009: Dave Jackson – how and why to start a podcast for your wedding or portrait photography business

009: Dave Jackson – how and why to start a podcast for your wedding or portrait photography business

Andrew Hellmich: All right, I'm really happy to be speaking to my guest today, Dave Jackson, from the School of Podcasting, which is the original podcast about podcasting. Now, I'm really happy and excited, because Dave was one of the guys that inspired me to actually get started with my own podcast, and more than that, he actually helped me along the way. Now there's a bunch of guys out there that can also help you to do your own podcast. But the thing is, with Dave, is more about helping than anything else. And I never ever get the feeling when I contact him that he's just trying to make a deal. It's all about helping. And it's been obvious, right from the start, when I started listening to Dave on his show, that he gets a lot of his enjoyment in everyone else's success, and that seems to be the one thing that excites him more than anything else. Dave, it is awesome to have you on my show.

Dave Jackson: Andrew, thank you so much for being here from across the pond. Man, this is awesome. I'm so happy to be here.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, that's awesome. That is really good. You've got to excuse my, hopefully I'm going to sound wide awake. I've totally buggered this up being early into my podcasting career. It's midnight here, but I think you should be wide awake. Is around 10am is that right?

Dave Jackson: It's around 10am on a Saturday, which means I rolled out of bed about an hour ago. So I told Andrea said, "I haven't really talked to anybody but my dog yet this morning." So I have the cool morning voice going on, so I normally don't sound this cool.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, Dave, do you want to tell my listeners a little bit about you, what you do, and yeah, a little bit about your podcasting.

Dave Jackson: Sure. My obviously, my name is Dave Jackson. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, and I've been teaching technology for many, many moons, over 20 years. I, my day job actually is a technical trainer. Like yesterday, I was teaching Microsoft Excel to a bunch of insurance people. So I always love what I just say turning on the light bulb for people, and they walk into a classroom and they're not sure what to do, and they walk out excited, ready to take technology and enhance their life with it. So when podcasting came along in 2005 a friend of mine said, you know, "Hey, I just came from this internet marketing thing", and I had completely missed the boat on MySpace, which tells you how long ago this was. And he was kind of rubbing me about it. And he said, "But I got this new thing." I'm like, "What is it?" And he said, "Podcasting." And I'm like, "What is podcasting? I never heard of it", and I Googled it. It's kind of weird to think of but at that time, there was just nothing, just zero on podcasting. And he said, I'm telling you, it's going to be huge. Finally pieces parted one together and actually uploaded up an audio file and heard myself come down, and I just went, "Oh, this is going to be cool. Okay, great." So at the time I was going back to school, it was kind of funny, because I'd been a trainer for years, but my original degree was in electronic engineering, and I was, the bad news about being in the training department is, anytime Sales doesn't meet their quota, you're the first person that gets whacked, because we wouldn't want to work smarter. Now, that wouldn't make any sense. So I was in between jobs, and everybody said, "Well, that's funny. You don't have a degree in education." So I actually went back to school, which meant I had to find a job that was going to allow me to have kind of flexible hours. And hence, podcasting came along, and I went, "Hmm, maybe I could be a podcast consultant. Because this, this looks like it's going to be huge." And the School of Podcasting was born, and 351 episodes later, I'm still here and still helping people. And it's kind of been fun to watch podcasting go from what is it to now, it seems like everybody's got a podcast, so that's what I've been doing. And like you said, I, yeah, it helps me, you know, feed my family and pay the bills, and in this case, it helps me pay off my student loans now, but yeah, I do get a lot of joy from helping people, you know, they find like-minded people. In some cases, they're kind of building their own community, or they're building their business, or they're being seen as an expert, or they're helping to sell products. You know, there's all sorts of different benefits of podcasting. So anytime I see somebody, especially, I love the person that goes, "I'm not sure if it's for me", and then six months down the road, they're like, "This is the best thing ever." That's always fun to see.

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. Let me ask you, before we get into all the hows, whys and whats and wherefores, did you sound like you do now when you first started?

Dave Jackson: Not really. The only thing in my background that I had that maybe somebody doesn't is I am a musician, so I ran the sound system at my church, so I kind of knew microphones and things of that nature, but that's really, I always tell people, when you get in the car, people go, "I don't know a thing about mixing sound." And I go, "Yeah, you do. Because when you get in the car, you turn on the radio and you turn it up to a volume that's loud enough to be heard over the engine, but not too loud to where you're making yourself deaf." I go, "There you go. That's audio mixing. You do it every day, so it's no big deal." But yeah, so no, not in fact, when I listened to my very first podcast, which, what I took, I had a newsletter for musicians, and I just took that same content and turn it into a podcast, and when I listened to my absolutely very first podcast, I just cringe, because it's like it's at a, yeah, it wasn't recorded a very good quality. I was in the basement next to the water heater, you know, just was not ideal. But I got it out there, you know. And I actually started it off with, for whatever reason, I had some sort of weird rap music in the background, and I don't even like rap music, and I listened to it, "Okay, what was I thinking?" And I literally just was kind of just, on one hand, you just talk to people. You know, it's just, I always tell people, it's a time-shifted conversation. But I don't know if I just rolled out of bed that day two or what was like. "All right, welcome to the Musicians Cooler. I'm Dave Jackson." He was just really low key, and I was like, no energy at all. And not that you have to be, you know, "Wacky morning DJ guy." But I just, you know, that's like, and I always tell people, no matter what you do, you know, the first time you go to tie your shoes, you weren't very good at either, and the first time you go to shoot a basketball, you weren't very good at it. And, you know, 10 times later, you got it down. So it's like everybody else. In fact, my very first podcast for the School of Podcasting is called "Your first podcast episode stinks", because it does. You know, you can, you can do what you can to make it as perfect as you want, but 10 episodes later, you're gonna have learned something that probably you go, "Oh yeah, you know what? I wish I would have done that sooner", unless what some people are doing now is they'll record 10 episodes and not release them.

Andrew Hellmich: Really, really?

