326: Marcus Anthony – This is how you run a successful portrait photography business

326: Marcus Anthony – This is how you run a successful portrait photography business

Andrew Hellmich: Marcus Anthony has only been a photographer for a few short years, and he's built a six figure business very, very fast. He's been a PhotoBizX member for a while, but it was a conversation with photography business coach Bernie Griffiths, that had me reaching out to him for this interview. Bernie suggested, if I want to talk to a photographer who transformed his business by learning to shoot for sales. I have to speak to Marcus. I was told that he picked up a camera to try and make a bit of money on the side, he established himself very quickly as a wedding photographer, but has since moved to portraits. He's based in Wilmington, North Carolina, specializes in wall portraits for families, children and babies, and it sounds like his business is going from strength to strength. I'm looking forward to learning more, and I'm rapt to have him with us now. Marcus, welcome.

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, good to be here.

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, that was some rap that Bernie gave you. First of all, why the transition from weddings to portraits, and then we'll get into Bernie's influence, or unless that plays a role in that transformation?

Marcus Anthony: Oh, definitely, yeah. He makes it no secret that he thinks weddings are dying and it's just not a sustainable business model anymore like it used to be.

Andrew Hellmich: And is that why you changed from wedding to portraits, or were you already heading in that direction, yourself?

Marcus Anthony: No, no, no, no. I never even considered doing portraits until I spoke with Bernie, at least, you know, at the volume that I'm doing them now, weddings were just something I always struggled with. It was just sort of the note. You know, when I first started out, I opened my business in Los Angeles, and I reached out to a few photographers there to let me shadow them, because I didn't know anything about the business end or about professionally shooting it. So I got a few yeses, and so I tagged along. And you know, it seemed like from all the googling that I was doing, the research that I was doing, weddings were the way to make money. So it was just a no brainer for me, this is what I'm going to do. But I quickly realized how hard it was to get clients, let alone clients that would pay you enough to make any sort of living. So it was a struggle for the first couple of years there.

Andrew Hellmich: That's interesting, because when I did some research for this interview, I google you and your photography business, and I see a lot of wedding stuff, like, it's still there, it's appearing, you've got these great reviews, you've got lots of testimonials. Your work is fantastic. Like looking from the outside, it looked like things were going great.

Marcus Anthony: Well, yeah, you know, of course, that's the image you want to put out. We call it fake it till you make it. But you know, I was barely scraping by, barely. And I think a lot of photographers are in that same space, you know, barely scraping by. We love what we do. That's the reason I got into it. I did. It's always been a hobby since I was 12 years old. But at a certain point you have to take a hard look in the mirror and say, "Am I really making a living, or am I, you know, I mean, how long can I sustain this before I get burned out and then have to go back some horrible office nine to five thing", which is my why, by the way. You know, everyone talks about these fluffy, "Oh, you know, the family and all this stuff", which is great. You know, don't get me wrong, family is important. But my why is, I don't ever want to have a boss tell me what to do ever again in my life. That's it. It's that simple.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, are you married?

Marcus Anthony: I am, yes, you see..

Andrew Hellmich: You're still answering to a boss. I'm sure you are.

Marcus Anthony: Oh, I saw how you tied that in there, nicely done.

Andrew Hellmich: And I totally get that, so in that first two years, you know, when you were faking it, till you make it, you know, to put it in your word. Did you have a job? Did you have a boss at that time? Or were you full time with photography?

Marcus Anthony: No, I was fortunate enough back in Los Angeles. Well, I'm from Arizona originally, and a good long-time friend of mine approached me. He was a recovering alcoholic, and he went to rehab, and he had the search engine optimization business that he owned, and he said, "Hey, man, I'm going into rehab. I need someone to run my business while I'm in there. Are you in?" But I had to move to LA, that was the catch. So I was working at Chase Bank, which is a one of the largest banks in America, and, I guess, the world, and at the time, right out of college. So I was about 27 years old, and I just said, "Yes", I was working there for three years. Like you can already, you know, you can probably guess I didn't like answering to a boss, so I was just like, let's do it. So I threw everything into my car, drove to LA, and that was that. So we owned the search engine optimization business for about a year, until we sold it, and he brought me on as full partner, which was great. We were more hands off, just kind of management. You know, we talk a lot about search engine optimization in the photography industry, but by no means an expert, even though I owned a business that did that, so we sold it, and I was just kind of on easy street for about a year, just twiddling my thumbs in LA and kind of living that life. So got a little old. After a while, I got stir crazy, and I said, What can I do? So photography has always been a hobby, so I bought a camera, and that was that.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. I gotta ask you, like, when you decided to make this move to LA and take on the SEO business, I mean, were you married at that stage? If you were, what was your wife thinking?

