348: Steve Saporito – How to excite and delight your portrait clients to better sales

348: Steve Saporito – How to excite and delight your portrait clients to better sales

Andrew Hellmich:
Today's guest has appeared on this podcast a number of times. I used to introduce him as "The Doctor of Portrait Photography success." He's a photography business coach who doesn't pull punches, isn't afraid to push and challenge you, to the point of tears - as he tears down your limiting beliefs and starts rebuilding your business from the ground up. Based in Australia and with clients all round the world - his specialty is portrait photography studios. And his focus is getting you to create artwork that excites your clients, giving you more time to enjoy your life and making more money with your photography. He's owned and run a successful studio himself and he's assisted hundreds of other studio owners to do the same. I'm talking about Steve Saporito and I'm rapt to have him with us now. Steve, welcome.

Steve Saporito:
Hey Andrew, how are you?

Andrew Hellmich:
I'm good man. I'm good. You're a bit under the weather mate. I've got to say massive thanks for coming on and doing this in the state you're in mate said thank you and you're back in Australia back in Australia.

Steve Saporito:
I'm back for, I'm actually on the ground for about six weeks, which is really awesome for me anyway.

Andrew Hellmich:
And so most of your year is traveling around the world or are you mainly based here in Australia?

Steve Saporito:
Well, this is where home is. Obviously Australia is home and it's where my kids are, but most of what I do seems to be us, UK and Europe easily and and France really. So I've got sort of clients all over the place, but I'm running workshops and just helping people build studios across these nations.

Andrew Hellmich:
No. So do you generally go into a brand new studio and advise someone on how to set it up or do you go into someone's studio that isn't working or that is working and you want to make it better?

Steve Saporito:
Both. In most cases, the majority of photographers don't have a studio. And so when they come to a workshop or they start on the membership, it just builds them the confidence to then get some type of studio, whether they're building something on their own property or sometimes they are leasing a commercial property. In the case of the UK recently I went and did a a course in July and this last September trip that I did, I went and visited four or five studios that people then had the confidence to then either sign leases for or you know, they've refitted uh, an area in their home to dedicate as a studio.

Andrew Hellmich:
When you say the word studio, do you mean a space to shoot or a space to sell?

Steve Saporito:
Oh wow. My, my definition is a place just to sell or to have a business. So it's the part that makes the money. So some people, because they love shooting outdoors, don't necessarily want to have a shooting space. They'd prefer to shoot outdoors, but the selling area needs to be an area that is custom built in order for people to be able to make decisions really, really easily,

Andrew Hellmich:
I guess. So you're more for the idea of a client coming to the studio owner for a sale session rather than the photographer going to the client to sell?

Steve Saporito:
We do both. I teach both because different people are in different parts of their life and some people really love their customer service where they're going to. The client. One does mimic the other and the rules are exactly the same when it comes to selling, setting up the right product and making sure that it's a great experience for the clients no matter what. My personal preference is that they come to you because you can be a lot more efficient and have a lot more of your life back rather than spending an hour or 40 minutes, you know in traffic, going to see the client. They're doing that work and then they're coming to a custom built studio. That's my preference, but I teach both.

Andrew Hellmich:
Okay, nice. You already mentioned some words that are really want to pick your brains on things like rules, product experience,

Steve Saporito:
come back to those. I didn't even know that,

Andrew Hellmich:
but I'm curious because you serve and talk to and help clients around the world. Do you see a difference between, you know, photographers and clients in the U S as opposed to Canada as opposed to the UK as opposed to Australia?

Steve Saporito:
Everybody seems to believe that their particular country or their particular city is different to everybody else's and they hold that belief. But the reality is is that once you start implementing the basics of and understand what clients want in general, there's not a lot of difference. And then the sales averages that I'm seeing across the globe are very, very similar and relate directly to how much people are actually implementing. So, you know, averages, let's say that we're seeing portrait averages of three and a half thousand, that seems to translate to the U K as in three and a half thousand pounds or three and a half thousand dollars or three and a half thousand American dollars over Australian dollars. That seems to be the number that is fairly consistent across the globe. So, and we'll soon have more solid numbers for, I suppose Europe as well because we've only just started there, but it seems consistent. Everybody thinks that they're living in the worst part of the world or that their circumstances are completely different to everybody else. But in reality it's no different.

