030: Bernie Griffiths – Photography Business Success Coach

030: Bernie Griffiths – Photography Business Success Coach

Andrew Hellmich: Today I'm really excited to welcome Bernie Griffith to the podcast. Bernie is a longtime photographer. He's been a successful wedding and portrait photographer for over 40 years. He's now a business coach and runs the business ASWPP, which is Advanced Success for Wedding and Portrait Photographers. Instead of going into a big spiel all about Bernie. I'm going to read you three testimonials that I found on his different websites. Here's the first one, "Thank you for opening my eyes and getting me away from the rut I was in. I've just recorded a record sales week of $4,500 in sales." Here's another one. "The best thing that ever happened was I found Bernie. He gave me the confidence to raise my prices and re-evaluate my products, the changes resulted in dramatic increase in average sales" And here's just one more, "The best decision I've ever made for my business was consulting with Bernie. I wish I'd done it so much earlier." Well, I'm really excited to have Bernie on the podcast today, so we can fire a bunch of questions that you've been sending to me, and we can find out the secrets to having a successful business. Bernie, welcome to the podcast.

Bernie Griffiths: Cheers. Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, it sounds like you're doing lots of good out there, that's for sure.

Bernie Griffiths: Well, yeah, I'm speaking to photographers every day, nine o'clock in the morning until five o'clock at night and beyond.

Andrew Hellmich: Would you want to start my giving us just a bit of a rundown of your background, and I'm going to start firing questions at you once we know a little bit about what you've done up until now.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, well, one of the things I bought my business in 1969 and I know I paid $500 for it, and that business I had for 40 years, giving it away, probably 12 months ago to become a full time coach to the photography industry. So I've sort of walked the path that many photographers are walking now, and I've got a good insight into the problems and difficulties that photographers have, not only when they're starting the studio, but also later on, when they you know, after two years, 10 years, 40 years, you know, I've got a good idea of what's going on. Initially, I, when I was 15, I left school and worked in a processing laboratory. So I processed the films and then they were printed and distributed to the various chemists around the town. I lived in England, and then I had this goal. I wanted to travel the world and be a successful photographer, and within a very short time, I achieved that by being chief photographer for P & O Lines on their flagship, The Canberra, and travel around the world as a photographer for 18 months. And one of the trips we did was we used to come to Australia. So having seen Australia, I loved it so much, I decided that I would come here as a 10 pound pom and open a studio, which I did in six months. So I was 23 years old then. So I was thrown into the deep, deep end, and I had to learn quickly, because that's all I've ever done. So my whole livelihood depended on success. So yeah, that's, that's my story in brief.

Andrew Hellmich: Now it's funny, because in the lead up to, you know, just before I hit record, I asked you, "Is there anything you know that you want me to ask you particularly, or anything you want me to avoid?" And you said, "Andrew, look, I'm an open book, just don't ask me any technical camera questions."

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: And I thought you were joking.

Bernie Griffiths: No

Andrew Hellmich: But you said, what did you say to me?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, I said, basically, my passion has always been business. Photography was always easy for me, because, as I say to people, I think I was born with a camera in my hand. I never found the art of photographing difficult. It was just something that I had. I suppose it's like someone that can play a musical instrument, who I'm very envious of. Without music, just by ear, they can pick up a musical instrument and play it. I was like that with a camera. I didn't have any fear of it. I just did it. It was an extension of my body. So I didn't become a technician at all. I became a basic technician. But I never, you know, climbed or elevated myself to being a brilliant photographer. So maybe, if I have any regrets, it's that I didn't focus on photography and elevate my position in the industry as a, you know, I'd probably be a quadruple master photographer, or grand master by now, but that was never my desire. I wanted to run a successful business, and that I did.

Andrew Hellmich: So what are your thoughts on people that are concentrating and you know so much on perfecting their craft, enough of being the star photographer? Is that important? What are your thoughts on that?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah. Yeah, well, I think it's important, but it's, it's obviously important to elevate your skills and to produce great images, if you want to do that. All I did was produce images that sold.

Andrew Hellmich: So hang on. So is there a difference?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah. Well, there's a big difference. I got to learn very quickly about what type of photograph people would pay money for, and that's all I took. I rarely pressed the shutter unless I saw a sale. So I was coming purely from the business side. I was not driven by money, but I was a professional photographer. And a professional photographer in my eyes, and still is, is someone who earns their sole income from photography. So, and I had to do that. I mean, my wife didn't work. I had two kids. We put them through private school, all of that. I went through all the cars, the Porsches, the Rolls Royce’s, all of that. So I've sort of been there and done all that. And being a great photographer is great for the ego, but not so good sometimes for the bank account.

Andrew Hellmich: So what would you say to you know, all the people that want to get into photography as a business because they enjoy photography?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, that's great, but remember, it is a business. So first of all, learn the business. You'll always be growing with your photography. That's an ongoing thing. I never stopped learning with my photography. I never stopped trying to take better images. But you've got to lay down a firm foundation for your business to be able to sustain all that. I mean, if you don't make the money, you can't buy the equipment that you may want to elevate your photography. So if you're starting off, lay down a solid foundation for your business. Learn spend your money there first, and it will reap rewards for you in the future.

Andrew Hellmich: So what do you mean, they spend money on learning about business.

Bernie Griffiths: Business education.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so I mean, where do you see most businesses that you consult with falling down? Is there a pattern that they, you know, that they fall into, whether where they're failing or where they could improve?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, well, as I say in my book, and I was just flicking through it this morning. There's an old saying, you know, 'Build it, and they will come.' And a lot of photographers maybe think that, you know, start taking photographs, and the clients will come. Well, they won't. They may for a while, but then you have to learn about marketing, and then you, it starts to get a lot more serious. Then you've got people exchanging money for images, and then that's called business, you know, and that's the harder part, but photography, yeah, always work on it. Always do shoots. I used to do four shoots a year. I used to practice four times a year. We'd get a bride and groom, dress them up, take them a location we liked, and practice using different films. And when digital came along, you know, pushing the ISO up to 1000 and just seeing what result we got, try different locations, use different off camera flash techniques. I was always trying to perfect my craft, but in the background, I was always learning how to do business better as well.

