002: Ben Marden – Business, Wedding Photography Pricing, Debt and No Underwear

02: Ben Marden – Business, Wedding Photography Pricing, Debt and No Underwear

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I first met Ben seven or eight years ago at a weekend photography workshop slash seminar hosted by the AIPP in the southern highlands of New South Wales. And at this workshop, new members and Ben was one of them, were asked to introduce themselves in a room full of very talented photographers and most of the newbies, they got up and they were pretty shy, and they had a little word or two to say in front of would have been, what would have been a pretty intimidating crowd, but not Ben, no, no. He actually stood up and he proclaimed his utter disgust for nude photography. "It should be bad. It's bad for society." He went on with it with a full horn rant about his disgust of nude photography. And look, while this was happening, there were whispers and quiet mumblings amongst everyone in the crowd, wondering who this new guy was anyway, it turns out the whole thing was just tongue in cheek, and Ben was just being Ben and having some fun, which was awesome. And I knew right then this guy was not only gutsy, he sure sounded like a fun type of bloke to be around. And he and he certainly is that. So Ben was also a wedding photographer that clung on to shooting with film longer than most other photographers that I know, and I wasn't sure if that was because of his love of the format of film, or his dislike for digital or the fact that he lived on a farm that didn't have any power to run his computers. So we'll find out a little bit about that. So over the next few years, I've met up with Ben occasionally, but I see more of him through Facebook and Instagram than in person. But what I do know about Ben is that he lives an extraordinary lifestyle on his farm property. He's an awesome photographer, and he's definitely someone who walks to the beat of his own drum. Ben, welcome to the first ever interview episode of the photography business exposed podcast.

Ben Marden: Thank you, Andrew, that's a good intro.

Andrew Hellmich: Thanks, mate. Did you like that?

Ben Marden: Yeah, there's a little bit of embellishment there, maybe. But, oh, well.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you remember that? Do you remember that first time getting up in front of the AIPP?

Ben Marden: Yeah, I was terrified, absolutely terrified.

Andrew Hellmich: Really?

Ben Marden: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: There's no way he came off as terrified. I'm thinking this guy is one gutsy dude.

Ben Marden: Oh yeah. Look. I remember looking around the room and thinking, "Oh, there's Graham Munro, and there's so and so." And, you know, my heroes at the time, and just thinking, what I'm trying not to swear here, thinking, "Oh God, what am I going to say?" You know, yeah, and they did that on the spot. It was, there was no planning or anything. It's just yeah, terrible, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I could tell it was off the cuff, and that's why I thought it was so impressive. Mate I was, but I'd already been in the AIPP for a year or two, and my, I was very meek, and I'm thinking, "Man, who is this guy?"

Ben Marden: Well, apparently I was a Mormon, and I was this, and I was that.

Andrew Hellmich: It was very good. It's very good. Mates, how's things on the home? You want to tell us a little bit about where you live and what you actually do.

Ben Marden: Sure, I live near Bega, the place famous for cheese, of course, which is far south coast, New South Wales. And it's actually quite a long way from anywhere. It's about six hours from Sydney, five and a half, six hours from Sydney, two and a half hours to Canberra, Melbourne's about probably seven hours. It's and..

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, sorry, go on. I was just gonna say, and the far as business goes, wedding portraits, both..

Ben Marden: Sure. Wedding portrait, a little bit of commercial work, probably, well, it's changing a little bit, but I'd say at least three quarters of my wedding clients are not from the area. They're from, say, Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra. A lot of people come from Wagga and Riverina, sort of area, and they're having their weddings. I guess I'm almost a destination wedding photographer, but I happen to live in that area. But having said that, I also travel to Canberra very regularly, Victoria, Melbourne, occasionally up to Sydney and sort of Southern Highlands, New South Wales. So I do travel a fair bit for my my work, but I like to keep it within driving distance, catching planes and doing shoots is quite complicated.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, sure. So what percentage would you say portrait, to wedding, to commercial?

Ben Marden: I would say wedding is probably a good 80% of what I do. Portraits, 15%. Commercial will be five.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, cool. And then when you say that you travel out of the area, say to Melbourne or Sydney or to Canberra, are you photographing couples that live in those areas that have found you, or are you, have you got couples that live close to you, that are going to those places to get married?

Ben Marden: A little bit of both, I suppose, as always, you know, in business, the best thing you can have is word of mouth. And after sort of, you know, nearly 12 years now, it builds, and the connections between people and, you know, degrees of separation is quite amazing how it works out, that you know, someone's wedding who was done near to me has a very good friend in Melbourne or something. So it's probably hard to pin that down.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. Sure. Okay. And Ben, the whole premise of this podcast and the website, and this thing that I've started is to, I guess, to speak to photographers that are successful in their business, and to help up and coming photographers, or even those guys that are sort of in the first few years of their business. And when you look back at your or even if you look at yourself right now, so do you consider yourself a successful photographer?

Ben Marden: I do but only probably in the last few years. I mean, I did my very first paid job was in 1998 and I've been full time since, I think, about 2004, so I guess I've been in the game for a little while, but I guess you know, of course, it depends how you define success. And for me, success is living where I want to live, living the lifestyle I want to live, and having a business that's actually, well, you can never be completely under control. But a business that's not totally out of control, meaning you're working 24 hours a day. I mean, you know, sorry, seven days a week and 12-14 hours a day, that's just out of control. And, yeah, so and I guess financially, I have enough money. I have enough.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So, I mean, the way you measure success is probably exactly the way I measure success. You know, I want to have the lifestyle that I want to have and be able to do the things that I want to do, but I don't need a million dollars to do that. So judging by the Instagram photos that I see from you and the Facebook updates and that you are, you are living a great life.

