472: Philip Warren – Everything you need for profitable Christmas mini sessions

472: Philip Warren – Everything you need for profitable Christmas mini sessions

 

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest was featured in Episode 352 of the podcast where he shared "How to run profitable Christmas mini sessions." He's a successful wedding photographer, but realized there was an opportunity to generate a boost in income after creating some beautiful Christmas themed photos for his family. That was back then. Two years ago, he was booking enough shoots to make this period of mini sessions an important part of his business. Now, we had a recent exchange of messages, and he told me, lots have changed business-wise since the last interview, all for the good. And he says it's been an incredible two years. He went on to say, "Last year I absolutely smashed it on my Christmas minis. I shot over 110 sessions, and I made over 12,000 pounds, as well, as leading to other work as well." I'm talking about Philip Warren from Wales in the UK, and I'm rapt to have him back with us now, Philip, welcome back, mate.

Philip Warren: Thank you very much. It's good to be back.

Andrew Hellmich: I want to dive in and start asking your questions straight away. But I've got to share with the listener. You know, we've got our cameras running, and here you pop up on my screen with this incredible backdrop. It looks like super modern, there's a beautiful wall, like looks like a half wall behind you that says "Loft on there," and it just looks super fancy. You've got these bookshelves, what looks like bookshelves, artwork on the wall, plants, sofas like It looks like an amazing space. I asked you about it. Then you turn the camera, pan it around to this incredible studio space. I'm like, "Holy crap. This isn't a photographer working from home anymore. This looks like serious stuff." Has all this happened in the last two years?

Philip Warren: Yes, it has. I mean, I think some people might call me crazy for opening the studio during a pandemic. But I think for me, it was a case of, I saw the opportunity and I thought, "Well, this was go for it." So, yeah, I'm not sure if I mentioned last time I was a product designer, so I used to work in design consultancies and kind of really cool working spaces. So a lot of where I'm sat is, kind of taken little snippets of where I've been and my journey as a designer before becoming a photographer. So, it's all about the experience for me. You know, it's about coming in, having a nice place to be, making the clients feel comfortable. And yeah, ultimately, hopefully they spend some money as well because they like the experience as well as being kind of with me, maybe. So, yeah, it's perfect situation. It's bit of an odd building, so I think the because of that, the rent was relatively low. It's walking distance from my house. My kids go to school on the same street.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Philip Warren: So it's kind of, it is a kind of a perfect situation, I guess.

Andrew Hellmich: The first thought that came to my head when you popped up, was architecturally designed, or interior designed, very modern library type looking space, like it looks ultra, looks fantastic. I mean, it's a credit to you.

Philip Warren: Yeah, it's um.. I appreciate it. I mean, it's straight out of IKEA. So, like, everything in there is IKEA, literally. But the way I designed it, because it's just a large open space, I think it's like 80 meters squared. I think it's around about that sort of area. I needed it to be flexible, because it wasn't only for shooting. Needed it for the clients to come in and sit down. So that was the first kind of protocol. What I kind of had left over was more for the studio setup so I could manage it, so nothing's fixed down, so everything can be slide, you know, slide around and moved and just put into place wherever I needed it to be. So it's, it's pretty flexible.

Andrew Hellmich: Do you get the same response from clients as I've given you, like when they walk in? Are they blown away?

Philip Warren: Yeah. Well, in fact, it's even more because the entrance to this place is on a side door. This little, sort of an assuming door, and you come in through like a small corridor, and then up some metal steps. And it's really kind of industrial steps that you lead up to, and then you turn the corner behind me, and then they just walk into the space, and it's like, "Yeah, I wasn't expecting that." It's kind of kind of like my photography in a way. It was like an assuming, you know, it's kind of low key, but then you get something cool out of it. So in some, some respects.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so cool.

Philip Warren: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: And I imagine when they walk in there, they're also thinking at the same time, "Okay, we're going to be spending some money here."

Philip Warren: No, no, no, that was key. So, so it didn't feel, it didn't. Yes, it does look good, but it doesn't make you feel like, you know, if you go to a really fancy restaurant and you're afraid to kind of hit your cutlery on the plate. It doesn't feel pretentious. It doesn't feel like it's out of anyone's price range. So that was key for me. It didn't need to be to the point where it was like, "Hang on, we can't afford this guy," or "He's clearly getting paid too much money." So, you know, there's a, I think there's a limit there. That's why IKEA comes in great. I think it doesn't, it just fits in that middle range of being kind of sharp and modern, but without too much money.

Andrew Hellmich: At the very least, they're going to know that they're dealing with a serious, like a proper photographer.

