013: Brett Florens – Total Wedding Photography Success from Destruction, Devastation and Sadness

013: Brett Florens – Total Wedding Photography Success from Destruction, Devastation and Sadness

Andrew Hellmich: All right, I'm absolutely rapt to have Brett Florens on the show today. Brett has been named South Africa's finest wedding photographer. Nikon has Brett marked as one of the world's most influential photographers. He's a published author of two books, The Guide to Photographing Weddings and the just released Modern Bridal Photography Techniques. He teaches the business of wedding and portrait photography around the world through workshops and seminars and looking through his work, it's really difficult to categorize his style, but one thing is super clear to me, he is one damn fine photographer. Brett, welcome to the podcast, mate.

Brett Florens: Oh, thank you so much, Andrew. It's a pleasure to be here. And then that was quite a flattering intro. So thanks so much for that.

Andrew Hellmich: Well deserved. After looking through your website and your blog, and you know the different things you've got happening there, it's hard to believe you're not 60 years old. How old are you?

Brett Florens: I'm 42. I'm 42 but yeah, sometimes I do feel 60.

Andrew Hellmich: So how much of your life is made up of shooting weddings these days, and how much is sort of workshop related?

Brett Florens: Well, you know, over the over the last few years, I have concentrated a lot more on passing on the knowledge that I have gained over the years to newer photographers. So on average, I shoot about 20-25 weddings a year, and then the rest of the time is spent shooting commercial work. I do quite a lot of fashion work and clothing catalog work in Durban, where I live, there's quite a big clothing industry, so I shoot quite a lot of fashion here, which is really nice, because it enables me to have access to really high profile models and watch how they work, and that work influences my wedding work. So with regards to any other time that I do have spare, I really enjoy the teaching side of things, and I'm in the fortunate position where I have a perpetual summer. I'm in South Africa during the summer, and then off to Europe and the States to do the workshops and the seminars in the northern hemisphere summer. So yeah, it's pretty much all year round. And yeah, it's a nice balance.

Andrew Hellmich: It sounds beautiful. So where are most of the weddings that you shoot? Are they back home in Durban, or are they around the world too?

Brett Florens: Around the world, but I do target specifically Europe and South Africa, mainly because of the time differences. You know, if you're going to shoot in the States, it takes you two days to get there, and as you know, it takes anybody two days to get to Australia. So, so shooting in a similar time zone is, is more of my target, targeted area?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sure. So can you just explain to me, then, if you're shooting in a wedding, say, in Durban, or, you know, even in Europe, are they different, or is it exactly the same for both sort of both areas?

Brett Florens: They are. I mean, the structure of the wedding is very similar. The type of people that you're dealing with can vary. I find that shooting in the UK, the clientele are not as demonstrative as, say, for example, the Italians or the Americans. You know, I've shot, I've shot a few weddings in in the States, and they are just naturally demonstrative people, whereas in the UK, you'd find them to be a little bit more conservative, so you do change your approach slightly, but the format of the weddings is very similar, so the structure stays the same, but the people are different.

Andrew Hellmich: And when I was looking through your work, and like I said in the intros, it's pretty hard to, it's certainly hard to put you into a certain style of photography. I mean, it's, I see photojournalistic images there. I see, you know, definite fashion influences. How would you describe your style?

Brett Florens: Well, I have been asked that before, and I simply put it in terms of, like you said, the fashion inspired wedding photography. I do have a very strong editorial field to my work. However, that is the work that I put out there to attract clients that are fashion conscious. So you do need balance in the photo books of the photo albums that you're putting out there. So I do still shoot, obviously the photo journalistic approach, and then still shoot details and food and decor and things like that, but the work that I put out there is definitely aimed at attracting people who are confident and are really excited about posing as well, because my work is structured. I do pose and direct a lot of my shoots. So it's not, it's, it's balanced and it's definitely not 100% photojournalism, because I believe that photo journalism has got this very specific market that it attracts, and it's not my market. I want people to want to look into the camera and I'm very confident and excited about having their photographs taken.

Andrew Hellmich: So would you ever find then, and I want to go a little bit more into your story once we get through this little bit. But do you find then?

Brett Florens: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: If you, if you're talking to a bride that's looking at booking you for their wedding, and she's not confident and she doesn't have a look that you want, she may want to book you because she knows that what you can do with your wedding photography or so, would you turn her away? Or would you help her?

Brett Florens: No, I wouldn't turn her away. But you know, at this day and age, she's done a lot of research already, before she even makes that initial contact. So she's seen work online, on my website or on Facebook, or, you know, having seen other potentially friends of hers, seen my work through that, so if my work still appeals to her, and she likes that style. And she would, she would want, you know, the images that, that I do create, that I think, that innately, that she does have this confidence, and maybe she just needs it brought out of her. So generally, I do attract confident people. If I find that somebody has come across me that doesn't know my style, and I show them images, and without being condescending, those images potentially could intimidate them in terms of the poses and the confidence of the couple or the bride that's in those images that I'm showing, you know, that that could chase them away or feel that I'm not the right photographer for them, but I was, I will then read their personalities and pass them on to a photographer that I know is perfectly matched for their personalities. You know, I don't chase people away and say to them, "Look, I'm not interested in photographing your wedding", because, you know, I do believe that, that, you know, if the client is asking me, then, then they do like what I do. So they do have it in them to bring that, you know, that they do want those kind of images. So if I find that they definitely are not suitable candidates for the style of work that I produced, and I would definitely send them on to friends or to colleagues that I know would shoot correctly for them.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect, perfect. And that sounds like a good marketing technique already, doesn't it?

Brett Florens: Well, you do retain, you do retain the bride, as well as all the other weddings that go with her. If I had to say to her, "I'm not the right photographer for you", and she went off and found somebody else, that other person might not necessarily be in what I would call my circle of friends or colleagues, that we pass work between each other, you know, keeping, keeping as much of the work with within the group of photographers and other vendors that I've, you know, built up relationships with over the years, because one wedding isn't really just one wedding. It's, it's all the friends weddings and the bridesmaids and the sisters weddings that go with that. It's such a perpetual cycle that, you know, losing out on one wedding could have been your big break. That could have led to many other jobs.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so it sounds like word of mouth is sort of a big part of your business, like it is to a lot of photographers around the world.