Ben Marden: I'm, look, I'm really lucky. And I saw a great quote the other day. I think it was on Facebook, and it was, "Rich people have a lot of money, but wealthy people have time." And, you know, a lot of people complain they have no money, but really, they've got plenty of money, but they have no time whatsoever. And you know, I love the quote, "You'll never die wishing you worked more." And I just, I like spare time. I don't want to be working seven days a week like I used to.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So do you find now at this stage you're at, and I don't know if it's always been like this, but if you, if you do have some spare time, do you feel that you have to go and sit in front of the computer and edit and or get things ready for competitions, or do some more marketing. Or are you happy just to go for, wander on the farm?

Ben Marden: I do, yeah, go for a wander, but it's something I'm learning to do is to switch off. It's, it is very hard. It's impossible now to be completely up to date. There's always going to be some email to attend to, something to upload to Facebook, something to respond to. It's, you can't completely ever finish in a small business in this day and age. So I am learning to try and take time off, not just when I'm totally exhausted and not feel guilty about.

Andrew Hellmich: That's the hard thing, is it? Not feeling, when you're doing nothing, it's very hard not to feel guilty when you have a small business.

Ben Marden: It's, it is very, very hard. And I think if you want to, you know, do something in the long term, you, you've just got to learn that. Or if you'll burn out, you'll just, and you'll certainly burn out the people around you if you just don't stop talking about it 24/7.

Andrew Hellmich: Which is hard not to do when you're so excited and passionate about it.

Ben Marden: Yeah, it is. It is. Luckily, my partner is a photographer as well, and so we can bounce off each other all the time like I feel very sorry for the non-photographer partners of photographers. We are the most obsessive bunch of people that I've ever come across. Yeah, we're pretty painful to be around, I reckon.

Andrew Hellmich: True, true. So how did, how did you actually get started? So you said you did your first paid shoot back in, did you say '98?

Ben Marden: Yeah, 98. Long story short, my then wife and I spent about seven years traveling around Australia, but, you know, would end up somewhere for quite some time, like we spent four years in Alice Springs, and it's sort of my first page shoot sort of came about in a slightly funny way. I raced motorbikes for, you know, a lot of my life, like since I was about 12, and I was actually practicing for a big two-day desert race, and sort of had the first big crash I'd ever had, and broke my pelvis and my leg and my collarbone and, yeah, I didn't get back on a bike for a long time. So I ended up actually being asked to photograph that race.

Andrew Hellmich: So you obviously were already taking photos. You knew your way around a camera.

Ben Marden: Well, I was it was early days. My interest in photography actually started, I worked on cattle stations near Alice Springs for two years, and that's where the interest started. And of course, back in the days of film, and would go into town sort of, you know, every month or so and get the films developed. And the lab was sort of saying, "Oh, these are, these are really good, you know." And I'm, "Oh, are they?" I didn't even know what they were on about. I remember getting a reprint done once, and they, and I said, "Well, which one would you do?" And they said, "I prefer the composition in that one." And I said, "Oh, what's composition?" And they kind of looked at me, so I don't know. Maybe I've got a natural, like that I'm not sure. But yeah, the interest started on the cattle stations, just sort of photographing daily life and not really setting anything up, not waiting for anything, and because it was whilst working, it had to be really fast. And I guess that's the way I've always sort of shot, is I've never sat on a mountain top for three hours waiting for the light to be perfect. It's as I see things in it, and it's very quick. And I guess I approach my weddings and my portraits, sort of in a similar, sort of a way.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, cool. So, so you did this first page shoot. Then was the motorcycle race, and then what you decided, that's it. "This is it. I found. I found what I want to do. I'm going to start a business."

Ben Marden: Um, probably it was. I was on crutches for about four months trying to photograph motorcycles. So I had to find some sort of job that I could do whilst on crutches. And I'd met another Alice Springs photographer, and they needed someone to shoot their bread and butter work, which was every morning go out really, really early and photograph the hot air balloons, which involved once everyone was in the basket and they couldn't take their own photos, getting their attention with, you know, with all of everything else that's going on, and getting photos, then racing back to the lab. The studio I worked for had their own mini lab. We developed films, print them, and then race back out to where they'd have their breakfast after the flight and sell the photos.

Andrew Hellmich: They're right, okay, that's cool

Ben Marden: And then in the afternoon, repeat the process, but with camel rides, and it just taught me so much about just getting people's attention. The lady that I worked for, April Goodman, moving pictures, she's still a friend, and she's pretty tiny, but she's got a big voice, and learned how to get people's attention when you have to when they're doing something that is scaring them, ie they're in a balloon basket or sitting atop a camel and just, yeah, I learned a lot, and then Alice Springs gave me so many opportunities that would be very hard to get in a city area, work for the newspaper on and off, mostly doing sport work for myself, and then continuing with moving pictures, doing lots of sporting events. Alice Springs has a huge amount of sporting events. Very sporty town. So my early days were mostly, mostly sport. And that taught me a lot about predicting where the action is going to be and getting it, because you often only had one chance to do it.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. So you would have been shooting film then too, and so would have been all a lot of candid stuff as well.