Andrew Hellmich: It sounds like you're saying that the marketing side of the business is probably, or is the most important part. Without marketing, you don't have a business?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, customers are crucial. True in any business.

Andrew Hellmich: Let me be more specific. What should we do in our marketing to get more clients?

Bernie Griffiths: You want that in a nutshell? That normally takes about three hours, part of the consulting I do. There's a lot you can do. And I know as a photographer going way back when I was 24-25 years old, I did everything. I didn't hesitate. We used to promote market, advertise, one of the early ones we did, I can remember vividly. We put a winner family portrait competition in a local hamburger joint, and we had 950 entries in a week, and so we're frantically sending out, mailing, addressing letters to, you know, these people to say, "Congratulations, you didn't win, but you won a consolation prize of a photographic session and print", and that'd keep us busy for three months. And I used to shoot, you know, 40 sittings a week. That was normal in my life then, but it was because I was promoting and that was just one of the things that we do with portraits.

Andrew Hellmich: So what about in today's climate, in today's, you know, online world, what are you seeing that's working for your clients?

Bernie Griffiths: Because everyone's different. Photographers live in different areas. You know, maybe a country town. It may be a small town. It may be in Melbourne, it could be in another state. What you have to do is do some projects as I call them, and then test them and measure them. What might work for one photographer won't work for another? To give an example, I took on a new client a couple of weeks ago, and I said, "Well, you know, you're new to all this. You haven't done any marketing. Let's do something simple. Let's put a Facebook post. Let's do a, you're going to revamp your website. Let's do a kids wanted, and let's say we'll specify the age. Let's say one to four years old. We'll specify the area, so we'll say the Dandenong Ranges", 'Looking for kids to photograph for our new website.' Now we put that on Facebook, on her Facebook, and she sent me a text. She's saying, "This thing's going viral". Now, when she said viral, it didn't actually go viral, but she was amazed what response she got from it. And you know, from that it was able to give her 10 photographic sessions. So it worked. It worked for her, but it worked for reasons that she had the strong headline, that she had the target market and all of that. So I would give that, which I have since given to another couple of photographers, and said, "Try this in your area." So we'll see how it works for them. And that's just one thing. That's a starting point. But nowadays, you have to do everything.

Andrew Hellmich: I'll come back to the everything, but with that particular promotion on Facebook. So was she looking for free sittings?

Bernie Griffiths: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: And then she did a sales consultation after that?

Bernie Griffiths: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: So were the clients upset because they came in for that free sitting or were they made aware beforehand that they could purchase prints as well?

Bernie Griffiths: Okay, so basically, this was only done two weeks ago, right? So she hasn't done the sittings as yet. They're just in a diary. But part of what I wanted to do for her, my strategy for her, as well as the marketing strategy itself, but my own for her was for more fault..

Andrew Hellmich: I just lost you when you said your idea was for her to have more sittings?

Bernie Griffiths: And also so that that could fulfill her getting more experience, not only in shooting, but in selling. And yes, there will be things put in place that customer will know that they have the opportunity of buying photographs when they see them.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay. So she's basically promoting to build up her portfolio, and she's going to use some of those photos of her free shoot, and then give them the option to actually purchase images or prints following that, okay, so as long as that's made clear to the client beforehand, I mean, that's..

Bernie Griffiths: It has to be, because that's good business. You can't, you don't set out to get upset clients, and you have to be open and transparent. They will know before they go to view their photographs, what the photographs are going to cost, and it's an opportunity for them to purchase any.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, okay, that's great. That's great.

Bernie Griffiths: Because in this case, it may be people that have been thinking about going to have some photographs taken for a while. This, for some is just a little hook that says, "Oh yeah. Well, okay, yeah, okay." And now they're in so it's just an encouragement to them to get those photographs done that they were thinking of getting done anyway. As far as my client's concerned, they're going to her rather than someone else.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, perfect, perfect. It's a great way to kick things off. And so I imagine then she'll try other things like this, and build up pretty quickly.

Bernie Griffiths: This is only the beginning. This is just starting it for her, and then it'll give her a little bit of experience and to know how it works. Because obviously, I don't want to be coaching her for the rest of her life. She has to learn what to do, how to do it, how to test it. How to measure it. I can give her the systems. I can give her exactly what to do, but she has to go through the process.

Andrew Hellmich: Let's take a client like this one that you're referring to, so she's new, and she's starting out. Now, all of a sudden, she has an influx of bookings, and so she's going to do all these shoots that she has scheduled, then she's going to come back and do post processing, and then she's going to do sales consults.

Bernie Griffiths: Yep

Andrew Hellmich: And then she's quiet again. I find a lot of photographers are asking the question how they should stay organized, how they should run their business, so that things run smoothly and consistently, rather than up and down, up and down, up and down. How do we avoid that?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, well, that's one of the mistakes that photographers make. And I was talking to one of my clients this morning, and we've got her into the field, a specialist field of equine photography, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Uh-huh,

Bernie Griffiths: So, photographing horses, and there's, there's a lot of potential out there, and she did a sale last week of $1,700, you know, photographing family with their horse, and there's a lot of horse owners out there. I gave her another project with a vet to approach, and she'd sent an email to this particular vet and hadn't had a response, and she's saying, "What shall I do next?" And I said, "But you've only approached one vet." What I told her to do was to approach every vet in the area, because you can't just expect one thing to happen, because if it doesn't happen, you've got no work. When you've got something happening, you should have, they say you should have between five and eight promotions happening all at the same time to give you a consistent amount of work. And then, as some of these promotions and marketing strategies fall by the wayside, as they do, you always need to replace them. So you have to be all the time working on your business, working marketing strategies. And now you know, even as I look at what other business people are saying, it is 80% business. And for photographers, 20% photography. So that's where your time has to be 80% of the time.