Dave Jackson: I don't know about 10, but maybe a few, and then they'll, they'll work out the kinks, and then they'll go back and rerecord them and but I, you can always rerecord I, I put out an episode, I do a podcast called "Weekly Web Tools". And I was listening to an episode I did a couple weeks ago, and I just went, "Ooh, you should have, should have probably fixed that." But I'm like, "You know what, it's, it's fine." It's, you can really waste a lot of time. I always tell people, "You know, if you shoot it perfect and you miss, you probably landed on really good." And sometimes we get a little too obsessive with audio sound and, oh, the fact that I said 'um' or, 'you know', and there is a point where that becomes obnoxious, but the occasional um and, you know, just makes you sound, oh, it's a novel idea. You sound human.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure

Dave Jackson: And that's really one of the things that I think drew people to podcasting in the early days, is the fact that we didn't sound like a morning DJ. What's going on with the sound effects? It's like, "Wow, this person sounds kind of normal." And so, yeah, so that's kind of my background. I had a little bit of, you know, music kind of background, so I knew microphones a little bit, but, but even with that, I still was learning the whole RSS thing and websites. I did have that as well. I'm kind of a geek, again, my day job is teaching people software, so I already knew how to make a website. But even with that, I was doing it the hard way. When I first started out, I was actually, I had a website, and then I had an RSS feed, and it wasn't till about six months in that somebody said, "Have you ever heard of this thing called WordPress?" And that made my whole life a lot easier then, so.

Andrew Hellmich: So if someone meets you, if I was to meet you, and I didn't know it was you, would I? Would I recognize your voice? Or is it computers and hardware and software making you sound like you've got that deep radio voice?

Dave Jackson: That's pretty much my voice.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay

Dave Jackson: But you don't have to have that, because that's something else. Going back as a teenager, I worked in a grocery store, and I would occasionally have to get on the PA system to say, you know, whatever," I need a price check on blah blah blah." And somebody be like, "Man, you should be a DJ." But on the other hand, you don't need the deep voice thing. And like I said, right now, I normally don't sound this, this deep and DJ, because I just woke up. Basically, I haven't really spoken. I guess I should, would be a better way of saying that.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Dave Jackson: But there's a guy I met in Los Angeles. His name is Dr Dave, and he does shrink wrap radio. Now, Dr Dave has kind of this voice. It's kind of horrid, and it just it's very distinctive. And the cool thing about it is, when you hear Dr Dave, you know, instantly It's Dr Dave. So he doesn't sound like, you know, the rainy the morning DJ guy, but on the other hand, he sounds completely unique. It's not annoying. It's just, you know, it's Dr Dave's and so it's easily identifiable. I was speaking with someone last week who is from New Jersey, and it's instantly recognizable that she is from New Jersey, and she's a blogger, and she was saying that her friends were saying, Because of your voice, you're so easily identifiable. And she is, she has kind of a jersey accent, but she it's, it's a very it's hard to explain. And that's why I said, "That's the beauty of your voice. It's hard to explain." I said. "So when people hear you, they're going to know instantly it's you."

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. So if any of my photographer listeners are thinking about doing something like this, they don't need to have some sort of speaking background, they don't need to have a special voice or lots of equipment. They can, we'll get into all that later, but they can just be themselves. That's if that's what you're saying?

Dave Jackson: Absolutely. And the other thing to keep in mind, and this is true, and I mean, for everyone, you will hate your voice. I was laughing. I finally talked my wife into doing a podcast with me, and the biggest hurdle in there was she heard her voice, and she's like, "Oh, I sound horrible." And I'm like, "Honey, don't worry. Everybody hates their voice." And so it took me months to really get her kind of comfortable behind a microphone. And then the other day, we pulled my stepson in, and he wasn't really crazy about the idea, but I'm like, "No, I need a young person's point of view." So I pulled him in, stuck him in front of microphone, gave him a pair of headphones. He started talking. He's like, "Oh man, I hate this." And so I looked at my wife, I go, see everybody hates the sound of your voice, and there's actually a physical element to that. When you actually listen to yourself, I guess from understand, there are things with your jaw, that there's actually vibrations going to your ear, and you basically your head is resonating, and that adds to how you sound to you. And the problem is, when you hear yourself through speakers, there's none of that going on. You're just using your ear, and so you are going to sound a little different, not a huge amount different, but you are going to sound different. So that's why everybody, and I mean everybody, when they hear their voice for the first time, says, "Really, that's how I, that's how I sound?" Yeah!

Andrew Hellmich: I can totally relate to that one, definitely. Yeah. So what about for the photographers that are listening? You know, what's the reason that someone would start a podcast? Because let's, let's put it in the perspective of my listeners. And they could be a portrait photographer in a suburb of an American city. They could be in a small country town in Australia. They could be in a village in the UK. Like, why should they start a podcast? How's it going to help them?

Dave Jackson: Well, number one, it's, as you have more episodes out there, it becomes your business card. And so I have people that call up, and I don't have to explain what a podcast is. I don't have to explain a lot of the things I used to have to explain, because they found me. They went back and listened to my podcast. And the beautiful part of it is they call me because they go, "Wow, this guy really knows what he's talking about", and I'm instantly seen as an expert. And that's the other thing I always like to point out to people. They think that they have to be this massive guru. And as a teacher, as a trainer, I can tell you, you don't have to be this massive guru. You just have to know more than your students. And so in this case, you may say, "Well, you know, I'm not really. I've been, you know, a photographer for, I don't know, five years. And yeah, I'm pretty good at it. I've got some great shots, but I'm nowhere near *insert*", who's the uber photography guru guy? Andrew!

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, why not?

Dave Jackson: Not as much as Andrew, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Why not?!

Dave Jackson: And, but here's the thing, you know, you know so much more than me. I mean, I take pictures with my iPhone, but that's it, you know, I just, I'm looking into getting a DSL camera and in that whole nine years, because it looks a lot of fun, and I kind of dabble in photography, but I'm nowhere near anything like your audience. So that would be the one thing I would think about. And then it's really, sales always boils down to, there's, the old thing about, you know, people buy from their friends, and that's kind of true. There are a couple things there that are always true that you hear, you know, 'the money's in the list', and, you know, 'people buy from their friends', things like that. So podcasting is a time shifted conversation, and people get to know you through your podcast. They get to see that you know what you're talking about. And then, with a photography podcast, you know, you could answer all the frequently asked questions. If you're a wedding photographer, you could answer all those questions about, you know, whatever they people ask that you hear every time you meet somebody, they go, "Oh, well, you know, do you do this? And do you do that?" And you could explain, "Not only do I do that, but here's how I do it, and here's how this is the best way to do it that I found, and here's how it's going to save you time and money", anytime you can throw those in there, because who doesn't want to save time and money? You know? Now, you're seen not only as a fine person that seems to know what they're talking about. Now you're helpful, and if you can come up with a schedule, and it doesn't really matter what the schedule is, if it's once a month, once a week, every other week, it doesn't really matter what it is. Just pick a schedule and stick with it. Because now you're a an expert who is really helpful and appears to be reliable, because every two weeks I hear your voice coming out of my speakers. So through that, you then develop this relationship with your potential customers, who are then emailing you and saying, "Hey, I had a question about such and such. Do you think such and such?" And you can then answer that question via email and get that conversation going behind the scenes. And "You know, if you need help with this, I could always do such and such." And it just is a nice way to get the door cracked and get a conversation going with your either potential customers, or in some cases, you know, you're seen as an expert. You might be asked to speak someplace or to you know, you'll find out that the people that enjoy that topic then kind of gather around your podcast. So all of a sudden all the news around your industry will start to get funneled through you, because somebody will go, "Oh, are you going to the such and such convention?" And you're like, "The what?" And they're like, "Oh, yeah, it's this big photography thing. It's over, you know, such and such", and, "Wow, I didn't know about that." And so all of a sudden, you kind of move yourself into a position where all the industry news is just coming through you or by you, so you then can report that on your podcast. And then people like, "Oh, I didn't know that. Wow, that was really helpful.", and it just starts to snowball.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're saying, really, you could take two directions then with these, you know, with your content, you could either place yourself as an expert photographer and have a photography podcast for photographers, or you could produce content for potential clients. Is that what you're saying? Or would you have to do one or the other? Or you can do both?