Philip Warren: Yes, yes, yeah. I mean, they get that from the get go to be honest, you know, from the minute they contact me, they're aware of pricing and the packages and so on, and how I do things. And one of the first things is a meeting. You know, I want to talk to people, and I feel I'm pretty good at talking to people now. It's kind of, it's one of my things that I, there was a strength. So I wanted to come in, have the experience, go through everything, and that, that's kind of the key to most things I do, really, is the experience. Because I just ultimately wanted to have a good time as well. You know, the photographs are almost like a byproduct of it all, because if they comfortable, then they like being with me, they like the experience, then the photographs a lot easier. And that's kind of my mentality for all my shoots really.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it.

Philip Warren: Be a wedding or kind of the studio, so. .

Andrew Hellmich: I know, and I can totally understand that being a wedding photographer, you are probably 100% booked out under the pump right now as weddings that come back online, but you opened the studio during COVID when I'm presuming that weddings just weren't happening in Wales, like they weren't happening here, certainly not to the same extent they are now. Why open a studio then? And what was going so well in the business that you thought, "Okay, this is a good time to open a studio."

Philip Warren: That's kind of a multi-pronged answer, really. Because first of all, if you look at what I was doing with the mini sessions and the more commercial sites. So the loft, which is the branding on the background. That's for my commercial brand. So one of the reasons for having this was I was starting to notice the commercial side of things, whether it was food photography or interiors picking up, which also led to doing things like headshots and more commercial type stuff. So having that was kind of key to this place, because it allowed me to have another avenue of work which was already there, but it was, you know, as a wedding photographer, you kind of always told to be the go to wedding photographer. You need to be the person which thinks of you as a wedding photographer. So it was difficult for me to say on my social media to put food photography in with that people get a little bit confused, like, what type of photographer are you? So having a second brand then allowed me to apply it to that, but also with the weddings, then people could come in. You know, I did book in 2020. I booked 32 weddings during lockdown, which, you know, for those people fair play, they took a bit of a risk, I guess, because they weren't sure on the future, and then it just sort of took off. Because if I the way I look today, my rent is relatively low. So I pay 400 pound a month rent on this place, which is, you know, if you, if you look over a course of years, 4800. I knew that I could make that just on mini sessions.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Are mini sessions, only Christmas, or are they all year round now?

Philip Warren: Yeah, only Christmas.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, so you can pay the rent on the premises for the whole year from your mini sessions at Christmas.

Philip Warren: That's right, yes, yeah. So that's the way I approached it.

Andrew Hellmich: So it's low risk.

Philip Warren: So the way it was kind of trending up, I could do my mini sessions at Christmas and pay for the entire year.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic.

Philip Warren: It turned out in like, 2020 you know, end of 2020 when I done my Christmas sessions, I paid for the next three years.

Andrew Hellmich: Of rent.

Philip Warren: Basically, so because I made over 12,000 pound during that session, so, so it kind of hit home, and that was only six months after I was in here. So I got in around about May, the owner incredible. I, you know, take my hat off, because he gave me four, five months rent free at the start, because I think he kind of saw what I was doing in here, because I put a decent amount of money in for it. Then he was like, "Look, you can't make any business at the moment. I'd rather you be here. I want you as a tenant. Make sure you do everything you can pay me when work picks up." So..

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Philip Warren: So incredible, absolutely incredible. So, so my lease effectively started in September. By Christmas, I run my mini sessions, and kind of paid for the year already. So, so everything else on top of that is kind of yeah, cherry on the top, basically. So if I do like album sales. So the way I structure my album sales now, which has never been a big part of my business, because I've never been able to do it, that all adds into the kind of the profit of the place. So it's, yes, I know it's kind of goes back a little bit on what I said on the previous podcast, in terms of using other place, people's spaces, but I've always done things in, like, a low risk fashion, to take a bigger risk. So using someone else's place, and that someone else's, you know, property, allowed you to have a kind of get a little idea on, can I do this? And obviously, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: I remember from last time you were actually, did you, did you lease, or did you use another someone else's shop space and bring clients into their shop, you know, by default?

Philip Warren: Yeah. So basically, I think when we talked, it was in the we were coming up to a round about Christmas time, and I was half in a, like, farm shop, or, you know, they had a cafe in a space. But I was pretty hampered by the times that I could do it. So I actually come into this place for like half of my mini sessions in 2019 so it's kind of like, try before you buy. Because I knew the owner, and I was like, "Look, it's empty. I know you're trying to rent it. Can I have a look at it?" So that already planted the seed on kind of coming in here. And yeah, last that year, I was like, "Yeah, this, even if I just do mini sessions out of it, it's going to able to pay for it." I took a little, little bit of a risk in the cost, but they go not much.

Andrew Hellmich: Not much, not much money.

Philip Warren: No, not much at all. Yeah, but it was more of a case of this building has been split into three. So originally they were trying to rent the entire place as one. So I wasn't sure what the rent of this room and the adjacent room was going to be. So I kind of, I worked at it roughly, and just went for that. So.