Andrew Hellmich: So this client that's doing the Dandenong Ranges promotion, so let's say she has this big influx of shoots and she's going to be doing this post processing and things like that. Should she be setting aside a day or two days a week then to still continue to do promotions and keep things going? Or Should she just get all those ones done first?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, no. She just will keep adding to it. She's got this running now. We'll do something else. Because the marketing, I suppose a lot of photographers think it takes a lot of time. It doesn't have to. How can it take time? If you've got a coach, and I'm telling you exactly what to do, but I suppose if you're doing it yourself, then yeah, it may take a lot of time, and knowing what to do, I've done hundreds of promotions over 40 years. I've got a good insight into what works and what won't work. I had a client again this morning. Sent me an email, and there was this offer of putting a $1,500 ad in a national newspaper here, you know, glossy magazine, pull up the, pull out magazine from a national newspaper. "Should I do it?" And in the end, I told her she shouldn't. So because I've done similar things, and I don't think it'll be effective, except for elevating her brand or whatever, but as a marketing thing, it won't bring in money. You know, I've wasted a lot of money myself on advertising and marketing and some things that, you know, you go, "Hey, that just won't work. I've had a lot of great ideas that haven't worked, believe me."

Andrew Hellmich: So what do you say to photographers that say, take out an ad in a magazine? And I know that's done less and less these days. First of all, how can they measure whether they're effective or not? And what would you say to the photographers that don't get any bookings, but they say, "Yeah, yeah, but I've got brand awareness out there."

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, well, you have to test and measure. That's you know, businesses test and measure. You can test and measure if you have a call to action and the deadline on the ad, so if the customer has to respond by a certain time, then you know that you're going to get your response in a certain time. So you can test and measure, and that's not difficult to do and test a measure goes all the way through. If you do get sittings from it, then you have to measure what the average sale was. And one of the things photographers, that really frustrate me, I was always had great numbers. I could tell you, and I've still got a book from 1983, I could tell you how many sittings I did on particular weeks, what the core product was that we sold. In other words, what the main print size, or whether it was framed or whatever, and what the average was weekly. I could tell you how many sittings my average sale over months, weeks, years. I used to have graphs showing sales going up and down over various months. Photographers out there, if you're listening, you have to keep your numbers. You have to measure. You have to track your business progress as you go. I have a client at present, and I don't know whether I'm getting off the questions you asked, Andrew, but it gets a bit like that. You know, she's got, she's done, she's got two studios, right? And they've done 91 wedding inquiries, 91 wedding inquiries this year to date. And her strike rate. In other words, couples who've gone in to see, gone into the studio inquiring about wedding photography, they've booked 32%, so if you look at that, they book 3.2 couples out of 10. And that's not enough, s it? Three out of 10 is not enough, you've got to get it to at least four or five out of 10. You've got to book half of them going in. But if you don't measure it, you don't know that it's not happening. It's just gut feel. You know, as I say, you can't go to your accountant at the end of the financial year, and he says, "Have you got all the figures?" And you say, "Yeah, I think we did about 100 sittings. I think the roundabout it was round about, you know, $1,000 average." He'll look at you in a strange way and say, and say, "The tax department won't accept that. You've got to have real numbers." And running the business is running the business daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, and keeping the numbers. So that's one of the major mistakes I think photographers do make about running the business, because they don't know what the business is actually doing.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah. I agree, for sure. I don't know anyone that keeps the graphs and numbers and you know the details that you're talking about, that's for sure. So I want to come back and ask you about the client that wasn't getting enough bookings. But you mentioned back there about core products. What do you mean by core products?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, with your test and measure, you should always try and have a core product that you sell the most of, take portraits, for example. And I was always thinking of new products that customers would buy. I created a core product which was a 32 inch square metallic photograph consisting of 11 images. In other words, it was a collage mounted on 20 mil artboard, and I put this up in my studio. So when I used to do my sales presentation, I would say, and this at so much and originally I priced it $950 and then someone bought one. And so the next week, someone else bought one. So then I put the price of that up to 1150 and someone bought one, and the next week, someone bought one. So per 1250, so over a two month period, this product went from 950 to 1450 and it was my core product. So I was able to, because it was selling, put the price up, tweak the price up to come to the market. So it was market demand, wasn't it? People were paying a high price for this particular product, so I was maximizing my sale so, and that's what I mean about a core product. It should be one product in your portrait structure that 80% of your client clients buy, and that product should be priced up around where you want your average to be, your average sale, because some people like with my core product, it was 1450 but people did buy more than that, but sometimes couples wouldn't buy that, and they'd buy less than that, but averaging out, it was my average was $1,500 over many years. So you've got to develop a core product. And that core product was a product that no one, no other photographer got. And that's the other key as well, create something that's unique to you.

Andrew Hellmich: And with that core product, does that need to be an individual item, or can that be a package as well?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, it can be a package. In other words, nowadays, it could be package of, of, you know, the all the high res on CD and, you know, signature keepsake album at a package price of, let's say, 1450.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I know that makes sense. Now, you just mentioned digital files out, and I want to, I'm going to get getting sidetracked here, but going back to the girl or the business that was having all the inquiries, let's say they had 10 inquiries. They booked only three weddings, or getting three bookings out of those inquiries. What was something that you suggested that they try to improve those numbers.