Dave Jackson: You can do both, depending on the scenario. That's one of the great things about it is you can always start. Let's just say you started going left. "I'm going to do a podcast, and I'm going to go left", and you go left for, I don't know, three months, and it just doesn't seem to be, you know, what you expected. And you kind of have this twinge in the back of your head that "You know, maybe I should go right." It's, it's your podcast. You can do whatever you want. I just interviewed Nick Seuberling. He does another podcast about podcasting. And he started off, he said "I was going to make a podcast so people like my mom could understand podcasting." And he said "I did that for about three weeks and went and that's not going to work", because now he's interviewing. It's kind of an interview show for people who podcast. And he likes that, and it's, it's a fun way to, it just scratches his itch for whatever, and it positions himself as a podcast consultant. And I would, he said, "So I started off in one direction", and he said, "I tried it, and just after a while", went "Really not my thing." So he switched. So, yeah, you could, you know, if you want to answer questions about, you know, Photoshop or things like that. There are plenty of Photoshop podcasts out there, but I always tell people, they don't have your background and they don't have your experience. And just because, I mean, here in the States, every night, we have four main networks that cover the exact same news stories, and I always tell people, If people you know, have different tastes and likes and things like that. And I said, I'm not sure why we have four, but at any rate, we do, and just because, you know, there's another podcast about Photoshop or photography doesn't mean that everybody's going to listen to every single one, and they might like your delivery. I'm kind of a goofy guy, and I like to crack jokes. I'm kind of wacky at times, and I'm sure some people like that, and other people are like, "I don't, this guy's weird", you know. And so they might listen to me, but they'll go listen to, you know, my friend, Daniel Lewis, or Cliff Ravenscraft, or any other guys that are talking about podcasting. So yeah, you can kind of do both and or and see how that works. And, you know, then if you get a lot more input where your audience, in the end, is kind of going to dictate a little bit what the content is, because you'll hear via email, via comments, voicemail, things like that. You'll kind of know when you hit a nerve. I have a friend of mine that does a podcast. He's a consultant for churches, and he goes around and it sounds kind of weird, but he helps with church marketing, and he was, I think he's been doing it for about six months, and he was kind of getting a fair amount of downloads, but not a lot of customer interaction. And I wish I could remember the topic he was talking about, he said, but all of a sudden I had about seven comments on the blog and this and that. I said, "There you go." I said, "Now, what was that topic?" And I said, "Good." I said, "Now the other thing is, everybody that's commenting, reach out to every one of those people. I said, because the good news is, depending on how you look at it, the bad news is, your audience is kind of small right now. The good news is, it's super easy then to connect with these people." I said, "And email, every one of those people, and thank them for commenting on your blog and see if they have any other questions and anything else you'd like to talk about." I said, "Because you've now hit a nerve somehow and find out what those people want and just go from there."

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that sounds great. So I guess, I guess that what I'm thinking like, we're talking about creating that community and getting that interaction. The difficult thing for particularly a wedding photographer, is that a bride and groom are planning a wedding, say, for 12 months, and then they get, they're going to be dropping off. So once they're married, they're probably going to stop listening to that podcast. So would wedding photographers and portrait photographers too, to some extent, would they have to approach podcasting a little bit differently? Do they have to produce evergreen content and refer people back to those episodes?

Dave Jackson: You could, evergreen content is a great idea, because that way it never goes out of style, and people can listen to it. You know, today, tomorrow, a month, an hour from now, or a year from now. I tend to, on occasion, repeat information. I don't replay the exact episode, but in some cases, technology is updated or something has changed. I know there's a service called Feedburner, and when I first started in 2005 it was like, the way to get your podcast into iTunes. And you know, about four years into it, people were like, "Well, there's another system that's actually a little better." And now in 2013 we're kind of like, "Yeah, don't you use that." So I have gone back and revisited different topics to update them. So that's something that happens in some cases. But if you can do evergreen content, it is really useful, because then people can go back and listen to your back catalog. And that's the other thing that's great about it is when that bride does find your podcast, and she's like, "Wow, this guy's so helpful. This is wonderful." She will go back and download every episode. It's, I've heard it time and time again. And the beauty of that is that again is the more they listen, the more of a relationship they're building with you, and the more connected they are to you. And then it's that connection, then that can be used to monetize the podcast.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that connection thing that is bizarrely true, because when we got onto this call, just before we started recording, to me, it was like, I really knew you. I spent hours with you in my car. As weird as that sounds, listening to you talk to me about podcasting, and you hop on the line. It's like, "Hey, I'm speaking to Dave. This is pretty cool. " And yes, I feel like I have that connection with you just by listening to you talk to me through my cast speakers.

Dave Jackson: And with a wedding photographer, you could have it, you know, have you focusing on photography and things like that. We could also just focus on weddings, you know, if you're just trying to attract bride and grooms, you know? So here are some things to think about, because I'm sure being a wedding photographer, number one, I would think as a kind of comical element you could, you probably have tons of "You wouldn't believe what I saw at the wedding this weekend", kind of stories, you know, where Uncle Bob got drunk and, you know, fell into the pool or whatever. I'm sure you've got tons of those. Those are always entertaining, I would think.

Andrew Hellmich: Definitely

Dave Jackson: But you've also probably got insights into, you know, "Here's, here's some things I've seen and that didn't work out right at a wedding, or things to avoid at a reception", or things like that. So that would be helpful as well. So it's not really so much photography, but it is wedding related that could help. And then again, anytime you can help somebody, they're always like, "Wow, he seemed like such a nice person, and he helped me. And I never would have thought of that." That's the other one. "I never would have thought of that."