Ben Marden: Yes, yes, it was definitely all film. The newspaper was film, that was black and white films. We'd race back and develop the films in the dark room and scan them and, you know, get them off the print and stuff, everything with Moving Pictures was all film. Yeah, it was totally film. I mean, that was all that was available. So you didn't really think of anything else.

Andrew Hellmich: So did you have to? Do you have to count your shots then, and like, be careful you didn't sort of mess too many up because of the cost? Or you just, you had free reign to just go hell for leather?

Ben Marden: When I was doing anything for Moving Pictures, because we're doing such big sporting events. Of course, we had to be careful. But sort of an interesting story is, when I first started working for the newspaper, I was accustomed to my own personal films lasting me for weeks, and I went to the paper and they'd send me out on a particularly a news item job, and I'd come back with three or four photos, and the editor would say, "Where's all the photos?" And I would say, "Well, are you not happy with what I took?" And they said, "We buy film by the palette load. Just go for it." But I quickly found that once I started just pressing that button without thinking that the quality of the photos just dropped dramatically. Because you sort of, you know, one of the terms you hear is ''spray and pray, you know, just you switch your brain off and just keep pressing that button in the hope something's going to happen, and it doesn't work.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you see some correlation between that, that sort of, that philosophy, or that, that sort of style of shooting to new shooters that come in today with, you know, all digital?

Ben Marden: Absolutely, I probably see it most with, you know, the Uncle Bob. We talk about at the wedding, that every wedding there's some guy, that's usually a guy, who's obviously the keen photographer, and he's got a big camera and all the stuff. And for some reason, they shoot everything on motor drive.

Andrew Hellmich: Things are happening fast at a wedding.

Ben Marden: But why do you need to take birth of 10 frames? It makes no sense, and they're just going to have so many photos to try and trawl through, and look some of the greatest photos ever were taken in the days where you could only take one shot. You know, it would take 30 seconds or a minute or whatever to get ready for the next shot. And I think a lot has been lost in, you know, capturing the decisive moment that gets talked about, that really watching for that, moment and being ready for it and getting the shot that way. And sports photographers have a saying that "If you can see it through the viewfinder, you've already missed the shot."

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, right, because I haven't anticipated it.

Ben Marden: Yeah. And that's anticipation. And even with a motor drive, you know, it's incredible how much that moment was between frames and so yes, to the newer photographers, don't spray and pray, as they say, "Don't just hold it down." Don't try and buy a camera just because it does 10 frames per second. It's not going to make you a better photographer. And there's, there's nothing more depressing than later on, putting them on your computer and seeing a whole screen full of crap.

Andrew Hellmich: Yep. And I totally agree there. I totally agree. Mate, I'm jumping ahead a little bit here. Let me just ask quickly, how many photos do you reckon you would shoot on average at a wedding these days?

Ben Marden: Well, now I'm going to contradict myself.

Andrew Hellmich: Are you going to say 3000?

Ben Marden: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Really?

Ben Marden: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: You do? You shoot that much?

Ben Marden: Yeah, but having said that, it's not like 3000 individual photos. It's, you know, it is a sequence. But because I'm often shooting in a slightly more candid sort of way, is to get the moment. You know, people's expressions can change so quickly, and if you're not completely directing everything, and you know, doing a little countdown, you can take three photos within three seconds. And you know, in one of them, the person looks terrible because they've got their mouth open and they're half blinking or something. And then, you know, in another they just, they look fantastic. And you know, you've captured who they are. So, yeah, it's definitely not 3000 individual photos, and it's not just done in a sort of a random, "I hope this works way." I know exactly what I'm looking for, and it's just a matter of getting, you know, that moment.

Andrew Hellmich: Yep, sure. No, that makes sense. So Ben, let me take you back again. So you've shot these, these motocross events, and you're working with Moving Pictures. So what, when does, when does you know Ben Martin Photography start?

Ben Marden: Well, at first, it's, I guess it started. I started out as Real Life Photography, and in a way, I wouldn't even mind going back to that because it's sort of..

Andrew Hellmich: It's a cool name.

Ben Marden: Yeah, I better trademark it straight away.

Andrew Hellmich: This is going out to the world, mate.

Ben Marden: In a way, I thought that was a little bit restrictive, but it's funny. As my sort of journey has gone along, I've come back to 'give me real', you know, that's, that's what I love the most - is a real moment. You can't make it better no matter how much pre-production or production or post-production, you know, you put into something. A real moment is just amazing. If you get it, if you get it. I'm kind of rambling here. I almost forgot your question.

Andrew Hellmich: I just wanted when Ben Marden Photography actually started?

Ben Marden: Okay, Ben Marden Photography, I guess that really started, I started lived in Alice Springs for four years. I avoided doing weddings. I was scared of them, I'll be completely honest. But after my motorbike crash, I got to know my physiotherapist extremely well. And Grant, pretty much begged me to photograph his wedding and I did that with a contract to say, "I've never done this before."

Andrew Hellmich: Very good and on crutches or not anymore?

Ben Marden: Grant done his work. And, yeah, just sort of loved it. So I guess it was a little bit of an epiphany. You know, Grant and Nicky were extremely happy. I don't look at those photos and absolutely cringe. Which is, which is pretty good. I mean, I could, yeah, certainly, hopefully I've come a long way, I hope.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, well, not many photographers, photographers would look back of their first wedding and not cringe a little bit, that's, that's pretty good.