Bernie Griffiths: When I looked at the price list and the price list strike, first of all, they were doing like every other photographer does. I always did the opposite to what photographers were doing. You know, with my magazine advertising, if all photographers were putting a lot of small photographs in, I'd put just one photograph. I was always trying to be a leader. What a lot of photographers do is just sort of copy what other photographers do. So all photographers look the same. And so it was with this particular photographer's price list. It was structured like every other photographers. In other words, it talked about time, you know? So this package it's six hours, this package is eight hours, this package is 10 hours, and so on. And I said to her, "So what we have to do is take away all the hours. Let's think what a bride wants. What does a bride want? Why would a photographer charge hourly?" I mean to me, taxis are like that, or I don't know. I don't know anyone that charges hourly, really, except tradespeople or whatever. So I said, let's give her what she wants. She wants the freedom to be able to know that you're going to be there to capture the moments of a wedding day. So what are those moments? Those moments tend to be, you know, the groom's preparation, the bride's, the ceremony, locations, family photographs and up to seating time at reception. So let's just put that as your timing. Not eight hours. The other thing I think she's doing wrong. She's charging an extra $200 if it went over the hourly rate. Now I don't know about you, but I saw a professor specialist eye person two days ago, and he charged $180 an hour. So I think trying to charge a photography at $200 an hour is a little bit excessive. So what I'm saying is I've restructured a price list so that it's more customer friendly. And we haven't reduced the prices, but we've certainly given more perceived value. And one of the things I've done with that is introduce, which, again, is a first, no other photographers are doing this, like this, which is a social media bundle. So I thought, what do brides want? Well, they're into social media. Most of them are Gen Y, so they get that on Facebook. You know, they love Pinterest. Most brides go to Pinterest now to get ideas. So why don't we sort of embrace all of that and include it? So my social media bundle that we've introduced in a lot of wedding photographers price lists fulfill all the bride's needs for what they want with social media, and that means embraces YouTube, Pinterest, their phones with a sticky app and with Facebook all done, total bundle, and from that come all these fantastic opportunities. And how long have you got, Andrew? Another hour and a half? Because you know, if you think about it, you've got to offer something that other photographers don't offer, and packages in such a way that it's attractive. So it's not the price anymore. It's the value they get for the money. So what I'm suggesting, and this is, you know, this is a first. I mean, any photographers out there, if you're not getting into a little bit of video, you have to, video is the future. This is fact. YouTube is the second most, you know, search engine used. So what a photographer does, this is my suggestion with the bundle to fulfill the YouTube aspect is, let's supposing during the wedding or just before the photographer leaves. Normally, when the photographer leaves the bride and grooms was, "Oh, gee, Bernie, you were so fantastic. You're amazing. I can't wait to see the photos. We've had such a good day. You're such a great guy. Thank you so much. Kiss, kiss, hug, hug." The only thing with that with me, it got left, you know, in the atmosphere, not recorded. So I thought, wouldn't it be great if a photographer just set up the camera on a tripod, nice light, said to the bride and groom, right "Guys, we've had a fantastic day. Can you just say what a day we've had?" 1-2-3 click, 15 seconds of the bride raving about you. "And by the way, while you're there, guys, we'll just do this little electronic thank you card. I'll send you the link. You can get your guests to look at this on YouTube. Just say 'Hi. Thanks everybody that came. We've had a wonderful day. Don't we look great? Jeff is, never looked so handsome, and I know he thinks I look beautiful, too. And we've had a great day, and to Uncle Bob, who came all the way for England. Special thanks. And we're off to have a great party at the reception." So we've got two little videos there. They both go on YouTube, right? So you're fulfilling your YouTube channel. When you put them on YouTube, you can put all the tags on them, what it does it also gives you information or food that you can use on Facebook to send people to this link, or just with a right click, you can embed the HTML clock code directly into Facebook so you can put little videos on your Facebook. You're fulfilling your SEO because you're enhancing your SEO with all the tags, with your videos that you're learning up there. You're getting video testimonials. You're sending a little, getting a little electronic thank you card for the bride and groom, which is, you know, a good thing to do. So these are just some of the things I help clients with to get, you know, to get into in today's environment. And the funny thing is, although I come from, you know, having had a business over the years, I still can't believe how, how little used all what we have to offer now is being used by young photographers. I'm going, "Wow. Why aren't you doing something?"

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, that's absolute gold. Some that stuff there. I mean, getting those testimonials is fantastic. What a time to get them.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: You know, it's so much better than just a handwritten notice. That's fantastic. They'll be so excited. It's in the middle of the, you know, that of the night, it's, yeah, perfect.

Bernie Griffiths: The dress there, and it doesn't have to be done at the reception, it can be done in the park.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Bernie Griffiths: Imagine if you've got, you know, the bride and groom and all the bridal party around, they just go off, wouldn't they? It'd be "Wow Bernie, you've been fantastic. It's been such a fantastic day", and they could all have a rave. Let the bridal party go for it, there's so much you can do.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, that's so good. That's so good. Now, look, I've got so many questions written down here when I ask you, and I'm conscious of the time. So can I, can we just sort of zigzag a little bit here?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, and I try and give you broad answers..