Brett Florens: Yes, definitely it is. It's quite an interesting one, though, because, you know, the way, the way some brides work is you think that you've shot this most amazing wedding, and she's going to go around telling all her friends and everybody about you, but sometimes they want to keep that information to themselves, so that their friends and colleagues at work, or, you know, the other circle of friends don't have the same thing as they do. You know, it's like that little black dress that they really, really look good in, and their friends test them, "Where did you get that?" She's "Oh, this thing? I've had it for years", and, you know, I can't remember where she got it from, but, you know, she got a couple days ago. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: They don't want to show you around. You're that good. I love it.

Brett Florens: Exactly. So, so word of mouth is a tricky one, because, you know, you can't rest on your laurels. It's, it's more about, I think, how you behave at the wedding, that will be become attractive to other clients. You know, the length of time that you shoot between the ceremony and the reception, the way you dress, the way you speak to people, a lot of it has to do with your own personality. And I think that word of mouth is not necessarily straight from the bride. It can be from, you know, guests that were at the wedding, bridesmaids, you know, that type of, that type of word of mouth, not necessarily purely from the bride.

Andrew Hellmich: Yep, no, I totally understand. I know that you teach a lot of marketing and business when you go around doing your seminars and workshops, and I really want to delve into that. But can we, can we just step back and you let me know or tell my listeners how you actually got started in photography?

Brett Florens: That is such it's such a strange story for me, because, literally, I was fulfilling my national service obligations in the South African police force towards the end of apartheid. And you know, during the time that there was this transition to democracy, and I ended up being in the in the riot squad in Durban, and there were a lot of political protests and riots, and there was a lot of people dying in the townships during that sort of political unrest. And we were standing on the parade ground one day, and the captain said to us that they were starting up this new photographic unit which would document all the violence that was going on and the police reaction to it. And nobody really wanted to volunteer, because you would, you were kind of like the watchdog who would film the riots and then the police reaction to those riots and the marches and the political protests, so you wouldn't have been very popular. So nobody really volunteered. And about three or four days later, the captain said, "Well, you know, if nobody volunteers, we're going to pick somebody. And you know, just to give you a little bit more information about the unit, that you know, you're going to get your own vehicle, you're going to get your own car." And I thought that would be cool. So, so, so I put up my hand, I said, "Cool. I'll give that. I'll give that a go." And, you know, I tell people to this day that, you know, maybe if they had needed a mechanic, I'd be, I'd be a mechanic today. It really, I had no photographic inclination prior to that. And once I started, you know, photographing these horrible scenes. I mean, we were photographing a lot of dead people, the people that had been murdered in the political transition, and there were some really gruesome scenes that I had to photograph, but I just became obsessed with the whole process. And I had a couple of images printed with Associated Press and Reuters and circulated through Newsweek, and I really loved the rush of getting published. And I took all my spare cash that I had and put it into photographic equipment and built up my kit like that. And then, you know, after the transition to democracy, even though there was still teething problems, and you know, every country does have their problems. There were, there were still a few teething problems in our country. And people were still dying after the elections, but the international press weren't really interested in that anymore. So what happened was the market for selling images sort of became depleted, and I was left thinking, "Well, what am I going to do with the rest of my life? Let me make a go of being a full time professional photographer."

Andrew Hellmich: Before you go on there. So how old were you when you were you know, transcripted to the police?

Brett Florens: I was straight out of school. So it was, I was 18 years old.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And then they gave you the camera equipment and do they teach you?

Brett Florens: Yeah, well, that's, that's a funny one, because budget was pretty tight. So I was told that I'm in the photographic unit, but I had to go and get my own camera.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it.

Brett Florens: So, yeah. That's how the state works.

Andrew Hellmich: So what did you buy?

Brett Florens: Well, I bought a little point and shoot Ricoh camera, R-I-C-O-H, you know the Ricoh?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Brett Florens: It was a little point and shoot, and it obviously wasn't adequate for what I was doing, but on a policeman's budget that was all I could afford at the time. And whilst shooting in the townships, there was a photographer from Newsweek. I still remember his name. I must actually look him up and you know, get in contact with him, and thank him for his contribution to my career, because he had had a few cameras lying around in the back of his car, and one of them was the Nikon f3 with a 55 mil macro lens and a 135 mil fixed portrait lens. And he said to me, you know, "For what we are shooting, you can't really use a point and shoot. So here, here you can have my camera", and that's how I changed to SLR cameras, through this guy, Mark Peters and, yeah, never looked back since. And, you know, I've been a Nikon user since then, and very fortunate to be a Nikon brand ambassador.

Andrew Hellmich: That's amazing. So this guy gives you his cameras. You're out there. So you're basically, it's almost like a wartime photographer that the stuff that you're covering.

Brett Florens: Yes, well, definitely, you know, it was, well, you know, you mentioned wartime, during the time of the transition, in 1994 you know, 1993-94 per capita, we were the most dangerous place on earth there were more people dying per 1000 people here in KwaZulu Natal, which is the province that I live in, than in Bosnia at the time.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Brett Florens: I mean, it was, it was pretty much a war.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So you're, so how old, did you say you were? You were 18.

Brett Florens: I was 18, yeah. I was 18 when I was, you know, when I entered the police force. But I would say that I would be, would have been 20 or 21 when I started photographing. So that would have been 1992-1993. Yeah, I was, I was just patrolling the townships, and, you know, being a member of the riot unit for the first sort of 18 months of my photograph, of my police career. And then, the photography thing just happened. It really just happened, which, you know, Andrew, it's, it's, I'm not, I'm not a very deep person, you know, I I'm quite, quite black and white, and it's very, life is very, I'm not a complicated person, and however, this story for me really makes me wonder how many talents go undiscovered. Because if I had, if it hadn't have happened like that, I would never have known that I was able to take photographs and run a business. It literally, literally before that, I had, I mean, I'd never picked up a camera or was even interested in photography. It really was stumbling across it.

Andrew Hellmich: That's unbelievable. I mean, like you said, you should have been a mechanic, you could have been a writer, you could have been anything.

Brett Florens: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: So you leave the police, and I guess you in your early 20s, and you decide to go into business for yourself as a photographer. So what do you, how do you set up shop? What do you do?