Andrew Hellmich: Cool

Dave Jackson: And so when you give somebody that, and they can see the, you know, the mud puddle, when they can see the mud puddle that they just avoid and they didn't step in, they're thankful to the person that helped them avoid that. And that's, I hate saying this, because I can never say this word, right? But it's the law of reciprocity, and it basically means people feel indebted to the person who helped them. Basically, I want to scratch your back because you scratched mine. And that's one of the keys of podcasting, is if you can help somebody, whether it be you help them laugh, you know, you help them cry, in some cases, or you're entertained them, or you educated them, or something like that, they feel a certain indebtedness to you that "I would like to help you", and in some cases, they will help you by hiring you.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. So I'm just thinking out loud is, let's say I'm based in Adelaide, and I'm a portrait, portrait photographer, or wedding photographer, or both, and I've produced all this, this content. I've got my podcast up and running. I've been going for six months, and a client comes in, or they make an inquiry on the phone, and they've never heard of a podcast. I don't know what it is. They certainly haven't listened to mine. What would be the best way to let them know that I've got a podcast, and how do I get them listening?

Dave Jackson: Sure. First of all, it's hard. We're right on the cusp at this point. I believe the latest stats are, it was over 50% now, of people have heard of a podcast, the phrase has been around enough, but on occasion, I will still call it an internet radio show, just because everybody understands radio, they understand internet. So when you say internet radio show, they go, "Okay, that's great." And I usually have a button somewhere that's fairly obvious on my website. "This is play." And in my case there's, there's two websites you can use. One is called Pod Track, and the other one is Blubrry. There's no E's in that, B,-L-U-B-R-R-Y.com, that you can sign up there, and basically it will generate a script that you can put on your website. And the nice thing about it is it provides a button that when people click on it, it opens up in a new window so they can stay on your site and browse around and look at photographs while they're listening to your podcast. So that you're kind of getting a dual attack there. You're attacking them audibly or video. Of course, we should mention that podcast can be video while they're kind of browsing your site. So that would be the first thing I would probably say. Not everybody, depending on you know where you're at and things like that. Not everybody's kind of fully understanding what a podcast is, still, unfortunately. So that would be it. I'd probably start off with, when I talk to people about consulting, I usually say, "Yeah, have you ever thought about, you know, turning your blog into an internet radio station?" And they'll say, "Do you mean a podcast?" I'm like, "Yes, I mean a podcast." So, that would be that. And then just make it easy, I think, is the bottom line. That's where you say, if you have a button that just clearly labeled, play that helps.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So they might be expecting music at first, and all of a sudden, here's you the expert, talking about different scenarios at weddings and how to get better photos and which florist to go and talk to in the local area is the best that sort of thing.

Dave Jackson: Sure.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay.

Dave Jackson: And then the great thing is, if it's, if we go the other route, where it's kind of more of a Photoshop kind of thing, if you have a tip like that, one of the things that people, one of the hurdles of podcasting, in some cases, is getting people back to your website. But it kind of works because you've connected with them, so they want to come back anyway. But in some cases, you can say, "Hey, here's a, if it was a, if we're going more the Photoshop software slant, you could say, I use this filter. Here's what it does, such and such. It's really great". And it's kind of weird, because you have to paint the picture with words. But you can also say, "If you'd like to see an example of this, go to my website.com/", you know, 57 or something like that, and make it super easy for people to find whatever it is you just talked about. And there are plugins and things like that that make that easy. But that's another thing that, on one hand, unless it's so incredibly visually, I don't know what the word I'm looking for is, but if it's something that I just can't get, just can't get on audio, I can't even understand what you're talking about. I don't know that I would do that. But if you can describe it visually and then entice people to go back to your website, I would, I would still put it in an audio podcast.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so we're still aiming then to bring people back to the back to the website at some stage, because that's where they can get our details and make contact with us.

Dave Jackson: Uh huh. And then you can also, if you're really not sure if this is for you or if you want to, you know, if you find yourself in that boat where you're going, you know, "I'm spending, you know, a couple hours a week on this podcast. I'm not sure if it's really getting any traction." You can do something in your podcast that shows you that, yeah, people are listening. So if you have a podcast, and you could say, "Hey, if you order, you know, a certain portrait package, you know, use the coupon code such and such, and save X amount on the package", you'll instantly start to see whether or not people are listening or not.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Great, great idea to measure. Yeah, perfect. Okay, so, alright, so let's just talk one more thing about benefits of actually having a podcast. Can I, with the, is it going to help my website rank better, or are people going to, how will people find it, unless I tell them how I find my podcast?

Dave Jackson: What the, one of the things that you should be doing with your podcast is podcasters call them show notes. It's basically, in a nutshell, we peel back the curtain a bit. All the podcast is it's an audio a video file, if we want to get completely obscure, it could also be a PDF file, but typically it's audio or video file that is attached to a blog post, that's really in a nutshell how a podcast is. And so you need that blog part, that's the part that Google sees, and Bing and all the other search engines, they don't really index the actual audio or video file. So you need something for Google to sink its teeth into. So you still need to type up a paragraph or two about it, and that's what helps drive traffic to the website. Now the other thing is, is people may find your podcast and go, "Oh, this is awesome", and I can actually see it when I log into the School of Podcasting, where I can see any podcast or website I should say that links to particular episodes. So you can see where somebody said "You should listen to this. It's over here", and they've linked to that episode. I can see that I'm being linked to. So that also then helps drive traffic to your website, because you're being referred to on other websites that you should go listen to this.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay

Dave Jackson: So that's another way that then helps drive traffic to it. And the reason that, in some cases, they're saying you should listen to this is number one they listened. So it's the audio that kind of pulls them in, the text and the search allowed you to be found, but it's the audio or the video that, then again, created that connection that they went, "Wow, this is really cool." And now they're going to start telling their friends,

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, got it. So what about transcribing? Should we be transcribing our podcast and making giving Google more to look at? Or you wouldn't worry about that?

Dave Jackson: You can, my problem is, when I've tried it, and it did drive more traffic, it drove about somewhere around 20% more, but in time wise, when I sent my transcription, they type it exactly as you said it, which is what they're supposed to do, but I write completely different than the way I type. So when I say, 'you know', or 'um', or I tend to stutter on occasion, my brain, my mouth kicks into gear before my brain has fully formed the, uh, sentence, and so you'll see where they'll type, "It's, it's, it's, like this", like, well, that's, that's what I said. So the few times I've done it, I have spent so much time going back and editing the transcription that I'm like, you know, I could have just typed this at this point. So for me, it's not something I pursue, I have seen that it does benefit it, you know, in terms of, it drove a little more traffic. It also made the blog post really, really long. And for me, I guess that works. I just, it took so much more time for me that I just went, "You know, I think I'm okay, just typing a few paragraphs and I'll go that route." But, yeah, it's, it does drive more traffic. There's no doubt about it, just for me, it just added more of a time element that I was like, yeah, that's unless somebody figures out how to add more hours in a day. I had to pass on that one.