Marcus Anthony: No, I was single. I had no real strings attached. Grown up in Arizona my entire life. I had never lived anywhere else, and it was just kind of, uh, I guess looking back, that was kind of a huge, if I had never done that, then I'd probably never be where I am right now. Kind of one of those snowball things, weird.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, so you met your wife in LA.

Marcus Anthony: I did, yeah, we're mutual friends playing tennis.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. What a story. It's awesome. Okay, so you kick off the photography business after having a year off and things look like they're going well. You mean, you explain there that they're not as good as what they might have looked on the outside. What you know, flicked the switch that led you to go to portraits.

Marcus Anthony: So that would be Mr. Bernie Griffiths, who most of your listeners probably know him at this point, if you don't, check them out. So I was listening to PhotoBizX for quite a while before I heard about Bernie Facebook System and some of the interviews that he's done and all that. So yeah, I was taking little tidbits here and there, trying to apply it to weddings and trying to do the marketing. But it was just tough for me. I could never crack that nut, so to speak. So I was doing okay. I think the most weddings I ever shot in a year was 12, and I was charging between 2000 - 3500 for a wedding. So, I mean, I was like poverty level, barely scraping by. And luckily, I live in North Carolina, so the cost of living is not super high. But anyway, so yeah, so I listened to a few of Bernie's podcasts with you. And, you know, checked out his website, and I just said, you know, I need a coach. I need someone who's been there before, and he seemed like a real straight shooter. He'll tell you, well, you know, I mean, he'll just tell you flat out how he feels and how it is. And, you know, the guy has 40 years of experience, so he knows what he's talking about. And I just decided I'm going to listen to everything this guy has to say, like he's my own personal deity, and I'm just going to kind of laser focus on his strategies, and just not listen to anyone else for a year and just see how it goes. Because it can't get any worse.

Andrew Hellmich: I love it.

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, about the first month in, not even a month in, he's like, "All right, we need to start doing some portraits. All we have, you know, like you said, it can't get any worse, so let's just try it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but let's try it". So I did blindly followed, and the rest is history.

Andrew Hellmich: So at this point here, Marcus, were you already in North Carolina?

Marcus Anthony: Yeah. So I moved, not even six months after officially opening an LLC in Los Angeles. I moved with my then girlfriend, Katie, now wife, to North Carolina.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, all right, so you start doing portraits under Bernie's guidance and like, does it just flourish immediately or talk me through that process, that early period?

Marcus Anthony: So yeah, I have to say, it really quickly just blew up. You know, the best source for Bernie Facebook Ads is the man himself. So he knew all the little tweaks that we could make with the copy and all that, you know, the putting the right photo out there. So, you know, I didn't have to spend a lot of time tweaking things, because you kind of knew exactly how to pivot if an ad wasn't going great. So I did put out, I think my first ad was, was maybe mothers and daughters or children three to 10 or something like that, just something real basic. And I don't know if I just got lucky with my market or what, but it exploded. I mean, I think I put 25 or $50 on the ad and got like, 100 leads or something. I mean, it was dirt cheap, and I was just so overwhelmed with all the leads that I got. So I had no systems in place for booking people in, no deposits, you know, nothing. It was all totally new to me. So I had to figure all that stuff out on the way, and I'm still figuring that stuff out. But in terms of number of lead? Yeah, it was pretty immediate.

Andrew Hellmich: That is so good. So I'm guessing that if any other photographer goes through this, and you know, I'm thinking of the listener here, they would be stressing that they don't have a website that features portraits, they don't have a portrait page, they don't have portrait pricing. Did you have all those things in place before you ran this ad?

Marcus Anthony: Yes, I did. I was fortunate to where I spent a lot of time on the back end, focusing on all that stuff, SEO, social media, a really strong web presence, all that stuff to try and make it seamless. When someone Googles 'Wilmington, North Carolina portrait photographer', I pop up and they hopefully they contact me. So in a sense, it's good that I had all that in place, but I strongly believe that you really don't need that to have a thriving photography business. It's so easy to focus on that because then you're not talking to people on the phone or whatever a lot of us are uncomfortable with. But really you need such a, a minuscule web presence to book people in. It's not even funny. All you need is a Facebook page, a way for them to fill out a form and a phone, and you're in business.