Brett Florens: Well, there was, there was a quite a longer transition period, after the transition to democracy, because you must remember, I was making, making quite a lot of money on the side, selling images to Associated Press and to Reuters, as I said. And then in 1995-1996 when things started to, when the international press left South Africa and weren't really interested in stories here anymore. What happened then was colleagues, other policemen, other colleagues, asked me to photograph their weddings, because obviously they knew that I was a photographer, and if I can take a picture of a riot, I can take a picture of a wedding. So yeah, so they asked me to photograph their weddings, which I think happens to quite a few people. You know, even you know, even if you work at a bank and people know you're a photographer, colleagues ask you to photograph their weddings or their families, and yeah, that was kind of a natural progression to move into wedding photography, because I had shot a few of the guys that I'd worked with, I'd shot their weddings, and it's quite weird, because it's the complete antithesis of what I was doing before. I mean, I was photographing people on the worst day of their lives. If your family's just been wiped out, eight people killed in your family, that's the worst day of your life. So I'm gonna get much worse than that. And then, you know, going to go and shoot people's weddings where, you know, that's the best day of your life. And it was, it was, it was quite a mental transition for me, but I really thrived on it. And I think, I think it had balanced me in terms of understanding all aspects and realizing that you know, life isn't just all happy and fairy tales. There's some really hard realities to some people's lives, which I think that that enables me to retain a balance when, when I'm shooting.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Sounds like you're walking a tightrope there with you, whether you chucked it in as well. I've got a, I've got a good friend of mine who was used to be a crime scene photographer, and he shot lots of things, I guess, like you, some pretty gruesome scenes. And it took him years to pick up a photographer after he left, I'm sorry to pick up a camera after that, he just didn't want to, didn't want to look at a camera. So who actually, who taught you actually how to shoot?

Brett Florens: You have to learn on the job, when, when you when you're working, when you're working like that. Yeah. I just, I just, you know, I shot everything on, on program mode, on auto for the first six months. And then when I started with the SLR, that's when, you know, things get tricky, because you need to, you know, you need to understand lighting if you're going to shoot on manual or aperture priority and all those kind of things. So literally, I just became obsessed with gathering information. And, you know, without the internet, in those days, it was really just magazines and books. So pretty much self-taught. But when you say self-taught, you're gathering information. It's not like you worked out how light works, you know, you read magazines and books. And I was, I was also quite obsessed with watching how cinematographers light their films, because I think that a lot of the times the story is told through lighting, you know, and with wedding photography being a romantic genre, a lot of backlighting is used. And I don't think people really know why they use a lot of backlighting, but it is a very romantic light. So, so, yeah, it's pretty much self-taught. I didn't I didn't go to any university or post, you know, sort of tertiary education for that. So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I was teaching a captain in the police. The captain of the photography brigade.

Brett Florens: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: When you actually start up your own business?

Brett Florens: In August 1996, that was sort of the official, the official start of leaving the police force. And what I did was I had had six months. So that was 1996, I entered the police in 1990 and I hadn't taken any leave for six years, and they allowed us to accumulate leave, which meant that I had six months paid leave due to me. So I took that six months and literally rented a three by four square meter studio. Well, you know, office, office space. And I had an A frame sign made that just said Brett Florence Photography, and I put it in the road, and I sat next to the phone and waited for it to ring.

Andrew Hellmich: Did it ring?

Brett Florens: It did, not off the hook, but it did probably three or four times a week. But what I did was, when I went home in the afternoon, I would then walk around the neighborhood and put pamphlets into people's post boxes and do things like going to the local school, the local high school and primary school, when they would have sporting functions, you know, like sports festivals, rugby festivals, or water polo festivals. And I would photograph the kids playing or participating in the sports and rush to the one hour lab. You must remember we were shooting film then, rush to the one hour lab, have the photographs printed, and get back to the school in time to show the parents and the images that I'd shot during the morning and sell the images to the parents. So, you know, I realized that it was my way out of the police force. I didn't want to be a policeman for the rest of my life, and, yeah, I just did everything I could to get out of the police and make my photographic career my full time profession, because I didn't know anything else. So it had to work. It, there wasn't any option of failure. Failure is not an option.

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds like a movie script. So things have obviously, you know that they obviously progressed well, and you must have started booking weddings then. Did you move into a larger premises? Did you start marketing in different ways? You know, how did the business change for you after the school sort of shooting?

Brett Florens: Well, you know, it obviously doesn't just happen. It does take quite a lot of work and some time. But, yeah, the booking started, started picking up, and then, with regards to moving into photographing catalogs in the local industry here. As I said, there's quite a big clothing industry here, really what happened was I photographed an estate agents, any estate agents portrait, which is really just a simple mugshots. It's almost like an identity photograph. And I really believe in treating everybody the same, whether you're a janitor or the managing director of, you know, a major corporation. I really believe that everybody needs to be treated the same. And you know, my service impressed this estate agent, and he asked me, you know, "Do you photograph anything else besides you know people, families and sort of more like domestic kind of work?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm keen, and I'm really excited to be shooting anything." And he said, "Well, my wife is the marketing manager of a surf brand called Island Style, and she, you know, she'd be interested in using you for the Island Style catalog. So I said, "Well, that's fantastic. Thank you." And they gave me, they gave me an opportunity to photograph the new range for Island Style, and it was a one day shoot, and the company was very much image driven. Their advertising was very image based. And from that, Quicksilver saw that I was shooting for them, and Quicksilver asked me to shoot for them. And then with Quicksilver goes Roxy, there's their sister brand. And then that moved on to things like DC Shoes, Volcom, Fox, and then very, very fortunate to be able to say that Playtex and Wonderbra picked up on the fact that I was shooting swimwear, and they like my images. So yeah, I'm the official Wonderbra’s photographer in South Africa, which is one of the perks of the job.

Andrew Hellmich: So all this lead from that, from that one real estate agent shoot.

Brett Florens: That's it. That, you know, and that's how, that's how life works. You know, I really believe that in terms of picking up, you know, your work snowballing, when you're at a wedding even, you know, you have to understand that if you're sitting next to a guest, I know a lot of photographers, it's very hard work and it's emotionally draining shooting a wedding. And a lot of photographers feel that, you know, the general public ask the same questions and you know, a little bit of banter about the equipment that you use, but I find it's an amazing opportunity to sit down next to somebody that you would never have the opportunity to chat with during the week. And if you're shooting a wedding where the client is pretty well-off, and you know, it's a higher-end target market, all their guests are, you know successful people with disposable income, so you never know who you're sitting next to at a wedding. So you know chatting to them and showing them some of your work and not, not necessarily a hard sales pitch, but being friendly and engaging could lead to so many other opportunities, because you would never have that opportunity to chat with that person during the week. If they, for example, you know, a brand manager at, you know, a corporation like Unilever, you'd never get an opportunity to have a meeting with them. And when you did have that meeting with them, it would very much be about what you can do and, you know, trying to get that that sale. Whereas when you're at a wedding, everybody's a lot more relaxed, and you do have an opportunity to network and get your brand out there.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. I mean, I think a lot of us just generally network and chat and talk and, you know, happily banter along at a wedding. But you know, when you put it in those terms, it's, it's true, it's amazing. You never know who you're going to meet at a wedding.