Ben Marden: Yeah. And then, so this was in 2001 then moved from Alice Springs back to New South Wales, and I guess, I think wasn't until 2002 started up Ben Marden Photography as such, and in my first year, I think I did about five weddings. Then the second year was about 20, and then it just exploded to 45 a year. And that sort of continued for several years.

Andrew Hellmich: So I'm guessing the five were sort of friends, or friends of friends.

Ben Marden: No, no, because, because I'd moved to an area that I had no friends or family, I can't even remember where they came from. To be honest, I can't even remember how I advertised.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay, so what caused the jump from five to 20 to 45, was that word of mouth?

Ben Marden: Yes, and too cheap.

Andrew Hellmich: Too cheap.

Ben Marden: Yeah, obviously people liked what I did, but for what I was offering and the inclusions I was offering, like with, you know, the best albums you could get, etc, I was just not charging enough money. So I thought I was very clever, going to a wedding fair up in Canberra and booking 15 weddings. You know, people love me, wow! And then, as sort of time goes on, all of a sudden I realize I haven't charged enough. And when these people wanted their best albums you could get, I couldn't afford to pay for the albums.

Andrew Hellmich: Really? I see you are that cheap?

Ben Marden: Yeah. Well, yes, yes.

Andrew Hellmich: After you get living expenses and travel and yeah.

Ben Marden: Yeah, I had no idea. I once sat down with Anna Blackman, who's still a good friend of mine, a photographer in the Wollongong area, and we had a big chat all about pricing and pricing points, you know, and what to charge for this and what to charge for that. So I took all that away. And the problem was, when Anna was talking about, let's say, a package ads, I don't know, $3,000, the album she were using was using was costing $200, I was using albums costing $800 and still shooting film when a lot of people were using digital. So there just was not enough profit there. The cost of goods was way too high, and the mistakes I made in those first couple of years where, you know, I jumped from 20 to 45 weddings a year. And yes, lots of money was coming in. Turnover was great. I had no idea what I was doing, so plenty of money coming in. So of course, I spent, spent lots of money on stuff, but then at the end of the day, I was actually possibly even going backwards, possibly losing money. But it was, it was only barely profitable, and that was simply the mistake I made in pricing.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So how far down the track were you before you realized there was an issue? Was that after this sort of third year, or this 45 weddings?

Ben Marden: That was probably after about four years or so, I realized what I'd done, and I reckon it took me close to four or five years to dig myself out of the hole that I dug. At one stage I owed my lab over $10,000 and you know, I was spending over $1,000 a month on film. I was spending 50,000 a year on film processing..

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Ben Marden: Which is a lot of money for a small business, a lot of money. Yeah, so I had this, you know, debts, you know, with my lab and, oh, actually, only my lab, I should say. So, you know, I paid all that back and then found out they'd made a an accounting mistake. I still owed them another $12,000 that back, you know. And of course, while you're paying money back, that's money you don't have to use to run your business. So, really desperate times for many, many years, and I got completely behind on album designs. I was trying to do it all. I was trying to do everything. And, you know, if you don't do an album design, you know, fairly quickly, the couple will only want, you know, the included number of sides in their package. And so if you can at least sell a few extra sides in your package, that might give you the money to at least pay for that, you know, 700 $800 album. But when it's just coming out of what cash flow you have now, and you've got minimal cash flow, as it is, it pretty soon you sort of juggling money everywhere, just trying to, you know, pay your bills.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. So was, was that was photography, the sole means of income for you at that stage?

Ben Marden: It was, I certainly working towards that. I was doing some different part time jobs. I worked at Bega Cheese for two or three years, and they eventually let me go to part time, which was really nice of them. They It was no benefit to them, but they, and that sort of eventually I made the jump to full time. I was with my then wife, so we did have two incomes, but her income was not high. So the business was paying for, you know, a lot of our living expenses, you know, two cars and insurances and mortgage and stuff. So I guess that certainly didn't help. I didn't have much spare money for marketing or anything like that so and I mean, now, sorry..

Andrew Hellmich: I was just gonna say, how close were you to pull in the pin and just saying, "This is ridiculous. We can't do this." Or How close was your ex-wife to saying that, "Ben, you got to stop this."

Ben Marden: Yes, that came up several times with my ex-wife. Like said before, being with a photographer is not a lot of fun, but I, I am a ridiculously determined person. I, without sort of really knowing it, I have very long term goals, and there's very few things in my life I've ever sort of quit on and walked away from and that sort of sounds all nice and romantic, but sometimes you are flogging a dead horse, but having you know said that, and the position I'm in now and the lessons that I learned along the way, I'm glad I didn't give up, but yeah, came very close to definitely, definitely giving up and just going and getting a job.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So, so you go to this meeting with Anna. You have it, you sit down, have a chat. Yet you really investigate your pricing. You see there's some flaws and issues there. So what you come away and just double your prices?

Ben Marden: No, no. I guess I sort of more or less copied Anna's pricing structure. But like I sort of said, unfortunately, I didn't understand what my, you know, cost of goods for each of those different packages needed to be. It was just..

Andrew Hellmich: I see, you didn't actually go, you didn't actually go that deep. So you still, you're still unaware that there was issues.

Ben Marden: Yes, yes, definitely.

Andrew Hellmich: All right. Okay, so when you, when it finally clicks that you've got to do something about this, either your cost of goods or raise your prices. What happens then? Is it overnight? You go right, "Everything's going double, or I'm adding $1,000 every package." What do you do?