Andrew Hellmich:
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean what you said there, that number three and a half thousand dollars as an average or pounds. That's a big number. And I'm guessing if I put myself in the place of the listener, there are some listeners are going to be thinking, come on, you're just saying that because you're a coach, you're looking to get more clients three and a half thousand dollars. I haven't got a hope in hell of getting that as an average. What do you say to that person?

Steve Saporito:
Every single one of the people that comes to my workshops has the same line when they first start, but it's what's normal. It's what people seem to want to spend when they are buying wall art from you. And when you are giving them something that absolutely matters to them. And I think that's the biggest missing link that most people miss in any industry is helping people find out what matters to them. And when we do that, they do tend to spend, I mean, is it a big number? I mean, people spend three and a half thousand dollars on rubbish these days. Like I walked in to, um, where was it, Harvey Norman. I'm trying to translate it, but I don't need to because I'm in Australia. Um, and there were people buying washing machines at two and a half, $3,000, like for a washing machine. Really. Anyway, but I just think when we do focus on what people want and we're able to help them reconnect as a family, then three and a half thousand for them isn't a lot of money.

Andrew Hellmich:
So when you walk into a studio or you're listening to a photographer who's averaging, say, let's say $1,000 and they've got a pretty good business, they've got lots of leads coming in, they're doing shoes to averaging $1,000 per, let's make it real. Let's make it real. Most of the studios that I walk into are averaging about 500 to 600. All right, well, this particular studio is a little bit better. They're averaging a thousand. Okay. Most of them, like when you first walk in, what are you looking for? What faults are you looking for that's holding them back from getting that three and a half thousand dollar average? Usually

Steve Saporito:
when I walk in all the signs of why people are only spending that much money are out and obvious. So just looking at the product that they have on display in many cases is very confusing for a client. And in many cases we don't treat our product as if it's worth the money that we are charging for it. So it tends to be not well thought out at all. We tend to create ways for clients to minimize their spend with us. So for instance, I walked in to a studio the other day and they had nothing but family photos up because their clients ring up for family photos. Now the family photo is, you know, is the catalyst for them wanting to come in. But when they started displaying photographs of just one child or perhaps that child playing with its father or a collection of the family dog, that then incentivizes people to then buy something else other than the family photo.

Steve Saporito:
So although the catalyst is that they want a family photo, in most cases, most people will spend a lot more money and will spend more willingly on something that's more meaningful than the family photo. So the displays tend to give it away. Usually the placement of the product forces people to buy the cheapest product. So not being aware of where the primary is in your studio that people are attracted to. They tend to be filled with the cheapest products. And I can pretty much walk into any studio and say, okay, this is what you're selling all the time. Am I right? Usually yes, and it's purely because of how they place their product. So if we just switch some of the product around, the sales go up.

Andrew Hellmich:
It's that simple. Sometimes

Steve Saporito:
it's simple. It really is. Our business is really easy because we are an industry that focuses on helping people discover who is important to them and what's important to them. And when we do that and we're able to showcase that in some beautiful artwork for them, it's a no brainer. People just want it.

Andrew Hellmich:
Yeah. I'm going to come back to how you get to that point, but just staying with the topic of product, I mean I hear this from particularly from newer photographers that are looking to say that maybe a wedding photographer looking to get into portraits, they don't know what products to offer. What's the simplest, what's the easiest, what's the best thing to start with and where do we go from there?