Andrew Hellmich: You speaking to the wrong people about that us photographers, we're always looking for more hours in a day as well. Never seems to be enough. So let's say someone wants to give this a go, Dave, what, I know I actually wrote to you about this. I mean, I bought too much gear to start with. I went way overboard. I bought a package. I didn't listen to you. I wasn't listening to you at this stage, I jumped in and I shouldn't have spent what I did. I'm glad I've got it now, but I certainly didn't need to spend as much as I did when I started. So how can people dip their toe in the water and give this a go?

Dave Jackson: Yeah, there are, there are people, and there nothing wrong with it. The equipment you have is top notch, and it'll definitely make you sound professional. And I always tell people really, like we talked about earlier. You, you know, you don't have to be the uber, uber guru, just have to know more than your students. Well, same thing with if we say audio and microphones, you don't have to sound absolutely like the pristine, you know, $4,000 microphone, $2,000 microphone. You don't need that. You just need to be, you need to be listenable. And there are certain services, ones that I talk a lot about. There's one called Blog Talk Radio. And I say that to tell you, please do not use that service. But if you want to hear horrible audio quality head on over, it's, it's beyond am radio. It's really, really bad.

Andrew Hellmich: So, is that something not to add into the show notes?

Dave Jackson: Yeah, do not add a link to Blog Talk Radio. But right now, if you go to Amazon, at least in the US store, there's a microphone called an Audio Technica 2100, it's the ATR 2100 USB, and I'm talking into it right now. It's $37 and I've had it next to the microphone that Andrew has which runs around $300 and does his microphone sound better? It sure does. Does it sound $250 better? I say not in my book, it doesn't. Because to me, $250 is a, that's a chunk of change. So it's really cool. And the thing I love about it is, right now, it's plugged in via USB, and it just went right into Skype, but it also has the ability to plug into a mixer. So it's it kind of works in both worlds. So if I have a co-host, and I have more people than myself in the room and I have multiple microphones, it works with a mixer. Or if I'm just flying solo, I can just plug it directly into my computer and use free Audacity software. And I've started my podcast for $37.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, now I'm thinking that most of my listeners would be using a Mac. I'll probably just, I'll probably just upset half of them. I don't know that for sure. So if they've, so they've got a Mac, let's say and they've got GarageBand, or they can download Audacity if your PC or Mac, which is free, they get a micro, a microphone for $37 and they're fine, that's it.

Dave Jackson: That's it. You're off to go. Now you're, being a photographer, you probably either a can do this yourself, or know a graphics person, you will need a what's called 'album art'. Is basically the logo for your show. You'll need that for iTunes. And here again, there are people that want you to spend $400, $200, you can actually get that, I use a company called podcastdesigns.com and you can actually get a generic kind of template version of Applemark for $10 US. Or if you want a custom one made, I think she's charging $40, so I will spend $40 instead of 400 any day. And she does great work. Now, again, a lot of your audience may have that skill set themselves, but if they don't, you don't have to spend $400 and that's how, how people kind of, you know, they'll buy the top of the line microphone, they'll spend $400 on artwork, and they'll spend all this stuff, and they come to me, they go, "Yeah, I spent, you know, $4,000 starting a podcast." And I'm like, "What?!", you know, and that's it's understandable, because there are people out there that will charge it, but there are other alternatives. And with that said, I do try to avoid free, because I have found that there are those times when, you know, trying to save the buck will kind of get you in hot water. I just did that myself. I just, speaking of photography, I just bought a light kit like the, where you have the two spots that go on and on, what that's called, I'm not a photographer, yeah, but I spent, I saw where a good kit was going to run me around 300 bucks. And then I saw a kit that was 99 for, it's got five of these fluorescent bulbs that you put in this little thing, and you put the white cover over it, and it's got the silver thing that reflects, I'm like, "This is awesome. 99 bucks!" I got it here, and it's already broke, you know? And I was like, "Yeah", and I kind of, like, was like, "Well, you tell everybody don't go for the cheapest thing on the block and or don't try to go for free at least." I'm like, I didn't follow my own advice. So, yeah. So you know, what are you gonna do?

Andrew Hellmich: That Audio Technical Mark, that's gonna be fine. That'll do the job?

Dave Jackson: That is fine. Yeah, I should say that. There are other like, you can, you know, use the build-in, like some people try to use the built-in microphone of their laptop, or they'll use those little stick ones that you can get a Radio Shack for five bucks. Yeah, those are no good. That's this, this is actually a microphone company, and it's, that's why, that's the beauty of it, is it is, on one hand, inexpensive, but it still sounds great, and it's durable, and it also ties in with a mixer if you need it to.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so, so they've got their microphone, they've got their software. They basically record their show. Do they need to have, you know, do you need to have the music with the intros and the outros and all that sort of stuff. Or can you just talk?

Dave Jackson: You can just talk. It's nice, we kind of, are all kind of pre-rogrammed, whether it's from, you know, watching, you know, talk shows at night or whatever. You know, we're used to having some sort of theme music or whatever, and it does kind of set the tone of the show and things like that. But I'm starting to hear more and more people where they just start off and they'll say, "This is the such and such Podcast. I'm so and so, this is where we talk about such and such and such and such. And on today's show, we're going to talk about such and such", they take a breath, and then they start talking. And I'm like, well, that's kind of different. But on the other hand, I don't have to sit through the intro and the outro, and because some people go a little crazy on that, and it's, you know, three minutes before they're really getting to the meat and potatoes. And so there's nothing wrong with that. I'm, you know, my personal preference, I like to have a little itty bitty intro. Just remember that, that first minute, or first two minutes, you should explain what the podcast is about, because there are more and more people discovering podcasts for the first time, and so they're hitting play, going, should I listen to this or not? So never forget about the fact that you've got that, that new listener coming. So I always explain to people that on my podcast, we talk about all things planning, from planning to promoting to producing and monetizing, etc, etc. So they kind of know right there within the first minute. Okay, this guy's going to talk about podcasting,

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, and you also cover a little bit about what you cover in that episode as well, don't you?