Ben Marden: It was something like, not quite overnight, but close to it. And I found that every time you put your prices up for at least a month, no one will book with you. And I don't know whether that's because you're sort of projecting, "Oh my God, I've just doubled my prices", or whatever it may be, but you, I guess I had the confidence. You know, I'd learned a bit more about business at this stage. I never wanted to know business. I never wanted to understand it. But kicking and screaming, I started to realize I have to understand business. I just can't avoid that. You know, it's, you go broke very quickly.

Andrew Hellmich: So is that is the reason for that, because you wanted to just concentrate on photography. That was your love. You didn't want to know about the business. About the business side, or you just weren't interested in business?

Ben Marden: Look, pretty much both, really, you know, I guess you could call it the creative type. And my, like, even doing my bookkeeping, I get dizzy, you know, the numbers just make my head spin. I I don't enjoy that side of it, but I do have to understand it way more than I wanted to. You know, I buried my head in the sand, and that doesn't work.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure

Ben Marden: It just does not work. You know, you can easily be losing money and not even realize it, and it will bite you on the bump, always, sooner or later, it's going to get you, and you cannot avoid it forever. And you know, you can't not do your tax returns and stuff, and you get in a lot of trouble.

Andrew Hellmich: Definitely, definitely. All right, mate, so you take your head out of the sand, you've done your book work, you've done a bit of research. You know your price is going to go up. You don't book a wedding for a month, or it feels like that. What's the turning point?

Ben Marden: Well, I distinctly remember a turning point with one particular couple, and they were a Canberra couple. I met with them in Canberra at the Hyatt, you know, which is a nice, fancy hotel there. And I remember thinking, "If these guys booked me, I know that I'm doing something right." Because I'd put all my pricing up. You know, they were well-educated couple, and they did book. And I thought, "Right, you know, maybe I do have something here and then." So I can't remember exactly, but sometime soon after that, I got an inquiry from a Canberra bride. Again, and as it turned out, her father is the director of the National Portrait Gallery in Canberra, and yet has a huge understanding of photography. And her husband, or her group, her husband to be, was a Scottish wedding photographer of like, 12 years' experience or something. And thinking, "Right?!" And then they came to meet me at my farm. You know, I feel funny calling a farm because I don't have any animals on there, but, you know, it's an old farm.

Andrew Hellmich: But you've got acres, haven't you?

Ben Marden: Yeah, yeah, I've got 100 acres, and it's the beautiful old farm and, you know, the historic house and all that, which I'm slightly fixing up and everything. But anyway, so I've got the, you know, the director of the National Portrait Gallery coming, and her, you know, fiancé, the wedding photographer, and all this. And I got the times wrong. And when they turned up, I'd been out whipper snippering, and I was covered in grass, cowboy and whatnot. And they drove in the front gate, and I just thought, "Oh, shit!"

Andrew Hellmich: That's great.

Ben Marden: You know, hastily made a cup of tea and all that, and brushed myself off. And they booked, you know, and it was sort of at that point, up until then, I didn't really want too many people coming to my place. I was almost embarrassed and sort of at that time. So what's this? Sort of early, early, 2000 a lot of the sort of knowledge, or whatever that was given out to small businesses was try and look like you're a big business. You know, give a front that makes you look that you're bigger than you are. Talk about your team and call yourself 'we' and all this sort of thing. So the micro-business is trying to look like, you know, medium business. And so when you live on off an old farm in an all shearing shed, and, you know, your showers outside, and your toilets outside, and all this sort of stuff. That's not exactly a corporate sort of slick, shiny, medium sized business, you know, call now our operators are standing, you know, it's really, you know, grassroots sort of stuff. And up and then I sort of embrace that, and to stop pretending to be, you know, something that I wasn't. And as I've become more and more honest about who I am, I attract exactly the people that you know have similar values, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: It's really interesting, because I think, it's the tables have totally turned. I think these days, the marketing message is to put the eye back in business, isn't it? To be who you are, and that's, that's how you do, attract the right clients for who you are.

Ben Marden: Definitely. And as far as longevity in business goes, particularly if you're doing things like weddings, because, you know, they're extremely intimate thing, and you, as the photographer, you see more than anyone else. You're there from, you know, 12 months before the wedding, during the whole day, and then after the wedding. So if you don't fit with those people, if you're not the right person for them, it's not going to go well, you know, it's and that, that you can't define that fit that sort of, you know, whether you know the right one for them and vice versa. It just sort of, it just sorts itself out. If you're honest about who you are and confident in who you are.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, that makes sense. Mate, when I when I introduced you earlier in the show, I said that, you know, you clung to film a bit longer than most photographers because you didn't have power on the farm. Now, I know you did have generators, but was, was that really a reason, or did you did you love film?

Ben Marden: Look, it was definitely partly a reason when I first started my business. Look, on my farm, there's an old sheering shed, which is what I live in, and it's been sort of converted into a really nice little cottage. And then there's the old house up on the hill, the old farmhouse and originally lived in the old house for four years, and that had no power, no water, nothing. It's just a bare shell. So my first office, if you want to call it that, was a second hand laptop hooked up to a cable that ran underneath the house with some alligator clamps to a single 12 volt battery hooked up to a single solar panel, you know, that powered my laptop. And if I wanted to print anything, I'd have to go out to the shed and start up this old generator, which blew smoke for about 10 minutes to print something. You know, we'd dial up internet and stuff. And it was, I look back at it now, and it's just, yeah, it's funny, but I guess, you know, that was that determination, I sort of said, I just, I was going to do this, you know, I'd just, I was, I was going to do it, you know, no matter what.