Steve Saporito:
Well, I coach a lot of wedding photographers and in my head a wedding is nothing more than a really, really long portrait session really. And there's lots of opportunities that go with that. So with a lot of wedding photographers, what I find is that they're not making the forever session. Sorry, I have to translate that the engagement session important enough for them, for the client. In most cases. You know when somebody is doing an engagement session it's about, well what is it about, you're out there, Andrew. It's more about, you know, you getting to know me, you know, getting to know my style as a photographer as opposed to that first session, which sets the standard for the rest of the wedding. And the rest of the shoots that come after the wedding, all the portrait sessions that come with it, when it becomes about you helping this couple discover their why and helping them discover why is this the man you chose to spend the rest of your life with and vice versa for the groom, what is it about this woman that makes you want to spend the rest of your life with her?

Steve Saporito:
If the focus is helping people discover their why and the photos represent that, we then end up with a much more meaningful shoot for them as the engagement session. And they'll spend, you know, four or $5,000 on that, usually on average. So that then sets the precedents for everything else that comes after it and then planning out the display. So getting back to the product that you're talking about, really thinking about what you're displaying. So if in the forever session there is, you know a great collection that you could put together over groom and let's say he loves these cars, he spends a lot of time in his shed fixing things and you took some awesome photographs of that, some detailed shots and you were to have a display of that on the wall. Having that display entices a bride because usually you know half days and looking guy, the brides are quite attracted to that. If they want something like that, you then sold multiple pieces of artwork because a guy would never let her have something on display of him unless there is something of her app. So you've effectively sold that extra, you've sold an extra collection, haven't you? Well three because you've got him, you've got her and then they still don't have them as a couple. Yeah, effectively. Whereas if you just have couple photos up then that's all you're ever going to sell.

Andrew Hellmich:
Yeah. Well I don't want to make this a focus for wedding photographers only cause I really want to keep this to portrait photographers. I know what you're saying that a wedding photographer is ultimately a portrait photographer anyway. Yeah. And just let me tie down to product. It's a little bit more cause I want to come back to getting those kinds of shots and creating those feelings from the couples that has them wanting to spend more.

Steve Saporito:
Well, the rules are the same Andrew, if it's a family. So you know, having a great photograph of a dad or a collection of dad with kids where you'll learn some, you know, that then propels you to sell multiples rather than if you've just got a family photo or if it's just focused on mum and kids for the same reasons.

Andrew Hellmich:
Okay. Let me come back to that in a second. So this stick tightly to product for one second. A listener is asking about product saying the member's Facebook group, they want to know should they be selling canvas frame prints, acrylics, metal prints. That's what I'm talking about when I'm saying products.

Steve Saporito:
Ah, okay. I think more about the subject. What seems to sell the most at the moment. Uh, canvases and acrylic seem to sell the most. I warn people against having acrylics and metals make a decision between metals and acrylics because clients don't see the difference between the two and it just confuses them. They're too similar in a client's mind. So when we've taken one away, we seem to get better sales. So in most cases choose between your metal and your acrylic canvases. Just sell really, really well and either your acrylics or metals and obviously I advocate selling collections rather than single pieces.

Andrew Hellmich:
All right, so in just describe to the listeners aren't familiar with the term collections, what you're talking about there?

Steve Saporito:
So a collection is um, you know, I've tried and tested what seems to sell. So one of the ones that sell really well is a collection of five squares and middle one and this is a major piece obviously, so it's a 40 by 40 whether it be canvas or acrylic and it's surrounded by four, nine, 10 and a hubs by nine, 10 and a half. And that is one story, one subject, but it's five separate photographs, five separate pieces that are sold as a collection that may go, it's the perfect size to go over a three seater couch or a queen size bed or something similar

Andrew Hellmich:
to that. So you have won the big 40 by 40 hero image in the middle and then you have the two on either. Correct. That looks like a big rectangle when it's all said and done and hung above. Overall it's about 80 inches. Right. Okay. All right. So that's a collection. So it's interesting because I hear you recommending or suggesting say acrylics or metals, one or the other and also canvases. But if we're looking at the business side of things and taking, taking account cost of goods, doesn't canvas like kill acrylics and metal prints from a pricing point of view? Yes. It depends what you're buying from. Okay. Some labs

Steve Saporito:
so challenging, pretty much the same depending upon the finish. So you know, this is why I struggle with helping saying this is how much you should charge for anything. And you know, we should never say that anyway cause there's a lot of other factors that go into pricing, but depending upon where you, you get your product from, sometimes there's not a lot of difference between the canvas and the acrylics, so depending on where you get it from.