Andrew Hellmich: Not at all, this is absolutely great. Let me ask you, your view on selling the digital files or keeping them from the clients, let's say in a portrait, in a portrait situation, because I know that most wedding clients are giving away or selling their selling their digital files now. But what about what do you say to your portrait clients? Or what would you say to portrait photographers out there? Sorry.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah. Well, first of all, it's like a lot of things. We try and fight it, and eventually we have to give in. If any photographers are fighting it, eventually they'll have to give in. It's all about test and measure. What I did with my portrait side was test and measure. I decided I'd just put the sale of the files on my price list as a product. And the way I did it, I just put up to and I wanted about $100 an image, minimum. So I put up to four images, 495, up to six images, 795, up to 10 images, 950, the whole CD, 1250, something like that. So I put on my price list and made people aware that they could have that as a product. What I found over testing it, over my next 10 sales was 85% of my clients didn't want files. Didn't mention files. Now there was a reason for it, but I had to test it. They didn't want files because I'd position myself in the market as specializing in wall portraits. So people generally, even via any promotion I did, my first contact with them by phone, I would say we specialize in wall portraits. So I was always sort of pushing that in a quiet, gentle way, and that's what most of my clients ended up with. So they had the choice of files, but didn't actually want them. And I think a lot of photographers perceive that that's all the clients want, but they want them because that's all they may offer. And I know that it's out there, but you've got to separate yourself from it. You can still offer the files, but certainly don't give them, sell them at a price that's appropriate to a print price, your smallest print. And I did exactly the same with weddings. I was one of the first to include a full set of high res images on a CD with the album. I was one of the first to do that because I tested it. What I found was it didn't decrease the album sales. When they used to come back to me and do their album planning session, they still spent a lot more money after, no one said, "Oh, we getting the CD anyway, so we'll take out those two pages." It just didn't happen. So you have to test it.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you think things have changed a little bit now? Because I'm, you know, I'm hearing that less and less couples are taking albums or doing bigger upgrades.

Bernie Griffiths: Could be true. Talk to my photographer friend in Brisbane. He was telling me about most of his bride spend $7,000 on their album.

Andrew Hellmich: So test and measure is that what you're saying?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, he doesn't give a CD of the images people come to him for albums. It's where you position yourself in the market. There are more and more photographers out there offering high res images on a CD, that's for sure. But it doesn't mean to say you have to. That's what I mean about photographers copying photographers. Do what you want to do. Don't worry what other photographers are doing. Position yourself and then go out after that target market.

Andrew Hellmich: You mentioned target market there. Now this is a question that does come up. Should we, should we be targeting any person that's happy to pay the price that we're charging? Or should we be looking at particular clients to work with for our businesses?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, both, you know, you've got your price structure, and that's the price, and as long as you haven't based that price on other photographers.

Andrew Hellmich: So let's say someone rings and they say, "Look, I absolutely love your work, Andrew, we really want to book you, but you're a little bit too expensive." What should I say to that client?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, I've had that happen. I've had people come back and say, "We knew we should have booked your Bernie, you know, we couldn't afford you, and we had got someone cheaper, and we're not happy with the photos." Well, I can't help that, can I? It's the same with everything we've all probably bought something because it was cheaper than something else, and then wished we'd have paid the extra money.

Andrew Hellmich: What about, Bernie? What about if this is that, the actual say their point, say you've done the wedding consultation, they're looking at booking you. And they give you a ring after the, you know, the next day. And they say, "Look, Andrew, I really want to book you Bernie. I really want to book you. I love your work. I love your personality, but you're just a little bit too dear for us. We're looking at someone down the road that's a bit cheaper."

Bernie Griffiths: So what you're telling me, I would respond by saying, "So what you're telling me is you want a bit more time to pay."

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so give them some different payment options.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, well, they're not, anyone can afford it. Most of us can afford most of the things we want, but it's just what we want. You know, most of us can have the capacity to borrow heaps of money, or to find the money, or to borrow the money, but it's how much is it the want?

Andrew Hellmich: If you get that phone call, does that tell you that they do really want you?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, yeah. Well, I tell them, "You know, the worst thing that you can do is get someone else and you're gonna and you're disappointed", you know, and we all know, you know, paying a higher price gives us more assurance that we're going to get what we want. I mean, how disappointing is it? You know, when you go cheaper and it doesn't work out, and I'd point that out to people. There is a difference, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, let's move on. Because..

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, fine.

Andrew Hellmich: What are your thoughts on renting or hiring gear for a wedding, as opposed to, you know, buying it outright, particularly if you're starting out?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, I don't think you need much gear nowadays. You know, in my digital days, I know a lot of photographers love bags of equipment, but you don't need bags of equipment. Let's face it, you don't need a 200 millimeter, 2.8 lens to photograph a wedding. You know, I could quite happily have, I haven't, although maybe I did in my Hasselblad days, just used a 50 mil lens. It wasn't complicated. It did give me a particular style. You know, using a 24 to 105 mil is what I would use at a wedding. And that's all I'd have in my hands, that and, you know, a camera, one camera, and maybe an assistant with a reflector or whatever. I was never the person to have a bag full of lenses.

Andrew Hellmich: So what do you say to the new photographer that's saving up to buy that 7200 2.8 lens? Should they, should they outlay two and a half $1,000 or $3,000 and buy it? Or should they lease or rent it? Or should they just go without it?

Bernie Griffiths: I think they should spend the money and get some coaching with me, and I'll show them to make the money, so then they can go and buy it cash and not worry about it. But the lens itself won't make them any money, will it?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Bernie Griffiths: And that was the point. The camera's only a tool. You can't take more saleable photos with a different lens. It just doesn't work.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. Nice answer. All right, how, have you got an idea how much photographers should be spending on advertising and marketing? Is there a percentage or amount of time?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, put it this way, and this is the way I teach my clients, do as much marketing as you can for as little money as you can.

Andrew Hellmich: But little money often means more time.

Bernie Griffiths: Well, no, you there's, there's things called negotiations and whatever. You know, there's distress advertising in magazines that you should always get instead of paying full price.

Andrew Hellmich: This is when the magazine's about to go to print. And they're looking for..