Andrew Hellmich: Love it. How did the landlord, how did they know what plans you had as far as design goes? Because it sounds like they really wanted you in there, because they knew how much you were going to put into this as well.

Philip Warren: Yeah, yeah. So the landlord, landlord's daughter runs a business across the street. So we have a, like, a chamber of commerce in the town, which I'm part of and quite active in. So they kind of knew my kind of ethos in terms of the business. You know, everything is going to be like, not high end, but it's going to be done really well, because they've had a personal experience, because I've done, I've shot for them, and so on. So, so they kind of had an idea, but when I started renovating, basically; he kind of popping in just to see how I was doing. And then all of a sudden he's like, "Yeah, this looks awesome." So he was like, yeah, more than willing to then help out. So because I'm helping him by putting money into the property, then he wants me in for longer. So it's kind of like a win-win situation. So I ended up signing a five year lease on the place. So initially it was three years, because that was like how far my weddings were going into the future. Then I just thought, you know what, I've got to look at this pandemic. I'll tack those years onto it and come with a five year lease.

Andrew Hellmich: So I imagine, too, that if he is still trying to lease that when he feels at that time, looking to lease other parts of that building, he would just bring anyone that's slightly interested into your space, they'd go, wow, and it almost resell it for him.

Philip Warren: Yeah, it is exactly. And I think especially this space is a bit of an odd space. It's got like, two windows. There's no central heat in it's freezing cold here. So if anyone comes in here, it's kind of like, and they remember what it was like before. They were like, "Yeah, we can do anything with any of these rooms now." So it gives them hope as well. And the other two spaces have been rented out since then as well. So..

Andrew Hellmich: Right. I'm not surprised.

Philip Warren: Yeah, unfortunately, the one downstairs should have been a bridal shop, so that's a bit of a downside, and a hairdresser's got in instead against them. But yeah, the bridal shop opened up just up the street instead. So we still have a good relationship, but it would have been kind of a pretty good situation.

Andrew Hellmich: Not too bad. There's so many things I want to ask you. I know we're going to get the mini sessions, but..

Philip Warren: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: When you sign a five year lease, do you also take an option for a further three or five years when you take that lease?

Philip Warren: Yeah, I think I get an option at the end to renew at the same length. Or I think it's definitely three, but it could be on the same length. So that's been a conversation because we, you know, we're halfway through, near enough that that's been a conversation I've had recently, because there's some work I'd like to do here on top of what I've done. So, hopefully he doesn't have any plans to sell the building, which was my biggest concern, especially with the price of properties at the moment, because it's an easier way of making money. But I think he said "He's just going to pass it on to his daughter and son. "

Andrew Hellmich: Great.

Philip Warren: I don't think she's kicked me out, to be honest, without giving me a heads up, fingers crossed, I'll be in here for a while. So..

Andrew Hellmich: Excellent. Again, before we get into mini sessions, just give us an idea of the town that you're working in. What's the population like? What's the demographic like?

Philip Warren: Yeah, it's, I mean, statistically, it's one of the poorest areas in the UK. It's really underfunded and everything. There's a kind of a dense population squished into a small area. So because I live, what's called in the Valleys, the Valleys South Wales, kind of old mining towns, which obviously caught a large depression after the mining situation when they all finished. So in terms of, like, financial, it's not, it's not a great area, which is kind of always a struggle with, you know, with pricing certain things and running sessions and studio sessions and so on. But also in terms of people's homes, a typical house is a terraced house, is a very small property, so when people talk about, you know, you can make it anywhere, doing like portrait sale, sales and stuff. You need to come and visit where I live. Because, you know, it's not always a case about money. It's a case about space.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Philip Warren: You know, people don't have space on a wall to put a large 40 by 30 print, for instance. So there's, there's not just the financial constraints. There's actually physical constraints as well. So in terms of, you know, there are a few people that would come on and say that, you know, "It doesn't matter where you live", it absolutely does. And I'll stand by that because, you know, I did 106 mini sessions last Christmas. In two years, I've never done a studio session with a family, so that kind of gives you an idea.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're doing mini sessions in the studio, but you haven't done just like a family portrait in the studio.

Philip Warren: Correct, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Or, because they wouldn't buy the photos, or they don't have the money or the space?

Philip Warren: It wouldn't, wouldn't pay, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Both.

Philip Warren: Yeah. Look, don't get me wrong. On flip side, I'm not advertising a huge amount, but they've come in. I've, you know, I've done a couple of 100 sessions in here. You'd think at least one would come back to have a family session, and that's not been the case.

Andrew Hellmich: So you're not doing, you're not doing outdoor family portraits either. So you're just not booking families.