Andrew Hellmich:
Okay, cool. All right, that's great. Let's go back to getting those images to produce the kind of experience and I guess the product, the way you think of it for the clients that they want to spend, that kind of money that you're talking about. One of the interviews I did a long time ago was with Sue Bryce and one thing that she said that really struck a chord with me and stuck out was that once you have a location and a style and a recipe for a shoot that works, don't try and reinvent the wheel. Go and do the same thing every day for every client. That's how you build a successful business that you coming from the same viewpoint or is yours totally different?

Steve Saporito:
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I think your style is inherent in you and it's going to be consistent. When I had my studios, I hired, you know, a number of photographers and I just needed to look at the photo to know which photographer and which makeup artist worked on that particular job because I just, I knew their style. So I think it's going to be inherently consistent. I don't think you should reinvent the wheel every time, but I believe that we need to help clients find out their story and find out what matters to them and that's where the difference is going to be for every client. How that translates in photography is going to be up to that person's style and the way that you interpret it. But helping people find out what they have to celebrate in their family is probably the most important thing before you even pick up a camera, most people need to feel as though they're worth photographing before you physically pick up a camera. And a lot of the general public don't feel good enough to be photographed and that's where we need to start stepping up. What we do to help them feel valuable enough to be photographed.

Andrew Hellmich:
Okay. So does that happen then before the phone rings, before the lead comes into the business? Or is that after? Because if I get a lead at generally tells me, well, this person is interested in having their photo taken or their family photo taken. So when did we start to build up that?

Steve Saporito:
But from that point on, you would then make a phone call to them and ask them, okay, awesome. You decided you know that you want to have a photograph taken of your family. Why's now the right time for your family? Who's important to you right now, who you're planning on sharing this experience with and what's important to them about you? You know, why are they important to you right now?

Andrew Hellmich:
Does this approach or does it matter if this particular lead came from a promotion, say for a, whether it was for a free shoot, whether it was for a mother's day special, a Christmas and Easter special, whatever, or does it have to be an organic call where they've Googled family portrait photographer found your website and contacted you? Does that matter? No. Okay. So I can take the same approach no matter how the lead comes in. Yep. So you need to say

Steve Saporito:
[inaudible] in that regard. Yep. So he's right. You need to, you know, don't reinvent the wheel. You know, every single client goes through the same experience and then that's what helps you decide whether this is the right client for you. So working with them and helping them discover what's important to them about their family, they tend to be the clients that are going to enjoy the experience and want to work with you.

Andrew Hellmich:
[inaudible] what if someone calls and I just want to get photos of their children, you know, I don't need to be in any photos. I don't feel great at the moment. I guess similar to what you just said. Yeah, I just really want to get some photos of my kids before they get too old. Like how do we handle those kinds of conversations? Well, it's the same as,

Steve Saporito:
you're not going to reinvent the wheel grant, so let's, how many kids do you have? What are their names? And let's say one of them is Timothy. Let's talk about Timothy. What is it about Timothy that makes him unique? And normally by the time we take them through the experience, the parents are involved because they see how important it is.

Andrew Hellmich:
Right? So did I do that subconsciously or are you, are you teaching us how to do that? How to bring them in and how do I make them feel like they should be part of the shoot? So it's part of the process.

Steve Saporito:
It's part of the experience. And obviously for some parents they just want their kids done and that's okay. That just gives you a reason to market to them to get them in as a couple later on. But when you start talking about one of their children and help them celebrate each of their children individually, so then they can see what it is about each of those children that they cherish and love, then that's what's going to be celebrated because the idea is we're going to be creating an heirloom for each one of those children for them to feel as though they have been uniquely celebrated by people that matter to them.

Andrew Hellmich:
So what kinds of things are you looking to get out of? I'm assuming is most of the time it's going to be the mother at this stage. But like if you speak to, I guess a lot of the moms, if they've got young kids are going to say, well they, he loves computer games is in a fortnight. You know, we can either get him out of his room, we've got a, you've got to tell him to commit suicide in your computer game just to come and have dinner.