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. Mate, just before we started, or before I hit record, you were saying that you think you've got a pretty good life, sort of work balance now. You don't, you know, you're not chasing your tail. You're not going after 100 weddings a year. You've got that the right number. So just tell me what, what's, what's the secret? What do you, what are you actually doing now, and what makes you so happy about the way you're doing it?

Ben Marden: I didn't actually answer your question on film. Would you like me?

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, sorry, yeah. Sorry.

Ben Marden: No, my fault. I got off topic. So yeah, remind we'll come back.

Andrew Hellmich: For sure.

Ben Marden: Film, look, partly, you know, sounds a bit whatever, but my ex-wife was my second shooter, and she refused to go to digital. So that was sort of one reason. Definitely, yeah, the power situation and lack of knowledge on computers and all that sort of thing. And also the, you know, the introductory cost of digital it's, it's very expensive. If you're set up for film, you've got your four or five, six, I think, I had about six film cameras, which would, you know, kind of last indefinitely, to buy the computers and to buy the hard drives and the memory cards, and, you know, to replace six cameras is a big, big outlay, so it's sort of almost made sense economically, in a short term sort of point of view. And then eventually, you know, I became more and also I had a very particular look that I got from film. And when digital first came out, I could not get that same look from digital. And then as the technology improved, and as my knowledge improved, I could get that look. So I was able to make the transition. I did it slowly, like, you know, I did a combination of film and digital for a little while. But the biggest thing is, I didn't want it to be obvious, what was the wedding on film and what was the film on digital, you know? So that consistency. I believe very much in consistency. I don't think my colors and my look, I suppose, has changed that much in the whole time I've been shooting. I do like vibrant colors, but without being sort of unrealistic. I did go a bit crazy when I first got to digital, and you can start playing with all those little sliders and turning up the saturation a bit too much. And when I found the vignette tool, everything got a vignette.

Andrew Hellmich: Was like looking through a toilet roll, was it?

Ben Marden: Yeah. That's too much. I look back at cringe. But vignettes, and I probably did that the tilt thing, you know, the Dutch tilt. I did that for about 2.5 weddings. And I look at those weddings and just think, "Oh, I'm so, so sorry."

Andrew Hellmich: That's a worry, isn't it?

Ben Marden: Really, when there's lighthouses and stuff. It just looks quickly.

Andrew Hellmich: That was, that was trendy for a while.

Ben Marden: I've never really followed the trends too much. Oh, the tilt. Oh the artistic tilt, the Dutch tilt, the whatever. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I know. I actually booked a wedding. Uh, booked a wedding at some stage back there, when a mother came with her bride, and she said we looked at another photographer and everything slanted. Why is that?

Ben Marden: And there's no good answer.

Andrew Hellmich: No, I quickly put away my album that had all the slanty photos and grabbed one that had straight photos and said, "Yeah, have a look at my work."

Ben Marden: It makes me wonder what's going to happen with the current trends of you know, today, are people going to look back and think, "What was I thinking?" So I always aimed for something to try and be as timeless as possible, contemporary, but timeless. You know, I either do color or black and white. If it's black and white, it's just black and white. You know, it's not sepia, it's nothing like, that's not blue toned or warm toned or anything. It's just black and white. Because I hope that my couples will look back at their albums in 10,15, 20 years, and I mean, the fashions will change, of course. But having said that not a lot of my couples dress in whatever is the coolest fashion today on all the blogs, you know, they do tend to go for something a little bit more sort of classic and timeless.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah. So you would say that's your style, then the way you're shooting. So did you did that just develop naturally? Or did you? Did you sit down one day and say, I want my style to be vibrant colors and black and white with no tones?

Ben Marden: It's, it's probably the way I see the world. I've worn the same brand of sunglasses. They're Serengeti. They're made in Italy. They're glass lenses. They're beautiful. They've got a slight sort of yellow tinge to them only slight. And they get, you know, darker when it when it's really bright. And I've worn that same brand of sunglasses for about 20 years now. And so that's the way I see the world is it's slightly, it's more, you know, more, more contrasty, more saturated, and it's a little bit warm, and particularly when I'm happy, the world is like Technicolor. "Wow! This looks awesome. The sky so blue, and the grass is so green." And that's the way I see the world, you know. So it's just what I naturally like to look at. And so I guess I've resisted the, you know, I mean, in my time, I've seen sepia come and go. I've seen spot coloring come and still hasn't quite died, unfortunately. And dark and moody's come and gone, and grungy and, you know, and then what are we into now? We're into vintage tones and, you know, I don't even know all that the correct labels for all the fads that have come and gone. And it just date things. And the fads are getting shorter and shorter and shorter. Some of them are down to two months now, you know. And you think, "Oh, this poor couple. You know, the photographers made them stand there looking bored with a red balloon in one hand and a vintage bicycle in the background and spot coloring." And, you know, every trend all wrapped into one and a random bubble gum machine stuck in a tree or something. And you just think this poor couple is going to hate these photos in a few years, you know?

Andrew Hellmich: And I love, I love the picture that you're painting. I mean, when you when you talk, I just see it in my mind's eye, just clear as day. And the other shot that I really hate is, well, it's not my style anyway. I shouldn't say I hate it, but the couple of the bridal party standing their arms down by their side, and they're chopped off at sort of just above chest height, and looking glum and unhappy.