Philip Warren: No, not at all. No.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Philip Warren: So it's a bit of an odd one, but that's just the case that's, you know, a lot of times the product they need for Christmas isn't really something that they're going to be putting on a wall. So they might not value that side of things. So that's why you have to take that mini session a little bit with a pinch of salt sometimes.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Again, so just to be clear for the listener and me, you're not looking for the high end client amongst a lower socio economic area. You're just, you're serving your area the average person in your area.

Philip Warren: Yes, absolutely, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay.

Philip Warren: And that's kind of where I'm at with my weddings as well. Like, I'm, I'm probably middle higher price wise, but in terms of, like, my photography, I think it applies to pretty much a broader spectrum of people in terms of the style and so on. But, yeah, with the mini sessions, I would say, you know, it's sort of for them, it kind of scratches an itch a little bit in terms of, they need something for Christmas, maybe, or they want to mark those Christmases with their kids and or presents and so on. So, so it's all about, you know, the you're looking at an hourly rate, that's what you're looking at at that point. So it has to be a production line, because if you're doing 100 sessions, then you need to be able to productionize something,

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So you're not looking to do big wall portrait upsells. You're just doing mini sessions in a production line format where you get them in, you do the shoot, you get them out,

Philip Warren: Yeah. Because if you look at it, you've got a limited amount of time. So if you had 100 sessions booked, and even if you had 50 and everyone wanted wall art, you'd be spending so much time doing that, that there's going to be things like mistakes. There's going to be delivery issues. There's going to be things which are going to cause you issue, which is ultimately going to affect the bottom line. So for me, it's more of a case of, yeah, fine, if you if you'd like it, but most people don't want that type of thing for Christmas mini sessions, because there's only a certain amount of time you can hang a Christmas photograph on a wall. So it's one of those ones where you kind of have to look at the time scale and work out like how much money you'd like to make per session. So, and also, during those 106, there's a bunch of freebies in there. So there's a few people that I give shoots to for free. They might be suppliers or wedding kind of planners and coordinators that I might that I've got a good relationship with. So they would get a free session. So you have to kind of use it, because everything's set up. Just use it in a way that you can thank someone by giving them the gift of photography.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. So this is for your strategic alliances that you're building as you go. I love that.

Philip Warren: Yeah, but it's just been nice as well. I mean, a lot of photographers forget about just being nice. You know, there's a big ego thing going on at the moment. Just be nice, and hopefully it'll come around and people will just start recommending you. That's where I built my business on, just being nice and helpful. So like, there's not, you know, it's not a case of, if I give them something, they'll give me something back.

Andrew Hellmich: No

Philip Warren: It's the other way around. They've given me something, so it's my turn to repay them. So that's the way I think about it. It's not about like, "Oh, if I get them in for free, they gonna start giving me weddings." You know, that's not about it. It's not about that for me, it's more about the other way around.

Andrew Hellmich: But like, on the other side, if there's a new photographer who doesn't have those alliances yet, or those relationships, they could certainly offer them, couldn't they?

Philip Warren: Absolutely yeah, because if you're at the point where it is productionized, and you've got everything set up and everything's ready, fill in a space that would, you know, be empty. There's no odds to you as a photographer, we're only really losing time. So in that sense, get people in, give them a really good experience. Then all of a sudden they share and everything on social media, and they just, you know, just kind of goes off then. So you do have to pick and choose, you know, people turning nose up the free work. But if you're going to get a decent amount of eyes on your work, then why not? I think, yeah, especially if you do have bookings, because it does start small. You know, mine started in my living room with my kids, and then another family. And then now I'm kind of sitting in an 80 meter squared studio space that looks really cool. So..

Andrew Hellmich: I love it.

Philip Warren: So it does, you know, I guess from an acorn grows a mighty oak. I guess.. Say yes.

Andrew Hellmich: This is I love about your story so much, the fact that you were on the show, you know, for that episode 352. You talked about those first photos of your kids in your living room. And I think we've got..

Philip Warren: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Those photos in the show notes. That's what you use for marketing. And it built from there, like it's so good to see.

Philip Warren: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: I think at the time, you did say that there is potential to use the same format that you were using then, like throughout the year, it doesn't just have to be for Christmas meetings. Have you gone down that road, or are you just sticking to doing these at Christmas?

Philip Warren: I've looked at it, but it's just time. I mean, I mean, like last year, 41 weddings. This year, 64. Next year, already up to 42 weddings. So the chances of doing like a shoot in May, for instance, is kind of zero. So Christmas is kind of like a little bit of a drop off in terms of weddings, typically. So then it is a chance of doing that, didn't happen last year because of restrictions. Everything was kind of like back loaded. So the volume of weddings during the winter months, Christmas just gone, was increased. So it's more of a case of, you have to look at the time, because my bread and butter in terms of the business, are weddings. So it's more of a case of where I can fit it in. But also my wife is now working with me, so she's left work, and she's actually helping me certain things. So it's more of a case of now the mini sessions are going to be paying for her as well as kind of the rent. So yeah, it's all changed, basically, but the method that I kind of figured out, has remained the same. So whilst I'm in a space, this could be picked up and put in somewhere else and run from somewhere else. So it's no different, really.

