photography business to be getting three or four hours of sleep at night, to not have enough time for my kids, to not feel like I'm making as much money as I want to. So that was my make or break point. And honestly, that's when I went to outsourcing. And I, and I just went crazy without, I got rid of all things in my business that were sucking all of that out.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. So what do you actually outsource? You outsource your editing. Oh, sorry, not the editing, but the post processing and your album designing and the sales.

Jean Smith: Yeah, packaging and shipping, all of that. I will be doing sales in the near future. Some people don't consider this outsourcing, but I do have somebody who comes in cleans my house for me. Comes, you know, once or twice a week, just because so I can crank stuff out, get it done, and then I can be a good mom on my off days, you know. So some people might not consider that outsourcing, but for me, it was, it was kind of a turning point.

Andrew Hellmich: Love it. If you, if you had to move to Australia tomorrow, and you didn't have, you didn't have..

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: You don't your existing website, you had to start over, what would you do first to get things rolling, get some income?

Jean Smith: That is an amazing question, because, you know what? We are actually going on, we're going to go travel the world as a family starting next July. So I'm facing that next July. What would I do? Honestly, I think right off the bat, I would just depend on social media. I would just, I would crank out the social media, and I would depend on, you know, getting it. And I'd probably have to do, gosh, man, that is a big question.

Andrew Hellmich: Facebook, Facebook would be the savior.

Jean Smith: I think I would have to depend on social media to at least get it going for me.

Andrew Hellmich: So, what software do you use when you get back from a shoot to, you know, to edit, rename, renumber?

Jean Smith: Lightroom 5, amazing. I couldn't live without it.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you watch what other photographers are doing with their work?

Jean Smith: I used to a lot. I definitely used to a lot. And I think just as things got busier, I got more confident, I got very happy. And, you know, in my own and what I'm doing, I think it just, I do have photographers that I really, really think are awesome, and I love to look at there's, it's few and far between when I have a chance to check it out.

Andrew Hellmich: So you just 100% confident now, and you just do what you doing.

Jean Smith: Oh, geez, I don't know about 100% confident. Everybody has their thing, like, "I don't, don't go around telling everybody that." No, "I'm saying I feel confident in my, you know, in what I can provide to my clients." And I mean, there's always things that I want to improve upon, and things that I'm like, "Man, I wish I could do this or, man, I wish I could see the way that person does." you know.

Andrew Hellmich: I was saying that as a compliment.

Jean Smith: Was that?

Andrew Hellmich: I was saying it as a compliment. I think that's fantastic. I love it.

Jean Smith: Well done. Well, I had to correct you. That's not, that's not 100% true.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, cool. Do you, what do you wear when you shoot? Do you have a uniform or..

Jean Smith: No, when I shoot, I mean, at weddings, it's obviously a lot different. It's a lot more formal.

Andrew Hellmich: Portraits, chasing the kids around.

Jean Smith: Oh, chasing kids around. I am either in a long skirt or, like, black leggings and a long shirt, because no one wants to see my butt crack when I'm bending over.

Andrew Hellmich: Love it.

Jean Smith: True story.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, to finish off, have you gotten probably leads perfectly into the last question. Have you got an embarrassing story that you're happy to share?

Jean Smith: Oh, Andrew, my life is kind of an embarrassing moment, because I'm just that girl that when you go to a party, there's always going to be, like, embarrassing Jean moments to laugh about. But I, I don't, I don't have, like, a huge one that I'm like, "Yes, this awesome story", which I'm actually really surprised about, yeah, and where's that wood to knock on. Because I'm sure it's coming but, but, I mean, I mean there, there's always something. My, my husband was laughing the other day, excited to tell him how. And I just, you know, me backing up being awesome, and saying, "Okay, oh, that's awesome, no, no", and of course, I trip and I knock my light stand over my Pocket Wizard, and my flash goes flying in the river. So I'm hiking up my skirt around my waist, and like diving into the river to save my, I'm sure my client said I was crazy. Or, another good one just recently at a wedding, I am, I had been joking with the bridal party all day. They were totally cool. They were awesome and or just whatever. And there's a point on the dance floor when they're like, beckoning either, "Hey, come dance. Get over here. Come on". So I'm like, "Oh yeah." So I go in there, like, doing my moves, and I start dancing, only to realize that they were beckoning to people behind me and looking at me like, I, they, I mean, it's like a little bit of, like a sympathetic like, "Oh, that's so cute, our photographer."

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. I love that one. Jane, you've been absolutely fantastic. You've shared, you know, a real ton, and people are going to absolutely love what you've shared today. How can they check out your work?

Jean Smith: Oh, goodness, I'm everywhere. I am, I'm at jeansmithphotography.com; jeansmithphotography.com/blog. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter. I, and our partner, Brittany, we actually own a photography magazine called Mozi Magazine. Where else? I work with a couple different organizations like Chic Critique Forum, and I Heart Faces, and I don't know.

Andrew Hellmich: Everywhere.

Jean Smith: I'm kind of everywhere.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm gonna put links to all of those things that you just mentioned in the show notes that people can jump over and follow you, stalk you, you know, chase you around the net.

Jean Smith: Awesome.

Andrew Hellmich: Jane, thanks so much. It's been a real pleasure for me.

Jean Smith: Yeah, you too. It's been so fun. Thanks, Andrew.

 
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