Steve Saporito:
Well what is it about that that he loves? And you need to take it deeper and you need to ask her, you know, if he was just spending quality time on a really good day, a day that just kept peek, he's captivating you, what would he be doing? What is that one thing that aggravates you about

Andrew Hellmich:
Timothy? So we're trying to get him out of that room out of the space where she normally sees him and I guess recreate that time when she sees him at his best. Step one is create a positive scene.

Steve Saporito:
So the first thing is we need to add that, you know, on a really good day when he's just being, you know, that beautiful little boy that he is because we've been conditioned in life to only focus on the negative and what's wrong. So step one is setting up a positive scene and asking it from a place of positivity on a really good day when he just gets to be himself that day when he's just captivating you, what would he be doing? Where would this be happening? And if it is, you know, I've had people tell me that you know, that they're playing with star Wars figurines and by the time we've had the conversation, they've had this realization that through playing star Wars they've shown to be, you know, they've had the realization that he's leader and that you know, they used to scoff at him. Playing with these figurines became important to them because they've actually taken the time to think about what's going on and the steps that he takes when playing that game that he's playing.

Steve Saporito:
So you know, they could be building Lego and you know, how does he build go, what is it about that that captivates you take me through his process of you know, what does he love the most about that? And in most cases they end up in a place where that child is so proud of what they've created. The first person they look to is either their mom and their dad and they're running to them. And you know, what is that moment like? What is so important to you about that? It's about helping people stop and really stop taking everything for granted and really analyze what that child is doing and beginning to reappropriate the gift that they've been given.

Andrew Hellmich:
Okay. So let's, I'm an I can picture this moment now. I mean, the way you described it with the Lego and running to mom or dad with pride, how do we convert that into photography sales?

Steve Saporito:
Well, I mean that just makes a shoot so easy. Throw some Lego on the ground and playing with Lego and you know, you come in and you, you know, during the phone call you're going to be asking her, you know, describe how he does this and he'll have a sequence, whether he puts all the colors together first and then he thinks about planning. What does that look like? What are those expressions you love the most as he's planning that? What does that remind you of as he's doing that? And then what does he do? How is he putting it together? Is he quite gentle or is he just, you know, and she's describing that to you, all of those emotional words, she then starts to use to describe this child and the meaning behind what he's doing will be obvious to you when you're photographing.

Steve Saporito:
So you know, if you use quite gentle, he's quite calculating. You need does plan at all and he's quite systematized then that's all the different pieces that you need to make a collection. [inaudible] no, I like that. So what about the listener is listening to you right now thinking, screaming at their radio or whatever. They are listening, however they're listening. Steve, Steve, I'm an outdoor shoot or they can't bring Lego to an outdoor shoot. What do I do? Why can't they never had a picnic and never brought toys to a picnic? Like why? Okay, and what's normal to that client? Like where do they normally do that? Like could they not do it in the sand? Like could they not do it anywhere? Like why and every family is going to be different and you know, we are photographing our family. So, you know, depending upon how that family lives and what's important to that family, we're then creating, you know, you're not going to be shooting Lego for every single family. Sure. So do you find photographers that you talk to are like me, where they're, they keep throwing out these [inaudible] I'm different and what about my clients don't do this? And I've never heard that ever, ever, ever.

Steve Saporito:
My clients won't want that, you know? But the reality is is that most people haven't taken the time to really soak up their children or really soak up that person that means something to them because nobody's bothered to ask them ever before. [inaudible] true. Most people are looking for issues or how to deal with someone. And as an industry, if we can start helping people celebrate what's important to them about those little kids that they love. And you know that relationship. You know, we had a dad come in a couple of months ago and he just got divorced, has a huge amount of guilt on his shoulders and at the end of the session said, I didn't even realize that my son ever saw me until the shoot. I didn't realize that he even noticed me as I walked into the room and the fact that you guys called him and he was able to answer questions about who I am as his father, this guy was, it couldn't even speak from the tears because he just came from a place of guilt and we don't stop and we don't take notice because life gets busy. But I think as an industry that our role is to help people reconnect as a family or reconnect as a father, reconnect as a, you know, with your children. And when we help people do that, what's the value of what we've just produced for them? You're talking about dads there and fathers and I remember the last time we spoke, maybe even the last couple of times we did interviews for the podcast.