Andrew Hellmich: What's your wife's name?

Philip Warren: Kirsty, Kirsty.

Andrew Hellmich: And so how's that going having her working in the business with you?

Philip Warren: The honest answer, I mean, she's never going to listen to this. But no..

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely.

Philip Warren: To be fair, to be fair, though, she's only doing a small amount. She's only really picked it up since Christmas because I've got two young ones, two little ones. So she does a lot of the work in terms of the house and the kids to allow me to do this, especially with the volume of weddings, especially. So she's starting to do little things. So I can't throw it in at the deep end. You know, most people know if you're trying to hand things over from yourself that you've done for years, it's quite difficult to leg over the reins. But not just that. It's having her learn the systems that you just take for granted. So anything she does helps me, basically, because it's something I, I'm not doing.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Mate, if Kirsty is anything like Linda, she'll be running the business in no time, and you'll just be the shooter.

Philip Warren: Yeah. She's pretty organized. The things she's got going against her. She's a nurse. She's a trained nurse. So nurses are kind of notorious when it comes to technology. Because they don't have a lot of dealings with basic systems and computers, because they just looking after people and, you know, filling out basic forms. And so the biggest issues she's...

Andrew Hellmich: Be careful. Now you're treading on dangerous ground.

Philip Warren: It's fine. She won't listen to this.

Andrew Hellmich: At least if she stabs you, she can stitch you back up.

Philip Warren: She will. She actually has been listening to a couple of the podcasts because she's picking up Pinterest for me, for example. So she's going to start running that. So one of the ones you've just released, she listened to.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic.

Philip Warren: So, yeah, yes, it's interesting. I mean, it is helping me. And I think probably this Christmas will, she'll help a little bit more, and it'll just keep going like that.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Now, let's dive into these mini sessions. So I guess firstly, when is the best time to start like for the listener that they're thinking about mini sessions, what month do they start preparing for this?

Philip Warren: Yeah, so I'm already booking things for Christmas for my kids. So the earlier for certain things, the better. But I would say you're looking at, I typically release the dates around end of August. And I tend to do a little pre- sale for a week, which is just to get the ball rolling and get the name kind of out there, a little bit. Because sessions, I look to start, ideally sort of second, towards the back end of October. Because with the sessions, you got to give them enough breathing time for other people to see them. To start them in December, it's too late, because by the time other people see it and then want to book, get up to Christmas, and it's kind of no good for anyone. So yeah, the earlier the better, even if you have to sort of drum up some interest to say that, you know, they come in and then other people start tagging other people and sharing and so on.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect. Okay, I mean, in my head, I'm thinking as a male, "Wow", October's early for Christmas. But then, knowing Linda, my wife, she's already starting to do Christmas shopping in January for next Christmas.

Philip Warren: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: So something comes up. She's organized.

Philip Warren: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, perfect.

Philip Warren: Yeah. I get families buying the Christmas outfits now in the January sales ready for the previous, for the next Christmas.

Andrew Hellmich: Right? Unreal, because I know it's coming again.

Philip Warren: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So they're buying these kind of pretty outfits ready for the next year.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, so end of August, we're starting to pre sell some sessions. Okay, I'll put it over to you. Like, how do we do this? Like, how do we maximize our profits if we want to give this a go?

Philip Warren: So for me, it starts with online booking platform. Since we spoke, I've moved everything to Sprout, Sprout Studio now. So the good thing about that, it can, not just handle the booking situation in terms of setting up the calendar and being able to pick the time, because they have that built in now, like Acuity, which I was using previously. It also handles the galleries and the sales and so on. So everything's in one system, and they get a portal. They can fill out questionnaires and so on. So the initial, initial start is, like most things at the moment, through social media. So you put on a link, maybe it's difficult to show the current setup, because if you're going to release it in August, I don't really want a Christmas setup from August onwards. So you're kind of relying on other people's for me, for other people's past experience, to say "You've done a great job in previous years. I'll kind of take a risk knowing that you've done a great job for us and we've seen the quality. So therefore, I'll jump on that.", that kind of pre-sale. That's why you do a pre-sale, because you're not really showing the full Christmas sets that you're going to have ready. So it's a bit of a risk, but then the risk is reduced, because you've given them a little bit of a drop in cost.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Are you saying that people are hesitant to book if they're looking at last year's setup?

Philip Warren: I don't see that, but I could see why people would be because they book in for something. They have no idea what color is going to be, for instance, or..