Brett Florens: That's exactly, yeah, and they're in the mind, you know, that they're in the mind frame where they're not really thinking about work, they're there to relax. So it's a lot more relaxed environment. So your personality can, can do the selling, rather than when you go to see them at the office, and they've got 15 minutes for you, and you know, it's a really hard sales pitch, whereas the mindset of a wedding guest is, it's a lot different to when they're when they're in their suit and tie.

Andrew Hellmich: Definitely, yeah. I mean, it's, it's more our domain, isn't it? We're at home, there at the at the wedding sessions.

Brett Florens: It's our comfort zone. You know, if you go and see them during their working hours, it's their comfort zone, and it's a little intimidating for you, but, yeah, they're coming into our territory when they come to a wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: So at this stage of your life, I mean, you sound like you could be, you know, you could make a living just from shooting fashion and commercial work. So why? Why are you still pursuing weddings and portrait work?

Brett Florens: I love the rush of shooting weddings. You know, I find that it really is my comfort zone. Just chatting about comfort zones, I really feel that it, I feel so at home photographing weddings. And I know this sounds a little bit naive, but you only see happy people. You know if, and even if they do get divorced in eight months’ time, or even if they do have major fights. And you know, life isn't as rosy as a wedding day is. I don't see that part. I just get to see the cool parts. So, you know, being at a wedding and just seeing happy people is, it's, it's, you know, you almost you surrounded by positivity and just by osmosis, that makes you a lot more of a positive person. And I think that being able to, you know, meet your clients expectations with regards to the most emotionally valuable day of her life. It's quite a big responsibility, but if you've done your marketing correctly, your client will really like what you do, which then liberates you to shoot for yourself. I mean, it's a line that I use all the time. But if you do your marketing correctly, you've got clients that are booking you because they like what you do, which, which literally enables you to be, you know, your own creative art director. So, so yeah, you're just having fun and experimenting with light and experimenting with poses. And, yeah, it's a good day out. And you get paid, and you go to the most amazing, go to the most amazing locations, and you get, you get a hot meal. So, yeah, it's good fun. I really enjoy shooting weddings, you know, and, and just for an average, well, when I say average girl, I'm talking about a girl who isn't necessarily a model, when she receives her wedding book. Just that, that sense of pure excitement and the feedback that I get from them, it's so incredibly rewarding for me, and it's, it's great to know that people appreciate and I get a lot of validation through that.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm desperate to get into the marketing stuff, and I really want to talk about some of the things you just mentioned. Let's just join the dots to get from that we were shooting these fashion shoots for all the surf brands to shooting all the weddings and becoming a Nikon ambassador and speaking at WPPI like, how did you get from then to now?

Brett Florens: Okay, so, because I was shooting quite a lot of fashion, the fashion influence filtered through to my weddings, I really find, well, yeah, even you know to this day, I find a lot of the times, and when I say a lot of the times, I'm definitely generalizing. A lot of the times, you'll find similar poses and similar lighting setups. It's and it can become, become quite regurgitated the wedding photography. You know that this, this Dutch tilt. It's generally only found in wedding photography. And I, you know, I did shoot like that when I was influenced by other people shooting weddings, and I would, you know, research what other wedding photographers are doing. I've tried to stay away from what other wedding photographers are doing. I follow fashion photography and fashion photographers, and my inspiration comes from that. So when, when I was shooting fashion, I would use the poses that I would see that, you know, the models using, because when you shooting wonder bride, you're photographing, you know, the best models that we have in the country, and you can see how they move their bodies. And then as long as I can articulate that to a bride, then she ends up looking like a supermodel because of her body shape and that influenced my wedding style. And what I found there was that the higher end market is a lot more fashion conscious than the middle market. So you know, my marketing had to change because I was marketing from very little education in marketing and really just doing what I thought was the right thing to do, you know, putting images out there that would be what society thought were great wedding images. And I realized, probably in about 2004 that you need to specifically target a certain market. You don't want to throw out a great big net and hope to catch the marlin or the big tuna. You have to go fishing specifically for the right target market. And I had watched a few of the wedding photography educators, I'd watched a few of their DVDs that I had bought, and I started to really think about my marketing and change the way that I marketed myself. I also changed my pricing, because if you're going to change your marketing, you're targeting a whole new market. So you're essentially alienating your existing market, which means that if you're going to alienate your existing market and produce better images when you increase your prices, you might as well increase them substantially, because you're targeting a whole new market anyway. So I did find that increasing your pricing a little bit by, you know, sort of bit by bit, it doesn't have an effect in terms of where you want to get to, because almost any increase in price, it alienates your existing market. So I increased my prices. I went from shooting 60 weddings a year to shooting a lot less, and now I've almost kept it at saying I don't want to shoot more than 20-25, weddings a year because of the post-production and the product that I'm giving the client now. So yeah, essentially, the change happened once I realized that photographing for the middle market wasn't really, it wasn't really going to produce a sustainable career. A lot of photographers these days, especially the photographers entering the market, try and enter in on price. And that's all fair and well, to get a few weddings, but you know, you end up working really, really hard and not earning much money, which is, it's, you know, that doesn't help anybody, you know, just dilutes the market. And you end up really tired and emotionally drained, and it's really hard on the family to be working every single weekend, and when you really look at it, you realize you're not making much money. So I, there was a definite shift in in the way that I wanted to market myself, and, you know, took my career in a different direction. So then you mentioned moving on to the Nikon side of things. I had seen a few of these DVDs that the educators had been putting out, and I felt that although there was a lot of information, there was still a lot of questions that I wanted asked answered, and I decided to produce my own DVD. And I phoned up the Nikon representative in the in my local area, and I asked them if I could borrow all the high-end gear for one weekend. I had built up a little bit of a relationship with them, not really, you know, a huge relationship, but it had been a relationship where I had asked for, you know, the 70 to 202.8 and the high-end camera so that, so that I could use it just for one wedding, for the weekend. And I asked, I asked my videographer friend of mine to film it, and I said to him, "Look, we're going to make this DVD, and I will give you a royalty on the DVD. And you know, if it works, it works, and if it doesn't work, you know, no, no harm done, really, just a little bit of effort from our side of things." So I produced this DVD on photographing weddings, and I got a mic on, and as I'm shooting, I'm telling you what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, and what I'm thinking and what I'm going to be doing next. And I produced this DVD, and I took it to Nikon, and I said to them, "Look, this is what I have done. Would you be interested in endorsing the product?" And, you know, they were so impressed at that stage that I had done this in a proactive way, produced the DVD, and then taken it to them, rather than asking for sponsorship and going off and producing something, so right there, and then they signed me up for, for, I think it was a three year deal at the time where I had certain obligations to speak for them at photo exhibitions and conferences and things like that. So yeah, that was for the first three years. And then they signed me up again for another contract, which, which was a five year contract, which, which I signed last year, which I'm really, really excited about, you know, and then that just leads to so many other things, you know, Nikon International found out about me, and they used my images at Photokina in Germany, which that just snowballed to something else and that gave my brand legitimacy. And last year, I went to WPPI in Vegas, and I attended a few of the of the workshops and the lectures, and wangled my way in to getting my own gig this year. And yeah, that was definitely an out of body experience that was absolutely phenomenal. I spoke, I spoke on the 13th of March, and yeah, I will remember that day for a very, very long time.