Dave Jackson: Yeah, I usually do a teaser, and this is just something that you pick up from, you know, TV and movies and things like that, where they'll, you know, "On today's episode, we're going to talk about such and such." And it really comes down to, it always comes back to your audience. And people think I'm weird when I say, "Well, today I'm going to talk about..", you know, whatever I'm going to talk about, you know, florists or whatever on my podcast. And if I'm not interested in florists, as a listener, I'm going to go, "Oh, well, I don't need to listen to this one." And people are like, "Well, why would you ever give them a reason to tune out?" And I always say, because then I'm not wasting their time, because at the end of the, however long your podcast is, five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever, if I haven't given them something of value, well then they look at, that kind of gets stuck on me that I have no value, or they're going to say, "'ll give the guy one more shot. And you know, if the next one doesn't do anything for me, I might unsubscribe." But if I've stopped them from wasting their time here again, I've done something nice for them. It sounds weird. I've done something nice by having you avoid me, but in the end, I've saved your time, and that is your audience's most prized possession is their time.

Andrew Hellmich: That's a great point. So if I was doing a podcast for portrait photography, I could say "Today's episode's about shooting newborns." And if someone's listening, and they've got a toddler, they don't have a newborn anymore, they won't listen to that episode. I haven't wasted their time. They can wait for the next one.

Dave Jackson: Absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Great!

Dave Jackson: And I've said that before where it's like, "Hey, I'm going to talk about this." And in my case, I use transition music if I have multiple topics in a, in an episode. And I'll say, "If this isn't for you, just fast forward when you hear the music, you know, I'm done", and it goes to the next segment, because, again, it's all about the audience. It sounds weird to like, "Hey, if this is going to bore you, skip it." And I always try not to have things that are boring people. But on the other hand, it's like you said, if I don't have a newborn, then this doesn't really apply to me. And rather than having to sit through it, you know, give me a way to skip around it.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. So where do we get this music? If we want to have some intro music or some voiceover, can I just grab something off, you know, one of my CDs?

Dave Jackson: That would be bad. Technically, well, not technically. That's absolutely illegal.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry, legal or illegal?

Dave Jackson: Illegal.

Andrew Hellmich: Sorry

Dave Jackson: Did I say legal? It could be. The problem with a podcast is it's downloadable, and that's where things get sticky. If it was radio, there's some things you could jump through. But in general, because it's downloadable, you get into a whole just can of worms. And the other thing is, with music, there is the person that wrote the song, there's the person that performed the song, and then there's the people that own the publishing rights. And many times that's three different people. You might have a songwriter that gave a song to, you know, a country singer who then sing the song, and the publishing rights are owned by their record company, and now you have to get all three of those people to say, "Yes, it's okay to use this for your podcast." Now, does that stop people from doing it? Absolutely not. But I always tell people, you know, jaywalking in America is illegal. People do it every day, but that doesn't stop if you have a policeman or somebody who wants to say, "Hey, you just walked across the street and you didn't cross on the corner, that's illegal, and here's your ticket." So just because everybody else is doing it doesn't mean it's okay. And so, do that with your own caution, I guess, because there are people that do that.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Dave Jackson: Now, the good news is there's plenty of royalty free music out there that you can find. And you can actually go to Amazon, you can buy a single track for 99 cents, and you can actually preview it right there. So that's a recent resource that I hadn't thought of, and because there are CDs of royalty free music. And with Amazon, you can buy a single track at a time. And there, again, is another one where some people want to charge you $100 for a single, you know, two minute track. That's insane. You can get a whole CD of music at, there's actually a video website that also has audio. If you go to a schoolofpodcasting.com/freemusic, it's not actually free. They charge you for the shipping, which is how they make their money. It's $8 to ship a CD, but it's a whole CD of music. And you can pick, you know, if it's jazz or, you know, rock, or whatever you want, and that is then royalty free. So you can use that in your production, you just can't sell it to people.

Andrew Hellmich:. Okay. Free downloads, okay?

Dave Jackson: Yeah, yeah, exactly so. And even if you were charging for it, you just can't take that music and say, "Hey, I will sell you this royalty free music."

Andrew Hellmich: Okay

Dave Jackson: If you're using it in your production, I believe it's okay. I'd have to go back and reread the terms of, you know, the agreement and all. But I think that's okay.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool

Dave Jackson: Because I know it's used in video games and things like that, and people are obviously selling that.

Andrew Hellmich: I think there's sites too, like Triple Script Music and things like that as well that, you know, there's places on online where you can get free or royalty free music anyway.

Dave Jackson: Oh yeah, there's Music Alley is, is one where you can go, and it's places where the musician has cleared it for podcasting. The only somewhat downside of that is that particular website somewhere in the podcast, you have to say "The music today is from musicalley.com."

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so could you say that right at the very end?

Dave Jackson: Sure.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, all right.

Dave Jackson: So if you..

Andrew Hellmich: I was just gonna say..

Dave Jackson: If you go to..

Andrew Hellmich: You go.

Dave Jackson: If you go to schoolofpodcasting.com/links, I've got resources for a lot of that stuff. So you'll see a section there for, for music.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect. So, all right, so my listeners got the, that they've got a structure that they're thinking of doing for their podcast. They've recorded their first episode, they've got their artwork, they've got their music. So basically, we finish up with an mp3 file, however long it is, and what do we do with it? We just upload it to our website?

Dave Jackson: Well, the magic of podcasting is it's actually ‘subscribable’ meaning. And this is where things get kind of geeky. But there's this thing called an RSS feed. It stands for Really Simple Syndication. And the beauty is, if you're using WordPress for your website, you've already got an RSS feed. You probably didn't even know it. And so this is where I find bloggers who are having success blogging, and they can actually take it kind of the next level with a podcast, by simply adding a plugin called Power Press. And what that allows you to do is you just, I typically recommend people get what's called a media host. There are two that I recommend. One is called Libsyn. It's l-i-b-s-y-n.com, and the other one is Blubrry, B-l-u-b-r-r-y.com, and these are companies that are dedicated to just serving media files. And so the great thing about it is they also provide great stats, so you can see how many times the episode was downloaded, what people were using. Are they on a Mac or a PC? Were they on their phone? All sorts of bizarre stats to find out a little more about your audience, and you can actually upload the file to those and then just paste it into your website. And it sounds kind of weird, but when you're on the schoolofpodcasting.com you can look at my website, and when you click on play, that file is actually coming from libsyn.com, so now the end user doesn't really know that. They just know they hit play and it started playing, but yeah, behind the scenes, it's actually coming from a media server, and that's a little more important now, because the new podcasts app that Apple has come out with, you can now stream a podcast. You don't actually have to download it first to your phone. You can actually just stream it there. And one of the reasons that you need kind of a media host is there's a certain characteristic. It's, I forget the actual term of it, but something was streaming byte or byte stream or something of that nature. And not every kind of typical web host, if you were to upload your file to that may have that characteristic that iTunes needs. So I always recommend, and that's going to be probably around $15 depending on how often and how long you podcast.

Andrew Hellmich: So per month?