Andrew Hellmich: Right, I can. But that would be more about repeat clients, wouldn't it? Because they don't want to have the same thing as last year.

Philip Warren: Yes, it is. Yeah, yeah. But those repeat clients are exactly what you want, because they're the ones, then tell other people that, "Oh, this we've done this last year, was awesome." And, you know, they tell other people, and they just spiders out from there. So that initial pre- sale, I tend to send to all my past clients for the first week to say, "Look, this is up and running. You get first pick of the dates because you've come in, you know, in previous years", and I give them a date, then in that email to say it's going to go to the public on this date, so they're already starting to generate a little bit of a buzz about it. So..

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So, I don't want this to be an excuse for someone that wants to try this for the first time, not going ahead, so they could go back to that first interview that we recorded and do exactly what you did and photograph their own kids or their friend's kids in a Christmas setup and use that to promote their mini sessions, couldn't they?

Philip Warren: Yes, definitely. I mean, I think a lot of people you know it's like, it's like weddings. For instance, you're not showing them their wedding photographs when they book, they go and they book an offer back of someone else's wedding photographs, so they already kind of have a preconceived idea that, you know, you're pretty good at this, you know, you can do it. So they already have a bit of confidence in you. And also, like, you know, the social trust, and you know that they see your name quite, you know, whatever. So it's, yes, it sounds like a bit of a risk, but then, you know, the risk is just minor at that point. Because you're setting up a booking form, it's not really, you know, and because I've got that booking form and that web page set up from previous years, I could set it up in 10 minutes. So I've only lost 10 minutes. So it's not really that much of a risk at that point.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure

Philip Warren: The biggest risk is when you're actually buying things. So I've invested a little bit now on my backdrop system, so I use Graceland Designs, which are Australian based, I think.

Andrew Hellmich: I think they are.

Philip Warren: They do have a UK so they have, like, metal frames, and they have printed neoprene covers that you actually pin the frames. So it means that that backdrop is a photo print. You just add some things in front. So it's really easy to set up. But they're not exactly cheap, but it looks so good. So I'll give you some photographs of the previous years so you can see those setups and so on.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect. So those backdrops, you're talking about, the images that are printed on them, are they slightly out of focus, so it looks like you're shooting with a shallow depth of field, or is that, are they sharp?

Philip Warren: No, they're sharp. So you can, you can make that creative decision to blow it out a little bit if you want. So yeah, they sharpen it because of the way that they've been shot. They've been lit in certain ways. So you can pick with some of the backdrops, you can pick your light direction. So if you're shooting with one light, you can match up the shadow on the backdrop with your light position.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. Wow.

Philip Warren: It's so good. It's so good. And you know, because they're neoprene, you just pull them off, fold them up, and store them away for, you know, the next year. So I have three of those now. So at last Christmas, I done three setups, because I kind of jumping around a little bit. But what I did find was, and this is maybe one thing which I've changed. My sets tend to be very similar in size. They kind of, you know, kind of three meter wide. They have a set offset quite often. But what I was finding for the smaller kind of toddlers, you know, little babies that can't sit that properly, they get lost within a large three meter space. So I've got a smaller version, our one and a half meter two meter wide, sorry. So they can be photographed in a kind of a smaller setup. So that's perfect now.

Andrew Hellmich: Are they set up next to each other so you can go from one to the other?

Philip Warren: Yes, yeah. So there's three, so the two opposite each other, and then the third on the kind of adjacent wall then. So it's pretty like for Christmas. It's kind of rammed in in here, but it means that they get free reign. They can come in, they can jump around each set. I want them running back or forth I want to, you know, interact in so it gets their personality into it. And they have a bit of fun, because they can only, you know, some kids, you can only have the attention span for like, 10 or 15 minutes at the most.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Philip Warren: So the more they've got to interact with, more chance I've got some cool photographs.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. So let's go back. So you've emailed your past clients, your email list about these upcoming Christmas sessions. You're trying to get them pre booked. They go into Sprout Studio, but again, the listener could use Acuity or Calendly or whatever they're using, and they book a time. How far apart of the times that you have for the sessions?

Philip Warren: My sessions are every hour, but the session length is half an hour. So that kind of works, perfect for me. Some people turn up, you know, on the time that they've allocated. Some people little bit late, so it's a bit of a wiggle room, plus it gives you a little bit of time to maybe adjust some of the sets, if you've got some unruly kids that come in and destroy the place. But also, if you got, you know, the perfect scenario, you got a kid coming in who's like, seven, eight years old. They just do whatever you tell them, you stand there, sit down, they can be out in 10 minutes. I could import and edit and export that shoot, that session by the time the next session comes in.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Philip Warren: Because of the way I'm shooting and the presets that I'll have set up prior to this mini session started. So, yeah, I try to.. so the hour I it's kind of a little bit of a game, and I try and shoot and edit and export within that time.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it. Philip, let me just take you back to the email you send out, so you haven't got this year's setup done yet, or created or fully sorted. Do you just tell them in the email that, "Hey, this is going to be a brand new setup, and this is what I'm envisioning, or this is what I'm planning."