Andrew Hellmich: And that sounds amazing. It sounds awesome. Congratulations with that, that sounds great.

Brett Florens: Thanks, mate. Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: I think if I was a listener now. Listening to this podcast, I would be still be thinking, "Andrew, please, please ask Brett, how we go from this middle market to the top." What do I need to do if I, even if I'm in the lower end of the market, I want to move up to the top, or to the high, high middle

Brett Florens: I think that's a very important topic that you raised there. I'm really not advocating that everybody targets the high, high-end market. Basically, what I'm saying is that you need to target the market that is higher than the market you're currently targeting, which is exactly what you've just said. If you're in the lower-end and you want to move to towards the middle market, or if you're in the middle market and you want to work your way up to the higher-end market. One of the main things is you have to use images in your advertising that is going to attract the right client, and that is essentially where your brand image comes into it. On your website, if you've got images that look like they were shot for people in the middle market or the lower-end market. It's not going to be attractive to higher-end people. Basically the old adage, like attracts like. If rich people see that you shoot for rich people, they're going to think, "Well, I move in those circles", and even if my photography is fantastic, but I'm shooting for the lower-end market. I'm not going to be attractive to people with disposable income. That's one of the major things that you need to understand. So if you have images right now on your website that look like they're attractive to the lower-end market, you really need to get those off your website. And I know what you're thinking is like, "Well, what am I going to put in in its place?" Go out, find the right target market in terms of getting models that look like they belong in the right target market, go and hire a dress, borrow a dress, or go to a dress designer and ask them for the use of the dress and in return for images that they can use in their marketing, and go out and shoot images that are attractive to the right target market. Now, a lot of people might think that that's cheating in a way. However, if you can shoot great images, and if you shot those images, I really don't think that it is so critical that they were not shot at a real wedding. If you can reproduce those images again at a real wedding, and you know how the wedding flows, because you've shot other weddings for the middle market or for the lower-end market, then, you know, if you can produce those images again on the day, that all, that's all that really matters to the client. A lot of times, there has been a lot of people in the industry that have been upset with educators that are advocating that you can, you can, that it's easy and that you can go in and, you know, with very little experience photograph people's weddings, but you know, there are photographers that have been around for 25 years that are not very good at all, and you've got photographers who have been shooting for two or three years, and they're fantastic. So, you know, it's, I think that experience does come into it, but that is more about learning and understanding how the wedding works. I don't think it's, it's essentially about photographic experience in terms of learning new techniques. Because if you, if you've been shooting for a long time, and I mean, I've been shooting 22 years now, it doesn't necessarily make you a good photographer, because you've been shooting for a long time. You could be shooting, you know, the wrong techniques, for the last 20 years. And I think if you, if you start out, and one of the major things is about setting a precedent. You know, if you go in and you go in on price, you're going to be setting a precedent. So that when clients from the weddings that you know there were guests at the wedding and they really like what you did for the bride and groom, and they asked you to shoot their wedding, and now you've realized that you can't have a sustainable business at those prices. Suddenly, now you increase your prices to what you think is necessary for a long term career, and you've now got a bad reputation for becoming greedy, you know, "Oh, now, now Brett's become greedy because he's increased his prices." And then, like I said, you've alienated your existing market. So I firmly believe that you need to really practice for as long as it takes. You know, some people might have to practice for three years before they are ready to go into the market and market themselves correctly. And some people maybe it'll take three months. So it really is, you know, there's no formula in terms of timing with regards to how long it's going to take you to change your market, but what you do have to understand is that when you increase your prices and you change your marketing, then there is going to be this transition period where you're not going to be as busy as you were before, because you have alienated your existing market. So when it comes to the images that you choose, when you are advertising in, say, your print media, for example, you have to understand that you need to use the best photograph that you have ever taken in your advert, not an image that you think is going to be attractive to the general target market, you really need to, like, I say, go out shoot the best wedding photograph that you have ever taken, whether it be at a real wedding or at a styled shoot. You need to make sure that your image that you're using is attractive to the right target market. Okay, so now that that being said, that's with regards to your print advertising, and the same, similar thing would happen if you're doing bridal shows, where you're actually at a bridal show, and you've got people coming to look at your work, and you're having the opportunity to meet with them. Then, then you've got the electronic media, which I chatted briefly about, which the same philosophies would ring true through to your website and to your social media, where the images that you are uploading need to be attractive to the right market. Also don't put 30 or 40 or 50 images up just to hope that somebody is going to like one of the images that you've put up. By the time a bride has looked at, you know, seven or eight images she's decided whether she likes you or not.

Andrew Hellmich: So where are you talking about? Is this you're talking about now at a Bridal Expo?