Dave Jackson: Per month.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so what about if someone was just dabbling? So should we do that right from the start? If I'm just dabbling, I want to have a try this. Could I upload those, those mp3 files straight to my website? Or you can?

Dave Jackson: You could do that and give it a shot.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay

Dave Jackson: From what I've tested with, I have one website that I do that with just as kind of a test, and it still seems to be working with the podcast app. So I kind of have my fingers crossed on that. But yeah, if you wanted to, you could test that, the, I wouldn't recommend that for the long term, because what happens is web hosting companies what, they're not really prepared to have, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of people download that file, that one file multiple times, and it really taxes their servers, is what they tell me, because I've gone to places like Hostgator and Bluehost and all these other ones that have it in giant letters, unlimited bandwidth, and there's always an asterisk. It's like, that's for web pages, not media. And they, what's interesting is they won't tell you, I've tried numerous times. I'm like, "Okay, how many downloads do I have to have before I'm in trouble?" And they cannot answer that question for one reason, for whatever reason or not. But I do occasionally hear of people who either A, have their website shut down because they're just getting too big, or B, they get a big bill because they've gone over the bandwidth. And you're like, "How do I go over unlimited? And that's where they need to read all that stuff that with the bottom where you just say, "Yeah, whatever, I agree." Probably in there somewhere, it's like, "If you tax the server more than 10% of the time, and if this takes more time, then there is an additional fee, blah, blah, blah", and a lot of people don't read all that. So you can do it when you first start out, but in the end, you probably will end up having a problem somewhere, and the problem is, then you're having a problem in front of your audience, because now you have an audience. So I always tell people when you first start out, if you just want to make want to make sure the technology is working, yeah, by all means. But once you really get going and you're ready to kick it off, you know, go over and get a media host and, you know, cut out the Starbucks or something a couple times a week, and that'll pay for your media host.

Andrew Hellmich: Beautiful. Well, book some more portrait clients with your new podcast.

Dave Jackson: There you go.

Andrew Hellmich: So what about the, a lot of my listeners, won't necessarily have a WordPress site. I think a lot a lot of them would, but some of them won't. Can they still have a podcast? Or do they have to set up a separate WordPress website?

Dave Jackson: Now what you can do actually, in that case, I have a couple clients that have non-WordPress sites, and what you can do is either one of those media hosts, Blubrry or Libsyn. You can go in and they have all the tools you need to get into iTunes, and you can actually use their website as a kind of your quote "podcast website". They're not quite as pretty, but they will work. And in the case of both my clients, well, all we do is we host the media over there, and we type our little show notes over there as well. And then you can take again, just a script and have a little player and put that on your website, or you can actually embed a player for people to listen to on your main website, so you're not really driving traffic away from that, and people can still listen to the podcast there. So yeah, if you don't have a WordPress site, you can kind of use one of these media hosts and then kind of copy the podcasting part of that over to your main website.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, and what about the like the process of getting it into iTunes? Because everyone, I assume, wants to have their podcast in iTunes, is that a difficult thing to do?

Dave Jackson: Not really. The key is, A, you have to have an episode. A lot of people want to, they get all their artwork, and they type in all the descriptions and things like that. So you have to either, again, if you're using Libsyn or Blubrry, they have all the, basically the form that you have to fill out, because iTunes needs all this specific information. If you do have a WordPress site, again, use the Power Press plugin, it's free, and you fill that in. And what iTunes, because they're apple, and because they can demand it, iTunes needs just this little extra information. They just can't take your standard RSS feed. So you put in this information, and there's a link basically that says, "Hey, here is your RSS feed." That's their basic one, and now "Here's your RSS feed with the iTunes information." That's what you want to submit to iTunes, and you just have to have an episode there, because it'll get kind of confused, because iTunes only understands basically audio or video. If you were to send them like a blog feed, it'd be completely confused, because it has no idea what to do with text. So you have to have an episode, and it's really important. There's a website called feedvalidator.org, take the feed that you're going to give to iTunes and run it through there, because you want it to say, "This is a valid feed." Because the last thing you want to do. Say, "Hey, iTunes, look at this." And then they go over and they go, "Oh, it's broken." Because maybe you're you've done something, or you're using a, something on your WordPress site that's causing an issue. You want to make sure that it's, it's going to be happy to send to iTunes, even if it says there are a couple errors at the very top of it says, "This is a valid feed." Then you're good to go. And then you just go into iTunes, you click on podcasts, and on the right hand side, there inside the store, you'll see a link that says, "Submit a podcast." And you click on that, and it basically says, "What is your RSS feed" And you copy and paste that from wherever you're getting your RSS feed, of whether it's from, from the Power Press plugin, from Libsyn, from Blubrry, and you paste that in there. And when you click submit, you'll see your artwork, you'll see the title of your show, you'll see the description of your show, and you'll see you listed as the whatever it is, the artist. And you basically click on Submit, and it says, "Congratulations, we've received your submission." That doesn't mean you're in iTunes yet. That just means that it went through and then usually anywhere from 24 hours, I think is the quickest, to two weeks was the longest. You'll get an email that says your podcast is now in iTunes, and you only have to do that once, because it's actually listening to your RSS feed. And I always tell people, it's kind of like in radio, it's like listening to the signal right the here in Cleveland. It's 100.7 is an FM station, and if you think about it, whatever happens in the booth, whatever happens with that DJ, if he changes the song that goes out over the frequency, 100.7 and whoever's listening to that, here's that change. Well, it works the same with iTunes. iTunes is listening to that frequency, or in this case, it's listening to your RSS feed. So when you update your website, you've changed, you add a new post, you've added a new podcast that goes out over the frequency. Or in this case, it goes out over RSS and iTunes is listening to that. So every time you put on an episode, you haven't done a single thing, iTunes will automatically update. So I always tell people, it can be a little overwhelming, because it takes about 27 to 28 steps to get into iTunes. And people like, "Oh my goodness", but realize some of those are, pick your name, decide whether or not you want to have a co-host or not. So all those steps, many of them, are very, very easy, and once you get through that and you submitted it to iTunes, from there, it's pick what you want to talk about, talk about it, you know, edit it, upload it, tag it, and you're done. So it's about eight steps once you get into iTunes. From there, it's smooth sailing.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. Now I know that we just got pretty technical, pretty fast.

Dave Jackson: I'm gonna say that was pretty geeky. I'm sorry.

Andrew Hellmich: No, that's okay. So, but the if someone wants to have a go at this, and once they've got their MP3 file done and they've got their artwork done, that's when, you can pretty much hand hold them through the next bits, can't you?