Philip Warren: Yeah, the beauty of the Graceland setup, they do a release, I think, in June. So I can grab the stills from their store to say, "Look, this is the base of this year's setup." But we will, like, "I think I'll retire one of the setups, which is like a darker one. I'll bring the other one in to replace it, and then buy a new one." So they kind of know that it'll be one brand new setup and maybe one previous years. For instance, that might be the case. Oh, I might just buy two new setups totally, but at least I'll have the backdrop from the online store to be able to show this is the base of it, and then I tend to add some things in front of it, just to give it a bit more depth.

Andrew Hellmich:
Sure. Okay, so what happens next? So let's say, you know, you start to get some bookings, which is great. Do you run a Facebook ad at the same time to start filling up the open spaces?

Philip Warren: I don't think I've even done any Facebook ads on these.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow.

Philip Warren: I think I've done, I've done one giveaway, just a free session or something, you know, free photos. That's fine, but I just find now I'm at the point where, because of the volume that I've shot, it tends to run itself a little bit. But I think if I was doing it from scratch, a couple of, maybe one or two giveaways early. So in that pre-sale, do a pre- sale giveaway. And then one, probably just to say, if you've got the set, set up around. I don't know, first week of October do a giveaway to be the like, or end of September to be the model, like a model call for it. So you can say, "Look, I need someone to come in. I need to shoot this because I need to show everyone now." So you could do with that giveaway as well. That would work quite well. I think that one probably better than the pre-sale. Pre-sales, kind of like most people are booking that because of past experience, I would say.

Andrew Hellmich: And in that pre-sale email to your past clients, are you asking them to share the same email with their friends or the link to the booking page?

Philip Warren: No, because it's to them, because they are past clients. I want to make sure they feel a bit more special that is for them. Then I will say at the kind of the bottom of the email is like, don't forget, this goes out to the public. You know, the wider public on X date. So, kind of like, you know, hurry up and book type of thing. You get first dibs. But also there's, you know, as a monetary value to book in early.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, just before we get into that then. So how do you get new clients, like in the early days, or even now, you've got some, you know, a few days spare, you've got some extra spots open. How do you fill those up?

Philip Warren: It's a good question. I mean, I have no idea is the honest answer I think. I think that it's kind of like my weddings, where every wedding that I do, that I deliver, you know, 20 to 30 photographs the day after. It's the visibility, so I turn around these photographs always within 24 hours. So, you know, those 100 sessions they all had, their photographs within 28, 24 hours, pretty much 90% of the time. So that, so most people get super excited with that. So they get, they shoot, you know, it could be a few hours until they get their photographs, and then they're already on a buzz, and then they just start sharing them, and it just spiders out like that. So that's the way I do it.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that, and I can see how that would work 100%. Let's say I come in for my session with my family. I have a great experience. 24 hours later, Linda has the photos. We love them. Let's say she shares them with our friends. How do they know to get in touch with you? Are they watermarked? Is there a link? Do they say, "Just contact Philip. He does an amazing job."

Philip Warren: Yeah, that's typically what happens is when people share them, I always say, like, look, if you, I think in the Delivery Email, it does say something like, "Please, you know, tag me. I really appreciate it. Just kind of shows that you appreciate it as well, if you, you know, if you like the photographs." But I don't really like make people do anything. It's kind of just make sure it's kind of goes back to being nice. If being really nice, they don't have a good time. They love this. The whole experience of it, you're kind of making it difficult for them not to give you a big kind of thumbs up online. So, and that's just generally me, I'm not trying to be nice and not trying to, you know, that's just the way I am. So they almost feel like, I think, like Gary Vaynerchuk, there's a jab, jab, jab, right hook. So you kind of giving them loads of things in terms of, like, you tell them what you know, things to wear, the setups, the experience. You're giving them all of this and having a good time, and the photographs, then ultimately, good, hopefully, that they almost feel guilty then, I guess that they don't. Then recommend you and promote you a little bit. So..

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. Okay, let me rephrase the question, how does a new client get in touch with you about getting their family photograph for a Christmas session?

Philip Warren: So on my Facebook page, both my loft and my weddings, there'll be a link to a booking form. So each post has, you know how to book, and in that, in that link, is things like pricing, the backdrop setups and so on. So yeah, it's not even a, sometimes they'll send me a message because they've not read the post, which is, you know, often the case with Facebook. So it's a case of just sending them a link, say, "Look all my pricing info, and have the books on this link. Just visit there and just just book-in" ,so..

Andrew Hellmich: And then do everything themselves, then through Sprout and the automatic booking.