Brett Florens: No, no, on your on your website. Well, even at a bridal expo, you know, if you're at a bridal expo, a lot of the time, people feel that, you know, you've got, you've got this space that, that you've paid for. It might be three by four meters, or it might be just a wall behind you, you know, you might have taken a table. And what happens there is, you've got this limited amount of space, and you're, you're up against, you know, another 10 or 15 photographers at the bridal expo. And you think, I really need to utilize this space so you put up, you know, like 15 or 20 images behind you, images that show that you that you shoot details, show that you shoot photojournalism, show that you shoot fashion, show that you shoot the reception and food and what happens there is, you're, you're actually adding to the confusion of the bride, because you have to understand, in the mind of a bride, when she enters the market, she, she is basically going from being the average worker, you know, maybe she, she works in a multinational company, or at the bank or wherever, but, but she, she's, her job description is say, let's just say, for example, she's, she's a marketing brand manager at a, you know, at Unilever, and she works for Lux, or something like that. You could find that suddenly, now she's thrust, thrust into this role of being a wedding coordinator, and not just a wedding coordinator. This is the most emotionally valuable day of her life. So she's looking at so many different aspects, flowers, reception, food, DJ, videographer, all these type of things that she's got this information sort of sensory overload. Now you're just going to add to the noise when you're putting up, you know, 20 pictures behind you, hoping to attract a potential bride. Make sure that you are using images that are distinctively your brand. You know, work that that people look at and think, "Okay, well, that is a certain style." And obviously I'm going to shoot pictures of people cutting the cake, and obviously I'm going to get the first kiss, so I don't need to show that, and that's just really adding to the noise. So when I'm talking about using 10 or 15 images, yes, I am talking about bridal shows. But I'm also talking about your website. You know, the longer she goes through your website, potentially, the more chance you've got of letting her think that "Maybe, you know, this is not the right guy for me, because there's no distinctive style here." You know, it's seven or eight images, and she's already decided whether she likes you or not. So avoiding that sort of information overload is a big thing. And I think in your print advertising as well, one image, one image. I know that it sounds a little bit gutsy, but you need one image that sums up your brand.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, that sounds great. So, so when you're out teaching and talking to people looking to improve their business. I mean, obviously websites are a huge thing, and we talked about bridal expos. And so are you finding that people are still using print advertising a lot or not so much?

Brett Florens: Well, print, print advertising is very interesting. I think that the high-end market, there's definitely still opportunity in the print market, because what happens is girls go and buy bridal magazines to look through for ideas. Now I then choose the right magazine for my target market. Which magazine is my target market going to buy? So I will, even though it's expensive, I will advertise in that magazine, and I will advertise with a full page ad. Now, this does, this does give you a little bit of insight into the way I think, but as a photographer, you've got, you've got dual purposes for the print advertising medium. A lot of people think that the success of a print ad is how many weddings you book from that print ad. It's not necessarily about that. It's about other suppliers in the industry seeing you out there. And if I've got a full page ad in a glossy magazine that is targeting high-end people, the assumption is that I have disposable income to pay for that ad, which means I'm successful, which means that they need to book me for their wedding. That's as a client. The other side of things is I need other suppliers in the industry to take notice of me. So wedding coordinators, function coordinators, other players in the industry, when they buy the bridal magazine, they flipping through it, if they find me in there, I could end up working for them and essentially getting work through that because of the brand presence that I have in the print advertising. It's also an opportunity to let other photographers see your work. And by that, you know, as a photographer, the first section you go to when you are, when you buy a bridal magazine, or if you get your hands on a bridal magazine. The first section you go to is the photography section. Why is that? You want to check out what the other opposite, other opposition, are doing, and what, what you know, what adverts they are using. And by doing that, you're almost, you're, how to say this without sounding like an idiot. You're almost, you're almost intimidating other photographers as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, no, you are definitely putting them into a category, aren't you, once you flick through their ads?

Brett Florens: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Mentally, low-end, low-end, low end, middle or this guy's good.

Brett Florens: Yes, but you haven't even met them, and you've never even seen their work.

Andrew Hellmich: That's right, yeah.

Brett Florens: And just because, just because I've got a full page ad, now, suddenly you're taking notice of me, you know. And it does sound, you know, when you verbalize it. And I know that there might be a lot of people that are going to be listening to this podcast. So, you know, I am making myself vulnerable by saying that. But there is an element of, you know, putting it out there that, you know, you know, "You got to take me seriously, and you've got to watch out for me. And I am the am the opposition, and, you know, you got to lift your game."

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. I mean, I think, I mean, if Australia is a reflection of the, you know, other countries around the world, we as photographers are definitely pulling back from print advertising, but the spin you've just put on it, yeah, I think the magazine editors, they'll be wanting to tune into this one.

Brett Florens: Yeah. No, you know. I think you see, I think that print advertising, obviously, with the advent of electronic media and people can, can go through, you know, websites and podcasts and blogs. I do think that the print advertising has changed, but I do think that the tactile value of the print media is still, is still very valid in this market at the moment. What also happens is there's a longevity to your advert, because if you advertise in a print magazine. The bride gets married, and then her friend gets engaged, and she hands over her pile of magazines to her. And you know your circulation is not only a once off. You do get maybe sort of five or six people reading that magazine that are relevant to the industry and that are your target market.

Andrew Hellmich: So what are your thoughts Brett, then on social media, you know, things like, you know, Twitter and Facebook and Google Plus, you know, especially if you're targeting the higher-end market. I mean, do you want to be, you know, using those social media platforms?

Brett Florens: Well, I think it's really a. Important to be out there, you know, because you do get a lot of viral advertising. If I, if I put up images on my Facebook page, then obviously I'm going to get a lot of traffic there. Because she, the bride, is going to let all her friends know which are the correct target market. Her friends are my target market. I think that it needs to be approached in a way that has a maturity to it. A lot of people find validation in Facebook in terms of how many likes they have on a photograph, Chase Jarvis, obviously, you've heard of Chase Jarvis. You can't say no now.

Andrew Hellmich: I don't know him, but..

Brett Florens: Okay, Chase Jarvis is a great educator, and he's very free with his knowledge. And he wrote an article that was really based about stop trying to get other people to like your work. And what he was referring to is Facebook likes, 'Don't shoot so that you get 100 likes or 10, you know, 10,000 likes, it's not about how many likes you get on Facebook. It's whether your client likes your work or not, or whether you like your work or not.' Now, as I said, I only need 20 people to like my work, so you can get caught up with the social aspect of social media, with regards to how many likes you have, because it almost, it almost puts a numerical value on how popular you are, and that can be very dangerous psychologically, but that's a whole another, that's a whole another debate.

Andrew Hellmich: So you come home from a wedding, and how many photos do you add to your Facebook page from your wedding you just shot?

Brett Florens: Very interesting question, between 10 and 15. I do not want to go more than that. A lot of people blog the whole wedding, or Facebook the whole wedding, and I think that ensures that your client is emotionally fulfilled, and then what happens is, then they lose that excitement, you know, waiting for the wedding, for the wedding album. I've had many, many comments from people saying, "Wow, these are amazing. Can't wait to see the finished product." Where, whereas when you've when you've got, you know, 70,80, 90 images, you've lost that constant concentration retention, you know, because a lot of people are on Facebook at work and when they shouldn't be and, you know, the instant gratification has become that you just flick through all these images. So if I've only given you 10 or 12, you can look at those, those pictures a lot more with a lot more concentration. And because there's only 10 or 12, you don't start to end up, "Okay, all right, moving through, yes, yes. Okay, seen that one, seen that one", you do tend to have a lot more interest in fewer, fewer images. And then you really do have that excitement. "I can't wait to see, to see more." I've never seen that written about an album that somebody has blogged where they've put up, you know, the entire wedding, and right at the end, someone says, "These are fantastic. Can't wait to see more." You know, you don't see that because you know that I need to retain that, that that excitement, that clients are waiting to see, that to see their finished product.