Dave Jackson: Oh, absolutely. I have a lot of people that that contact me, like, "Hey, I'm done. I'm really nervous because I'm at the iTunes part", you know? And I'll, we'll just get on Skype and share screens, and I'll just say, "Here, do that, do that. Click here, click there, and we'll walk them right through."

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. So that's part of your consulting business with podcasting?

Dave Jackson: Yeah, I will do as little or as much as you need. Some people, I have some people that send me a script and go "Here, read this, and make my podcast." And then I have a friend of mine who is, he sight impaired, and he can do it all, except the last step. So he hires me for about a minute and a half every month to click on a link and copy and paste it so..

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic.

Dave Jackson: As little or as much as you need.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Okay, well, that's cool. So, so really, if they're, if they're totally stuffed, they can come to you right from the beginning. I know you've even got a Quick Start section where you can even set up a website for someone like it, and get them going from with nothing, that's right, isn't it?

Dave Jackson: Yeah, yeah, I have what it is. If you're, if you're starting this and you don't have a website at all, it's a fun little kind of, we talked about scratching each other's backs. What happens if you send me an email to [email protected] and just put Quick Start in the title, I will send you a link to order hosting, and it's the company I've been using for hosting for four years. And when you order your hosting through that link, I earn a commission. Now, for that commission, I then say, "When you get the welcome email from the hosting company, forward that to me, and I'll actually install WordPress. I'll install all the plugins and the Power Press and all that technical stuff we just talked about", and you'll still need to provide the graphics and obviously the content, but basically, the shell of your website is up, and you're like, "Well, great, Dave, but I've got a website. I've got this WordPress thing you're talking about. I have no idea what it does." Well, the other part of the commission, I'll go ahead and give you a free month at the School of Podcasting so you can go through those tutorials and understand how to manage your own website. And of course, along through that whole thing, I'm there to answer any questions that you have. So in the end, you spend less than $10 on hosting. You get a free month of tutorials at my website. You get your website set up, you get all the plugins added, and you put out eight bucks, and I earned a commission. So you put out very little, and I earned a commission, you get a website and you start podcasting. So to me, I was like, "Well, that sounds like a win, win". So yeah, it's actually a great little program. It works out for everybody.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. And I know that you, you're so helpful too with your podcast. I mean, people can also send you emails or send you voicemail, and you answer questions on your podcast and all that sort of stuff. You've been amazing, a huge help to me. So I'm sure that's available to everyone. Is that, right?

Dave Jackson: Oh yeah, absolutely. You can email me, [email protected], I do answer every email. At this point. I'm still happy I can do that. There are days when I open it up and I'm like, "Oh, holy cow." But that's, as you said at the beginning of the show, that's really one of the reasons why I do this, and it also gives me, I'm always trying to understand my audience better, and find out what their pains are and find out what their successes are. Because if you're having success with it, then maybe somebody says, well, they're doing this with their knitting podcast, and it worked. And I, I've never thought of this, but this might work for my photography podcast. And so there are a lot of ways you can kind of trans, I don't know if it's transcribed, transpose, maybe what other people are doing in their podcast, and, you know, do it on yours as well. So I'm always looking for podcast success stories as well as I guess, podcast pains. If you're having a problem, I can help you, because that way, you know, it is a lot of fun. It's a great way to be creative, and it's a great way to reach the world. That's the other thing that's always kind of amazing to me, you know, I'm talking to a guy, you know, on the other side of the planet. At this point in my very first piece of voicemail, I had been doing this newsletter for musicians for years, and I got the occasional feedback, but I turned that same content, put it out as a podcast, and within two weeks, got voicemail from Germany, and literally, about fell out of my chair. I was like, "Whoa. This is really, really cool."

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. That is awesome. And you actually mentioned something just before or during that technical stuff that you talked about a co-host that iTunes may need to know. So people need to understand they don't need to do this on their own, either they can have, if you're a wedding photographer and you like to work with a makeup artist, you two could get together and have your own podcast. You know, you don't have to do this all by yourself.

Dave Jackson: Oh, absolutely. And it, you can have a traditional co-host, or co-hosts. If you want to have, like a panel, you can do that. It could be an episode. Maybe you want to interview other people that are involved in weddings or photography or things like that. And that's where Skype comes into play. That's what we're doing right now. And so you could do an interview show. Interview shows are great because I'm, when I, when this comes out, the first thing I'm going to do is tell all my Twitter people, "Hey, go listen to Andrew's podcast", you know? So when you have an interview, hopefully your, your guest will help spread the word about your podcast. So that's a fun way to get it to grow. So there are all sorts of different things about it. And the thing I love is I occasionally will help somebody who's been downsized from the radio industry. And the thing they love the most that they just cannot believe. They're like, "Really, there's no?" and they're like, "No.", and what they're amazed is there's no program director. There's no real rules. It's one of the few places there's, there's no, you know, if you want to use the seven dirty words, you can use the seven dirty words. There's just no real regulation. At least here in the US. I don't know if it's different in, on the other side of the world, but you get to figure out how often you podcast, how long your episodes are, what you cover. You know, it's really up to you. And in that aspect, it's a very creative endeavor. And it's funny when you get somebody from radio who's been told, here are the songs you can play, you have to talk about the weather on the 10s, and it's a very strict, rigid kind of regime that they have to go through, and now they have absolute freedom. So yeah, you can do the podcast however you want.

Andrew Hellmich: That's, that's the best thing. And I felt really guilty when I missed one of my weeks, but then I realized, well, it's my podcast. Like, if I want to have a week off, I'll have a week off.

Dave Jackson: There you go.

Andrew Hellmich: That's good. Dave, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've got to thank you again for coming on the show. I think we know where to find you, but just want to tell us one more time the best way to get in contact with you if someone wants to get started with this.

Dave Jackson: Sure. You can email me, [email protected] and my website is School of Podcasting.com. I will throw out one other little website, if you want to hear kind of tips for the beginner, I have a streaming radio station. You can find that at schoolofpodcasting.fm

Andrew Hellmich: I didn't know about that one. Cool.

Dave Jackson: There you go. Well, I do have the occasional person that's really, they're, they're brand new, and all those kind of beginner kind of, a lot of the stuff we talked about today, microphones and mixers and picking a name and things like that, you can find at schoolofpodcasting.fm.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. You've got gear tabs and blogs and all sorts of stuff on your on your website as well, so people can check out all that stuff there.

Dave Jackson: Yep.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. Dave, thanks again. You sound bright and chirpy still, my eyes are fading. It's 1am here now. I'm so glad you helped carry the show.

Dave Jackson: Well, thank you. Again, this was a blast.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome.

Dave Jackson: Go get some sleep.

Andrew Hellmich: I will do. I'll catch you soon, Dave.