Andrew Hellmich: So why did you have all those things in place? Was that in anticipation of shooting more portraits? Did you start to get that together once you started talking to Bernie, or did you go to North Carolina? I'm thinking, "Okay, I've got to expand into portraits as well."

Marcus Anthony: No, I had none of that. I had no idea portraits were on the horizon until I started speaking with Bernie. The web thing that I had in place was more wedding based. So I quickly just copied the template that I had for my wedding stuff and just slowly put up a few portrait images that I was taking from the families that I was getting from the portrait ad. But you know, I talked to these people on the phone now, or at least, I have someone that does that for me now. What we can get that into that in a second. But so when she's asking, like, "Hey, have you been to Marcus's website?" 50% of the people, or maybe even more, say, "No", you know, I scroll through your Facebook stuff. So I didn't need again, I didn't need a website or a link to send people to. I just needed my Facebook presence, and that was good enough to get started at least.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow, I'm still curious here. Now I'm not sure how I'm understanding this correctly. So I understand you had a website with weddings and everything else. So when you actually ran your first Bernie Style Facebook Ad, did you have a full section on your website devoted to portraits?

Marcus Anthony: No, I did not. All I did was I had a jot form. Are you familiar with that?

Andrew Hellmich: Yes

Marcus Anthony: Okay, so jot form is basically a, you know, it's a way to collect information from people. So that's the link that I was sending them to. And I just had a very crude landing page, if you will. And you know, it was just saying, "Hey, this is what our", it was just repeating the copy in the Facebook ad. Real simple. Had maybe had a photo, same photo that I used in the ad, and then it just said, this is what we're doing. Enter here, submit.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome. Okay, so your website developed from the shoots that you got from that Bernie style ad.

Marcus Anthony: Right.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Okay, got it. I want to dive more into the marketing and advertising side of things, particularly what you're doing now, but is the way you were shooting then, is it different to the way you're shooting today?

Marcus Anthony: Yes, absolutely. So through Bernie's guidance and just kind of my own intuition, you sort of figure out that at a certain point you don't necessarily need to be breaking the mold every time you go out and shoot a family or a child or any sort of portrait, you start to learn what poses sell, what expressions sell. And you know, you kind of got it at a certain point. You got to look at it as a business and set up certain systems in order to maximize the money that you can make, because that's the whole point of being in business. So with that, in the beginning, I was definitely shooting trying to just push my limits, learn different lighting techniques, all this kind of stuff. And so it took a long time. I'm still realizing that you need to shoot with sales in mind. You don't need to shoot for necessarily getting the best image. I mean, you've interviewed plenty of photographers that you know. They'll even admit it themselves. They're not the best technical artists by any means, but they're making way more money than people who have way more talent.

Andrew Hellmich: It's true.

Marcus Anthony: And the reason is they know what sells. So yes, I'm definitely focusing more on just staying consistent with my lighting, staying consistent with the lenses that I'm using, just you want to create a cohesive catalog for them to look at, so that they can narrow down. You don't want to make decision fatigue, like have them thinking in the back of their mind. "Okay, I like this one, but I like this one too.", and it could be like almost the same photo, but maybe you just edited the other one differently. You don't want the client trying to have a hard time taking between those two images. You want them to clearly know which one they like better and move on, so that you can, you know, focus on the sale and not on the decision of choosing the photos. Does that make sense?

Andrew Hellmich: It does so. If you have two similar looking photos in your gallery, they both look pretty good. You'll delete one yourself.

Marcus Anthony: Absolutely. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Don't even show it to the client. Don't let them decide. You decide.

Marcus Anthony: I decide, yeah. And no one has a problem with that ever.

Andrew Hellmich: I like it. Can you talk to me and the listener about how you would define or what you're looking for or what you see, or how do you recognize a saleable image for a client?