Ben Marden: Look, yeah, I've I tried that once, and I went, "This is crazy." And a bride of mine, when I first met her, told me that I think the saddest story, she said, a work colleague of hers brought in her proof album. And this, this friend of hers is bright, bubbly. Never stops laughing, always joking. And then, before she handed over the proof album, she said to, you know, all the girls are gathered around, you know, so keen to see these photos, she said to them all, she said, "Oh, by the way, the photographer told me not to smile."

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, wow.

Ben Marden: So her whole wedding album is going to be her doing that glum thing, because that was trendy and cool at, you know, that week, that month, that six month period, and it doesn't capture her at all. And I think that's just a tragedy.

Andrew Hellmich: That is, that's, my, that is sad. That's a sad story.

Ben Marden: It's, it's terrible, and so, I guess, and I think getting a bit controversial here, but I think photographers have to be careful. They're going to extreme lengths now to try and sort of outdo each other, but at the same time, they all end up looking exactly the same. And it's kind of a bit like you were saying with the mother of the bride saying, "Why are all the photos tilted?" The general public is more and more looking at what, you know, the real cool kids are doing, and going, "What is this? You know, it's just, it's so weird. Like, we just want our wedding day photographs, and we want to see some photos of grandma. It doesn't have to be artistic. We just want some photos of our family and stuff", and and I think photographers are really, you know, it's only my opinion, but they're almost treating some of their bride and grooms or their portrait couples or subjects, or whatever it may be, as just like photographic fodder for them to, you know, achieve their photo that they've got in mind to try and outdo their other photographer friends in, you know, in blog land and the customer, the client, is kind of being forgotten. Does that make any sense?

Andrew Hellmich: Made totally and I, actually, I feel the same way. I mean, it came to light to me when I actually went to a wedding as a guest, and then you look back and you think, I just want to see photos of people, I don't care so much about, I mean, I still want to see the details, but it's the people and interactions that I want to see and that they're the things that stick in my mind. And I thought it was because I was getting older, but maybe it's just the way I see things, too. And you know, and I know family, family's important to me. And I do want to see the people in the shots, and if they're happy and smiling and laughing, they're the shots I want to see.

Ben Marden: Look, I totally agree, and particularly if that is the way the people are, you know, I as little as possible want to sort of subject the people that I photograph to my ideas, you know, because then it's limited, whereas, if I'm open to them and wanting to capture who they are, that's infinite. And, you know, people say lots of lovely things. You know, people say, "Oh, you are so creative?" I actually don't consider myself to be that creative, but I'm a very good observer, and I have, you know, very quick reflexes and stuff, so that that's where I think my skill, or whatever, I feel a bit uncomfortable saying that, lies. And therefore, because I do that, I'm capturing as much as possible people who they really are. And I think that's the best thing we can do, rather than come up with some elaborate scheme with, you know, props and all this sort of stuff. And it's, it's just all a bit silly, I personally think.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. It's really good to hear thoughts there, but, and to me speaking 100% total sense. But, you know, another photographer I talk to next week will have a totally different view, which is pretty cool too. You know, it's, it's horses for courses, isn't it?

Ben Marden: Absolutely, and that's fine. My, I guess my only sort of proviso I'd put there would be, as long as that photographer is clearly giving people the opportunity to see exactly what they do, you know, not just the 20 best wedding you know, I'm very much focusing on weddings here, but not just their 20 best wedding photos ever. You've got to show, and not just six photos from every wedding that's all very artistic and stuff. But, you know, showing 50 to 100 photos or more from every wedding they do, every wedding, not just the, you know, the really glamorous couple in the beautiful location with the perfect light. Every single wedding they shoot, and a really good range of photos to show this is what I do. And hopefully they're not the photographer that follows trends so closely that, you know, a couple books them 12 months in advance, and they're on to trend number two or three by the time their wedding comes around. And I hope the couple don't look back and say, "Well, we booked you because we like that, not what you're doing now", you know, which is totally different, because the trends have all changed. So yeah, that's my only sort of yeah warning, I'd say.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, I agree. I agree. Mate, I want to be conscious of your time. And so what I want to do, if we can, I'm going to take you into a segment I've got set up, which is 10 quick questions with 10 quick answers, which I know you're going to struggle with, given 10 quick answers. And I did, like I said, I want to be conscious of your time, because I know you've got a special little segment for us as well, for the members of the site. A couple of extra little tips there. So are you ready for these 10 quick questions?

Ben Marden: All right, let's go.

Andrew Hellmich: 10 quick questions. 10 quick answers, 3-2-1, go. Canon or Nikon?

Ben Marden: Canon

Andrew Hellmich: First ever camera?

Ben Marden: Canon EOS 500 film

Andrew Hellmich: Back in the day, favorite lens today, and why?

Ben Marden: Probably 50 mil, just because it's so simple, it's unobtrusive. It's not doing anything wacky with sort of expanding or compressing perspective. And, you know, beautiful depth of field.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. What? So what aperture on the 50?

Ben Marden: Usually f2, I'm getting brave and using 1.4 a bit more now, but it's, it can be hard to get it.

Andrew Hellmich: I agree that's a 1.4 lens, but you don't always shoot it wide open?

Ben Marden: Correct

Andrew Hellmich: Yep. JPEG or RAW?

Ben Marden: Uh, RAW.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. Always?

Ben Marden: Yeah, yeah always.

Andrew Hellmich: What do you reckon was the biggest breakthrough in your business. When did you realize? "Yeah, I'm a wedding photographer."