Andrew Hellmich:
You were really adamant that the photographer had to get the father or both parents on the phone before the shoot. Do you still feel the same way? Yes, that's, that has to happen.

Steve Saporito:
Well, if you're creating an experience for a family and there is a father present and there is, you know, a mom present, then those two decision makers need to be part of the experience and those children need to know that each of them play their role in deciding and creating what was important to them about me as their son. [inaudible]

Andrew Hellmich:

that's important isn't it? Absolutely. It is important, but I know from experience that it's difficult to get dads on the phone and that want to talk and open up and you know, particularly about this stuff. They don't want to get deep on the phone with a photographer. They don't know.

Steve Saporito:
Usually it's the wives that are the gatekeepers, but once you get past the wife, the guys just are an emotional mess. They really are because nobody's ever given them permission. The guys are the easiest, easiest to talk to because they don't get that opportunity very often.

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Andrew Hellmich:
Yeah. For the listener who wants to learn more from you, I know you've mentioned you have a membership site, you also have your webinars and your offer one on one coaching. Let's say someone's thinking, listening to this and think, I want to be good at expos as an expo coming up. Can I come in and learn that aspect from you?

Steve Saporito:
Yes. There are specific courses in the membership just on expos and I run workshops, so we run workshops on bookings, on files on, and the size one covers how to create the right environment as well. And as far as building that tem or restructuring your design consultation space. So there is the membership and there's workshops and with the membership, if you have any questions, just ask in the membership and you get directed into the right place. It's easy.

Andrew Hellmich:
No, where's the best place or the easiest place to find where all this is hanging out on the web? Www dot Steve separator, education.com. All right, cool. I'll add links to that. And it's one P, isn't it? In separator and one T one P? Yes. Well I'll add links to those in the show notes. Yeah, I it, I get asked about photography business coaches by listeners occasionally, and I have been known and I don't know if you're going to be happy about this or not. I had been known to say, you are fantastic. You're amazing at what you do, but it's your way or the highway. Is that fair?

Steve Saporito:
For me? No. Well, no, because people have got to do what's feels right for them.

Andrew Hellmich:
Yeah. But isn't that then when you see someone that's not having success when you're trying to help them and they're not doing what you're suggesting,

Steve Saporito:
they're not going to ignore everything ever. And most people need to make a change. So you know, before anybody comes to a workshop, I interview them that can't just buy into a workshop and I need to make sure that the people coming already and that they have the right mindset for creating this change for themselves. So if people are not ready, then they can join the membership for a time in order to, you know, to start. Because what I don't want is for her to come in and waste their money. If they're not ready, then they're not ready. There's no point in me taking their money and knowing that they're not going to implement anything. Some people need to spend some time in the membership, they're just not ready for it yet. I've got lots of people that profess that they only implement 20% of what they've learned from me. You know? That's what's comfortable for them. That's fine. But they're still making tons of money and more importantly, tons of families happy. So you know, that's what's important.

Andrew Hellmich:
Yeah, that's awesome. Steve. It's been a real pleasure, mate. Thank you for getting up out of your bed. I know you're crook, you've been crooked as well as plain may. Again, the time just flies when I chat to you and we have to do this again. I'd love to dive deep into some of the, we've talked about, I know that you're already part of the PhotobizX premium members group, and we always hit you up there when we have questions. I'll have links to where people can find you in the show notes for today's episode, and I know that you're gonna be easy to reach there online as well. So yeah, mate, massive. Thanks. Love what you take. Love what you do. Thanks Steve. Awesome.

Steve Saporito:
Thank you so much, Andrew. It was really great. It didn't hurt at all.