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, sure. So it's all about the eyes. That's probably where I'd start. It's so easy to kind of get trapped in that looking for that kind of different image. But you have to understand that your clients are, this is all new to them. You know, they're not doing this every day like we are. So it's easy to kind of get trapped in that artistic thing looking for, like something new, something fresh for us to satisfy that deep black hole that we all artists have that never gets filled when you're trying to do something artistic and push the boundaries of photography, but if you're trying to make money, you want to focus on the expression, the connection and the eyes, and that really goes in hand in hand with the expression. It's almost the same thing. So you have to make sure that your eyes are showing, that the camera can see your eyes, that the catch lights are there, that they don't have the dead eyes, which is no catch light. So if your lighting is too high, you want to lower it down. That light, their eyes need to sparkle. They need to sparkle. There's no excuse not to have your eyes sparkle. You take as many images until that kid is looking at the camera, and then the connection so that you know, having head close to each other in an image. If there's a little boy who's three years old and a hulking dad who sticks to, you don't want to sit them next to each other on a bench, the connection, it just you won't feel as close. You won't feel as personally invested in that image as if the dad picks up the boy and holds them right next to its face?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I totally get that. And the reason I ask you this is because when I go to your portfolio on your website, I mean, it's so obvious that people would buy the images that you're showing. I can see the faces of the kids in 98% of the photos that you show. I can see that's why parents would buy them. They're the photos I would buy of my kids.

Marcus Anthony: That's good here. I'm doing something right. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of that stuff is, you know, we're all guilty of not updating our portfolio and being as ruthless as we need to be about culling that. So a lot of that stuff I haven't updated in maybe six months to a year, and a lot of that has to do with me realizing that your website is not as important as we're all taught that it is. But that being said, those photos, even though, you know, they're definitely saleable images, you can always learn more. You can always improve on posing and things like that. To you know, because we all want to improve. You know, my average right now is around 14, $1,500 I want it to be $2,500 and I believe the way to do that, the way to do that is with refining the quality of your photography, and that includes all aspects, posing, lighting, all that kind of stuff. So I'm always improving.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, sure. Let me just ask you about a couple of photos that you have in your portfolio right now. And I'm guessing that you know, when the listener hears this, like some of these might be different or changed, but the very first image in your children or child portraits gallery is actually different from a lot of your other works. It's a girl playing the violin, and there's music sheets sort of flying everywhere that like they've been thrown up in the air and cascading down.

Marcus Anthony: Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: So is that the kind of image that you know you will get at the end of the shoot? Is that you satisfying your creative itch or are you trying to create something specific for your client there?

Marcus Anthony: Yeah. So it's a bit of all three. So that image was taken quite a while ago, and this is, again, this is me evolving into following my own advice, you know, creating something consistent, because I know in that particular shoot that you're talking about, we also did a totally different outfit with totally different lighting, a lot more commercial, a lot more high key, you know, happy, smiley, whereas that image is a lot more dramatic. So one of the things that is great about Bernie's Facebook Ad thing is that you can put out anything you want to shoot, and at the same time scratch that artistic itch that you have and make money at it. So, like, that particular thing was part of a charity project that we did. We did a book project. So we put a Facebook ad out there that said, "Wanted", I think it was children with musical instruments. So the Facebook ad said something like, "For only $50 participation fee, all of which goes to the charity." And I believe it was a child abuse charity, a local child abuse charity, "You can be part of this exciting project." So basically, they pay $50 which is a donation to the charity. They come in and we shoot them in whatever way we want. And then that particular time, it was kids with musical instruments. But I had free reign on how I wanted to shoot that. So I knew in my head, I wanted to create a dramatic image with musical sheets flying all around, almost like something out of a dream, of like a child's dream. So that particular image was to satisfy a creative itch that I had. Is that answering your question?

Andrew Hellmich: It is. So I'm curious, though. So this is a creative, great shot, but I'm curious now, did the family, did the parents buy this image, or do they like it and buy something where the girls looking at the camera?

Marcus Anthony: That particular one they absolutely loved.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Marcus Anthony: I think the reason for that was because we also did more, you know, happy, smiley, saleable stuff as well. So if I remember correctly, and I who knows if I do, but if I remember correctly, that family purchased a digital package. So it's not like they bought a massive canvas of that one where she's playing the instrument and then, you know I'm saying so they didn't favor one over the other. They just kind of..

Andrew Hellmich: Bought the package, the whole lot. Okay

Marcus Anthony: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: So when you're shooting today, are you as concerned about getting those creative shoots for yourself, or is it more about getting the saleable in? Like, are you running a business, or you're a photographer, or are you both?