Philip Warren: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew Hellmich: Is Instagram as effective as Facebook? Are you getting bookings from Instagram?

Philip Warren: For this one, not so much, because I think I didn't really. I wasn't that pressure over Facebook so much. So I would share Christmas photographs on it. On Instagram. I do get bookings, but I'll do it through stories, and then people message me, but yeah, it's something I'll definitely use a little bit more. But now I have a commercial brand, then I can kind of use that as a platform. And then I can share it to my wedding stuff as well, because I ultimately have a larger following on the wedding. So it's more I use on that, but it just has a now, it's got a home somewhere, you know. So sticking Christmas photographs in the month wedding photographs kind of looks a little weird.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Philip Warren: And people are like, "Oh, that's cool, but it doesn't..

Andrew Hellmich: Really doesn't fit.

Philip Warren: Get it? Yeah, it doesn't fit that well. So, yeah, I mean, just shared and stuff really.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, this is all making total sense, and just with the email. So you send the original email or the initial email to past Christmas mini clients, and they have so long to get in. Do you then send that same email or a similar email to the rest of your email list, like all your wedding clients, other past clients?

 
 
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Andrew Hellmich: It's a testament to you, mate. I love the way you approach business and life. And it's like, it's no wonder you are the success that you are.

Philip Warren: I appreciate that.

Andrew Hellmich: You actually, I know we've gone over time you but do you actually pencil out some time to have some time off? Because, like, did you say 70 weddings or something for the year?

Philip Warren: 65 yeah, 65.

Andrew Hellmich: Incredible

Philip Warren: And the other thing as well. I don't pay for any advertising for them as well. So I don't do any Facebook ads and the Google ads, nothing, is mostly referral on social media. So, yeah, go, go back to, I mean, it is difficult, but then you look at weddings, it is seasonal, you know. So like, for instance, why so I got 65 weddings. There was only four that happened from January to April, you know. So you do have a kind of an up and down time. And also, like my processes, my CRM, my business system, it kind of runs itself to a point, you know. I use like Imagen AI, for instance, for my wedding edits, for majority of it, you know. So there's things which I implement, small things like just to be able to cut down on that time and ultimately stick to a delivery time that I that I set myself and tell my clients as well. Yeah, so the time off thing, I mean, that is difficult, but I don't know. I do have a holiday planned in September, so, so I'll probably need it by then, but it's, I think that's just, you know, that's being self-employed, isn't it?

Andrew Hellmich: It is.

Philip Warren: That's it is running a business yourself, that you have to take the rough then smooth a little bit.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. I agree. I agree. And look, just to finish off, I know that it was 7am and we started recording for you in the UK. So you you've started early today. What's on the cards for the rest of the day for you?

Philip Warren: So I've got some editing to do. I got two weddings to finish, but I've also got a commercial shoot this afternoon. So and it's more next week is my, my biggest week. So I have, like, I think it's six weddings in 11 days, plus a couple of commercial shoots. So, like, my, basically, I have a an engagement shoot Monday, wedding Tuesday, commercial shoot Wednesday, and then it's three weddings in the row then. So that's my week next week. So interesting times, interesting times.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm glad we recorded this week while you're still awake.

Philip Warren: Yeah, so, so like, when he said about recording early, I was like, "It's fine." I've got kids. I'm gonna be at work in anyways, it makes no difference to me.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, Philip, I'm so glad we had a chance to talk again.

Philip Warren: Oh, my pleasure.

Andrew Hellmich: You're so generous with your time, your information, I'm going to add links, and like you said, photos to the show notes to accompany the audio. Is there any one place that you think the listeners should go to learn more about you? Or two places like what?

Philip Warren: Yeah, I think my Instagram is probably the best place. I have two Instagram accounts, obviously, for my weddings and my commercial stuff. My commercial Instagram is a little bit lacking in terms of, I've not had time to post much on it, kind of on purpose, almost, because I didn't really want to promote too much work to get more work. So, yeah, my Instagram for my awareness is at philwarrenphoto. And then my commercial work is loftstudiouk. I'll give you all the links for everything.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, nice. I'll add links to those and everywhere else that listener can find you online, mate.

Philip Warren: Obviously, I'm part of the members group and everything, so if anyone wants to ask me any questions on anything at all, more than happy to help, as you can tell.

Andrew Hellmich: I'm going to really encourage listeners to ask you questions there, instead of DMing and PMing you and sending you..

Philip Warren: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Because..

Philip Warren: Yeah. Look, I guess that might answer questions for other people then, I'm totally honest.

Andrew Hellmich: Exactly

Philip Warren: So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Philip, may you have a fantastic rest of the day. Hope you survive next week and really looking forward to releasing this one when it goes live. Thanks again.

Philip Warren: I appreciate that. Thanks, Andrew.