Bernie Griffiths: Exactly. The magazine's about to go to print. Someone pulls out. They've got a half page ad. Normally it's two and a half thousand. They're trying to give it away for 500. I used to do that all the time. I had a client two weeks ago, big bridal fair in Melbourne, and they said, "I've just had this offer, a double stand, six by three, clients pulled out, normally $6,000 they offered it her for a thousand but she only had five days to put something together. So we quickly thought, what are we going to do? And we did it, and it was great. You know, she got 60 leads from that, 60 brides who she'd spoken to, and we'll put those into a strategic email marketing campaign. And, you know, we'll see how many bookings we can get out of that. But, but those are the things that you have to do, save money, if you can. And everybody out there in advertising now, and bridal fairs, magazines, whatever, is negotiable. I mean, it's amazing, but that's the way you can save, save money, isn't it?

Andrew Hellmich: Negotiate

Bernie Griffiths: Negotiate or use or try other things like Facebook and things that don't cost you anything at all. And the other things, of course, is third party to get people to work with you, and, you know, refer you and give out vouchers and all sorts of things that doesn't cost much.

Andrew Hellmich: Excellent. Okay. What do you suggest photographers do if bookings start to drop? So things are going on good, and then all of a sudden there's a fall off? How quickly should we respond, or panic? And you know, what should be our response do you think? Because I know a lot of photographers start throwing things, let's put the digital files in. Let's drop our prices.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: What should we be doing?

Bernie Griffiths: That's the immediate reaction, isn't it?

Andrew Hellmich: It is.

Bernie Griffiths: Well, it is. They should have been able to foresee that it was going to happen anyway, that it was going to sort of get quieter. But the thing is that they have to do something now. Sometimes we tend to panic. And I know one of my clients that had three sales of no sales, and they started to panic a bit, you know, and then the next day I get an email saying we've just done a $3,500 portrait sale. So things are back on track. Knee jerk reaction is no good, but a measured response is good, and that's why they, you have to have a lot of things in place to sustain regular sittings. If it suddenly happens like that, where you suddenly have no work, then you've left it too late, really. But I know that's like, what it's like. I've been there and with a lot of my clients, they're at that place at present, so and it's all about momentum. It's just once I get a client and the momentum starts going, like even with this, with this early client, then you start rolling, you know, you get positive, you start doing things, and you start thinking, and your brain's active and everything's okay again. So when that happens, you've just got to get momentum going and do something. Don't do nothing. Doesn't matter what you do. Even just go for a walk in the fresh air and take some deep breaths, or take a hard look at yourself in the mirror and then act on changing it, and then whatever. Google and see if you can find some inspiration. Because a lot of the time it is just inspiration. But try not to get it from photographers. Try and get it from somewhere else, outside of the industry.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm hearing that more and more, especially from successful photographers. You know, look for inspiration outside the industry.

Bernie Griffiths: Oh, yeah, always because people are running business a lot more business-like, photographers generally, are notorious for just not being serious enough of running the business and it's serious, you know? It's serious if you can't pay your mortgage, it's serious. If you know you can't pay the bills. Does get serious?

Andrew Hellmich: Last question for you, Bernie, do you think it's important for photographers to enter awards to be a successful business person?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, I do. I never did. I, many, many years ago, I entered the AIPP awards and I got one a half a merit point. And from then on, I never entered again. Funnily enough, and yet. But I think it's important, as I said earlier, I think if I have a regret, it's that I didn't, you know, enter awards and hone my photography, because by now, at least, I'd have that sort of one could say a qualification of a triple master or whatever. And I do encourage all of my clients, in fact, I look through their folios to select photographs and tell them how to tweak them and to enter awards. And I know one of my clients three years ago who I consulted with, one you know, the state Photographer of the Year this year, and she just kept going, and that's fantastic. Yeah, sure, enter awards. Don't be afraid. Go for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Does it help their business, or does it help their confidence? And that, in turn, helps their business?

Bernie Griffiths: It helps everything. It helps you know your self-esteem, your mindset. You know if you, if you've won an award, you know you feel more comfortable with higher prices, if for your business, I know there's no problem getting local newspaper coverage of, if you win an award, you should always contact the local newspapers. You'll get your picture in there, your photo, and that'll give you advertising. It'll give you credibility. It'll position yourself in the marketplace a little bit higher. So there's many reasons to do enter awards. And I know five years ago, I started the photography Excellence Awards, which we're just about to launch this year, just for that type of photographer that wanted to dip the toe in the water with awards. So I'd encourage people to enter it, and then from then, they get a feel of it. And then if they wanted to enter the big awards, like the AIPP awards, that's great also. So my awards were just a little stepping stone to help photographers get over the mindset of 'It's not for me.' Well, it is for you. You never know what success you can have if you don't answer. So enter, go for it.

Andrew Hellmich: Great. So will you have details about that, those awards on your website?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, in two weeks’ time, we'll be launching, and this will be, I think it's a sixth year, and there are trophies. We give trophies away. So, you know, it's been really good for a lot of photographers starting off, and it's become a little bit international, because we've had a couple of internationals interim won awards. So, yeah, always enter awards. Don't be afraid.

Bernie Griffiths: Nice. Bernie, it's been an absolute pleasure. You got to tell everyone where and how they can find you.

Bernie Griffiths: Oh yes, I've got two websites. My consulting website is www.berniegriffiths.com, and it's got all the prices my consulting on that, so it's pretty open and transparent of what I do. And the other website, where we would run the awards from and other seminars that we put on is www.aswpp.com.au

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. And I'll add links to those in the show notes. And I think on the ASWPP website, you've also got some downloads there as well, and eBooks, and you've recently published a book as well, haven't you, which is available on Amazon?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, I've got my secret success, secrets of a professional photographer, and that tells a little bit about my life, as well as it's really a workbook for photographers. It's got some forms in there, some contracts, how to photograph children, babies. What about posing some in social media? It covers everything to do with business. In fact, it's a book of my business, my life and business.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. Well, it links to that as well, so people can jump straight into Amazon and see that. Bernie, it's like I said, it's been a real pleasure. And thanks so much for giving up some of your time and coming on the podcast.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, it's great. And all you photographers out there, just go for it. You know, don't think about it. Just do, that's my advice to you.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. I love it.