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, I would say more so than ever. I'm a business owner. Definitely evolving more and more that way. And then, you know, every so often I'll catch myself, I'm like, "Man, I haven't made art in a long time." So if I see a kid or a person or a family that comes in and has just kind of that look, you know what I'm talking about. They're just, they just have an interesting look. Then I'll go out of my way to shoot something for myself, knowing that maybe I won't show it to the parents, or, you know, I'll just kind of do one or, you know, just, I don't want to make a big deal about that particular image, because it kind of interrupts the flow a bit. But I can't help myself. You know, I have, just like everyone else, you know, we want to create something cool. So if someone comes in with that look, I'm going to do something, but I keep the focus more so than ever on happy, smiley, saleable images.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice. All right, let me stay with the same topic of conversation, but switching genres. When I look at your family gallery, you know, there's some really interesting I mean, there's some stock, standard, saleable, great images at the top, but I scroll down, I've got ones, you know, with dad in his suit, mum wearing a sunny's on the phone, that little kids playing the violin in the front, sitting on a skateboard. Then there's another one, you know, with a Christmas tree and a kid playing, someone with a fishing rod. Are these stylized shoots that have come from an ad? Or is this you being creative for the family?

Marcus Anthony: Most of them are stylized shoots that have come from an ad. So that particular genre, or whatever you want to call it, was families on the couch. So this was Bernie's idea. He just wanted to have the families come together on the couch. And I don't really remember how the idea came about, where everyone would kind of be doing their own thing, but obviously it did. So that was part of a Facebook ad, and with that, you can really only do one or two poses. It doesn't make sense to photograph the children in those outfits with those props alone. It only kind of makes sense to do it as a whole group. So those families that did come in and do those shoots, it was like one or two shots like that, and then the rest was bright outfits, happy smiles, you know, less stylized, more commercial.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so they'll actually do you'll have a change of props and scenes and clothing. Everything's changed for the second half, or the three quarters of the shoot.

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, we'll usually do that. The crazy one, the family's on the couch one right away. Just get it out of the way. And then, so that really only takes 10 minutes, and then the rest of the time. Usually, my shoots are between 45 minutes to an hour. The rest of the time we're just focusing on, you know, the family of the group and individual shot.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so talk to me about that. Do the families then come in feeling cheated or like they're getting, I don't want to say scammed, you know, tricked, however you want to label it, because they've come in, they've answered an ad for these stylized fun shoots. Next thing they're getting changed and you're doing, let's call them traditional family portraits.

Marcus Anthony: No, not at all, because I qualify my clients over the phone couple of times before they come in. So we don't do in studio consultation. We've tested that, and it didn't really work that well for us. Nobody showed up to the consultation. So we just do stuff over the phone. So they're well informed. Like, "Hey, you know we're going to do one where everyone is kind of doing their own thing, able to express their individual personalities, but still together on the couch. And then can you please also bring an extra outfit, a little bit more casual, which will do the majority of the shooting", so there no, no one's getting tricked by anything.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, great. So when they come to the sales appointment, they know they're going to see photos from the stylized shoot, plus the more traditional family photos.

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, and that's just for that one ad. So this is my entire business model. You can basically reinvent yourself every time you put a Facebook ad out there. It's really, really quite awesome.

Andrew Hellmich: That's what I love. It's so good. Okay, before we talk about the ads, and I'm guessing, I'm hoping, that you also use other forms of advertising and marketing. But before we go down that road, you mentioned back in the day, you said that was when I was doing digital files or digital packages. Are you still doing that? Because I get the sense that your focus is on wall portraits today?

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, I am still offering digital files, just because I think you just have to test and measure. So this is something we're constantly just tweaking and testing and just seeing what works best. So currently, yes, we're still offering digital files, a package of five starts at 1350 and it just kind of goes up from there. But like you said, we are focusing 100, a 1,000% on physical product. So I only offer two finishes. I have a an acrylic and a canvas, and we have a folio box option, and a couple collages that are for the wall as well, like made out of acrylic with multiple images, and then that's it, and just digital file. So we really only have four products, give or take.

Andrew Hellmich: So do you have a most popular package that you know the most people gravitate towards?

Marcus Anthony: No, everything's ala carte. I mean, you could consider the digital files are a package, but only in terms of quantity. So I don't have, like, a bundle where you can get a canvas and, you know, a folio box. Or is that kind of what you're asking?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah, because you mentioned you have an average of about, I think you said 1400 to $1,500 I'm just curious how your clients get to that number.