Andrew Hellmich: So let me ask you, then, why? Why wouldn't you put, say, one image on Facebook with a link back to a blog post, and have your 10 or 12 photos on your blog rather than on Facebook?

Brett Florens: Yeah, that works. I'm all for that. I'm not one personally, for blogging about each wedding. I am not very creative in terms of my writing about the wedding and I think that if people have got that talent, you know, to say, you know, "I met Emma and Jason, and they were a fantastic couple, and we had such fun at the wedding. And, you know, this is what happened", more of a story aspect to it. I would, personally, I would rather just show the images than write something about it. However, I think that if you do have that ability to write and to blog, then, yeah, by all means, go ahead. You've got to use whatever talent you have to your advantage. So, so yeah, I mean, but I still think that when you do blog that that wedding don't, don't show all the images, because, you know then that there's a lot to do with emotional fulfillment. Once the client is emotionally fulfilled, you know, you know you're not going to be able to upsell them with regards to parents albums or, you know, framed images or canvases and things like that, because a lot of the times, they're very happy just to have it on screen or to have it on the iPad. So, you know, not giving them. I don't give my clients discs, CDs of the images. They receive, the images as prints or in the album itself, and I've never had a problem with that, in terms of the clients. I do upload the entire wedding to my website, which I send the link and the password to the client. And if they want to go through the whole album to order images, they do, however, those images are watermarked and resize so they can't reprint them, but that is not sent out to the entire, you know, entire world in terms of Facebook or Twitter or the blog.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, I want to be conscious of your time, but I've got a couple of dying questions, I want to know I'm seeing a lot, and certainly in Australia, and I'm imagining, I'm pretty sure it's pretty rife in America too. I'm not sure about the UK, but these shoot and burn packages.

Brett Florens: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: You know, what do you what are you saying to photographers that are that are heading down that road or, you know, already in that rut?

Brett Florens: Yeah, you know, I can see the attraction. I really can see the attraction. However, it's not long term thinking. If you look at all the successful photographers who have been around for a while running sustainable businesses, you know, I think that that's when you look at experience. I'm not talking about getting the job. I'm talking about running sustainable businesses. Those photographers don't give out the high res images, and they don't shoot and burn, the target market that they're attracting, likes a tactile album or a book that can be put on the coffee table and that people appreciate fine art printing and the fact that you spend time on your post-production, you know, this, this burning, shoot and burn. You're not really going to spend too much time on the post-production aspect of it, because those clients are very unlikely to print those images. A lot of the time it's going to go on to their onto their iPad, or to on, you know, onto whatever tablet they've got, or just keep it onto their computer, or just look at it on their laptop. So you know, the chances that they're going to print it, very, very unlikely. And not only that, that if they do print it, it's going to be, it's going to be done, not necessarily at a professional lab, so the image quality isn't going to be that great. I think that shoot and burn has a limited lifespan in terms of your career. However, I do see the attraction. I really see the attraction. It's a lot less maintenance.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So I totally agree with everything you've just said, but I'm sure that my listeners are already doing that shoot and burn, and they, you know, they've got the full time job. They're shooting weddings on the Saturday that they're trying to break into the market. They want to go full time. What would you say to them? How do they make that step from that shoot and burn to full time shooting better?

Brett Florens: A lot of it, a lot of the times, the issue is really the post-production side of things. It's not really the fact that they're not good photographers. It's really that they don't have either the time or the inclination to do post-production themselves. However, we've seen a huge increase now of people entering the market that are doing post-production. So you shoot the wedding, you can choose the images or they choose the images, and you are outsourcing your post-production. So you outsource all the other aspects of your workflow. I don't do my own post-production. I have somebody else who does that. I shoot. I think that I am a better photographer. Then Samantha, who does my post-production, and I know for a fact that she's a better Photoshop operator than I am. So surely that's a better combination, you know, having a professional, somebody who is specifically shooting and somebody specifically doing the touch ups. Now I know that your immediate thought goes to cost. However, if you're incorporating that in your cost, and your product looks so much better, surely, then you're going to be attractive to a different market. And you know, with regards to outsourcing, that person who's doing your post-production, they can do the touch-ups, you know, the retouching. And then they can also even do the layout of the album. There's amazing software that's out there, you know, the Adobe products you could use InDesign to design your album. And then, you know, send it off to the album manufacturer. And really, all you're doing is still just shooting the wedding, which is, which is what you wanted to do. The reason, the reason why people shoot and burn is because they don't want to do anything else except shoot the wedding. Now, that's what I do, but I just outsource everything else.

Andrew Hellmich: Sounds nice.

Brett Florens: It is. It is and it keeps me excited about it. You know, the post-production side of things is very, very labor intensive, and the client doesn't see that part. The client thinks, "Oh, well, you know, take the head from this, you know, dad wasn't smiling in this shot, and he was smiling in this shot. But, you know, just take the head from this and put it on to that." You know, you can do it. The technology is there. It's, you know that that's what it's about. However that takes time, you know, and the client doesn't see that with this, with this digital age, the client thinks that, you know, photographing digitally is so much easier than when we were shooting film. It's not, you know, when you were shooting film, it was, it was a lot easier. The person at the lab would be doing your color corrections and your luminosity corrections, and, you know, you send it to lab and the prints come back. You know, it was a lot easier when we were shooting film, a lot less labor intensive. But this day and age, the people don't see that and then assume that digital is cheap and digital is easy and digital is fast. Now, with all the other with a back-end side of things. You know, digital is a lot, it has its pros. Of course, it has its pros. I mean, otherwise it wouldn't have been, you know, as successful as it is, but there are many negatives to digital, and one of the major aspects is the post-production process, and that's what is limiting the people who want to shoot and burn because they're scared of the post-production. But you can outsource that then there are many places that that you can go to that will do your post-production for you.

Andrew Hellmich: So get some albums into your packages, put your prices up and chase the clients that you really want to have.

Brett Florens: In a nutshell, yes.

Andrew Hellmich: I want to hear all about how we can find you and your products and things like that, but before I jump in that, how can you tell me how much you do charge for your wedding photography?