Bernie Griffiths: Alright. Thanks. Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Thanks, Bernie. Alrighty. I hope you enjoyed the main part of that interview with Bernie. Now, as I mentioned before I hit, before we started playing this interview, we basically signed off, and Bernie stayed on the line, and we had a little bit more of a chit chat. But I think there's some pretty cool little gold nuggets in here that are worth sharing. So hope you enjoy this next little section as well. Hey, Bernie, that's great. Thank you.

Bernie Griffiths: All right, cool.

Andrew Hellmich: We've got a touch over time, but Thanks, mate. That was that was really great, but it was easy for you as well.

Bernie Griffiths: Oh, yeah. Well, this is what I do most days, and that's just yeah, that's how I spend all my days doing that. And is your background, Andrew, as a TV interviewer?

Andrew Hellmich: No, no, no, I'm a wedding and portrait photographer as well.

Bernie Griffiths: You do it so well. And I did listen to the podcast with Pipsqueak. Is it Pipsqueak? Not Pipsqueak, that female pet photographer?

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, yes. Caitlin McColl from Ragamuffin?

Bernie Griffiths: Ragamuffin. I know it was something like that, was fantastic. I thought you did such a good job.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, thanks.

Bernie Griffiths: And she was fantastic too.

Andrew Hellmich: She's a switched on young, young lady. She's really good.

Andrew Hellmich: I love the way she got into the business and what she did. But you know, in reality, that is the new photographer. You know, there's an old joke is that you may know is, is what makes a good, what makes a professional photographer, a good camera and a working partner, and that's the new photographer, and that's what, there's more and more of nowadays. But that's, that's the way it is, hey.

Andrew Hellmich: It is exactly, yeah. And I do, I mean, honestly believe it's harder now than it's than it's ever been, but it's more work to get the bookings.

Bernie Griffiths: What I'm trying to work out is where it's going. And I'm, I'm trying to put some the odd business model together. One thing for sure is photographers can't spend all this time with post production. So, via another guy, in three weeks, we should be launching a SOS program, which is Simple Outsource Solutions. You know, where you can get your files, 600 files, like with a wedding for $150 the post production done on it.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So is that with overseas workers?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, it's with overseas workers. But even so, we can price it out very cheaply. And the other thing is that I think more and more photographers will be selling online. It's just about getting the right model, the right online shopping cart, and one photographer I came in touch with who does it very well, it was Lisa Perry.

Andrew Hellmich: Is she in Australia?

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, she's in Brisbane. She's L-W-S-A, Perry. And I did some workshops with her newborn, and she's fantastic. And now she doesn't do many selling a week. She only does about one, but her average is over a thousand dollars so and they, that all the selling is done online, but she has a fantastic shopping cart.

Andrew Hellmich: That's good because, I mean, you hear all the Americans talking about getting away from this online selling and trying to go back to face to face.

Bernie Griffiths: I don't think it's, I think it's got to go online, because everything is online.

Andrew Hellmich: I know, but the sales just always, they never seem as good online.

Bernie Griffiths: They never will be. But that's not the point. It's the way things are going. I mean, we've all the diminishing sales. What blew me away was a website called Blue Nile. I think it is bluenile.com An American website that sells diamonds online. And that website is amazing, if you get a chance, and they turn over $400 million a year selling diamonds online.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, that’s good it works.

Bernie Griffiths: And I can understand why, because the website is so easy to work. You know, you choose your diamond. I nearly bought a $1,200 diamond off this website because it just sucked me in. Yeah, so they give you all the information you need about rings. You can pick your diamond so you can click on and how many diamonds you want, what carat, clarity, color, all of that jazz, and select your ring sizes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's so easy and it's so much fun that you'll probably end up buying a ring. But, but, yeah, so photography, I'm sure will go that way. It's just a matter of building the right cart. And another idea we came up with just yesterday in consulting with three photographers, and I was talking about video, one of the problems is you can't show products if you're selling online very well, you can show the odd photo. And that, that, to me, was going to be the key. If you're trying to sell a collage with nine photos, you can show a photo of it. But she said, "Why can't you do a video?" And I went, "But of course you can", because if you look at the shopping channel, TVSN or whatever, which I watch all the time, to watch the way they market, supposing someone went through the products and said, you know, "So our canvas is start this size, as you can see that one on the wall", and then you describe the canvas, you know, "It's Italian canvas that there's a protective coating put on to saturate the dyes in the canvas and also protect it. And it's on a two inch stretcher frame, as you can see on the back, so that means, you know, it won't warp, and it's got a rolled edge on the front", and you can tell them about how exclusive your products are. So I think if you can interact all that and put that on a website, I think it could work very well.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Bernie Griffiths: You know what I mean. So it's only a matter of building the model that works. And that's why Blue Nile, obviously is so successful. The website is fantastic. And so yeah, and I think that's where we'll eventually go. So all the photographers who are working from home, who don't want people coming into the home, can do it that way. So if you want to, you know, if you want to make a lot of lot of money, design and build that and sell it to photographers. Build the model.

Andrew Hellmich: True, true.

Bernie Griffiths: Build the model, and then it's easy, because then all they have to do is plug it in.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Well, someone's got to come up with it.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah. Well, I don't know whether it'll be me, but a lot of other things. I'm also working on a project for a national portrait month.