Marcus Anthony: Okay, so yes, the majority of what we sell, and it's a very light majority. It's not like an overwhelming this is what we sell all the time type of thing. But we're selling a lot of medium sized wall portraits in acrylic and canvas. So that means 20 inches and 30 inches. So a lot of times I'll use digital files as leverage, because it is 2019 and people want digital files, and I realize that, so maybe I'll say something like, "Hey, we're running a special this week. We're we include your digital files from your shoot, if you purchase a 30 inch or larger portrait today."

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And then they get all the digital files from the shoot, or they get five, or just the ones they're ordering in their package or their to the wall.

Marcus Anthony: So we're testing different ways. Lately, it's been all of them, but now I'm going to try. Maybe you can get 20 files for half off if you purchase the 30 inch. It's all about testing and measuring. Constant testing and measuring, find out what works. I want to raise my average, and these little, tiny tweaks are the way to figure out how to do that.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, love it. I love it….

 
Sign up to listen to the Premium Version at https://photobizx.com/premium-membership
 

Andrew Hellmich: Mate, this has been awesome. You've been fantastic. It's been so good to hear about your business. I'm so glad that I chased you up for this interview and you agreed to do it, mate. So thank you so much. Where's the best place for the listener to see more of your work and connect with you if they want to?

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, just Google Marcus Anthony Photography, there's a, you know, a billion channels that you can get there. My website is marcusanthonyphoto.com, Instagram handle is at marcusanthonyphoto. Yeah, Google though.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, yeah, I did the same, and they all came up on that first page of Google. So I'll add links to all these in the show notes anyway. Mate, just before I let you go, have you ever had an embarrassing moment or a stuff up that you're happy to share?

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, pretty recently. Well, last November, I believe it was, I did an ad for families in their home. So this is where I would go to their home and photograph them, and, you know, in the comfort of their house. So I did that with this, this mother and her son and her husband, and this was a big deal to her, because she had just recently lost a baby. She had the baby, but it wasn't quite stillborn. It was like alive, but it was super tiny, and just it didn't survive, basically. So she had all these photos from the hospital, and, like, you know, little trinkets and stuff that her family sent her with her name. Her name was Emory. And so it was, like, super emotional for this mother, for me to go there and do this. She wanted a photo on the bed of her lying on the bed with like surrounded by all the photos of her baby girl and some emotional stuff. So I went to her house. I did the shoot. And this has never happened before. It hasn't never happened since. But of course, this I got back, I thought I loaded the photos onto my computer, on the Capture One. Comes time for me to edit, you know, the viewing sessions come in close, time to edit the photos. Can't find the photo.

Andrew Hellmich: Oh shi*t

Marcus Anthony: Yes, they never uploaded, whatever. So I'm frantically Googling, you know, recovery software. So I plug in all my memory, nothing. You cannot get the files back. So I had to make the worst phone call ever. I called her. I was straight up. I said, "Hey, I have some really bad news. Files are gone. I'm so sorry. It's totally my fault. I'd like to offer you $1,000 credit towards anything you'd like to buy from your session. On me, no pressure. I'm sorry. So we have to do it again." So we did it again, and it was fine. She was totally cool about, I could totally hearing her voice, though, when I first told her, she was not pleased, but she got over it. We did it again. It was wonderful, and it was all good. So yeah, good time, though.

Andrew Hellmich: I can imagine now, I've had to make a similar phone call to a bride once. I won't go into that now, because I'll start crying. But man, I feel your pain. So I guess the big lesson, or the message for the listeners, if you do make a mistake, just be up front and come clean it with a client. I guess that was the best thing that you did.

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, there was no other choice. I mean, yeah, that is 100% the lesson, agreed, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: And did it hurt given the $1,000 credit, or you were more than happy to give that?

Marcus Anthony: No, no, I should have just, I could have done more, and I felt so bad. Uncharted territory for me that has never happened. I didn't know what to do, but I think I did the right thing.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, awesome. Man, I didn't know where that story was going to go. Terrible. There's not a good way to finish. Marcus again, mate, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure, and you've shared a ton. I know the listeners are going to get so much from what you had to share. So thank you so much.

Marcus Anthony: Yeah, happy to share, man. I appreciate the time. Thank you.