Brett Florens: Well, obviously it's, it's relative to where I am. Just to put into some perspective, because a lot of people won't understand the currency that my country works in, but in Europe and in the UK, I started 8000 pounds.

Andrew Hellmich: Pounds.

Brett Florens: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome.

Brett Florens: Well, Andrew, I did sense a little hesitation there, which, which means that you're not my target market, which is not a bad thing, because I'm not my target market either. And I think that, I think that a lot of photographers have to understand that too, is that just because we don't have money doesn't mean that our clients don't have money. I, and I mean this sincerely, I can't afford me. I wouldn't be able to pay what clients pay me to photograph my wedding, you know. So I fully understand that I am not my target market, but and I know we are on time issues here, but one of the major aspects I wanted to go back to when we were talking about marketing and making sure that your work looks like it's attractive to high-end people and to or higher-end people from the people that you're targeting at the mark at the moment, one of the major things as well is that you need to live your brand. You need to be, to look as if you fit in with your target market, which means wearing the right clothes. It means smelling nice. It means having the right haircut. And for the female photographers out there, the right hair and makeup, and just the whole package needs to reflect the fact that you are targeting higher-end, higher-end clients. When I say high-end, I'm going back to the same thing that we chatted about a different target market to what you're targeting. Now, I'm not saying that we're all going for them, you know, the 20,000 or the $30,000 wedding. We're talking, I'm talking about from, from a photographic perspective, now I'm talking about the budget for the entire wedding. I'm, you know, I'm talking about what the kind of money that people want to spend on their wedding photographs. So I'm not saying that everybody needs to target that, but what I'm trying to do is to elevate people out of their existing market where they do find that it is a bun fight and it's a, you know, everybody's, you know, 15 dogs going after the same bone.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that's a pretty good description of the wedding photography market in a lot of areas. Mate, it's been an absolute pleasure. How can people find you, Brett, and hear more about what you do and what you teach?

Brett Florens: Thank you. Well, I'm on, obviously, I'm online at brettflorens.com, and that's Florence with an S, so it's B-R-E, double T, Florens, F-L-O-R-E-N-S.com, and I'm on Facebook. I'm on Twitter, yeah, just, it'd be really nice to chat to some people, you know, drop me an email. I'm very open to people asking questions on Facebook, and, you know, even dropping me an email. I think that if I can help in some way, elevate the market, then then, you know, essentially, it helps me as well, you know, if you can elevate the entire market. Because, you know, as you mentioned, there are areas and there are photographers out there who are very, very talented, but the dilution of the market in the recent years has really made it difficult for some people to have a sustainable career. Yeah, you know. And then just in terms of what I'm doing in the next couple of months. I do have a workshop coming up in in August, in London, which, which is always a lot of fun. And then I'll be speaking at SWPP, which is in London in January. And then, yeah, back to WPPI in Vegas in February, and then really, really excited about the fact that I'm going to be on Creative Life. And we still negotiate, in negotiation as to when that is exactly going to take place, but it's looking like it'll be the first quarter of next year. So really excited about Creative Life.

Andrew Hellmich: That's good. What topic are you going to be covering there, do you think?

Brett Florens: Well, I'm going to be talking about photographers looking to other genres for inspiration, staying away from cliched wedding photography. And, you know, shooting images that are fashion inspired and are editorially, you know, magazine inspired. And like I said, all forms of art, you know, art films, you know, there's a lot of films that are not mainstream films that you can get so much inspiration from in terms of the way people like light, you know, do their lighting. I mean, Stanley Kubrick, what a great cinematographer in terms of the way he used to light things. And the European Film circuit is amazing. You understand fully what's going on with the language. But it's all about the lighting and the mood that the that they're trying to convey when they do produce these, these amazing movies.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, so really, so should be looking at these moving and watching, not so much for the story, but for the lighting and the cinematography.

Brett Florens: Yes, and that's true. All sorts of visual media, you know, when you, when you're driving to work, or whether you, you know, just look at billboards and look at how brands use one image, you know. Just take, for example, say, Guess, you know, Guess Clothing. Look, how they use their imagery to, you know, sell an entire concept. They're selling a lifestyle, you know. And if you if you can use advertising techniques that big brands are using in our type of advertising, then I'm sure it's going to be a lot more successful for you to get clients that like your brand, you know, Abercrombie and Fitch, the marketing campaign that they have, some people might find that it's, you know, it's very much geared towards good looking people with great bodies. But it is, it is, it is, and that's who they are targeting.

Andrew Hellmich: Your target market too, isn't it?

Brett Florens: Are you putting words in my mouth? But yes, yes, yeah. I am targeting people who are looking at Guess and Abercrombie and, you know, Tommy Hilfiger. I look at those advertising campaigns and make sure that my, my advertising is in line with, with their concepts.

Andrew Hellmich: I don't want to let you go without asking about your book. Where can people get hold of their Modern Bridal Photography Techniques?

Brett Florens: That's on Amazon, amazon.com as well, as well, I suppose it's on all Amazon's, yeah. So, so basically, just, just Google it, go online. There will be in local bookstores as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that an eBook read, or is it an actual physical book?

Brett Florens: No, it's a, at the moment, it's a physical book, but usually after about a month or so, it's only just been released, and in fact, as we are talking now, officially, it hasn't been released. First of June is the is the release date. However, you know, I have my copies, and you can order them right now. It usually takes a month or two before it's on eBooks. But, you know, it is a New York based publisher, so it's worldwide. It's not necessarily only localized. It's a worldwide publication.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. Well, I'll put links to that and your other book too, in Amazon, on the show notes for this episode.

Brett Florens: Thanks, mate.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm so glad that I made contact with you, and it was really good to chat. Once a listener suggested that I get in contact with you, and as soon as I Googled you, I went, "Wow, this guy's awesome." You haven't let me down one little bit. When are you coming to Australia?

Brett Florens: I'd love to come to Australia. I nearly had an opportunity to come to the Gold Coast to do a workshop there. And yeah, I'm open to any suggestions, if anybody wants to facilitate a workshop, we basically need to get 10-15, people together. I would love to come to Australia. I have, I have shot in Australia before, and it's very similar to the lifestyle and the weather conditions here in South Africa. So it's definitely in my comfort zone. And yeah, I'd love to come out there and conduct a workshop or two.

Andrew Hellmich: Beautiful. If I can help you in any way, you let me know, and if you certainly if you're coming out, we'll publicize it on the podcast as well.

Brett Florens: Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Andrew Hellmich: Brett, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for spending the time with me.

Brett Florens: Fantastic. Have a good day, mate.