Ben Marden: I don't think there was ever one point, I take time to grow confident in something. And it took time.

Andrew Hellmich: Yep, cool. If you had to start over today with exactly the same knowledge that you've got right now, what would you do different?

Ben Marden: I would, if I was starting from today, I would shoot my first 10 weddings for free to see if this is what I really wanted to do, to try and get an idea of what my style was. And then I would charge the price that I needed to charge from there on.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool

Ben Marden: Make, make those first 10 couples fully aware that this is what my pricing will be after you know for wedding number 11.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool, good. One good tip. What software do you use for your batching, editing, renaming, renumbering?

Ben Marden: Okay, I'm pretty simple on software. I use Photo Mechanic just for my culling.

Andrew Hellmich: Woo hoo. I thought everyone was going to say something else, that's what I use.

Ben Marden: It's great. It's really quick. It's good.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I agree.

Ben Marden: And because you're editing in rather than editing out, it's a very different mindset. You don't feel like, "Oh, I've lost that." You're just saying "I like that one, I like that one, I like that one."

Andrew Hellmich: Oh no, I still edit out using Photo Mechanic. Yeah, that's cool. But I thought everyone was going to say Lightrooms.

Ben Marden: That's awesome. And then for everything else, I just use Lightroom. I actually don't know how to use Photoshop. To me. I don't enjoy that, you know? And I just outsource if I need something removed or whatever. But it makes me work harder at the time, rather than just thinking, "Oh, I can just get rid of that in Photoshop", you know? It's it makes you shoot better if you don't start thinking that.

Andrew Hellmich: No, that's awesome and interesting. That's really cool. I'm glad I'm asking these questions. What's, what's your favorite piece of technology? I know you said you don't use a lot. It could be hard or software.

Ben Marden: Piece of technology, the internet works.

Andrew Hellmich: Are you still running on a generator?

Ben Marden: I do have solar and a generator, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. So you got no street power? You have that as well?

Ben Marden: No, there isn't. It's just not available where I live.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome, mate. That's a farm I've ever heard. Where, this is a tough one, where do you reckon you see wedding and portrait photography in three to five years, for you?

Ben Marden: For me?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Ben Marden: What I, I'm gonna have to include sort of, you know, the world in this. I'm seeing, I hope it's not just wishful thinking, but I'm seeing a turnaround in the general public's attitude. When digital came out, and the GFC, and all that kind of happened all at once, and it sort of gave everyone almost like an excuse to not spend money on getting, you know, a proper wedding photographer, and that's gone off on for enough years now that there's, there's just so many horror stories floating around about, "Oh my God, we've got our friend, our cousin, our dog walker, whatever to photograph our wedding." And, you know, it's pretty bad that people are realizing, again, that, you know, it's, it's just not the camera or whatever that makes you being able to be a good photographer in general. And I think what's happened very much in the professional era is there is no, there's no mediocre for professional photographers anymore. There's basically either new photographers and those who are experienced. And I don't know how the new ones will ever make the transition to more experienced because of their pricing structures and that sort of thing, but I see a growing appreciation for really, really good photography and I hope that works for me.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm sure, I'm sure it will mate. Question number 10, I'm actually, I'm gonna stick an extra one here. But question 10, most embarrassing photography moment or stuff up, if you happy to share it.

Ben Marden: I can, I can happily. I just have to happily, can say I have no bridezilla stories. I don't know. You know, I don't know. You know, I don't attract that sort of, that sort of person. Most embarrassing stuff was, for a long time, I used to wear no underwear. You can see where this is going.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, my God.

Ben Marden: I mean, if anyone, if you know, it's not something I said talk about, but it's like, you know, I don't know, it's sort of create, stifled my creativity, or something. I don't know. And of course, I split my pants. So it wasn't even just the bum crack that split the groin area. And that was sort of, you know, mid midway through the location.

Andrew Hellmich: What did you do? Grab a gaffer tape or what?

Ben Marden: I quickly grabbed my if I use an assistant, I have a bum bag that's been nicknamed the pregnancy pack, that makes you feel like you're pregnant. I got that back off them. Just really careful with squatting and kneeling and stuff.

Andrew Hellmich: If I never do another interview and this whole thing fails, I'll still be happy that I did this one with you. That's awesome.

Ben Marden: My tip is wear underwear. I actually now take spare pants to a wedding, spare shirt.

Andrew Hellmich: Not spare undies but spare pants.

Ben Marden: Just below, always, always wearing.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. I'm not even going to bother with question 11. That was unreal. If people want to say thanks for doing this, and get in touch or have a look at your work. Where can they do that?

Ben Marden: My website's just benmarden.com.au. That's b-e-n, m-a-r-d-e-n.com.au, yeah. And they can send me an email or whatever. Or Facebook is just Ben Marden Photography on Facebook. I love Facebook. It's awesome.

Andrew Hellmich: Cool. That's unreal, mate. And I might even put a link in the show notes to your Instagram feed as well, if you don't mind. And yeah, people can jump on there and follow you as well. Sure, it's always interesting seeing your photos. I enjoy them.

Ben Marden: Okay

Andrew Hellmich: Even your six weigh stops on the way, on the way south last week.

Ben Marden: I really like weighing outdoors. I do. I just do. If I have the choice between stopping at a service station or a nice paddock somewhere, I'll always take the paddock. Always.

Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. Mate, thanks again for your time. It’s been absolutely fantastic chatting to you for this part.

Ben Marden: Absolute pleasure, yeah.

 
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