Andrew Hellmich: So an actual product for it?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, it's not a product. I've always had this in my head for years about doing a national portrait month. So I'm in talks with certain people about it. You know, once a year we highlight professional photography and professional family portrait to get the, you know, to relive or to resurrect family values and to get people to appreciate the value of putting a family portrait on the wall, which I think is diminishing, you know, we have a family portrait on our iPhone.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's ridiculous, isn't it? Crazy.

Bernie Griffiths: So just an awareness of getting all that back, so working on that.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice one. So you sound busy.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, I've got a lot in my head. I always have had, so. I've got the freedom to sort of try and make these things come to a fruition. But the thing with me is I don't think about it too long. I just do it.

Andrew Hellmich: And I think that's a secret to being successful in business, isn't it? You just have to do it.

Bernie Griffiths: Just do it. Just see what happens. So yeah, so that in itself, it was like the book. I had all these thoughts in my head, and I had to write it. And once it was written, then it's out of my head..

Andrew Hellmich: On to the next thing.

Bernie Griffiths: On to the next thing. And I did that with a lot of children's poems. I had a lot of poems on my head, and I got rid of those eventually, I wrote them down, I put a book together, and then they disappeared. And it's just like with my book, I can read my book, and I can't, I don't remember, you know what I mean, because they've gone, it's gone out of my head.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, it's actually happened. It's been done. It's you've moved on to the next thing.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, and I start reading it, and I go, "Gee, that's a good read." And I don't think of it as me, because it's left my head now, so it's become another person.

Andrew Hellmich: What's the name of the children's book, poems?

Bernie Griffiths: It was actually a project to raise funds for myself and also for the Starlight Children's Foundation. So it was "Kids wanted. We're looking for kids to participate in the book, which will help raise funds for the Starlight Children's Foundation. And the book will contain a lot of poems", and you know, that type of thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, become a photography promotion as well.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah. It was, yeah. And I did two versions of this, so we photographed about, I don't know, 60 kids over, over two seasons with it. So that was good.

Andrew Hellmich: I think that there was a few different things like this, wasn't there going around the country?

Bernie Griffiths: Oh, there's heaps and I, one of the major ones I'm doing and this may be hard to believe, one of my clients is in a country town in Victoria, and I went to see her two years ago, and I said, "So what are the problems?" She said, "Well, we're not getting many sittings, and we're not doing many weddings and blah blah blah." Said, "Okay." I said, "Well, what sittings have you done?" And she said, "Well, we've done this, and we did a few farming generations. You know, they were, seemed to be good sales." And I said, "Well, what were they?" And she said, "I don't know." You know, she hadn't got any records. So she dug them out, and she said, "Well, I've got one here, that was 5000, this one was 8000, one was 10 and one was 12." I said, "Hang on. I think we found where the gold is." So I said, "Let's do a book. Let's call it Farming Generations. Let's celebrate the farmers for all the hard work they do, and so on and so on." And so this project now she's photographed nearly 50 families, farming families, and we're about to launch the book before the end of the year. We're going to do a couple of exhibitions as well. So, and the funny thing was, instead of, you know, you think, traditionally, a photographer would be, have a booth or a stand at some sort of place where they could draw business in. Well, they've done the Sheepvention for two years. So the Sheepvention is the biggest sheep thing in the southern hemisphere, up at Hamilton, and so they had a stand in one of the sheds, and they were, had all the photos on display and whatever, and were gathering names for, you know, farmers to photograph. So she goes out, it might be a two hour drive, photographs the farmers. And then we thought it's going to be hard because you're going to have to go back and sell them, you know, on your laptop. But what happened was, the farmers were happy to drive two and a half hours to go to her because they were, you know, be going into the city. So that's all up and happening, and she's still averaging about two and a half thousand dollars.

Andrew Hellmich: So they're buying photos from the portrait sitting. And then what does she do with the book?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, the book is going to be a book that, you know, will, will feature the farmer with a little 200 word write up about, you know, their farm.

Andrew Hellmich: About each farmer, each farming family.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So then did they buy the book? Or does she just sell that in bookshops or online or?

Bernie Griffiths: Well, she can do whatever she wants, but there's no money in the book.

Andrew Hellmich: The money's in the portrait sittings.

Bernie Griffiths: The money's in the portrait sitting. So that's a point. There's no money. There's generally no money in books at all.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay, so she, she does a minimal print run, and then?

Bernie Griffiths: Oh, no. It's print by, its print on order. All books are.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, okay.

Bernie Griffiths: Well, you think of Amazon. You don't think they've got a stock of 5,000 of my books or anything. It's print on demand.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay.

Bernie Griffiths: Someone orders a book, they just print it.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So she can offer her book for sale in Amazon if she wants them and doesn't need to carry stock.

Bernie Griffiths: Well, but she can print on demand anyway, because most people do print on demand.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice.

Bernie Griffiths: Or she can put it on Amazon,

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so she could offer it for sale on her own website. Order the book as an order comes in, and ship it out.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah. Or, like I do, I mean, I've got some books that were in my publisher. I had 200 books printed as part of the package with my publisher, so, but when you get one from Amazon, it's a slightly different size, and they just print it there. So it's print on demand.

Andrew Hellmich: There's no outlay. She's got the, she's done a sale, the sale for the portrait shoot.

Bernie Griffiths: No outlay. So they're by pre-order only. So if 10 people order the book, she gets 10 books printed. The only thing is, of course, she has to spend all that time or someone doing the layout and the design and whatever.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, you can even outsource that. Outsource that too these days.

Bernie Griffiths: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, look, thanks again, Bernie, it's been a real pleasure.

Bernie Griffiths: All right, mate, good on you. Thanks. Andrew, see yah. Bye.